Developmental Prospects at Defensive Tackle
by Son of a Newton on Feb 18, 2012 10:42 PM EST
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Over the course of the 2011 Carolina Panthers season the Panthers were gashed in the run game by opposing teams, ultimately causing multiple defeats despite an otherwise strong outing by the Panthers. The suspected culprit of such collywobbles were the young, inexperienced, and outmatched Defensive Tackles, headlined by Rookies Sione Fua, Terrell McClain, and other youngsters, Andre Neblett, Jason Shirley, and Frank Kearse. Scores of Panther Fans have vindicated the Panther DT's for the defensive woes last season, and even more are vociferating the selection of a Defensive Tackle in the first round of the upcoming NFL Draft. However, the more prudent measure may be to let our young defensive tackles progress and hone their techniques for another season before pulling the trigger on a potential blue chip defensive tackle. Another possible scenario could be reinforcing the depth at Defensive Tackle with a couple of developmental prospects found late in the NFL Draft or via free agency.
This Defensive Tackle class is without a clear headliner, or an elite prospect worthy of early selection. Even so, this DT class is backloaded with potential gems who could selected in the closing rounds of the Draft this season. Most of the Panther Defensive Tackles are young guys who have exhibited smatterings of success and athleticism during their careers, and following this mold, I've chosen a couple of guys to look in to.
Kheeston Randall: 6'5 297 lbs. Projected 5.07 40 yard dash, 33 inch arms
Randall attended Texas for his college career, and was hyped to be a 2nd Day pick before the past season. Randall finished last season with 31 Tackles, 4 TFL's, and 1 Sack. His low numbers could be attributed to his assignments; Randall was charged with eating up blockers at Texas, rather than penetrating gaps, something that could be seen more of in the future. At the Senior Bowl, Randall was consistently disruptive, and made it into the backfield on several occasions. Randall is agile, and powerful, rarely being moved off of the line by a single lineman. Kheeston has also been labeled as a good character guy with a high motor, constantly volunteering in the community. Currently, Walterfootball.com labels Randall as a 3-5th round prospect.
DaJohn Harris: 6'3 308lbs. Projected 5.06 40 yard dash, 32 5/8 inch arms
Harris played his college ball at USC (or U$C depending on how you look at it :^)) racking up 22 Tackles, 7 TFL's, 1.5 sacks, and 6 passes batted down this past season. Harris exhibited quick burst and good instincts during his time in Southern California, showing fluidity and awareness in recognizing plays and batting the ball down at the line of scrimmage. Anyhow, Harris has been criticized as having a weak motor, and not giving 100% effort all game. During the East-West Shrine Game Harris shredded through blockers with his rip move and ensured his spot as the best player on the West Squad. Walterfootball.com lists Harris as a 5-6th round pick, while CBSSports.com lists him as a 2-3rd round pick.
USC DT #98 Da'John Harris Highlights 2010 (via CaliforniasGold)
Travian Robertson: 6'4 305 lbs. Projected 4.99 40 yard dash, 32 1/2 inch arms
Travian attended USC (the other one) and grew up in Laurinburg North Carolina. Last season, Robertson collected 49 Tackles, 8 TFL's, and 2.5 sacks. Robertson has very quick feet and raw power, and exhibited his abilities sparingly during his college career. During the East-West Shrine Game, Robertson dominated opposing offensive linemen, and showed good pad level. However, coaches were disappointed in Robertson's hand placement and technique, citing him for being sloppy and fundamentally unsound. With a little coaching, and seasoning, Robertson could become a solid NFL Lineman. Walterfootball.com lists Robertson as a 5-6th round pick, while CBSSports.com has him as a 7th-FA player.
Travian Robertson DT #42 South Carolina Highlights (via GHSquaredSports)
DeAngelo Tyson: 6'2 306 lbs. Projected 5.02 40 yard dash, 33 3/8 inch arms
Tyson played college ball at Georgia, and amassed 20 Tackles, 3.5 TFL's, and 1.5 Sacks. Tyson showcased good push and pad level, and was able to disrupt the pocket on several occasions. Frankly, there's not a lot of info on the internet about Tyson, neigh any recent highlight videos. Per reports, Tyson did have a good game against Florida this past season, and racked up 16 tackles against Georgia Tech during the 2010 season. Tyson was a highly touted recruit coming out of college, and may be viewed as a good developmental tackle. Walterfootball.com classifies Tyson as a 7th rounder or an UDFA, CBSSports concurs.
Jaye Howard: 6'3 292 lbs. Projected 4.99 40 yard dash, 32 1/8 inch arms
Howard spent his college career at Florida, and was viewed as an early round prospect coming into the season. This past year, Howard accumulated 65 Tackles, 10 TFL's, and 5.5 Sacks. Howard is extremely athletic, and has very nice lateral speed that allows him to move across the line of scrimmage fluidly. During his time at Florida, Howard exhibited explosion and good penetration skills that helped him flush the QB out of the pocket. Despite that, Howard doesn't have the raw power needed out of top round pick. Howard also was very aggressive, being caught jumping offsides in a hard count multiple times. During the Senior Bowl, Howard didn't make much of an impact, and failed to make a lasting impression. Many analysts believe that Howard has worlds of talent, yet he hasn't equivocated his athleticism into production. Walterfootball.com has Howard listed as a 5-6th round pick, while CBSSports.com cites Howard as a 6-7th round pick.
Jaye Howard (via BrownsOrBust)
(Players I like, but didn't have the wherewithal to write about: Akiem Hicks, Nicholas Jean Baptiste, and Marcus Forston.)
In Conclusion, the Panthers best option might be to pass over a raw Michael Brockers in the first round, and select a DT later in the draft, and further develop the young DT's already on the roster. Picking up a prospect with potential, a la Randall, Harris, Robertson, Tyson, and Howard allows the coaching staff to further evaluate the talent at hand, and perhaps cultivate a future starter at the Defensive Tackle position. The draft is full of players with talent who haven't had experience playing in a pro style system, or in a professional weight training acumen, and with the proper coaching and exposure these players can mature into solid contributors in the NFL.
Sound off CSR Community, Do you think these guys can be developed into mainstays for the Panthers? Which late round DT's do you have your eye on? What do you think about taking a Defensive Tackle in the First Round?
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Taking a dt in the first doesnt fit bpa
Some of these guys could turn out pretty good.
I would allow the DT's to develop. I'm hopeful we'll see some improvement in McClain and Shirley. I expect Fua to take another season to develop.
Which is to say I wouldn’t be taking a DT in the 1st or 2nd unless he was athletic enough to swing to the outside. I would focus on the DE position and create a mismatch that other teams would have to gameplan for.
I really like the scenario of Coples in the first, assuming BAMF thinks he’s the real deal. Follow that up with a ball-hawking CB in the draft. Minnifield, Norman, Trumaine Johnson or Cliff Harris would be my desired targets for a CB.
I would consider Kheeston Randall in the 5th if he was there. However, I would also consider Akiem Hicks there as well.
Welcome to the Cam Cave
I agree. Improving the pass rush would help all facets of our defense.
And adding more talent to the Secondary should be a priority this offseason.
I don't want to draft Michael Brockers or Devon Still. Chris Kreider is the future.
by Son of a Newton on Feb 19, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with this
But may have shot my DT comment wad in the latest post “The Carolina Panthers Defensive Drop-off: Shown in Numbers” I mentioned in that comment section that if we go DT, we should go later because of what we actually gained having our rookies forced to play the starting role all season.
by Windy City Panther on Feb 19, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
I love Kheeston Randall!
At the end of the day, our word is all we have.- Somebody probably before I said it yesterday
The Panthers Don't Lack Quantity At DT, They Lack Quality
The Panthers blessed to have 4 NT’s who might make the 53 man roster, but cursed with unknown quality.
Ron Edwards – A free agent signing last year, but didn’t play a down. He’s the only veteran DT, and he can probably play both DT spots.
Sione Fua – He was a 3rd round pick last year, so he probably will survive the cut.
Frank Kearse – A 7th round pick of the Dolphins last year, who played better than Fua.
Jason Shirley – He’s the biggest of the NT’s (340+), but has never been more than an end of the roster backup. He only played in 4 games for the Panthers last year, recording 4 tackles, 2.5 of them sacks, but for only 4 yards lost in total.
Non NT’s:
Andre Neblett – He was an UDFA in 2010, and was the Panthers most effective DT last season, though only playling around half the season.
Terrell McClain – He was last years #65 pick, but his production was disappointing at best.
The Panthers will only carry 5 DT’s on the 53 man roster at most, and possibly only 4 DT’s. So, which 1 or 2 of these DT’s will you cut? Then who will be the 3rd that they cut, to make room for any DT they might draft?
What the Panthers need at DT is a big run stuffer and a good pass rusher, but this years draft doesn’t have a DT who can do both, even in the top 10. As things now stand, the quality pass rushers and DT’s only go as deep as the 2nd round. The Panthers only have 2 picks in the first 3 rounds, so they can’t fill all their needs for a run stopping/pass rushing DT, NT, pass rushing DE, #2 CB, WLB, LOT, and WR. So their best compromise 2nd round pick (if they are lucky enough that he’s still available) might be DT/DE Jared Crick (6-4, 285, 4.82-40). Crick is the best pass rushing DT, with 9.5 sacks in 2009 and again in 2010, and a better run defender at DE.
The only “developmental DT” the Panthers should consider is either a 7th round pick or UDFA, who can easly slip through to the 2012 Practice Squad. Why draft a DT any higher only to lose him to another team when they try to slip him through to the Practice Squad?
An interesting developmental NT might be Eddie Brown (6-0, 315, 4.79-40) of Texas A & M, because of the great speed for his size (if he can prove it on his Pro Day). He isn’t ranked by many draft experts, 719th by nfldraftscout, so he should easly slip through waivers to the Practice Squad. Here are his stats:
2010 – 25 tackles – 11 solo tackles – 5 TFL’s – 1.5 sacks
2011 – 29 tackles – 12 solo tackles – 4 TFL’s – 3 sacks
What Should The Top Of The Panthers Draft Look Like?
The Panthers have to take CB Morris Claiborne if he falls to them, but I feel he’s the only CB good enough to be taken with the 8th or 9th pick, but he’s probably gone before that. Likewise, OT Riley Reiff and WR Justin Blackmon, but improving the pass rush is the greater need. So here are my top 3 picks (Claiborne could substitute for Ingram if he falls).
1. DE/OLB Melvin Ingram
2. DT/DE Jared Crick
4. OLB Bruce Irvin, but if he’s gone Terrell Manning
I dont agree with some of your draft philosophy
but i agree on your take of our DTs. We have a bunch of young players who still need to develop and if we would have to cut some of them if we took a DT. I like some of the DTs in this draft at various spots, but who do we let go. Shirley and Neblett played the best last year, McClain and Fua were both 3rd round rookies, and Edwards is out only veteran presence. Thats already 5 DTs we already also have Kearse. We will likely only keep 4 or 5. like i said, i really like some of the guys who we could take but we would have to also get rid of these guys as well. so who do you get rid of between the 2 most productive, 2 3rd round rookies, and the only Vet?
I wanna be the very best, like no one ever was
If i had to get rid of 2 guys
i would probably go with Kearse and Fua. Fua was by far the least productive of the bunch and was a major reach at the bottom of the 3rd anyway. I would be fine going in with McClain and Neblett at DT and Edwards and Shirley at NT, plus who ever we pick up.
Guys i like (at their respective draft positions) Still (mid 1st), Akiem Hicks (4th), Kheeston Randall (4th)
I wanna be the very best, like no one ever was
Good points; if possible, we might have to stash a 7th/UDFA guy on the Practice Squad.
It’s also possible that Ron Edwards might be a cap casualty this offseason with the limited cap available, thus opening up a roster spot for a late round DT.
I don't want to draft Michael Brockers or Devon Still. Chris Kreider is the future.
by Son of a Newton on Feb 19, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Cricks a monster and space eater
How wouldn’t at 6’6 290lbs but what about the Canadian prospect Akiem Hicks 6’4 324lb, He is quick athletic shined in the East/West Shrine game
He's not a space eater.
He’s a gap-shooting DT that’s probably best suited as a 3-4 end.
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by Jake Humphrey on Feb 19, 2012 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
Like both Randle and Howard
I don’t see instant starter in either of them, but I do see quality depth. At the present our depth is weak at best. I am high on Kearse and Neblett. Not so high on McClain, Fua, Shirley, and the rest on the roster. An upgrade (Brockers, Poe, Still) would be nice, but I would take a flier on one of these guys in a heartbeat…I also have some interest in Marcus Fortson, if he slips to round 4 or 5.
Good article.
Whilst there isn’t an elite DT in this draft (at least not a polished one – Brockers athletically is elite) there’s a whole host of ‘good’ DTs – either ones that have been polished into good DTs or ones that have the athletic ability to be good DTs.
I’d certainly look to pick one up if I was in the Front Office. We need all the help we can get at the position.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Don't need another so so DT.
We spent a pair of 3rd rounders last season on developmental DT’s. If we go DT it needs to be Brockers or Still for an upgrade at the position. We have enough so so guys to try and make better. The Panthers need a true stud up front that can play as a starter from the opening of training camp.
this is what were going to do!
we will cut edwards and kearse,which will make enough cap room with other moves as well to sign paul siola from the dolphins that will provide a solid dt in both run and pass support. draft ingram in the 1rst or crick in the 2nd that will allow us to move them around in both 4-3 or 3-4. that way we can get a steady pass rush and it should help hardy and johnson get more 1 on1 coverage as well. then we either take claiborne or minnifield with the other pick between the 1rst and 2nd picks. boom superbowl run! well a guy can dream can’t he!
IMO, Brockers isn't as talented as Neblett right now. He's extremely raw, and didn't exhibit the push you would want from an elite DT.
Adding more depth and developmental talent to the roster allows the coaching staff to further develop our young DT’s and give them the experience and knowledge necessary to become a cohesive unit.
I don't want to draft Michael Brockers or Devon Still. Chris Kreider is the future.
by Son of a Newton on Feb 19, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Brockers is the most talented DT in the draft.
I think you’re confusing “talented” with “refined” because there’s not a more talented DT than Brockers on our roster.
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by Jake Humphrey on Feb 19, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
how is Brockers so talented?
i just dont see it. He’s athletic but he gets pushed around a lot and doesnt penetrate> i just dont see anything that suggest potential dominance in his game
I wanna be the very best, like no one ever was
I just don't see his abilities translating to the next level in the immediate future.
I don't want to draft Michael Brockers or Devon Still. Chris Kreider is the future.
by Son of a Newton on Feb 19, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
South carolina IS the real USC, not the other way
We take offense to that haha. We were a school before Cali was a state even.
That said, I like travian, he really plugged the gap and allowed our DE’s to roam free to the QB. He is a key member of our top 5 defense
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you guys are like a bunch of pirahnas
by chop goes da weazel on Mar 31, 2011 12:32 PM PDT
by MikeTrain on Feb 19, 2012 2:22 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Everyone but those that attended the University of South Carolina know the University of Southern California as USC.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
I do not attend USC
But I know that Southern Cal is not USC.
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by Jake Humphrey on Feb 19, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
I don't understand this "Real USC" stuff
It’s just an abbreviation. The schools just happen to have the same initials. They’re both USC.
Just like Ohio State, Oklahoma State and Oregon State are all OSU.
Ohio State is tOSU
Just ask them.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Feb 19, 2012 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
You forgot Oswego State University, they're the legit osu
I don't want to draft Michael Brockers or Devon Still. Chris Kreider is the future.
by Son of a Newton on Feb 19, 2012 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
we've got enough development players at the DT position
Why would we add to that list? I only want us to draft a tackle if he’s a run stopping machine aka thompson or a player with the potential to be the cornerstone of our defence aka brockers. Brockers may be raw but he has all the tools to be a defensive stalwart for us. Just depends on if the FO thinks he’s got what it takes. I see literally no point in drafting a tackle in the later rounds. We’ve got enough JAGs as it is at the position
Save us Pilares
by LimeyPanther on Feb 19, 2012 3:14 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I think that some of the JAG's we've got have the tools to become legit DT's in the NFL.
Lot’s of great linemen fall through the cracks and end up becoming solid DT’s on the big stage. Jay Ratliff, Geno Atkins, and Paul Soliai were all Pro Bowlers this season, and all of them were drafted past the 4th round. Some of the guys highlighted above have the physical tools necessary to become good linemen in the NFL, but haven’t received the proper coaching to realize their abilities. Personally, I’d rather take a chance on a guy in the later rounds, than taking a risk on an unrefined guy in the 1st round, let alone the top ten.
I don't want to draft Michael Brockers or Devon Still. Chris Kreider is the future.
by Son of a Newton on Feb 19, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
i half agree with you
I think we should draft a pass rusher first and address dt with the second pick unless there’s a really good corner left. I would be gutted if we took brockers because he could be huge for us. Its a bit of a gamble in the top 10 though. We’ll see soon enough I suppose.
Save us Pilares
by LimeyPanther on Feb 19, 2012 4:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Fair enough, I could see Brockers bringing a huge impact for the Panthers, but just as easily I could see him never living up to expectations.
I’m with you that an improved pass rush could turn the entire defense around, moreover, I’m not convinced that Brockers will be able to provide any more pass rush than Neblett or Kearse can right now.
I don't want to draft Michael Brockers or Devon Still. Chris Kreider is the future.
by Son of a Newton on Feb 19, 2012 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
I'm great with some of these DT.
Just as long as we don’t take any pot shots at guys from small schools taken a few rounds from when they’re projected, I’m good to go. I’m good with all of these people you listed, especially Travian Robertson.
ACC Championship Member Brandon Thompson is the new Jacoby Ford. You better pick him Panthers or you will be doomed to relive the 2010 season over and over again in the Twilight Zone.
Clemson 2011 ACC Champions! Look forward to doing it again next year! :D
Dominique Hamilton out of Mizzou!!!!! Big run stuffer.
by JStewart28 on Feb 19, 2012 4:28 PM EST via mobile reply actions
He could be a solid project at NT, he's got a big frame and nice measureables.
And decent production to boot.
I don't want to draft Michael Brockers or Devon Still. Chris Kreider is the future.
by Son of a Newton on Feb 19, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
Brockers is the next Richard Seymour...
That is the type of player he most physically is built like and Seymour turned out to be quite the DT for most of his career. I’d take that all day long here in Carolina wouldn’t you?
Seymore Actually Produced Sacks In College & Brockers Didn't (Only 2 In 2 Years)
If the Panthers draft a non-pass rushing DT, they will be right where they are now again next season, needing someone to produce an inside pass rush, whitch probably meens anothe 1st round pick on a DT.
At This point Brockers is a tweener, not big enough to play NT (yet), not enough of a sack threat for DT or 3-4 DE.
2013 is the year to go after a big run stuffer, with around 5 likely to go in the top 50 picks.
by PanthersRoar on Feb 19, 2012 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
Richard Seymour is a 3-4 DE.
And I just don’t see Brockers in the same mold.
I don't want to draft Michael Brockers or Devon Still. Chris Kreider is the future.
by Son of a Newton on Feb 20, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
Good write up
I just don’t see the point though especially if Ron Edwards comes back. We already have to project DT’s. If we don’t draft a DT that can play now, I don’t think we’ll draft one.
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Kheeston Randall
I love what I have seen from Randall, my ideal scenario would be trading our 1st and 2nd for Cincy’s 2 first rounders.
Ughh
Carolina needs a new kicker and the best player available. The rest of the team is actually fine. The only thing I think we should actively seek is a safety net for Thomas Davis. Oh, I forgot about Sherrod Martin. We need a bigger, badder safety. If anyone spots a faster Chris Harris, email Hurney.
DT "When Did You Get Here?"
Greg Hardy "Man...I've been here all day."
Right on.
I don't want to draft Michael Brockers or Devon Still. Chris Kreider is the future.
by Son of a Newton on Feb 20, 2012 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
Picking 8/9 (assuming we stay there), we MAY be looking at a board with...
DTs: Still, Brockers, (Coples)
OTs: Reiff, Martin, Adams
CBs: Dre K, J. Jenkins
WRs: Wright, Floyd, Sanu, Jeffery
OLB/DEs: Ingram, Upshaw, (Coples)
My opinion?
The safest pick is OT. I prefer Reiff, but Martin’s a pretty sure thing as well, and I have seen rankings with Adams ahead of both of them. We must be mindful of our aging Left Side and ongoing injury risk with Otah.
The highest ceiling belongs to Brockers, with Coples and Upshaw not far behind. All of these guys have a strong potential to help our ailing pass rush, but Brockers is an unpolished diamond, IMO.
Highest “Bust” Factor: I don’t know. Help me out here, guys.
"Sharks are as tough as those football fans who take their shirts off during games in Chicago in January, only more intelligent." - Dave Barry
"Actually, it only takes one drink to get me loaded. Trouble is, I can't remember if it's the thirteenth or fourteenth" -- George Burns
"Football is easy if you're crazy as hell" - Bo Jackson
After review, I'm adding Ingram to the high ceiling list as well.
"Sharks are as tough as those football fans who take their shirts off during games in Chicago in January, only more intelligent." - Dave Barry
"Actually, it only takes one drink to get me loaded. Trouble is, I can't remember if it's the thirteenth or fourteenth" -- George Burns
"Football is easy if you're crazy as hell" - Bo Jackson
Highest bust factor would be the highest ceiling factor players...
All of the ones you mentioned are pretty much high risk/high reward guys.
The WR’s are going to be high bust factor too because it’s the nature of the position.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Yep.
I don't want to draft Michael Brockers or Devon Still. Chris Kreider is the future.
by Son of a Newton on Feb 20, 2012 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
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