Why draft Brockers or Still?
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 9:40 AM EST
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PrintI keep up with the mock drafts, and the Dre K news that came out this week is a little unsettling for us if we're looking at him. But, then, is it really? At best, if we're truly enamored with the prospect, we could use a Trent Richardson-hungry team like Cincy to trade back to the middle of the first round (where Dre K will still be available) and pick our third round pick back up. That would be considered a huge win for us if we were able to get that pick back AND land the guy we wanted anyway. That said, I always thought Alshon Jeffrey or Melvin Ingram are the pick here, even though I pull for the Chapel Hill Carolina instead of Columbia.
As for the DT's, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with either one of these players - to be completely honest, I haven't been evaluating this position for the reasons I'm about to lay out. They're probably both great, and both seem to be able to get push up the middle...however, does another defensive tackle fit into the hybrid 3-4 we're supposed to be building?
Reason #1 to stay away from the interior defensive line: our draft position. From what i know of this draft field, neither one of those guys commands a look in the top ten. I think the most important reason we stay away from Still and Brockers is because they're not good value where we're at.
More after the jump...
Let's be honest with ourselves, no one on the interior is the kind of standout guy that can come in and change the game right off the bat the way you have to to be deserving of a top ten pick (QB's aside). Still has had injury issues, and will have to make the jump to fighting against big, skilled guards in the NFL. This will take time. Brockers, even more so. What is he, like 21? It'd take time to bring that guy along, as well. If he ends up being outstanding it's worth the wait, however...
Reason #2: A penetrating defensive tackle isn't that important in the scheme we're building. Here again, assuming that I am tapped into what the coaching staff wants to do, but it seems to me like anytime there's a chance to pick someone new up we're looking at that flex 3-4 mold to get a guy. That puts more emphasis on the nose tackle to blow up the center, occupy a double team and hold the point of attack. That doesn't really call for the Terrell McClain type to be able to dance into the backfield and make open-field tackles. How much more sense does a guy who can step into the role we had Charles Johnson playing last year (stand-up on third down and play end on first and second). In that defense, the penetrating DT is going to move out to end in pass rush situations more often than not. In four linemen sets, Greg Hardy can actually move inside to play that position, as can Johnson. That seems ideal to me.
Reason #3: All the investment we have in the DT position as it is. We went out and blew our wad on Ron Edwards, who I believe Ron Rivera knew what he can get out of him and will next year. We've got a pair of third round draft picks we're bringing along, in Fua and McClain, who really fit the mold of what we need even if they got thrown to the wolves last year. After that, you have Ogemdi, who Rivera is very high on, and the two guys who we got the most production out of last year, in Andre Neblett and Jason Shirley, and finally big spoon Frank Kearse who looks like a nice young prospect. That's almost too much, folks, especially when you consider all those guys, except Ogemdi and Edwards, will be entering their second or third year. It's an embarrassment of riches comparable to our offensive line, assuming any of those guys come along. Then again, it could just be a junk heap. Does that junk heap hurt us as bad when we get Beason back in the middle, add an end rusher and cover better in the back? I think we'll find out soon.
Okay, so at this point I'm assuming I've convinced you guys we should build up our defense on the edges and in the backfield before addressing the interior line...so where do we go? If we're going to get anywhere near running a 3-4, I think a pair of linebackers with upside will be in order through the draft and free agency. The Steve Wilks hire makes me feel better about our DB's, and we've got to get him his guys. The first pick would be perfect there, but Dre K makes that more convoluted. I hope we can capitalize on this news.
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clarification
in reason #2, i didn’t mean draft another charles johnson. i know it reads that way. i do think it’s important to have a guy that can do either, but i’d lean more towards standing up being his strength if i added a player to the weakside the way i’m talking about…
One request...
Please use proper capitalization when you write a fan post.
It’s great information, and I’m going to promote it to the front page because I took the time to capitalize all the words that should have been…but in the future please don’t type 800 words in all lower case letters.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
No caps.
Is better than ALL CAPS. But still a valid suggestion.
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by PanthersPaul on Jan 19, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
It is better than all caps...but it's still wrong.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
all right, all right...
damn, you’re worse than newspaper editors, haha. for you guys, i’ll change the style up. i want yall to be able to enjoy my thoughts:)
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
No, not really.
It’s just that if you want to be taken seriously (and not come across as a bumbling crazy person) then you should at least use proper capitalization and punctuation.
Like I said, your content is good…but we only promote posts to the front page that don’t require a lot of work to edit, and going back and fixing every word that should be capitalized when it’s 800 words with no capitalization is a lot of unnecessary work.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
much appreciated.
i understand now. i’ll look out. i actually have a print journalism degree, haha. i went to school with armanti, can and will clean it up. i’m just in the habit of doing that on internet stuff.
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
Wow
I do not have a journalism degree and I can’t stand to write like that. It should pain you to not use punctuation.
"What up? We're three cool guys looking for other cool guys who wanna hang out in our party mansion. Nothing sexual. Dudes in good shape encouraged. If you're fat, you should be able to find humor in the little things." Again, NOTHING SEXUAL
"I'd rather jerk off a tiger in a phone booth than draft Cam"
-Mel Kiper, Jr.
you guys are like a bunch of pirahnas
by chop goes da weazel on Mar 31, 2011 12:32 PM PDT
by MikeTrain on Jan 19, 2012 11:29 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
nah, i've always been more thought-driven.
i’ll miss a word or two here and there because i’m plowing through. that doesn’t hurt my feelings either. i like ideas, and i’ve never been married to charles dickens as an intellectual father, to say the least.
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
As do I
However, I was taught that proper communication of ideas requires adherence to standards of the print medium. If we eliminated all the things like paragraphs, punctuation, and all the appropriate rules that follow, we would essentially have nothing but word-vomit that is incredibly painful to read through.
I'd like to add, as someone looking to get a print journalism degree in a few years.
The reader doesn’t have any obligation to read what you write, it’s up to you to make it appealing for him. Whether that’s as simple as proper punctuation and capitalization or as difficult as a heart-rending lede, it’s your duty to make your piece look presentable. It’s simply a matter of respect, if you want the reader to respect you and your ideas, you ought to have the decency to respect the reader by properly presenting your ideas. Just my two cents on the whole thing.
Yes I'm a dude.
by Flowing Willow on Jan 19, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
that's going a bit far
just because i didn’t capitalize the first words of sentences and names you think i’m ready to throw out paragraphs and comma’s? this is so far from what i wanted to talk about,. lol:)
i agree
i often write in all lower case. if someone doesn’t take these words seriously, I wouldn’t care. i can punctuate one sentence and not the next. if i was doing a fanpost, however, i would use proper punctuation
by usana_gaines on Jan 19, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
rabble rabble
seriously i dont know why anyone wouldcare about properpunction its so overrated who needs it
I kinda like power running football though. It’s iike a bloody violent ballet…
When it was working it was a thing of beauty to me. - Vagus
(Please note that from now on I shall only refer to Cam as "The Newt" and Rivera as "BAMF")
Jerry Richardson: "Bitch slapping the NFL one signing at a time" - MMA_Pitbull
by The Duke Dude on Jan 19, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
yup (burp)
i don’t care about the man and his rules. i just wanna play rock’n’roll (e chord tweak!!!!!)
MS Word
You could copy and paste the whole thing to MS Word, highlight the whole text, hold down the shiftkey and press F3, and that would change the entire article to sentence case, so every word after a period would be capitalized.
And I do agree about the capitalization. I often write all in lower case, but I usually don’t write too much, and very seldom do I post fanposts.
by usana_gaines on Jan 19, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
thanks for the tip.
punctuation was never in jeopardy, by the way. someone just took off with that. it was only upper cases. i didn’t do that. have had my ass handed to me about it, as with the 3-4. maybe i’m wrong there, but i’m still soooo right about all else, haha
Three things:
1) Capitalization is part of punctuation.
2) I’m not “handing you your ass”…I’m just trying to be helpful. As an editor, I feel it’s my duty.
3) You’re on your own re: the 3-4. :-)
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
no prob.
i’m not upset, i just thought it sounded like i don’t break up sentences or provide for pauses, haha. didn’t want to appear to advocate anarchy (i am not a domestic terrorist) lol. i’ll capitalize stuff for my posts from now on. i promise. panther’s honor.
No, it wasn't that at all.
That’s why I made it a point to say (at least twice, if not more) that the content was fine, save for the lack of capitalization.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
thanks bruh. again.
i appreciate you and hate if i came off out of the way. i really love your work and appreciate the opportunity to discuss my fave team with other like-minded (and not so much) folks. i’ll do better. sorry, it went off to that place:)
But if you just paste it back into the SBN editor, it screws up the formatting.
You have to switch to “HTML View”, paste it, switch back to “Visual View”, re-do the paragraphs (because it will be one block of text) and then post it.
So yeah, it’s just easier to type it properly the first time. :-)
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
I mean... proper capitalization and grammar should be expected from anyone who wants their readers to take their work seriously
I’ll put it this way, I would NOT have read this is it were in all lower case.
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Agreed 100%.
I’ll be honest byline…the only reason I clicked on it was to delete it. When I saw the title the way you had it originally I thought “Here’s just another whack job we must draft WR post.”, and when I clicked it I saw what you wrote and decided it was worth keeping as long as it was formatted properly.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
very kind. i appreciate you letting it go.
i didn’t know we rolled like that, haha. thanks for keeping it:) i’m kind of a “we must draft a lb” whack job instead. in all fairness, i just love linebackers and there always my jump-off point come draft time. but with td hurt up and connor on the way out and a former linebacker as hc – this just might be the year for my thoughts to matter, lol!!!
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
LBs and TEs are often the meat and potatoes of a football team.
They’ll be the guts of most special team units and do the dirty things that often go unnoticed or under-appreciated.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
a man after mine own heart:)
yeah, and they’re versatile enough to fill different roles. now with applewhite on the team i love that back and forth in the front seven. want them to build on that in our base. not everyone is bout it-bout it, but i am
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
Jesús Cristo de Nazaré
That created an unexpected shit-storm. Glad we all got the grammar session out in the open, now we can return to talking football.
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My 44' make sure all yo' kids don't grow
by PanthersPaul on Jan 19, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
And I'm glad you enjoyed the grammar session.
I’m just a man…doing his job….the job that he’s not paid to do, but does it anyway because he loves this website and enjoys the people here (well…most of them).
You’re welcome.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
:)
For that, we thank you.
Follow me on Twitter
My 44' make sure all yo' kids don't grow
by PanthersPaul on Jan 19, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
Screw the Panthers football talk...
let’s rename the website Cat Scratch Writer and have debates concerning proper writing techniques, like when to use an “…” properly.
Welcome to the Cam Cave
Um, ok...
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
My poor attempt at humor :P
Welcome to the Cam Cave
lol oh ok
You could have put “/kidding” at the end of it…..
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
This is the guy you would want
DeMarcus Ware
Failure to prepare is preparing to fail.
We are what we repeatedly do. Therefore, excellence is not an act, but a habit.
I keep hearing 3-4.
This is a 4-3 defense. We might use a true 3-4 four or five times a game. You don’t draft players for a fit you’ll use 7% of the time.
And if we do want to use the 3-4, we’ll need a real NT. We don’t have one. Still and Brockers are 2, 3, or 5 techniques. So if we do go DT I think it’ll be in the second round, or we’ll try to trade back into the twenties and get Powe or Ta’amu.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
You're Right
They said they would use some 3-4 looks. Not change the base defense.
by PainBringah on Jan 19, 2012 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
Rivera
Ron,aka BAMF, has run the 3-4 most recently. Carolina at one point ran the 3-4 defense. Im believe when Capers was coach. I believe Wilkes will come in and take the reigns from McDermott. The we will have another def coach with 3-4 experience. Look for us to transition to a 3-4 or at the very least use some sord of hybrid. but you will surely see the 3-4 formation be used much more often next year.
Failure to prepare is preparing to fail.
We are what we repeatedly do. Therefore, excellence is not an act, but a habit.
Wilks is the DB's coach...he's not taking over for the DC
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
I would like to get Poe or Ta'amu.
You know I like my DT’s to be of the “big fat fatty” variety.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Chapman intrigues me, too. Too bad about his knee and junk. But if you can still be immovable on one leg…well damn. He’s probably only 325 (only, lol) but he’s got the ‘poundage per inch’ you look for….preemptive TWSS.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
LOL
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Fat bottom DTs...
make the rockin’ world go ’round!
"When you do something you love you don't have to work a single day in your life... I still haven't worked a single day in my life!" ~Carlos Santana
by Panther4Life!!! on Jan 19, 2012 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
hahaha
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
i agree...
but those situational looks are going to be vastly important to say, stopping the best offense of all time from this year when we play them twice next year. i’m with you on nose tackle, though i suspect they plan on plugging in edwards. i’m with you 100 percent, but i see more emphasis needed on the pass rushing linebackers. being able to move them all around and create different matchups is just the icing on the cake.
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
We don't need pass rushing linebackers...we run a 4-3 defense.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
i agree to disagree.
honest, it seems out-of-character for us to sit back and cover on defense. unless you got a 7 or 8 guy rotation, you ain’t getting pressure with your front four. not many teams that do. it would take years to build it like that. we need a lb who can hit the passer worse than just anything in front seven. that’s my story. i’m sticking to it:) you may not agree, and i ain’t trying to make ya:)
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
You're free to disagree...
But 4-3 defenses don’t use “pass rushing LB’s”…the LB’s are there to cover the TE and help in run support, not rush the passer (save for blitzes).
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
i see us as blitz-happy.
i think that’s where we’re going with it UNLESS we do get one of these guys and i’m caught sleeping. you gotta get pressure. brees will murder you. when you get to ryan, you see what happens. if it takes blitzing, i think we’ll go there. somebody’s got to move that guy, though. i don’t know if a rookie 3-technique is that guy next year and i want to watch another super bowl with us in it next year.
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
I see us as blitz-happy too...
But I don’t see us getting where we need pass-rushing OLB’s in a 4-3 defense…those guys have to cover TE’s and stop the run too, not just rush the passer.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
I think we are going for a versatile edge rusher.
The beating that Rodgers and Brees took is a fantastic reason for this team to root out the best pass rusher available. Knock em’ on their ass!
Welcome to the Cam Cave
But linebackers with a solid pass rush ability would be valuable in a Jim Johnson defense.
I don't always fail, but when I do...
I do it awesomely.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Jan 19, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
Fair point.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
We have to aquire the other pieces that will allow us to run a JJ defense.
Last year we ran a vanilla ice defense.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
Sure, but three of those vital pieces were on IR.
We’re not that far from having the talent in place.
I don't always fail, but when I do...
I do it awesomely.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Jan 19, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Even with them back...
1 CB, 1-2 S, 1 LB, 1-2 DT
We have four holes. Up to six. We have to be much better on the back end if we want to bring extra rushers.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
By my count we need
a starting cornerback, a starting safety and ideally a starting caliber DT. We don’t need to transform into a top 5 defense by next season, we just need to be middle of the pack.
I don't always fail, but when I do...
I do it awesomely.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Jan 19, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
This
And I feel it’s my optimistic obligation to add that these players (CB, SS, DT) could be on the roster already…. Though I will add I put the positions in the order of my confidence that said player is already on the roster
"One step at a time"
Yeah, well, that's not too far from my point of view.
You say three I say four. The fourth being an outside ‘backer. If we want to put Thomas Williams, Jordan Senn or Omar Gaither in there (or use a committee) I’d be okay with that.
I’m not trying to be argumentative here, but I’ll disagree about where we need to be on defense. Until we have an offense that can score with Brees and Brady, we need a better than average defense. Cam and the offense will get there, but it may be another year or two before they reach that level.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
And here's where I'm coming from on an average defense
If we had held our opponents to less than 20 points a game, we’d be 12-4. To get to that record I looked at how many points we scored each game and gave our opponent 20 points. We would have won 12 games in that scenario.
I realize that’s not a prefect way of doing things, but it gives an idea of where we need to be on defense, and I figure our offense will be a little more efficient at scoring points next year.
I don't always fail, but when I do...
I do it awesomely.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Jan 19, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I'm with you there.
I guess I’m taking it a bit further and trying to envision us beating the Saints, Pats, 49ers, Ravens, Giants, and Packers.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
New England had the 15th best scoring defense at 20.5 PPG...
If we did that, we’d be anywhere from 10-6 to 12-4 (we scored 21 points twice, and those games could have went to OT…assuming we gave up 20-21 points each time…and anything can happen in OT).
So, we don’t have to have a top-5 defense…I want one, but it’s not necessary as long as the offense can continue to average 24 points per game or more, and the defense can improve from giving up 26.8 PPG to only giving up 21 PPG or less.
TL;DR : “If you score more points than you give up, you’ll win more games.”
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
I don't think top 5 is a reasonable expectation regardless of who we add/subtract
What I’m saying is: if we want to win a super bowl in the next three years (while Cam is still ascending to his prime) we will need a top 12 defense. Plus, we are not the Patriots on offense—yet. So using their defense as an example is to intimate that we are their equal offensively, which I would have a hard time agreeing with at present.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
They gave up 20.5 PPG....we scored 25 PPG.
We already have a good enough offense to handle a defense that only allows 20 PPG.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
And just to throw it out there...NE averaged 32 PPG.
So they averaged a touchdown more than us, and average giving up a touchdown less. If we can cut out one touchdown per game from our opponents, we’d be a winning team, so long as our offense doesn’t falter.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
In response to both comments...
Yes, but I’m talking about winning a super bowl. In order to win the division, first and foremost, we need to improve our defense substantially. Five points would be a start. But even with that we are a 10-6 team who either misses the playoffs or is eliminated early on because we can’t get that stop.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
I know...but we have to crawl before we can walk. :-)
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
In other words:
I see a rather sizable difference between being a playoff team and a super bowl contender. There is still a wide margin between say, Cincy and New England (or Baltimore).
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
paea was my guy last year.
but, we weren’t there b/c of the armanti trade. think he got hurt. it’s really kind of a crap shoot.
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
In two or three inconsequential games, sure. Kind of been the same story for years…
We’re so starving for even remotely decent DT play, when we see a few flashes we anoint.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
They weren't inconsequential for Shirley.
I agree that it wasn’t a large enough sample to decide if Shirley can get it done on a consistent basis, however Marvin Lewis trained D-lineman are generally above average. Therefore, I’m leaning more towards Shirley being a great find, and not to be dismissed.
Welcome to the Cam Cave
agreed, in a short stint of action
that guy is the best of em to me. i hesitate to say b/c of small doses, but i like him
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, I dont get this whole idea of this supposed hybrid scheme
any 3-4 we do run will be a rarity.
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Rivera has said that he wants an aggressive 4-3 with 3-4 tendencies.
But, I think that just means he wants to hang on to guys like Applewhite, and drop CJ into 3-4 LB occasionally. I highly doubt we’re going to draft defensive players to switch to a 3-4 defense.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Exactly. Without going through a whole full-fledged conversion, we just need guys who are servicable
And I think we have got a decent stable of those guys, we need a couple more pieces, but I think it will mainly come from guys meant for a 4-3 that may have a skill or two that fits the 3-4
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Agreed...
All we really need is a big fat fatty NT who can play in a 3-4 and we’ve got the pieces to do what Rivera wants.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Brockers COULD be that guy. I seriously think he could safely add another 30 lbs. without losing any ability
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Isn't Jason Shirley (6'5", 345) Brockers all grown up?
…and experienced, to boot?
If you think Shirley can play at a high level too.
But consider me skeptical of a guy that’s played on three teams in two years to suddenly be “the guy”. I think that we’re just so starved of anything but completely shitty DL play that anyone looking borderline decent is going to be exalted to star status.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Jan 19, 2012 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
+1
Shirley may be a Brockers equivalent in size… but the way Brockers has manhandled the best of the best in college football at such a young age tells me that he has “special player” written all over him
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Shirley is what you only HOPE Brockers can expand his frame to.
And Shirley manhandled NFL Centers and Guards, not college boys.
Look, I like him too. And I'm not sold any ANY prospect at this point.
Wouldn’t you think that there’s a reason he was available in November? Now people come from nowhere, sure, and ascend to NFL stardom, but we’ve seen this movie before, bigd. I don’t think you can ever have enough quality defensive lineman.
Look at the Giants…they sign every DT they can in free agency. They get it. And every year they win on the strength of their DL. They know what to look for. Our staff has not proved that they can find and groom quality interior defensive lineman. That means that if you want to be great in that position, you’ve gotta find a guy who looks good to a blind man.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
Yup
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Ah, I think you guys just think Brockers sounds more macho than Shirley.
And it does.
But I disregard draft selection order, and college pedigree, in favor of heart and performance shown on the NFL field.
How else to explain numerous undrafted and overlooked players, who, such as Arian Foster, can ball with the best of them?
Brockers MIGHT have superior production, I grant you. But Jason Shirley showed he already does.
As for your point about overstocking, for depth and platooning fresh bodies each series: I see the logic there. But our Round 1 pick should be for a guy who can immediately step in, start, and improve dramatically over what he’s replacing.
Well, I don't care what your name is. It could be Tab Turdface for all I care.
(I know, that was random.) Back to the point: Shirley looks like he could be a good player. In the last four games of the season, we allowed 126 rushing yards per game. The average during the season was 130. So, no, I don’t think our problems at DT are over just because a couple of guys made a few plays late in the year when every team has backups and guys that signed off the street playing everywhere.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
I'm going to change my sn to Tab Turdface
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
LOL
I don’t know why that was the first ‘name’ to come to mind.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
I wasn't going to ask...
Because I was afraid you’d answer. :-)
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
turd ferguson
on the old celebrity jeopardy on snl, that was burt reynolds aka, haha
by bylinebrown on Jan 22, 2012 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
What 3 teams? What 2 years? And he HAS played at a high level.
He played for the Bengals in 3 games, in 2008, and with the Panthers, in 4 games, this year. He’s been languishing on Practice Squads, and having gotten a chance this year, because of all the IR casualties we had, he took advantage of it.
I’ve compared him to all the prominent NTs in the league, most of whom you guys (some of you, not saying you, Jake) are wetting yourselves over, despite the fact 3 of them (Hampton, Garay, Edwards) are old and used up.
Do the figures lie?
You can’t have it both ways. If you pooh-pooh what I’m saying with the argument that he hasn’t played in the NFL enough to judge, I’d remind you that Brockers and Still haven’t even SEEN the NFL – and they might just be as raw and green and confused as Fua and McClain were.
In 4 games, Shirley had 2 and 1/2 sacks, and forced a fumble. Give him his due. I’ll bet that Rivera and McDermott will.
Shirley isn't good.
He had one disruptive game against the Texans. That’s it. He was terrible at DT for Seattle, so the Seahawks tried moving him to OG…that didn’t work out.
Panther Pride 'till I die.
Exactly
This would be a great article if we were using the 3-4 most of the time but Rivera has said the opposite. We are a 4-3 team (right now) so that calls for a different type of DT. Besides, the trenches is where games are won and lost. And just as we saw last weekend, defenses win playoff games. So because of that solidifying out DL to a level of the mid-2000’s must be a priority. The author is right about a couple things though. We do have a surplus of DT on the roster. Because of that and our salary cap issues, I think Hurney and Rivera need to and probably will take a long hard look at them and decide who we think will help us be successful in the future…and dump the rest. If they feel they can get about four or five good DT out of the lot (ex. Edwards, Fua, McClain, Neblett, Kearse) then I agree that a good DB and providing depth to the OL and other areas (WR, backup QB, etc.) should be the focus of the draft and FA. BUT if the DL is going to get blown off the line as a RB gashes us for 130’s per game EVERY game next year, what difference does it make if we have the next Revis or not. Teams won’t need to pass it. Besides the best way to beat Cam is to keep him off the field. So teams are going to run a lot on us next year anyways. Let’s get a potent run defense and go from there.
an articulate one:)
well put, kemo sabe. add beast linebacker to your list of needs and i’m there with you all the way
Not stressed about the pick...
I’m cool with Kirkpatrick or Brockers. Still doesn’t have enough mean machine for my liking. The way I see it, there are enough good CB’s and DT’s prospects where we are solid going either way.
With all the hints that had been dropped by the staff
I am thinking they are going try to get some long term help for Cam. I know we are WR heavy on the books, and I would love to see Edwards, Pilaras, and Gettis, have great carrers but to be forewright it is not looking like we have a long tern number 2, or the eventual heir to Smittys number one spot in four years. Now is the time for them to see about snatching a good WR if they can or sureing up the o-line before it becomes a problem. Yes I would like the next Gilbert Brown as our Mc Fatty but with our history a WR is more than beliveable but please let us stay away from USC
I am a proud supporter of troll hunting.
Nah
but I don’t think his weed charge affects his draft grade. It will probably trigger clauses in his contract.
by PainBringah on Jan 19, 2012 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
+1
Unless he trips up again before the draft, i think this charge will be a non-issue as far as where he gets selected.
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Before last year there would be no chance in us takeing him, but
with the new attitude of takeing chances and chancy players it is not out of the question. The question would be will he get his head on straight or become the next Adam “Pacman” Jones.
I am a proud supporter of troll hunting.
by bigred28655 on Jan 19, 2012 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
i think he drops...
they cut wilson, but that was performance-based. we might work to get him, but i doubt we stand pat and draft. he has some question in coverage anyway. not deficiency per se, but question
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not too worried about our first pick
However, I am intrigued by who our second rounder will be. One mock (drafttek.com, SP?) had us drafting Alshon Jeffrey. If that’s the case, we might be able to have our cake and eat it too.
Integrity first. Service before self. Excellence in all you do. -- USAF Core Values
by Disciple of Carolina on Jan 19, 2012 10:46 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I will be utterly shocked and appalled if Alshon Jeffery makes it to the 8th/9th pick of the 2nd round.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
No...I'll be surprised if he's still on the board that far into the draft.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
So if he is there, you wouldn't want him?
The funny thing about mock drafts is that everyone of the is different…save for the #1 overall.
Integrity first. Service before self. Excellence in all you do. -- USAF Core Values
by Disciple of Carolina on Jan 19, 2012 11:00 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think he means with the 6'4 fram and good hands and speed it would be foolish for
him to drop so far, or lesser players to be chosen before him. Of course sometimes players do drop, and we might get lucky but he is uninjured and no majior off the feild issues as far as I know. but I am just getting into this years draft class lol. i certianly would take him even if it is a little high in the first.
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by bigred28655 on Jan 19, 2012 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
He doesn't have good speed.
Not from what I’ve seen.
No doubt he’ll run a 4.4 at the Combine though.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
He looks slower than he is. He's got decent speed.
Sure, he’s not a track star, but at 6’4" he doesn’t have to be.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
I suspect that J. Baldwin looking like a miss doesn't help Jeffery.
The size and speed comparison are relevant when it comes to teams playing copy cat.
Welcome to the Cam Cave
Height makes speed deceptive, most do not see Cams speed for his height until he is past them lol.
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by bigred28655 on Jan 19, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
or dragging them
just ask the Bucs’ secondary
Integrity first. Service before self. Excellence in all you do. -- USAF Core Values
by Disciple of Carolina on Jan 19, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
I say this from a non-SC perspective (I honestly didn't watch SC much at all this year, but watched a decent amount last year)...
and Jeffrey just gives me that eerie gut feeling that its DUI 2.0 just waiting to happen (not because of off field issues, just on field comparison). Maybe its just the similar skill set throwing me off…
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
by Tomthehomer on Jan 19, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
Glad I'm not the only one who made that link to another USC player.
Jeffery would be a very productive redzone weapon, but we have TE’s and a running game for that.
Yes I'm a dude.
by Flowing Willow on Jan 19, 2012 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
we've been used and abused....
it’s hard to fall for another wide receiver in these parts, but hey! maybe they’re not all alike.
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not opposed to taking a flyer on a WR later on in the draft, but Jeffrey just hasn'tgiven me that "He'll do this on Sunday's consistently" vibe that other top WRs have in the past...
but its pure gut feeling at this point lol I’d have to watch more of him from this year before passing final judgement
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
Of course I would want him. I don't think he will fall that far.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
If he does fall
I want Carolina to jump on him like a fat kid on a cupcake.
Integrity first. Service before self. Excellence in all you do. -- USAF Core Values
by Disciple of Carolina on Jan 19, 2012 11:22 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don't want to eat Alshon Jeffery
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Ohhh yaaa
I am a proud supporter of troll hunting.
by bigred28655 on Jan 19, 2012 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
LOL
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
I would ask where the cupcake is
but nevermind
Integrity first. Service before self. Excellence in all you do. -- USAF Core Values
by Disciple of Carolina on Jan 19, 2012 11:55 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Team will overlook his red flags methinks. Super talent.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
AJ has better talent
Best hands I’ve seen in Columbia… Including Sterling Sharpe, Sidney Rice, Kenny McKinley etc. Basically he has some of the best hands I’ve ever seen in college.
"What up? We're three cool guys looking for other cool guys who wanna hang out in our party mansion. Nothing sexual. Dudes in good shape encouraged. If you're fat, you should be able to find humor in the little things." Again, NOTHING SEXUAL
"I'd rather jerk off a tiger in a phone booth than draft Cam"
-Mel Kiper, Jr.
you guys are like a bunch of pirahnas
by chop goes da weazel on Mar 31, 2011 12:32 PM PDT
by MikeTrain on Jan 19, 2012 11:33 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
THANK YOU!!!
so many haters knocking this guy. he’s dominant. imagine cam with a jump ball guy. remember the jump pass to smitty? someone to body up and go get the ball is where it’s at for a top-shelf talent like cam:)
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
Fuller
I think we would be better off taking him out of A&M also a big body and no ones has used the lazy label on him as of yet.
by allthatremainsstillowns on Jan 19, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
Fuller had a major regression this year. He wasn't even the #1 WR on his own team.
Cam Newton, when a reporter asks him who will win the Heisman Trophy on Saturday: "I'll tell you Sunday."
by Son of a Newton on Jan 19, 2012 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
ya
Fuller dropped a lot of balls this year. Before the year I liked him but now I wouldn’t use anything before a 4th.
by JStewart28 on Jan 19, 2012 7:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Agreed.
Cam Newton, when a reporter asks him who will win the Heisman Trophy on Saturday: "I'll tell you Sunday."
by Son of a Newton on Jan 19, 2012 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
I certainly enjoyed his highlights.
Welcome to the Cam Cave
give me this.
i know a lot of you don’t see the hybrid defense as a compelling enough argument, will you give me a nose tackle through free agency would be a world better than throwing sticks on the pile though. we haven’t hit on it in awhile, if we don’t de-emphasize it, then let’s get a proven commodity and FIX the problem, know what i mean verne?
I'm all about getting a NT by whatever means.
And I would like to see multiple looks from the defense.
Now, I hate saying “but,” but with that said, guys like CJ, Hardy, Beason, TD, and Anderson are 4-3 guys.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
i fully agree with what you are saying about not needing another 20-23 yr old DT but
not about the 3-4 argument. I hope that the greater point doesn’t get covered up with typo’s and side arguements again but…I think 3-4 needs to be addressed as it keeps coming up. We are a 4-3 team, our starters are 4-3 players. We bring in backups that are considered 3-4 guys, not to switch, in my opinion, but because they are versitile. As a BACKUP, versitility is a good thing and it enables us to give different looks during a game.
Yeah.
Maybe, sign a undrafted NT.
Jimmy Clausen for president, and Aramnti Edwards for vice-president
Umm..what about Edwards
Edwards is a 4-3 NT and so is Fua.
my point exactly.
we already have investment there. throwing one of the top two picks on that part of the field is insane in my opinion. that leaves linebacker and db (corner and safety) which need to be addressed AWFULLY. that said, if jeffrey is there get cam another weapon. he’s special.
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Insanity is part of the game, if it weren't, Cam would be playing somewhere else because we gotz Clausen.
That being said, I don’t see a DT pick in the first round. I’m thinking edge rusher all the way. We get another pass rusher and I would expect the defense to improve mightily.
Welcome to the Cam Cave
now, now...
that’s the heart of the matter. i got faith in the coaches, guys rehabbing and other pieces we’ll add enough to say we’ll be okay and that won’t happen again. it could, though.
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
With our cap situation being like it is, Edwards may be cut.
Fua is a backup. Maybe he’ll get better but right now he’s a 10-15 snap guy.
Its just that I can trace so many of our defensive issues to the DT position, or lack thereof.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
This
relying on Edwards (who was a decent, but not great DT) coming back full strength as the answer to our interior issues is not sound strategy; we already have the DE talent to make this work, but we need a “blue chip” dt prospect to place in the interior (McClain did show improvement over the season so he may yet become a good piece of the puzzle)….
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
by Tomthehomer on Jan 19, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
"Blue chip" prospect really is the question.
I believe that improving the D-line especially up the middle would be the best way to improve the defense because of the pash rush/run stopping they provide. The problem is the guys in the draft don’t come accross as “blue chipish” or better than what we already have. That’s why I tend to lean more towards Kirpatrick, or even trading back for Brown. Maybe Brockers shows us more at the combine to show he is that guy. It could be that I’m just to picky and unrealistic, because the proverbial “white whales” (guys like Vince Wilfork and Haloti Ngata) don’t come around that often. Kind of like when people compare their QB to Manning or Brady, there’s just not a lot of those out there, so work with the next best thing instead.
"You know the new iPhone? It’s faster, more powerful and smarter. It’s revolutionary. Why can’t the quarterback be like that? Why can’t you be a big, tall, fast, quick, strong, smart, mobile quarterback who’s unstoppable?"
-Cam Newton
by carolinapillpusher on Jan 19, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
Based on what I've seen and read about Brockers, he's pretty damn close to "Blue chip"
Obviously we don’t have much to go on given his limited time as a starter before declaring, but his potential is somewhere up in the stratosphere, which makes him an attractive option, especially with the new CBA in place
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
We've got a "whale" right now.
Let’s look at some comparable stats, of notable NTs:
Haloti Ngata, Ravens – (6’4", 330, age 27)
Vince Wilfork, Pats – (6’2", 325, age 30)
B. J. Raji, Packers – (6’2", 337, age 25)
Ron Edwards, Panthers – (6’3", 315, age 32)
Average tackles per game:
Ngata, 2.2
Wilfork, 2.4
Raji, 1.3
Edwards, 1.1
Average sacks per game:
Ngata – .18 (2.9 per 16 games)
Wilfork – .11 (1.9 per 16 games)
Raji – .23 (3.7 per 16 games)
Edwards – .12 (1.9 per 16 games)
Average Forced fumbles per game:
Ngata – .04 (.64 per 16 games)
Wilfork – .29 (4.6 per 16 games)
Raji – (never had a single one in 46 games)
Edwards – .02 (last one was 9 years ago)
So here’s where you might be surprised…
Jason Shirley is 6’5", 345, only 26 years old.
Last year, in very limited duty (all the guys shown above are/were full-time starters, seeing many more snaps per game than Shirley) averaged 1 tackle per game, .62 sacks per game, .25 FF per game.
Slow down on those “small sample” replies. I’m not saying Shirley has had a better career than ANY of the above guys…but I am saying he has, from comparing how he’s started his career – to how they started theirs, THE STRONG CHANCE TO HAVE A BETTER CAREER THAN ANY OF THEM.
He’s taller and bulkier than any of them, and younger than 3 of them, and has shown a ferocity in his limited play to merit a chance at starting NT. I see no way that Ron Edwards is superior to Shirley – he’s shorter, lighter, and 6 years older. I further see no reason to even sign Edwards, now that Shirley has been such a pleasant surprise.
And based on that, I see no reason to take a DT with our first pick. Debate it all you like, but mark my words, we’ve got our NT already, and it ain’t Fua or McClain. Or Edwards.
And I'll compare Casey Hampton and Antonio Garay, too.
Hampton’s 34, played 11 years, the best of which are past him – he’s finished.
Garay, 32, again shorter and lighter than Shirley, has averaged only .17 sacks a game, and has never forced a fumble in his life.
I think Shirley had a great stretch run
But that is all I can say about him right now. I certainly think we can pencil him in as the favored starter going into TC. Even if Edwards does get to hang around, I think there will be an open competition.
I just have a gut feeling about Brockers being a full on game-changer at the position. Not only that, we would not have to thrust him into a starting role initially, as we can groom him in a rotation. That would give him time to add the weight needed and smooth out the rough edges in his game.
The only other guy I see being available when we pick with this kind of ceiling is DeCastro
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Fair enough, Tater.
And I see the potential in Brockers,. I really do.
But I’m hesitate to use our #1 pick on him (or any NT, now), due to my conviction that it’s not a big problem area, and we have so many others.
Of course, what any of us think is meaningless, and the brain trust of the Panthers is paid to make these decisions – and I trust they’ll do so based on better information and personal observations than we can hope to have.
I just pointed those comps out, because I didn’t think a lot of readers had taken due notice of what Shirley did, nor just how damned BIG he is.
I think it's also very telling
That Shirley essentially came off the bench and played well at DT. He had very little to no playing time in his first 3 years and part of that time was spent trying to transition to offensive line (due to a lack of depth on the Oline for the Bengals).
"One step at a time"
if it would take casey hampton...
to get us looking at true best player/best fit, mortgage the farm and get him. don’t deplete the farm looking for another one though.
I would be thrilled if we signed Antonio Garay in free agency.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
i like that, too!
anybody with an sd beside their name is a likely target. but, those re-signings last year are finally showing up. don’t know if we can swing much of anything as far as established players. that could plug it right up, though. for sure.
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Study this, and tell me what Casey Hampton has done the last 2-3 years to merit your enthusiasm.
Sorry, but I think you’re going on what a lot of Pro Bowl voters are fooled by – long time name recognition, fueled by seeing the guy’s name on the TV screen. He’s now no more than a sorry sack of shit.
If you are looking at NTs and wanting statistics, you're looking at the wrong metric.
If you want to see how effective he is, look at their team ranking run defense the last 8 seasons.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
I'm judging their individual performances, not their unit production, which is measurable, but not individually assignable.
In any event, Casey Hampton is over the hill, and will never operate at the level he did 3-4 years ago.
Plus, it’s not only a big fat run stopper to clog the middle that we need – it’s also penetration on pass plays, to counteract the 4 games we play vs Brees and Ryan.
Hampton offers nothing there.
Search 'ERL Hampton'...
I never once said anything about Hampton. I agree, he is 100 and offers nothing in the passing game.
What I’m saying is you can’t judge a NT on tackle numbers.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
He's not 100
His birthday isn't until April
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
yup
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
casey hampton was more an expression
i speak of an established dt, for example. not necessarily him.
by bylinebrown on Jan 22, 2012 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
3 technique
Thats what we need. Disruption — trampling the run behind the line of scrimmage and sacking the QB. I’d pair that with Edwards, Fua, Shirley…..doesn’t matter.
agreed.
is brockers or still that guy? i lean towards not.
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
I firmly believe that Brockers IS that guy
His production in his short college career cannot be denied, and point to a play who is already really good and has not come close to his potential.
I am 100% in favor of taking Brockers with our first rounder. I think he has pro bowl potential, and hasn’t shown anything to suggest he won’t reach it.
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54 tackles, 10 tfl....
and that’s just scratching the surface of his potential? Sign me up!
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
by Tomthehomer on Jan 19, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed.
People point at the Georgia tape and say he’s overrated, but he did a phenomenal job of holding his ground and even getting off the blocks to make some good tackles. That’s a very good Georgia OL too, with a couple NFL prospects on it. Despite his height, he doesn’t give up ground, which is fantastic news for our LB’s. The upside is there to warrant the pick imo.
Yes I'm a dude.
by Flowing Willow on Jan 19, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
I like both players, honestly.
I feel like Still will be a quality starter for a while, too. He’s a bit more seasoned, as he’s had two more years in college football, but as many have said: he may not have as much potential as Brockers.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
That's the only reason I don't want to take Still that high.
I think he’ll be a solid player, but the upside isn’t there. Plus I think Brockers better fits what we currently need in a DT prospect. Still lives in the opponents backfield, Brockers isn’t as explosive in that regard, but he just doesn’t give up ground. That’ll let Shirley/Mclain/Neblett/whomever make plays, along with free up our linebackers to flow to the ball without blockers in their way.
Yes I'm a dude.
by Flowing Willow on Jan 19, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
Brockers can still play in the oppsing backfield
He’ll also be a nightmare knocking down balls at the line of scrimmage. Brockers just seems like the no brainer pick to me. Already very good, and with so much room to grow.
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We throw around the term Brees killer a lot.
With Hardy’s propensity for tipped passes and Brockers height, we may actually be on to something here.
Yes I'm a dude.
by Flowing Willow on Jan 19, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
I like that he's 6'6'', 306 (with room to grow), AND runs a 4.9 40...
that, to me, says there’s more to him than fat and height, but rather he is a well built 306 with the athleticism to become a nightmare on the interior. I’m salivating at the idea of him becoming our long lost Jenkins replacement, because that would basically turn back the clock on our line to its dominant days of 2002-2003 :)
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
My problem with the Georgia video was that he was holding his ground against college O-Lineman..
If he didn’t look dominant against college lineman, then there is very little hope that he will be pro ready.
Cam Newton, when a reporter asks him who will win the Heisman Trophy on Saturday: "I'll tell you Sunday."
by Son of a Newton on Jan 19, 2012 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
He did look dominant.
Some context in that game, it took about a half for LSU to wake up. You could blame that on Les Miles like everyone else in the country, I’ll take Rivera over him any day. Brockers had some rough moments early on, but by the end of the game Georgia had their hands full. He was the definition of disruptive.
Yes I'm a dude.
by Flowing Willow on Jan 20, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
I dunno, I just watched it again, and on a lot of run plays he was just pushed out of the play.
And he rarely made it into the backfield, against college lineman. He wasn’t double teamed for more than 5 plays, and couldn’t win the one on one against the guard. He may have nice intangibles, but he is not pro ready.
Cam Newton, when a reporter asks him who will win the Heisman Trophy on Saturday: "I'll tell you Sunday."
by Son of a Newton on Jan 20, 2012 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
Remember Amobi Okoye
He was picked #10 in Round 1 by the Texans. He was great in college, played all 4 years. The Teaxans let him walk last year.
"Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a good carpenter to build one"
+1
Cam Newton, when a reporter asks him who will win the Heisman Trophy on Saturday: "I'll tell you Sunday."
by Son of a Newton on Jan 19, 2012 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
Remember Haloti Ngata
He was picked #12 by the Ravens. He was great his last two years in college. He’s now arguably the best DT in the NFL.
Or BJ Raji. He was selected 9th by the Packers after three great years in college.
You can’t base a player’s future success off a different player. There are hits and busts in every draft. You can’t say “Don’t draft Brockers because Okoye was a bust.” Brockers is not Okoye.
i hope you're right.
if he’s all-world grab him up. i’ve admitted my ignorance of the guy. i just hesitate. a lot of value we’re throwing at this position. there are a lot of other guys out there i like. a couple i love. this regime doesn’t seem as much of a homer-pick one either. we’ll see.
Doesn't have to be him...
We could go Kirkpatrick and get a disruptive 3 techique later. The Shrine Bowl has some guys that could fill that role for later in the draft.
by PainBringah on Jan 19, 2012 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
truth.
Dre K at 8 or 9 would be a little reach-y for me. don’t get me wrong, i smoke weed. i see nothing immoral about it. that’s a little irresponsible of him to put himself out there like that, though. other teams will pass, so we should get him as low as we can. same thing with burfict to me. we do have a hole in the middle of our draft too.
by bylinebrown on Jan 19, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe you're right
We have no idea what the Panthers talent evaluators think — our big board could be something entirely different than Kiper, McShay, Walterfootball or CBS. But I look forward to seeing how it shakes out.
by PainBringah on Jan 19, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
Like this one...
Acording to this one…the best available will be Dontari Poe:
by PainBringah on Jan 19, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
I've partaken as well....
but I wasn’t risking a multi million dollar a year job to do so. In his situation, while I see nothing morally wrong with what he did, I do see a judgement issue regarding his risk/reward evaluation ability.
As to the hybrid defense, I think Brockers could be an effective NT in both the 3-4 and 4-3
As I stated above, Brockers has a massive frame. I could easily see him bolting on another 30 lbs. without losing any of his ability.
Add to this that Hurney has been actively watching the offensive and defensive linemen during senior bowl practices, and that tells me we are at least considering that position a need. We may indeed be looking his way in the draft.
I look at it this way… if we are going with a DT it will be in the first round. We already have two 2nd year guys on the roster we took in the 3rd round, so picking any one after the first would seem like a waste to me.
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I like that pick...
I think we should go either CB or OLB with the following (2nd rounder)
by PainBringah on Jan 19, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
as long as we get it...
there’s value there too. i’m high on ronnell lewis as our second round pick. corners should last that long too.
Yeah, we need a near elite level player for CB
I don’t see anything on Ronnell Lewis. I’ll read up on him when I have a minute.
Ronnie looks like a borderline first rounder
But he is listed as a 3-4 outside (rush) linebacker. Player comparison – Clay Matthews
im glad dre k acted like a nob
I don’t want us to draft him. I like the look of brockers from what I’ve seen and people have been rating him fairly highly since he declared, that suggests that a top ten pick isn’t a reach… Still on the other hand, I agree… Bit of a reach.
Think we should avoid offence unless its a good line upgrade, can’t have enough good lineman. I hear what bw is saying about the need of a good run stopping fatty, but I’m not opposed to a smaller dt who gets into the back field and is disruptive… In fact that kind of player draws attention away from cj and could really benefit our whole d-line. Wr would be a waste in my mind, we loaded with young players at the position and I’ll think gettis will turn heads next year, another receiver just stunts the development of pilares… And that I will not accept!!!!
Save us Pilares
by LimeyPanther on Jan 19, 2012 1:37 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Rivera was on the Mac attack today
When asked about team needs, after saying that we mainly needed to get healthy, said that adding pieces to the offensive line to protect your QB is paramount.
So, right now we may be leaning toward O-Line help in the first.
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This wouldn't surprise me in the least.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
i was against the idea at first
Cuz I thought we draft martin and I wasn’t so sure that he was the elite prospect everyone seemed to think. When I thought about it though I realised I just liked decastro a lot more on that line and maybe I was being a little harsh on him. Rieff looks very solid and I’ve really come round to the idea of an o-lineman… Still completely against any other offensive player though regardless of bpa… Our d is just soooo bad
Save us Pilares
by LimeyPanther on Jan 19, 2012 3:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Limey Panther
why are you such a fan of Pilares? I’m just curious. Hawaii native or just think the kid has swag?
"One step at a time"
nope, i dont think i could live any further away from hawaii
Coming into the season I was impressed by what I heard from the player organised ota’s. Thomas davies had said that pilares was hands down the fastest player in pad’s doing up-hill sprints. I like his potential playing in the slot, being a former running back I thought we could see a lot of YAC. To be completely honest I thought he would be the perfect compliment to the deep threat of smitty and gettis but things havnt worked out that way so far… I was hopeful after the pre-season td but nanee just got a lot of play time and the coaches obviously didn’t think he was ready… Gotta defer to their better judgement at the end of the day.
Save us Pilares
by LimeyPanther on Jan 19, 2012 3:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Maybe they should consider using him to be the "Darren Sproles-esque" player
I really hope some of the younger WR’s put in their time this off-season and get more opportunities next season. Like you said we have to defer to the coaches judgement but it bothers me that we really only used 3 WR’s all season long.
"One step at a time"
yeah that dissapointed me too
I’ll be more concerned if we draft a wr, got enough talent at that position in my humble opinion. Agree that the younger receivers really need to show their worth (including gettis and lafell)
Save us Pilares
by LimeyPanther on Jan 21, 2012 8:43 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Sounds like
Riley Reiff. Defense would be my first priority but I’m alright with that move.
reiff or martin...
i tend to think like you of late. reiff seems to have more upside, especially since he’s only played oline for a couple years. i am in the “wait on otah” camp after they acted so encouraged after shutting him down, but let it fly. we need that guy and don’t know about the one we have.
Mel Kiper (yes i know) thinks Brockers or Dontari Poe (6’6 350) could make it to the top 10 with a good combine performance. No mention of Still. Also still has us taking Dre at 8/9 although he said it is early and he doesn’t know how the drug chargers will hurt his stock
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"I don't see no ceiling. I don't see no breaking point." - Cam Newton
If Poe's value is seen to be top 10, then we should pull the trigger.
NTs are probably the most sought after commodity after franchise QBs. Notice good NTs never change teams?
If we can plug Poe in there on first and second down and put our opponents in 3rd and 8 instead of 3rd and 3 we’ll see our 3rd down percentage improve dramatically, and we might actually get off the field every now and then.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
yeah i was thinking same. I looked up on it more and he still has Still as his #1 DT but thinks He could have some competition when it is all said and done. IF we go DT id love to get a NT above everything else i just do not know how good Poe is. Likely a reach unless he wows at the combine
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"I don't see no ceiling. I don't see no breaking point." - Cam Newton
Has a Haloti Ngata type build......YES PLEASE
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Memphis-DT-Dontari-Poe-adds-intrigue-to-Dline-class.html
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"I don't see no ceiling. I don't see no breaking point." - Cam Newton
This.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
To be fair
we had a lot of 3rd & 8’s this season. Poor coverage by LB’s allowed almost every 3rd and long to be converted to a TE.
"One step at a time"
We did, yes.
But I’ll take my chances on a 3rd and 8 over a 3rd and 3 any day.
I like to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack.
go defense?
i think it’s a no-brainer outside of a special offensive guy, but big cat said he and other owners want high scoring games. we could be looking for a stop when we need to preserve a 45-38 lead more often than pitch shutouts. in that instance, you need a linebacker you can free up, i feel like. but i tend to feel like that about lb’s.
I'm not sold on Brockers yet. I'd rather have the proven commodity in Kirkpatrick, than the potential greatness of Brockers.
And, I don’t believe that our DT position will improve incrementally if we add another rookie to the fold. The best way to achieve improvement would be signing a Veteran FA, a la Antonio Garay, yet this seems unlikely considering our murky cap situation.
Cam Newton, when a reporter asks him who will win the Heisman Trophy on Saturday: "I'll tell you Sunday."
by Son of a Newton on Jan 19, 2012 6:03 PM EST reply actions
As much as i like Dre he is far from a proven commodity…hell nobody in this draft is really until they get into the NFL. Im sure the Panthers do their homework…in the end im starting to think we go the less glamorous route and go OL. Money is tight and our guys while good are old. If Otah can come back we will have some quality depth and possibly even move him to Guard. Only time will tell its only January
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"I don't see no ceiling. I don't see no breaking point." - Cam Newton
He's not a lock, but he has been receiving serious playing time for 3 years, rather than Brockers' 1 year.
True though, Time will tell, we still have about 3 months until draft night.
Cam Newton, when a reporter asks him who will win the Heisman Trophy on Saturday: "I'll tell you Sunday."
by Son of a Newton on Jan 19, 2012 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
i think with the Pot bust he falls. With Rivera saying Oline is a top priority im thinking Reiff or Martin is the pick. Reiff is the better pass blocker but Martin is a great run blocking tackle with a great IQ being from standford. He also has played tackle a lot longer. Reiff has gone from TE to DT to all american LT. Both would be welcome additions with Otah health concerns and Gross looking over matched at times last year. I think it could come down to coin flip which one we get. If we win the coin toss Reiff if not Martin. Either way solid pick to protect our most valuable player in arguably our history Cam Newton.
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"I don't see no ceiling. I don't see no breaking point." - Cam Newton
OT is definitely under consideration, and if I had to choose between Reiff and Martin, I'd go with Reiff.
Cam Newton, when a reporter asks him who will win the Heisman Trophy on Saturday: "I'll tell you Sunday."
by Son of a Newton on Jan 19, 2012 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
Cam Newton only got one year of PT
We drafted him based on his high ceiling and the scouts dreams of what he COULD become.
I view Brockers in the same light. As yet to be realized potential, but even while slightly raw is still dominating at the highest level of college football. Is Brockers going to revolutionize the position forever? No. But does he show the signs of being a potential top 10 DT at the pro level? I see it.
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I dunno, I don't see Brockers' atmospheric potential right now.
Based on the vibe I got from Rivera’s last presser, as well as some other interviews, I don’t think DT is his biggest concern right now. However, that could be total misdirection.
Cam Newton, when a reporter asks him who will win the Heisman Trophy on Saturday: "I'll tell you Sunday."
by Son of a Newton on Jan 19, 2012 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
It's because he sees he's already got a quality rotation at DT now, with Neblett, Shirley, Kearse, and McClain.
Halfway through the season, we were nowhere with our DTs, but the way the first 3 played, Rivera’s got his eye out in other directions. There are bigger needs to be met.
That's what I think also.
If we give each of those young guys another year in the system, and another offseason to learn their positions, and improve, I think that we could have a solid rotation at DT for the next few years. It may not be as glamorous as choosing a DT in the top ten, but it’ll get the job done.
Cam Newton, when a reporter asks him who will win the Heisman Trophy on Saturday: "I'll tell you Sunday."
by Son of a Newton on Jan 20, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
It may not be
As I posted earlier, Rivera highlighted the need to protect Cam as a priority on the Mac Attack this morning.
I think Brockers would be a great choice. I also think there are several OL who would also be great choices. If Claiborne falls into our laps, he would be a great choice.
At this point, of the names being throw around for our first pick… i cannot advocate the following:
Dre Kirkpatrick, Justin Blackmon, Alshon Jefferey, and no DEs… particularly Coples.
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True, I think OL is a dark horse pick right now.
And as for your personas non gratas; to each his own. :^)
Cam Newton, when a reporter asks him who will win the Heisman Trophy on Saturday: "I'll tell you Sunday."
by Son of a Newton on Jan 20, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
Neither Still or Brockers.
We have not ugraded our pass rush or edge players in to long of a time. This is why if we go D- line with the first pick we need to get a player that can get to the other teams QB in a hurry. I feel there is no true top 10 D-tackle in this draft so if we don’t address the pass rush with a Mercilus or Ingam I would rather spend the pick on the OL. Only one exception is if Claibourne were to slide to us I would take him cause he is a top ten talent.
If it were my call...
I would go defensive tackle. An interior rush will make it easier for Charles Johnson and Greg Hardy. Maybe an another DE into the rotation but certainly not early in the draft. My order would be DT (3 technique), CB, OLB, G, ILB then maybe S
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