2011 Season Panther Player Recap: Greg Hardy
by Revshawn on Feb 17, 2012 11:00 AM EST
in Panther Player & Position Reviews
Email
Print
So far, the career of Greg Hardy has come off as a mixed review. In 2010, the Panthers fan base allowed themselves to become enchanted by 6th rounder out of Mississippi. Greg Hardy entered the training camp with a vengeance seeming intent on wining a starting job. In the first preseason game of his career, Greg Hardy would notch up two sacks and 5 tackles against the backup squad of the Ravens, outperforming starter Tyler Brayton who then went on to sit out the rest of the preseason due to injury.
As the preseason wore on there began to brew this tremendous sense that we have a special guy buried on the roster behind a veteran. Which was very typical of the John Fox era and his coaching style. A lot of Panther fans had gotten used to things like that at the time. Still when John Fox made the decision to start Tyler Brayton ahead of Greg in the regular season, a lot of us were shaking our heads and thinking, "Here we go again." Greg Hardy would seem to respond in Game 1 against the New York Giants, blocking a punt despite being regulated to Special Teams duty. John Fox still would not budge. Tyler would go on to have the worst season of his career, earning no sacks and only 22 tackles. And when John Fox left at the end of the year after a 2-14 season, Tyler Brayton's fate was sealed. Greg Hardy would get his chance to start in 2011.
How has he done? Let's look at the numbers after the jump!
| Games Started | Combined Tackles | Single tackles | Assisted Tackles | Sacks | Safeties | Pass Defences | Interceptions |
| 16 | 50 | 38 | 12 | 4.0 | 1 | 11 | None |
It seems a rather underwhelming season considering how much faith we put into Greg and how we thought he would tear it up once he got his due starting time. It's one of the downsides of being a fan. Sometimes we build a guy up so much that expecting to reach the expectations we have set for him end up being unfair. He did alright last year, but he didn't knock off people's heads like everyone was expecting.
The first thing worth mentioning is that our defensive line as a whole played very badly last year. Both of our defensive tackles were rookies and Greg Hardy was in his first year starting. Add that onto Jon Beason and Thomas Davis going down and it's going to be hard for any pass rusher to get through. However, he was miles away better than Tyler Brayton and his 22 tackles in his last year, so in that respect we can consider Greg Hardy a success.
Run Defense
As James pointed out so eloquently in his article a couple of weeks ago, teams would kill us when they ran to the right side of the football field. Which makes a lot of sense to be honest. When was the last time you remember Greg Hardy making a big stop on a running back behind the line of scrimmage? It doesn't happen. Greg Hardy doesn't quite have the interior push that you need in order disrupt running lanes like if you were a strong nose tackle nor does he have a good spin move to disengage and get back to the inside to his lane if a running back is heading his way. Without either of these things, it's going to be tough to do much stop the running game once engaged with your opponent.
These things are teachable and they are very necessary if you're going to play defensive end in the NFL. There are very few players that can come into the NFL and be successful simply by being physically dominant. The good news is that Greg Hardy will have far more opportunities this year to learn them then last year's lockout shortened off season. And let's be honest, Hardy is a physical freak. It's not like he doesn't have the talent to be able to do it.
Pass Defense
In a league that is steadily moving away from the running game and passing more year by year, the most important stat here that fans look for here are sacks. At four sacks the number isn't flashy like fans thought it would be, but it's far better than that glaring zero that Brayton had the year before. However, he doesn't get away from his man on a consistent basis because he always seems to try to beat them on the outside. If you are in college against inexperienced tackles, you may be able to pull that off against people who aren't as beastly as the Kraken. However in the NFL, everyone is a beast. You can't outrun tackles like you could in college, they'll beat you to the outside every time and seal you out of the play. That's the main thing Greg has to work on. He needs to develop different moves to beat his man.
To compare him against the other DE's in the league, let's make a formula and compare him to other 4-3 DE's with at least one dominant DE on the other side. Remember, they need to both be in a 4-3 defense AND have another dominant DE. We'll say the qualification to be a dominant DE is 8 sacks, compile the data, and the output is as follows.
| Team Name | 1st Starter | 2nd Starter |
| Cleveland Browns | J. Sheard 8.5 sacks | J. Michell 1.5 sacks |
| Indianapolis Colts | Robert Mathis 9.5 sacks | Dwight Freeney 8.5 sacks |
| Jacksonville Jaguars | J. Mincey 8.0 sacks | Math Rott 3.5 sacks |
| New England Patriots | Andre Carter 10 sacks | Mark Anderson 10 sacks |
| Denver Broncos | Elvis Dumervil 9.5 sacks | Robert Ayers 3.0 sacks |
| Chicago Bears | Unnamed One 11.5 sacks | Israel Idonije 5.0 |
| Detroit Lions | Cliff Anvil 11.0 sacks | Kyle Vanden Bosce 8.0 |
| Minnesota Vikings | Jared Allen 22 sacks | Brian Robinson 8.0 sacks |
| Carolina Panthers | Charles Johnson 9.0 sacks | Greg Hardy 4.0 sacks |
| Atlanta Falcons | John Abraham 9.5 sacks | Ray Edwards 3.5 |
| New York Giants | Jason Pierre Paul 16.5 sacks | Justin Tuck 5.0 |
| Philadelphia Eagles | Jason Babin 18.0 sacks | Trent Cole 11.0 |
| Seattle Seahawks | Chris Clemons 11.0 sacks | Red Bryant: 1.0 |
| St. Louis Rams | Chris Long 11.0 sacks | James Hall 6 sacks |
14 out of 32 times qualified for the table. As you can see, asides from a few teams Greg Hardy finishes a little bit behind the middle of the pack. As many of these teams have shown, there is room enough on a defense for two elite defensive ends. That means the Kraken has to improve. Whether the Kraken will develop into that is up to the course of time to decide. Getting two dominant DT's would help though.
Final analysis
Greg Hardy was a 6th round pick for a reason. He is a powerful athlete that needs good coaching in order to reach his potential. With the lockout-shortened off-season last year, he wasn't able to receive much of it. So it's hard to expect the Kraken to break out and be a dominant player right off the bat. Greg Hardy didn't have an excellent year like we hyped him to have. Guess what? Our entire defense didn't either. This upcoming year will be a far better grade of what he can do as a player once he has had time to prepare and get ready for what the starters in the NFL has in store for him. He has OTA's ahead of him and a complete training camp. Hopefully the Panthers will draft a strong DT in the early rounds as well and Ron Edwards will come back strong to go cause havoc and help him break free.
I'll end the article on a positive note with a random montage video from his college days. Who knows? Maybe he reads this blog and he'll save this video to gain from it inspiration to crush people on game day. Note that all of his good plays come with him trying to beat his opponent on the outside. He's going to have to learn to do more besides that in the NFL.
Greg Hardy Highlights (Bama Game) (via kingaries08)
ATTENTION! THIS IS AN IMPORTANT PART!
55 comments
|
2 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I think drafting another de would help our d line
Follow me on twitter @shauniiboi
Go Panthers!!!!!
by shaun_bass on Feb 17, 2012 11:12 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Agreed.
I don't want to draft Michael Brockers or Devon Still. Kreider is the future.
by Son of a Newton on Feb 17, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Awesome ending there.
I agree that Hardy “is what he is, and will be till his is not.”
Eww my fingers just went numb… anyways… To be forthwright Hardy is likely going to become a pass rusher speacialist. He has one speed and that is forward, and one thought, that is QB Bacon.
Fundelments is dearly lacking in college football were results are more imporatnat than learned to get ther the right way. Hardy may be able to be molded by Rivera into a sound lineman but it hard to tell a race horse he needs to learn fence jumping. If you understood what I said your one up on me.
I am a proud supporter of troll hunting.
I think Hardy will be a 3 down DE
A lot of his run defense struggles come from lack of discipline which will come with time. One thing that people forget is that he had no offseason. Everyone had a shortened offseason, but he had none. He was in a motorcycle accident before training camp and he missed all offseason activities plus the preseason, not even practicing at the time. He also had a lingering foot injury that bothered him all year. And of course this was his first year as a starter and had no inside help at all. I have high expectations for him next year.
I wanna be the very best, like no one ever was
That's a good point.
Thanks for that reminder.
by Windy City Panther on Feb 17, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
Hardy had a better year than Brayton
While not putting up mind boggling stats, he did ok. You are right that he wasn’t helped out by the patchwork defense but I think that is subject to change once we get a solid DT on the line and Beason returns. The Kraken is still one of my favorite players to watch and I think 2012 will be a great year for him.
Integrity first. Service before self. Excellence in all you do. -- USAF Core Values
by Disciple of Carolina on Feb 17, 2012 1:18 PM EST reply actions
I remain hopeful with Hardy. I'm pretty sure he was having leg problems last year
Several times on the sidelines you’d see him getting treatment and fighting through injury. In particular I remember him playing through a long defensive series, making it to the sidelines, then start limping over to the bench. BAMF came over checked on him, spoke in his ear for a bit and then patted him on the shoulder. I think coach has his back as well as the rest of the coaching staff. I’d love to see us land a multi-positional pass rusher like Coples, Brockers or Stills, but that is just to add to the arsenal we desperately need to get to the passer.
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing you will be an idiot in the future and common sense is knowing you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques
I don't always dress like a pirate...but when I do, I do it in this picture.
Hardy will be better once there's someone else on the line worth attention
But how poor he was against the run is still concerning to me. He’s still just a kid but I think adding a DE that can anchor against the run, whether it be a total package DE in the draft or adding a run-stuffer in free agency, would be a big improvement for us.
We need a DE and a DT for our defensive line to round it out nicely. Hopefully we do just that this offseason.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
There is a general misconception that Hardy is a RDE, and that all rushes to that side are his responsibility, and therefore that all successful rushes to our right side are his fault.
I would remind all that Hardy and Johnson switched sides numerous times last year, often in the same series, and that Hardy was assigned to rush from DT in many sets, too, when Applewhite and/or Keiser would come in on 3rd down passing situations.
He is NOT a static player, with only one responsibility, and even drops in pass coverage from time to time.
I made it a point to check the changing defensive lineups that McDermott employed, and the switches of positions were far more than most teams employ.
Hardy is a versatile defensive lineman, who lines up anywhere, is many times doubled, often held, and in general, under-appreciated. The stats shown minimize his effectiveness, with their stress on Sacks, and don’t show the many pressures and hurries he got, as well.
by bigdavis on Feb 17, 2012 1:35 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
Well said
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing you will be an idiot in the future and common sense is knowing you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques
I don't always dress like a pirate...but when I do, I do it in this picture.
I can't speak for the number of pressures/hurries he got.
But with four sacks and and ten QB hits he got his hands on the QB 14 total times. Sixteen ends had more hits than Hardy had sacks/hits combined.
We all love Hardy but he wasn’t even that good at reaching the QB, run defense aside. That’s not to say he can’t improve, and I’m sure the motorcycle wreck played a part, but he’s got a ways to go.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Feb 17, 2012 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
He did only get his hands on the QB 14 times.
He also knocked down 11 passes. If I remember correctly, this led the NFL.
Was he perfect? No. He has a lot of room for improvement, and I think he should be used primarily as a pass rusher, if we have an upgrade for run stopping, at least at this point in his career.
However, I don’t think he had a bad season at all, he just wasn’t a superstar.
This came from PFF's wk 6 analysis:
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/10/14/three-to-focus-on-panthers-falcons/
“1) Falcons LT Sam Baker vs. Panthers DE’s Charles Johnson and Greg Hardy
.
Probably the biggest problem the Falcons have had this year is their offensive line’s inability to pass or run block. The biggest problem is that the Falcons are still trying to get former first round pick Sam Baker (-14.9) to work out at left tackle, but the 26 pressures he has allowed is the second most for tackles in 2011. Matt Ryan, who has a 18.0 pass rating when he is not pressured, clearly can’t operate with all that disruption in the backfield, as exemplified by his -0.5 rating under pressure.
.
Unfortunately for Atlanta, the Panthers have the right players to take advantage of this weakness. Expect either Greg Hardy (7.4 pass rush) or Charles Johnson (+3.5 pass rush) to be lined up across from Baker on basically every pass play. Seven of the team’s eight sacks this season have come from either of these two players, so any sacks that happen in this game will likely come from this matchup. Even if they can’t get to Ryan, expect the pressure to be on to rush Ryan’s throws and cause problems for the offense.”
Now this is only after the first 5 games, I grant you, but at that time, he had a higher grade as a pass rusher at DE than did Charles Johnson.
Now this is only after the first 5 games, I grant you, but at that time, he had a higher grade as a pass rusher at DE than did Charles Johnson.
I imagine it dropped off hard after that. From game 6-16, he only had one sack. Based on the first five weeks he was on pace for nine sacks, he finished with four.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Feb 17, 2012 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
the problem i have with ur comment is that 16 ends were better. how many of those 16 were on a better dline overall. how many had even adequate dt play compared to ours.
the kraken is also only in his second season last year. with only his 2nd year, no offseason, little chance to get in on defense his rookie season, oh, and his 3rd defensive scheme in as many years. the plays he has made so far i think are due solely to his innate atheleticism. just wait til he has a real grasp on our defense and some more experience.
"Don't tell me about the pain, just bring me the baby" Cam Newton
by braves&panthers4ever on Feb 17, 2012 8:35 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Is him being the 16th best end that unbelievable?
Yes, he had eleven passes defended but he did a poor job of getting to the quarterback for a starting defensive end. 43 ends had more sacks than he did, and 29 had more QB hits. Those players I referenced had more hits than Hardy had hits and sacks combined.
Nobody’s saying he didn’t have a crappy set of DT’s playing next to him, and nobody’s saying he can’t get better. But he just wasn’t that good at getting to the QB last year, regardless of the reasons.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Feb 17, 2012 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
its not unbelievable from a results standpoint because it obviously happened. but being those stats are reliant in large part to the success of those around him it doesnt tell anywhere near the whole story.
"Don't tell me about the pain, just bring me the baby" Cam Newton
by braves&panthers4ever on Feb 17, 2012 10:34 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I'm confused, Jake.
At 1:44, you said, “I can’t speak for the number of pressures/hurries he got.”
Then, you specified how many DEs had better numbers (43 and 29) than he did.
Can you supply a source of your stats comparisons? I always try to add a link to back up the numbers I quote, and find it easier to accept where I’ve been corrected, when I can read same from others.
I also would add that a Pass Defended by a DE (which is a pass deflected at the line), at which I think Hardy is a league leader, is a defensive play on an equal effect as a tackle for no gain – and only a yard or so less than most sacks: i. e., it’s a play killed with no gain, and loss of a down for the opposition.
When you say, “I imagine it dropped off hard after that,” you’re making an assumption, without fact to back it up. Now – if you had the season-ending grades from PFF, I’d believe it, but not just as you based it, on sacks. What I’m trying to get you to understand is that PFF (or any serious analyst who does in depth grading) would give an equally positive grade to a DE for a pass defended, or a hurry or pressure leading to an INT or a 3rd down failure, as they would for a sack. The same would be said for forcing a fumble, or scoring a safety, all in Hardy’s arsenal, too. All cause failure for the offense on that particular play, and are the result of individual effort.
The gist of my efforts here are to underscore that Sack stats alone don’t tell the story of a DE’s contributions in general, and for Hardy in particular.
I'll try to respond to all of this.
At 1:44, you said, "I can’t speak for the number of pressures/hurries he got."
Then, you specified how many DEs had better numbers (43 and 29) than he did.
No, I specified how many times he hit the QB. I don’t have access to pressures and hurries but I do know how many times he hit the QB.
Can you supply a source of your stats comparisons? I always try to add a link to back up the numbers I quote, and find it easier to accept where I’ve been corrected, when I can read same from others.
No problem. I’ve referenced this site here in the past and it’s certainly a useful tool. http://www.advancednflstats.com/
I also would add that a Pass Defended by a DE (which is a pass deflected at the line), at which I think Hardy is a league leader, is a defensive play on an equal effect as a tackle for no gain – and only a yard or so less than most sacks: i. e., it’s a play killed with no gain, and loss of a down for the opposition.
I had never quite looked at it that way, thank you for your input.
When you say, "I imagine it dropped off hard after that," you’re making an assumption, without fact to back it up.
I simply meant his sack numbers. Through Week 5 he was on pace for a nine sack season. He had one more sack the rest of the year.
What I’m trying to get you to understand is that PFF (or any serious analyst who does in depth grading) would give an equally positive grade to a DE for a pass defended, or a hurry or pressure leading to an INT or a 3rd down failure, as they would for a sack.
I agree with this. But given the information that I have at my disposal I can see that his sacks dropped off dramatically. Therefore I don’t think it’s a huge jump to assume that the rest of his “pressure” stats dropped off at the same time as his sacks did. If you can show me where I can see these more advanced stats then I’d appreciate it.
The gist of my efforts here are to underscore that Sack stats alone don’t tell the story of a DE’s contributions in general, and for Hardy in particular.
Again, I absolutely agree.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Feb 18, 2012 12:18 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks for the link, Jake.
You and I just showed the blog how 2 reasonable fans can differ in some of their opinions about a player, yet keep it civil, cordial, and respectful, and help to educate each other, in seeing things with a slightly different angle.
You’re absolutely right about the relatively fast start he got off to with his sacks, later tailing off. And you agree with me that that doesn’t tell the whole story of his effect on a game.
I think we both hope he evolves into the beast we both think he can be, with all the gaudy numbers, and subsequent recognition, that could follow.
If I could call up the advanced metrics on hurries and pressures, I’d share them, but I don’t want to pay for them.
Nice talking with you, my friend.
Good talk, BD
but I don’t want to pay for them.
I’ve got the exact same problem.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Feb 18, 2012 12:37 AM EST up reply actions
Another interesting tidbit, I just got from your linked site:
Hardy grades as their 6th best in the league, at something they term Success Count (SC in the headings)
http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defenderstats.php?pos=DE
Here’s an article they wrote, explaining what it means:
http://www.advancednflstats.com/2011/09/success-count.html
As I read it, the “Success Count” is a simple counting stat of positive plays, made by that player. And, for Hardy to come in #6 in the league, out of the 125 DEs they rank, well, I think that bears out what I’ve been saying, that he’s been WAY MORE effective than mere Sacks would show.
(I meant to add this excerpt, from their site):
"
Sep 13, 2011
Success Count
Instead, let’s just add up all the sacks, interceptions, passes defended, QB hits, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, tackles, and assists that result in team-level successes. Success Count is that simple."
I hadn't seen that.
From what I’m seeing though, I’m liking it more than some of the other advanced stats from their site.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Feb 18, 2012 12:52 AM EST up reply actions
What I am finding
Is that I don’t really care for their evaluation of cornerbacks.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Feb 18, 2012 12:56 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think anyone has doubted his ability as a pass rusher
It’s his lack of ability against the run that’s extremely concerning to me, as typified by the stats you’ve linked to here.
16 games, 8 tackles for a loss? That’s pretty abysmal. That means he only had 4 non-sack plays in an entire season that stopped a ball carrier or receiver behind the LoS.
Using the same numbers Charles Johnson has 19 tackles for a loss in the 2011 season.
These stats further support my assertion that he’s an incredibly gifted pass rusher, and little more. I’d rather use him as such than try to find all sorts of ways to prove he’s a 3-down DE.
As for the metric itself… it seems flawed to me. ‘Success rate’ has Greg Hardy 7th and Charles Johnson 30th. Maybe it’s just me, and maybe I’m crazy, but watching 16 full games of both guys that one just doesn’t pass the sniff test.
You're not crazy - but get your sniffer checked out. There's some sort of blockage there.
First of all, it’s “Success Count,” not Success rate. At AdvancedNFLStats, they use Success Rate (which is a ratio) as more of a team stat measurement. Success Count is not a ratio, but (for defensive players) a sum of:
Sacks
Ints
Passes defended
QB Hits
Forced Fumbles
Fumble Recoveries
Tackles
Assists
If you add all those up, Hardy had 76, and Johnson had 68. Now on their Success Count grid, they only show 54 for Hardy, and 40 for CJ. The reason for that apparent discrepancy is that, to include in the SC total, it has to be on a play “that results in team-level successes.”
I’d say they’ve therefore culled out tackles and assists (22 in Hardy’s case; 28 for CJ) that were made after a gain was allowed. Sure, the DE might have shown good pursuit, but bringing down a rusher after a gain is not “success,” in the narrowest definition. Success for a defender comes when the offense is made to fail.
All this is in answer to your last paragraph, which dismisses a metric you’ve mislabeled, misread, and (IMO) misjudged. Maybe you should read the exchange between Jake and me, and keep a more open mind about evaluations, and how they can be measured.
…now…let me get back to your main objection to Hardy, as you seem to label him as some kind of pushover in the run defense side of things. (Hold on, I didn’t quote you; I said “seem to” LOL)
You blithely quoted FO as ranking the Panthers as 32nd ranked in run defense on our right side, and then went on to indict Hardy as having the responsibility for all that. ABSOLUTELY WRONG! Even though that post was made over 2 weeks ago, Revshawn picks it up in this one, and bathes you in glory for your “eloquence.” Here’s what you said:
“As it stands we have run defense stats based on where our opponents got their gains, courtesy of Football Outsiders.
Left end (ROLB reponsibility): 3.93 YPC, 10th in the NFL
Left tackle (Charles Johnson responsibility): 3.96 YPC, 13th in the NFL
Mid/Guard (NT/DT responsibility): 4.53 YPC, 31st in the NFL
Right tackle (Greg Hardy responsibility): 5.62 YPC, 32nd in the NFL
Right end (James Anderson responsibility): 5.63 YPC, 32nd in the NFL
This paints a clear picture of where the weaknesses were for the Panthers in stopping the run in 2011, and what needs to be worked on. "
I now invite you, and all others, to re-read the page from FO that you base your criticism of Hardy on:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl
Before the 2nd table (your source) it clearly states:
“These runs are from the perspective of the OFFENSE, so a run listed as LEFT TACKLE is actually at the RIGHT defensive end.”
So the greater rushing gains vs the Panthers were NOT being enjoyed against our RIGHT side, but our LEFT.
Both you and Rev need to get your facts straight, I think. There is a flaw, but it’s not with either metric supplier.
Of course, this thread is now knocked down on the FP by newer articles, and probably won’t even be read any more, but I think it’s important to clarify a persistent error. Hardy is NOT a bad defender in ANY sense of the word, or nose.
Did you read the football outsiders website?
Before accusing me of needing to ‘get my facts straight’ I suggest you do and then come back…
Okay, now you’ll see that I made it easier to read for our readers, but the raw data from FO is thus:
- 10th in the league on LEFT END RUNS
- 13th in the league on LEFT TACKLE RUNS
- Charles Johnson is the RDE, responsible for the LT
- 32nd in the league on RIGHT TACKLE RUNS
- 32nd in the league on RIGHT END RUNS
- Greg Hardy is the LDE, responsible for the RT
So… where’s the flaw?
As for this ‘success count’ I think it’s stupid and rather not talk about it. No offense to the website creator, because it’s nice to get new perspectives. However, anyone who values an assisted tackle as equal to an INT, FF or Sack is beyond help
Assisted Tackles were no factor in comparing positive plays from Hardy and Johnson.
Hardy had 12; Johnson 10. The difference lies elsewhere.
I agree with you that Assists are the lowest element to consider, but if a player shares a Tackle with another, which results in No Gain, or a loss (a “successful” defensive play), it shouldn’t be discounted altogether. Nevertheless, that 2 Assist difference between the two is splitting hairs.
Now.. whether you disignate Hardy as the LDE, or the RDE, it makes no difference. I maintain he played each position about equally, switching with Johnson even within a series, many times.
Now.. whether you disignate Hardy as the LDE, or the RDE, it makes no difference. I maintain he played each position about equally, switching with Johnson even within a series, many times.I’ve only saved 2 games from last season on DVR, due to space limitations, the Houston game (12/18), and the Tampa Bay game (12/24). I planned to rewatch them, anyway, so I’ll expedite that, and grade Hardy and Johnson on every rep they had, noting which spot they each lined up on. It’ll be interesting to me, even if not to you, to see how that plays out. Maybe it’s only 1/8 of the season, but it’s all I’ve got to review – and besides, they’re late in the year, after some maintain Hardy was less effective (i.e., fewer sacks), so it won’t be a highlight reel for him.
Now.. whether you disignate Hardy as the LDE, or the RDE, it makes no difference. I maintain he played each position about equally, switching with Johnson even within a series, many times.I’ve only saved 2 games from last season on DVR, due to space limitations, the Houston game (12/18), and the Tampa Bay game (12/24). I planned to rewatch them, anyway, so I’ll expedite that, and grade Hardy and Johnson on every rep they had, noting which spot they each lined up on. It’ll be interesting to me, even if not to you, to see how that plays out. Maybe it’s only 1/8 of the season, but it’s all I’ve got to review – and besides, they’re late in the year, after some maintain Hardy was less effective (i.e., fewer sacks), so it won’t be a highlight reel for him.When I get it done, I’ll make it a new FanPost, just as a followup to our discussion. Okay?
Now.. whether you disignate Hardy as the LDE, or the RDE, it makes no difference. I maintain he played each position about equally, switching with Johnson even within a series, many times.I’ve only saved 2 games from last season on DVR, due to space limitations, the Houston game (12/18), and the Tampa Bay game (12/24). I planned to rewatch them, anyway, so I’ll expedite that, and grade Hardy and Johnson on every rep they had, noting which spot they each lined up on. It’ll be interesting to me, even if not to you, to see how that plays out. Maybe it’s only 1/8 of the season, but it’s all I’ve got to review – and besides, they’re late in the year, after some maintain Hardy was less effective (i.e., fewer sacks), so it won’t be a highlight reel for him.When I get it done, I’ll make it a new FanPost, just as a followup to our discussion. Okay?I will add that, to dismiss something which disagrees with an assumption of yours, first because it fails your “sniff test,” and then to say it’s “stupid,” is unbecoming, and an arbitrary refusal to consider opposing viewpoints. That’s not what you’ve always been about. (If my play analysis shows me to be wrong, I’ll admit it freely, BTW.)
I never said he was the 16th best DE.
What I did say is that 16 DE’s had more QB hits than Hardy had hits and sacks combined. 43 more ends had more sacks than he did, 29 had more QB hits.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Feb 18, 2012 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
the problem i have with ur comment is that 16 ends were better. how many of those 16 were on a better dline overall. how many had even adequate dt play compared to ours.
the kraken is also only in his second season last year. with only his 2nd year, no offseason, little chance to get in on defense his rookie season, oh, and his 3rd defensive scheme in as many years. the plays he has made so far i think are due solely to his innate atheleticism. just wait til he has a real grasp on our defense and some more experience.
"Don't tell me about the pain, just bring me the baby" Cam Newton
by braves&panthers4ever on Feb 17, 2012 8:35 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Anyone pretending that Hardy had a mediocre year simply wasn't watching close enough
I agree with you completely. He switched sides with Johnson consistently. He demanded frequent double teams to contain. And the one stat that I’m surprised no one has even mentioned is the passes defensed! He was very good about getting his hands up in the air if he couldn’t get to the QB. He still found ways to disrupt plays.
I’m not saying that he’s Jared Allen… but I think he can feel pretty damn good about his first year as a starter. There’s always room for improvement but I was highly encouraged by what I saw.
by Fernando De La Cruz on Feb 17, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
Small correction needed:
14 out of 32 times qualified for the table. As you can see, asides from a few teamsJamesGreg Hardy finishes a little bit behind the middle of the pack.
Got it. Thanks.
ACC Championship Member Brandon Thompson is the new Jacoby Ford. You better pick him Panthers or you will be doomed to relive the 2010 season over and over again in the Twilight Zone.
Clemson 2011 ACC Champions! Look forward to doing it again next year! :D
Using Hardy as a three down DE is mis-using him
I agree that he pretty much has one move, a really good rip and after that he tends to get lost.
He plays manic and out of control most of the time which results in huge plays, and big blunders.
I think Hardy will be best used the way Thomas Keiser was this yeat. Line him up on passing downs, let him play some stand up in a 3-4 look… let him move around.
Rather than trying to get a tiger to change his stripes by asking him to become a disciplined, hand on the ground, ’it’s okay to stay back sometimes’ DE, id rather they just let him run wild and pick his spots when we know he can create a terrible mismatch.
As it stands he gets mauled by technically sound OTs what have a good first step. I want to see him matched on a TE more and he’ll cause havoc.
by James Dator on Feb 17, 2012 1:53 PM EST via Android app reply actions
i think his sack numbers will double this year if he is left at the DE position
if he is not moved inside on obvious passing downs like 3rd and longs his sack numbers alone should increase. plus i think that he never fully healed from the wreck as others have stated, but you could see that he had lost some of his quickness on his first step which would contribute from his hurt foot from the RDE position is the foot that he pushes off of to get that quick first step.
Though Revshawn considers your previous analysis "eloquent," I find the part that assigned blame for our 32nd ranked run defense on Hardy as mistaken.
You based that on Football Outsiders, which called him our RDE, and I think I correctly called that out as incorrect.
FO may have their rushing stats correct, as far as which gap, or sweep, yielded the most yards, but they don’t have the time to know which player mans the station. I would bet that Greg Hardy played no more than 40% of his reps at RDE, plus there is a LB and sometimes a S responsibility to consider, if a sweep is successful – it’s not all on the DE.
Besides, I’ve found that Hardy’s reaction time is pretty good, in diagnosing a draw, or a pass to the flat, and redirecting himself to a RB, after seeing the QB’s no longer got the ball.
I don’t have access to the Premium stats of PFF, but if someone here does, I’d like to know their season ranking on Hardy, as it would hold more weight with me than FO, who measures team effectiveness, and not individual player effectiveness.
He may not have 100% of the snaps at the position, but the fact remains that his one move he does try takes him so far out of the play that he doesn’t have chance to get involved in the play. He does need to diversify if he’s gonna keep playing defensive end. I don’t really see him as having that bull-rushing ability when they switch him to defensive tackle either. It’s one of those things where he’s going to need some serious coaching when training camp comes around.
It would be nice to get another DE for him in the draft. But then you have to ask the question what is more important? Defensive tackle or Defensive end? As it stands we got a injury risk and a couple of 2nd year 3rd round rookies that played terribly for us last year as defensive tackles. We might have to go there for our first day picks and where will that leave us at defensive end?
I think it’s worth it to give Hardy a good training camp to see if they can mold him into a monster. He’s got the physical talent for it. It’s there. It’s just one of those situations where he was able to get through college on pure athleticism alone and he never bothered learning the technicalities of his position. That’s the way I see it.
ACC Championship Member Brandon Thompson is the new Jacoby Ford. You better pick him Panthers or you will be doomed to relive the 2010 season over and over again in the Twilight Zone.
Clemson 2011 ACC Champions! Look forward to doing it again next year! :D
You cleverly changed the subject on me there, rev.
I was objecting to the misguided notion that poor run defense around our RDE is Hardy’s fault, as James, citing of FO stated.
You whipped it around to then knocking him for his lack of sacks, when he plays DT, basing it on your ability to judge his technique. Have you played DT or DE?
I sure haven’t, but I know that when they sub him on 3rd down packages, for a starting DT that may weigh 30+ lbs more than his 277, they’re not doing it for his “bull-rushing” abilities, but rather to attack a certain gap. Nobody expects him to overpower a 325 lb OG or Center.
I wasn’t knocking him for his lack of sacks in my reply to you. I didn’t even mention it. The point I’m trying to make is that there is only one move he has when he’s playing DE. Which is trying to beat his OT to the outside. He’s a fast guy with a lot of physical attributes, but that’s just not going to work against your average tackle in the NFL. He’s going to find himself beaten and out of position and it’ll lead to people breaking it open in the run game. They might throw him in at DT on 3rd down just to throw the Peytan Mannings of this league a different look on the D-Line, but he’s not going to beat your average guard either with the way he plays. Best thing he can do is get his hands up and try to deflect a pass, which he did very well last year.
I want to see if he can develop more moves in the off-season, OTA’s, and training camp. This is the most important thing. I’m convinced he has the ability to start. He’s got a lot of physical talent. He’s just got to develop the technique. Then he can start more snaps on his natural position and we’ll have hit on a 6th round gem in the draft. We have more important needs to address in the draft anyway. I’d like another year to see if a coach can make this Greg Hardy experiment work.
ACC Championship Member Brandon Thompson is the new Jacoby Ford. You better pick him Panthers or you will be doomed to relive the 2010 season over and over again in the Twilight Zone.
Clemson 2011 ACC Champions! Look forward to doing it again next year! :D
11 passes defended is a stat I don't think is given enough value when looking at his productivity.
by daburge on Feb 17, 2012 1:53 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Gamble had 12
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Feb 17, 2012 9:56 PM EST up reply actions
It led the league for DEs.
Only Calais Campbell of Arizona, had as many.
Of our CBs, only Chris Gamble had more, with 15.
That is an astounding stat.
I would say that Hardy was “streets ahead” of Brayton but that’s just me lol.
by JStewart28 on Feb 17, 2012 2:54 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I definitely think that Hardy has a lot of promise,
But I think that adding another DE to the fold would provide more of a solid rotation, thus helping Hardy stay more appropriately rested, and increasing his production.
I don't want to draft Michael Brockers or Devon Still. Kreider is the future.
by Son of a Newton on Feb 17, 2012 3:17 PM EST reply actions
Personally,
I would like to see Hardy put into the Applewhite role. To me this is were he belongs, first man off the bench type thing and put in special packages. IMO Hardy is a better applewhite and thats where he belongs….
I agree with this.
I’d like to see Hardy as the 3rd DE at this point.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Feb 17, 2012 9:56 PM EST up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Cat Scratch Reader
Related FanShots on Cat Scratch Reader
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
- Former high-school star Brian Banks does serious time on trumped-up charge, now hopes for an NFL shot
- Former ‘idiot kicker’ Mike Vanderjagt in trouble after accosting junior-high heckler
- Adrian Peterson blows teammates away in footraces; appears to be on the mend
- UPDATE: Charlie Sheen didn’t buy Lawrence Taylor’s Super Bowl ring
- Alex Smith gets blown up by Jon Beason over Cam Newton comments
