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Could a temporary switch to the 3-4 be the answer to Carolina's defensive woes?

Ron Rivera ran a 3-4 in San Diego and had several undersized players on defense. (Photo by Joe Robbins/Getty Images)

As it stands we know the glaring weakness on defense for the Carolina Panthers is at defensive tackle. As it stands Carolina are relegated to waiting on cuts and/or hoping Kentwan Balmer who the team signed off waivers pans out in terms of filling the gaps needed at the position. Conversely, the Panthers have more talent than they know what to do with at the LB spot. 

Clearly the long term goal of the organization will be to run a four man front, but that doesn't mean being intractable while waiting for the personnel to be put in place. Ron Rivera and Sean McDermott both have experience in the 3-4, so why not lean on it temporarily? 

More after the jump

Star-divide

The quest for a true nose tackle

While Sione Fua may have played 3-4 NT at Stanford under Jim Harbaugh it's undeniable he's too small to play the same position in the NFL. As I posited yesterday the signing of Jamal Williams would make immense sense in both a 4-3 and 3-4 scheme.

 

What about Charles Johnson?

Out of the gate it's a hard pill to swallow to have someone of his stature play 3-4 DE, but we really are only looking at a temporary fix here. As a band-aid CJ would do fine dealing with double teams and holding his men up at the LoS. He was doubled almost the entire night against Cincinnati anyway, sometimes even tripled. Furthermore, keep in mind that on numerous occasions in 2010 Johnson played DT on third down anyway, so the leap here isn't as great as it may appear.

 

What happens at OLB?

As it stands we really have two sets of OLBs for a  3-4, they have run stoppers and pass rushers. The former group contains Thomas Davis and James Anderson, while the latter is Greg Hardy, Everette Brown and Eric Norwood. I would suggest playing one unit on 1st and 2nd down, then changing the group for 3rd down to add more pass rushers.

 

What would a depth chart like this look like? 

 

Base defense

NT: Williams/ Irvin

RDE: Fua/ McClain/ Neblett

LDE: Johnson/ Balmer

ROLB: Anderson/ Gaither/ Norwood

ILB: Beason/ Senn

ILB: Connor/ Thomas Williams

LOLB: Davis/ Hardy/ Brown

 

Third Down

NT: Williams/ Irvin

RDE: Fua/ McClain/ Neblett

LDE: Johnson/ Balmer

ROLB: Norwood/ Anderson/ Gaither

ILB: Beason/ Senn

ILB: Connor/ Thomas Williams 

LOLB: Hardy/ Brown/ Davis

 

While I'm definitely not advocating this as a long term answer it is definitely a viable solution to help us in the immediate future.

Comment 65 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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While it would be interesting

to consider, I rather wait-and-see how they do in a 4-3 in a meaningful game. Last year mostly everyone was hyping up Brown etc, then when the regular season came, Brown disappeared etc. How many teams signs a 4-3 DEnd to the amount of money CJ is being payed to move him to 3-4 DEnd?

by adam carter on Aug 30, 2011 10:47 AM EDT reply actions  

Houston Texans

"If ya ain't first, you're last."
- Ricky Bobby's Dad

"There is no evidence that the tongue is connected to the brain."
-Frank Tyger

by KaiserBromley on Aug 30, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh damn, brain fart.

My bad. In that case nobody does.

"If ya ain't first, you're last."
- Ricky Bobby's Dad

"There is no evidence that the tongue is connected to the brain."
-Frank Tyger

by KaiserBromley on Aug 30, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Browns Want To Trade For DE Mario Williams

RotoWorld had the story yesterday (I guess they got the idea from last weeks CSR post), but their suggested trade didn’t seem like enough to me. They seem to think the Texans would trade Williams for the Falcons 2012 1st round pick, along with DE/OLB Marcus Bernard and CB Sheldon Brown.

by PanthersRoar on Aug 30, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Long Term

While I agree that a switch to the 3-4 might help us out this year, I am a little concerned about the long term effects. Our linebacking core is definitely strong, but the main issue on the d-line is youth and inexperience. By switching to a 3-4 we would be taking snaps away from guys like The Kracken, Norwood and McClain, guys that would only play on third downs based on your depth chart above. Personally, I don’t think there’s any way we hoist the Lombardi trophy at the end of this season, so I would like to see us take our lumps and growing pains in the base 4-3 this year. You also have to remember that BAMF has really seemed to tone down the defensive aggressiveness (i.e. blitzing) since the game against the Giants. Run blitzes could really help alleviate the troubles the under tackles have had stuffing the middle.

by DBelt on Aug 30, 2011 10:48 AM EDT reply actions  

While I've always been an advocate of having some 3-4 looks

I’d really rather not. It does make sense given the fact our interior line is crap. But we just signed Balmer who was a complete wash in 3-4 schemes in SF and SEA. Plus it really hurts to have a $70 million five technique 3-4 DE.

"If ya ain't first, you're last."
- Ricky Bobby's Dad

"There is no evidence that the tongue is connected to the brain."
-Frank Tyger

by KaiserBromley on Aug 30, 2011 10:52 AM EDT reply actions  

I like it...

I’ve been thinking about this since those last 2 games. the 3-4 would def help short term. Our LB corps is really strong, and it would be fun to see them on the field at the same time. Nice post James.

Stuuuuuuuuu

by Gnuff on Aug 30, 2011 10:52 AM EDT reply actions  

Intersting idea James

I don’t know how much it would work, but nothing could be worse than the open-gate method we’ve utilized at DT so far this pre-season.

The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace

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by BW Smith on Aug 30, 2011 10:54 AM EDT reply actions  

Don't like Hardy only in for 3rd downs.

His motor needs to be emphasized, not de-emphasized.

by bigdavis on Aug 30, 2011 10:55 AM EDT reply actions  

one reaction

“eww”

This screams trying to create a system to force Brown and Norwood into a softer matchup. Problem is it marginalizes our best playmakers in order to create those soft matchups. The 3rd down tight end would absolutely decimate us and I don’t see run defense improving at all in this setup, which has been the deal breaker. The game plan also relies entirely on a player we don’t have on the roster in Jamal Williams. Non-starter until our current UTs/NT can show promise, which at that point the 4-3 would be better anyway.

by ppalm on Aug 30, 2011 11:01 AM EDT reply actions  

This.

I’d much rather we had a disappointing year on defense because we don’t have the personnel we need, as opposed to having a disappointing year on defense because our coaching staff panicked at the thought of not having the personnel we need, and so decided to change the whole scheme. Maybe if we had been planning this change and had a full offseason to prepare for that, I’d be cool with it. I don’t like the idea of Bamf and company lacking principles, and so, abandoning them at the last minute due to major problems at the line of scrimmage.

"You know you're in Charlotte when every day while you're having lunch in the city you hear ... "GOD Scott Fowler is a retard!"

by The Kackalack Kid on Aug 30, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Very interesting idea, as long as its only temporary

I thought we were supposed to be running some 3-4 looks anyway in a hybrid 4-3/3-4 scheme.
Have we shown and 3-4 yet this preseason?
Rememeber everyone he said TEMPORARY meaning just 2-games maybe.

CAN'T WAIT!
The question is not how far. The question is, do you possess the constitution, the depth of faith, to go as far is as needed? - El Duche

by BEVE on Aug 30, 2011 11:03 AM EDT reply actions  

I'm game

I’m game for the idea for a few games or even fix it up on who we play.

Coach Rivera, is a BAMF..

by Lazy Dog on Aug 30, 2011 11:16 AM EDT reply actions  

I think it would create more headaches than necessary for a short term fix

And we should keep in mind, they would have to learn the 3-4 scheme, which is time they could be using to learn the current 4-3 scheme, which I’m sure they don’t all have a grasp of yet.

IMO, we need to stick to our current plan and only run the 3-4 as a curveball.

This comment section has officially been Tater'd.

by Tater596 on Aug 30, 2011 11:18 AM EDT reply actions  

I think we just need to figure out a way

to stop being pushed off the ball. Our D-Line got pushed around for the entire game against the Bengals. The D-line needs to get lower and incerease their pressure. It just made me sick to watch our entire D-lLine get pushed to the right and left every time they ran the ball.

I’m just not sure switching to a 3-4 will alleviate that.

In situations like this when things are bad, the easy thing to do is fold up the tent, just pack it up and accept it. But winners and people who are successful realize that when things get tough, it’s an opportunity to define yourself. They realize that in this moment, you can do something great. - Jon Beason

by Tarheel Soldier on Aug 30, 2011 11:19 AM EDT reply actions  

Interesting theory but too Late....

Would probably have to be implemented in the offseason… not 12 days before real bullets. Especially with all the “new stuff” they have been cramming in since the CBA got signed.

by docnolz on Aug 30, 2011 11:20 AM EDT reply actions  

Regardless of the 3-4 or 4-3 we have to sign another DT

so why bother making a switch…get a guy and plug him in…is Balmer the answer maybe maybe not. But as pointed out Jamal Williams works in both schemes so…what would be the point of switching to the 3-4 when all our players are most familiar with the 4-3…seems like we be taking a further step backwards on D…thats the last thing we need

by donski17 on Aug 30, 2011 11:32 AM EDT reply actions  

No no no...

You think our D is having to learn a whole new system now?! 3-4 is way different.

Not to mention our linebackers are 4-3 linebackers and too small for 3-4. We also have no NT and you need a good NT. Charles Johnson is also a bit small for a 3-4. We would make Beason, Anderson, Davis, and CJ all worse in this scheme so it makes no sense whatsoever.

No to 3-4. We don’t have the personell period. Our players are 4-3 guys plain and simple. And you don’t make a change that is going to hurt 4 pro-bowl caliber players. Not one of your best ideas James.

by jai6y6 on Aug 30, 2011 11:34 AM EDT reply actions  

No way to the 3-4

I understand the thinking, ( E Brown and Hardy playing at a “better” position for them , Conner on the field more, lack of credible DT’s) But it doesn’t put your best players in the position to do their best work.

It’s like managing a business. You don’t lower your standards to accommodate for your weakest people not being able to do the job well enough. You keep your standards high and demand the low performers step up or you move them out. Will their be more bumps in the road? Yes. Will it be harder in the short term? Yes. Might it take longer than you’d like to get the business to where you want it? Yes. But that is how you build the foundation for a great organization.

by sgtx on Aug 30, 2011 11:46 AM EDT reply actions  

I don’t think we have 3-4 OLBs. With Beason and Connor we have an ideal inside tandem, but Anderson and Davis would be better fits in that weakside MLB spot that Beason would already occupy.

I would rather go to a 4-6 Bear look…something that Rivera is intimately knowledgeable about.

"I don't know whatchu came to do...but IIIIIIIIIIIIII came to praise his name, yeyuss!!

~Reverend Brown, Coming to America

by ERL on Aug 30, 2011 11:46 AM EDT reply actions  

We're talking 1st down. Maybe 2nd down.

He can’t throw if his dick is in the dirt.

"I don't know whatchu came to do...but IIIIIIIIIIIIII came to praise his name, yeyuss!!

~Reverend Brown, Coming to America

by ERL on Aug 30, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

lol

The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace

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by BW Smith on Aug 30, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lmao

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by cedaghost on Aug 30, 2011 1:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

a 4-6 with Mark Ingraham

I have a feeling he is going to butt-f@@k us twice a year for the foreseeable future. Brees is the least of my worries. Michael Turner has also been known to give us a dirty sanchez here and there.

If you can’t stop the run you are dead.

"I don't know whatchu came to do...but IIIIIIIIIIIIII came to praise his name, yeyuss!!

~Reverend Brown, Coming to America

by ERL on Aug 30, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

the power run is so terrifying to us as a fanbase, because we know full and well how dangerous it is.

Scary part is how effective it was with a mediocre QB under center. Now we’re up against the power run with three top-flight QBs.

by ppalm on Aug 30, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah.

Its totally not cool when it happens to you.

I remember Turner having 111 yards in the first half against us in 2009. Luckily he got hurt and we won the game. The writing has been on the wall for some time regarding this defense. I’ve been a persistent butthole (more so last offseason) about our needs there.

We haven’t even been able to find a serviceable veteran to play average ball in one of the DT spots. Well, I guess we did, and then his arm broke off.

"I don't know whatchu came to do...but IIIIIIIIIIIIII came to praise his name, yeyuss!!

~Reverend Brown, Coming to America

by ERL on Aug 30, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

LMAO- this string brought tears to my eyes...

had to go outside the office, and regain my composure!! between Dick in the dirt, and arm falling off….sheeeesh!

by toonman on Aug 30, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Bears 46 defense would be cool...

But I don’t think we have the secondary to pull that off.

The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace

Follow me on Twitter

by BW Smith on Aug 30, 2011 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, we don't.

But it’s more about having a dominant front 7. Wait…

"I don't know whatchu came to do...but IIIIIIIIIIIIII came to praise his name, yeyuss!!

~Reverend Brown, Coming to America

by ERL on Aug 30, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Unless you were suggesting BAMF suit up at OLB and we sign Mike Singletary...

Then it would be a great idea ;-)

The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace

Follow me on Twitter

by BW Smith on Aug 30, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

BAMF is getting closer to DT size. But yes, that would probably make us better at this point. Singletary could pull his pants down to distract everyone and BAMF would roll in and make the tackle.

"I don't know whatchu came to do...but IIIIIIIIIIIIII came to praise his name, yeyuss!!

~Reverend Brown, Coming to America

by ERL on Aug 30, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

LOL

The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace

Follow me on Twitter

by BW Smith on Aug 30, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

The 3-4 Option Would Need To Be Available On Every Play, Not Just 3rd Down

The best way to use a 3-4 would be with the same set of players for 3-4 and 4-3, without giving away the defensive set with several substitutions. Here is how, at 1 DE/OLB Hardy (also Johnson’s backup), Brown, and Norwood, able to play either 4-3 DE, or drop back to 3-4 OLB, and by doing that the UT (McClain 4.82-40) becomes the 3-4 DE on the side the 4-3 DE drops back from. If they want they could even switch sides for DE’s when ever they wish.

Fua doesn’t have the speed (lateral or penetration) to play 3-4 DE, a 5.28-40, 1.77-10, while Irvin ran a 4.96-40, 1.71-10 at the 2009 combine, pre injury, and at 301 pounds.

by PanthersRoar on Aug 30, 2011 11:50 AM EDT reply actions  

Speaking of Irvin

What the hell happened to him? I thought he was impressing in camp but so far he’s been a non-factor in games.

by ambull01 on Aug 30, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think this is truly a viable option

There is an install period for implementing a wholesale change like this. It’s one thing to use it occasionally as a wrinkle, but as a primary D, no thanks. Without very stout D-linemen it will make a team actually worse at stopping the run.

Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing you will be an idiot in the future and common sense is knowing you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

I don't always dress like a pirate...but when I do, I do it in this picture.

by Vagus on Aug 30, 2011 12:15 PM EDT reply actions  

I was thinking about Todd exact same situation the other day

After the last game I thought about asking about this idea. It solves the problem of what to do with our over abundance at linebacker and removes a dt, which is perhaps out biggest weakness. I don’t like the idea of switching out scheme completely but maybe.

by aceofsween on Aug 30, 2011 12:27 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

how Swype got Todd from the I'll never know...

Damn mobile typos… Grumble grumble…

by aceofsween on Aug 30, 2011 1:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

But don't you LOVE Swype, though?

I think every phone I’ll get from now on must have it as a prerequisite.

Newton for '11 ROY!
Walker for '11 ROY!
Biyombo for '11 DPOY!

by Newsinz on Aug 30, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, I do.

Swype really is amazing. I hate that it makes some really dumb mistakes like that sometimes, but it is 10x better than any other touch keyboard.

…As long as you replace the Pre-loaded distribution version with a Beta version… That is the only little problem.

by aceofsween on Aug 30, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't lie ace...you WERE thinking about Todd. ;-)

The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace

Follow me on Twitter

by BW Smith on Aug 30, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

My friends would find that humorous

Only because of my nickname due to a certain butcher in a certain musical.

by aceofsween on Aug 30, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

There goes Balmer getting a chance to play in his natural position again.

It would probably benefit a few players, though (like E. Brown), but in the end, I think it’s too drastic of a change on such short notice. As far as I know, they haven’t even experimented with a 3-4 set at all this offseason. Let’s stick with the devil we know, please.

Newton for '11 ROY!
Walker for '11 ROY!
Biyombo for '11 DPOY!

by Newsinz on Aug 30, 2011 12:28 PM EDT reply actions  

we would suck as a 3-4

beside balmer has already proven he cant play end

by clemsonPANTHERSnascarKBandBK on Aug 30, 2011 2:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Jamal Williams, Pat Williams and Alex Brown would go a long ways toward fixing the Panthers DL problems

DT: Williams, Williams, Fua, McClain, Balmer
DE: Johnson, Hardy, Brown (Alex not Everette), Norwood

This would be solid.

by FF Companion on Aug 30, 2011 4:23 PM EDT reply actions  

That would be solid.

I wonder what is going on with both Williams’s? I wonder if they are injured, or are vastly considered to be ‘washed up.’ I don’t know, it just seems like there would have been some talk about them at some point during the FA period. Can’t say I’ve heard word one.

"I don't know whatchu came to do...but IIIIIIIIIIIIII came to praise his name, yeyuss!!

~Reverend Brown, Coming to America

by ERL on Aug 30, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Could be lots of things I think

Teams could be waiting til right before final cuts to not tip their hand they are interested and drive up the price.
They may be getting calls and either a) don’t want to practice, or b) waiting for a call from a contender.
Teams may not want to give them a contract that is guaranteed for injury at their age.

Who knows? The Panthers should definitely take a shot at getting all three IMO though on one year deals if nothing else. A rotation of that lineup would solve the whole thing.

by FF Companion on Aug 30, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only reason to do this

would be to punish our linebackers. Guys like Beason or Connor will have to take on blocking linemen with far more regularity. Not something that we want. Our OLBs don’t have the pass rush skills for this system either.

by pieterzen on Aug 30, 2011 4:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Try getting 3 healthy LBs before you start trying to use 4...

WOW

There is no 'u' in awesome, but there is a "me". Deal with it...

by NaGaNole on Aug 31, 2011 10:45 AM EDT reply actions  

I presume a capital WOW is more antagonistic? Couldn’t be less…

"I don't know whatchu came to do...but IIIIIIIIIIIIII came to praise his name, yeyuss!!

~Reverend Brown, Coming to America

by ERL on Aug 31, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

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