Hips Don't Lie: A Complicated Tale Of Verticals, Forties, And Other Fascinating Numbers
The most recent well-written post by our very own manager, James Dator, gave me an insightful take on how most scouts and front offices view the combine. With all the media hype surrounding this annual event, their is always a chance that a coach and/or gm could become more enamored with measurables than they actually should. While there is no doubt that scouting departments across the league must proceed with caution when evaluating these prospects based on combine numbers alone, there is also a caveat to consider if one goes into this event with there eyes wide shut. Let's take some time to find out who ignored some gaudy numbers, and as a result, has payed a heavy price over the last several years.
Vernon Gholston is widely known today as the poster child for good combines gone bad. But there is another side to this that sometimes goes unnoticed. Let me put it to you this way: For every Vernon Gholston, I'll raise you a Connor Barwin. Let's go ahead and examine his remarkable story for a few minutes. Barwin was, for all intents and purposes, a failure during his first three years at Cincinnati. Up until his Senior season, his coaches had come to the conclusion that special teams and back-up tight end was his ceiling. Through some trial and error, they finally came to their senses by realizing that it wouldn't hurt to give him a shot at playing defensive end. To their surprise, he was a natural at the position and his stats only confirmed this fact. Barwin posted team highs of 11 sacks and 14.5 tackles-for-loss that final season, thereby introducing himself to the scouts and the nation in a very big way. His stock was appropriately on the rise, but there was understandable skepticism out there as well. Determined to further make a name for himself, he entered the combine with God-given talents that many players could only dream of. The only question that would remain in the aftermath was this: How much could his draft stock actually rise after putting up such formidable numbers? Let's review the tape and find out who he out-performed.
Barwin was already viewed as a third round prospect who could slip into the second round with an outstanding combine, and let's just say, he didn't disappoint. At 6' 4", 256 lbs., he only went out there and ran a 4.59 forty, with a 1.57 ten yard split. He further displayed his explosion by posting a 40.5 inch vertical and a 10' 8" broad jump. Can you guess who else was at this combine and in the same draft class. Everette Brown. Let's examine Brown's numbers for a moment and see how they measured up to Barwins'. Brown, who was two inches shorter, was still a viable comparison with Barwin because they weighed in at the exact same weight, 256 lbs. Here are Brown's combine measurables: 4.63 forty, 1.58 ten yard split, a 31 inch vertical and a broad jump of 9' 8". How could someone ignore the fact that these numbers were significantly less than those that Barwin posted? I'll tell you how. Brown produced better numbers in college. He had 13 sacks and 21.5 tackles for loss in one less game than Barwin in his final season at Florida State. Perhaps this is where the Panthers went wrong. As painful as it is, let's see if we can gain some perspective on this subject by re-living the debacle that was the 2009 draft for the Carolina Panthers.
The Panthers were already somewhat behind the eight ball when the 2009 draft came along because of what they had done in the previous draft. They had given up their 2009 first rounder during the 2008 draft for the right to move from the second round to the first round in order to pick Jeff Otah. With that being said, their first pick in the '09 draft was late in the second round at number 59. If ever there was a wrong move to be made, this was certainly it. They apparently saw something that the other front offices didn't when they traded their 2010 first round pick away for the right to move up sixteen spots in the second round to pick Everette Brown. The same Everette Brown who out-produced Connor Barwin in his final season of college, but was overwhelmingly out-classed at the combine. Did you know that Barwin was selected three spots later by the Houston Texans and, unlike Brown, he hasn't disappointed. After being cut by the Panthers last year before the season even started, Brown was signed two months later by the San Diego Chargers, who couldn't even find a place for him in their rotation, while Barwin was having a career season by posting 11.5 sacks with the Texans.
What does all of this tell you? I don't know about you, but it doesn't tell me anything more than what we've all heard before. This is a confusing business, an inexact science if you will, and its as difficult today as it ever was to navigate its murky waters. It most certainly isn't a job for those who are unwilling to take risks, but it does require a level of prudence when evaluating each and every prospect on a case by case basis. Ultimately, I believe Hurney has over-achieved during his tenure as GM here in Carolina. Sure, he's made some egregious errors along the way, but I believe he has learned from his mistakes, and is driven even more to pick the right players at the right spots. After all, he has given us a slew of outstanding players to cheer for every Sunday, and I feel we, the fans, are very blessed to have him as our GM. In closing, remember to proceed with caution if someone blows up the 2012 combine with flashy numbers, but don't ignore them completely.
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It seems those rare moments when Marty trades down far outshine those where he trades up
i.e. Beason
YES!!!
we’re finally out of the woods on that trade up stuff. i pull for trade back this year.
by bylinebrown on Feb 10, 2012 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It tells me two things:
1) That the 40 yard dash, whilst important, isn’t the be all and end all of the Combine.
I really look at the drills that measure the explosion of the athlete & their change of direction skills – the broad jump, the vertical jump, the 3 and 5 yard cone drills. Those are the ones that, in my opinion, tell you the most about a player. It’s rare to see a player run 40 yards flat out in the NFL, and they certainly never bench press anyone (although it does give you a reasonable idea of their strength).
2) The whole scouting process is important. The vast majority of a player’s grade should be based on the game tape/interviews, but seeing just how athletic they are at a neutral venue (’cos as we all know Pro Days fudge the numbers) can tilt the balance one way or another for a player.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Spot on analysis my man!
I couldn’t agree with you more.
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I agree. A player's previous play on the field should be the most important....
determining factor when evaluating their particular talents, but it’s always nice to now whether your getting the explosion of a V-12 engine or the lacking acceleration of a V-4. Of course, the engines in between are equally as difficult to predict as well.
by Derek Leazer on Feb 10, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly...
The obsession with 40 times is kinda ridiculous. I remember that Mel Kiper had PP7 like 4 or 5 on his big board and then after the combine he moved him all the way up to 1 or 2.
40 Times Haven't Been The Same Since They Moved Into The New Stadium
The problem started that 1st year in the new building, as average “official” (mechanically timed, but started by hand) 40 times on average were around 1/10th of a second slower than almost all the “unoffical” (hand held) 40 times. So I don’t expect but a few prospects to have faster 40 times than expected, though the timing problem has slightly improved.
by PanthersRoar on Feb 10, 2012 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
Pantherboy 76, I'm Very Impressed That You Take Notes During The Combine
However, let me add a few more details from my notes.
Connor Barwin (6-3 5/8, 256) – 4.66-40 “offically”, 4.56-40 “unofficially”, and a 4.47-40 Pro Day, 1.53-10 Yard Split, 6.87 3 Cone Drill.
Everrette Brown (6-1 1/2, 256) – 4.73-40 “offically”, 4.63-40 “unofficially”, and a 7.10 3 Cone Drill
I noticed when I was researching for this post...
that there were conflicting numbers when it came to these times. If I put inaccurate numbers out there, I apologize, but I hope that anyone that read this article understood the main point I was trying to convey, which was this: The Panthers could have traded up to get Barwin, but they went with Brown instead. I can only surmise that at least one of their reasons for picking Brown over Barwin was that he had more experience and better production at defensive end in college. The Panthers seemingly ignored the fact that Brown’s measurables were significantly less impressive than Barwins’, especially in the categories that are indicative of explosive ability, like the broad jump, 10 yard split, and vertical.
by Derek Leazer on Feb 10, 2012 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
I Thiink The Panthers May Have Considered Barwin A 3-4 OLB & Brown A 4-3 DE
I didn’t like the Brown pick, though he was from NC, and many projected him as going to the Bills with the 11th pick. I prefered Barwin, the Bengals Michael Johnson, and the Falcons Lawrence Sidbury for DE at That pick.
Great article Pantherboy 76, I didn’t mean to bring anything into question, just add some extra info.
by PanthersRoar on Feb 10, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks. I can't understand why they saw Brown....
as a 4-3 DE. Can you?
by Derek Leazer on Feb 10, 2012 9:17 PM EST up reply actions
Like You, I Feel They Focused Too Much On His Production At FSU & Maybe Were Swayed Because Brown Was Fron NC
I have the same worries about FSU’s DE/3-4 OLB Brandon Jenkins in the 2013 draft as I had about Brown (simular stats and size).
by PanthersRoar on Feb 10, 2012 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
That's an interesting thought. I'm sure the fact that Brown...
was a NC native was icing on the cake for Hurney at the time.
by Derek Leazer on Feb 10, 2012 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
I can, they had the dumb idea of drafting like the Colts by taking a small DE.
That type of thinking has never made sense to me.
Welcome to the Cam Cave
Around 255 Players Are Drafted Each Year & The Combine Usually Invites Around 330 Players, But Usually Around 30 Players Not Invited To The Combine Are Drafted Each Year
Those players that aren’t invited to the Combine, who get drafted, aren’t all 6th or 7th round picks, you’ll usually see the top one drafted in the 3rd or 4th round (a few may have even gone in the 2nd round in the past).
SI.com’s draft analyst Tony Pauline wrote that Miami of Ohio OG Brandon Banks (6-5, 353) is graded as a 3rd round pick by many teams, after he was the best O-Lineman in the East-West Shrine Bowl, and he wasn’t invited to the Combine.
www.rotoworld.com/sports/nfl/football?r=1
In a side note about players not invited to the Combine, The Rams just cut the CFL’s B. C. Lions OT/OG Jovan Olafioye (6-6, 325), who they just signed a couple of days ago as a free agent, because he failed his physical. Olafioye had visited, or worked out for 15 NFL teams, including the Panthers, before signing with the Rams, and he will now return to the CFL’s B. C. Lions.
www.rotoworld.com/playernews/nfl/football From: “The Globe and Mail”
Just look at T.J. Yates.
Was technically invited to the combine, but only as an arm to throw to the receivers while they were being evaluated.
"If ya ain't first, you're last."
- Ricky Bobby's Dad
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by KaiserBromley on Feb 11, 2012 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
nice post
Combine shows you who is a workout warrior and one on one interviews with team should gage mental and passion for the game. There will always be hits and misses but when a whole draft gives you nothing much to show for it like 2009 it is pretty bad.
That 09' draft was pathetic. I'm still pissed off about it.
I know we keep hearing that drafting is just a game of luck, but it isn’t. It’s a game of risk probability, and most teams certainly don’t know how to do it. Everette, Sherrod, Corvey, and Goodson were all terrible picks when they were made, not just after the fact.
Welcome to the Cam Cave
The Combine Has Far More Power To Lower A Prospects Draft Value Than To Raise It
Last year MLB Mario Harvey (5-10 7/8, 257) of Marshall ran a fantastic 4.43-40 at his Pro Day, but went undraftted, even though he had 420 career tackles, and in 2011 – 17.5 TFL’s, with 8.5 sacks.
I really missed on this player in the 2010 draft, WR Scott Long (6-2 1/8, 216) of Louisville, who he lead them in receiving his senior year, returning from a junior year ACL surgery. Long stunned the Combine with his performance,an “official” 4.46-40 (tied for 6th among WR’s), 1.49-10 Yard Split (tied for 3rd among WR’s), 20 bench reps (tied for 1st among WR’s), 41.5 inch vertical (1st among WR’s), 10-3 Broad Jump (tied for 3rd among WR’s), a all-time Combine record 6.45 3 Cone Drill, and 4.09 20 Yard Shuttle (2nd among all WR’s). In spite of those great numbers, Long went undrafted in 2010, was signed as an UDFA by the 49ers, but only lasted a week in training camp (maybe it was a medical problem with his knees, or just bad hands).
Both Harvey and Long were projected to be early 6th round picks.
2 Examples Of How Badly The Combine Can Hurt A Prospect:
Wake Forest MLB John Abbate entered the draft as a junior, and listed at around 6-1, 240, with an expected high 4.6 40 time, he was expected to be a late 1st or 2nd round pick in 2007, until the Combine. his Combine was a desaster, measuring 5-10, 231, with a 5.00-40 time. He fell out of the draft, was signed as a UDFA by the Texans as a FB, and only spent 1 year in the NFL, on the Texans Practice Squad.
Oklahoma St. WR Adarius Bowman (6-3, 223) was projected as a late 1st round pick after he finished 4th in school history with 127 catches, and was even compared to Braylon Edwards. Interestingly, he played with 20/900 vision, until it was discovered in 2007, and as a result he caught 67 passes that season, for 1,006 yards, 15.0 YPC, with 8 TD’s. Bowman was expected to run a 4.48-40 at the Combine, but only ran a 4.74, and was arrested for pot before the draft. He never played in the NFL.
As a WFU alum, I really wanted Abbate to make it. He was the heart and soul of the team that beat Ga. Tech for the ACC Championship.
In February 2006, 15-year-old brother, Luke, was killed in a car accident on the way home from lacrosse practice. Before his junior season, Abbate asked head coach Jim Grobe whether he could switch his jersey number from 40 to 5 – the number his brother wore. Grobe agreed, and Abbate wore the number throughout his junior season. During the 2006 season, Abbate and his family would hold up five fingers before the start of the fourth quarter as a tribute to Luke. As the season progressed, Abbate’s teammates, Wake Forest fans, and even fans of opposing teams began holding up five fingers as well—a tradition that would garner much media attention during the Deacons’ successful year.- wikipedia
"Love is like a booger. You keep picking at it until you get it, then wonder what to do with it." : Author Unknown
When I started reading this quote from wiki....
It reminded me of this tragedy. I was rooting for him as well. I’m a UNC guy, but WFU is always my second team.
by Derek Leazer on Feb 12, 2012 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
A Movie Has Been Made About That Season, Focused Mostly On Abbate And His Family
I can’t remember the title, but it was on TV a few times in the last 2 months.
by PanthersRoar on Feb 12, 2012 9:39 PM EST up reply actions






















