Which of Their TEs Should the Panthers Retain?
We know something has to give in the Panthers TE depth chart, its just a matter of who. We all know we've signed TE Jeremy Shockey who is assumed to get the starting nod. The only other TE under contract is Gary Barnidge, the previously third TE on the depth chart. Last year's starter Jeff King and back-up Dante Rosario are no longer under contract and are set to be UFA's. Some have suggested that Shockey is no answer at all and the Panthers need to rework the position. So is there an acceptable combination already available. So the question is should the Panthers re-sign either of them?
The better question might be: "Do you see Barnidge as an adequate compliment or back-up to Shockey?" I really want to say yes! and here is why. Of the three previous TE's Barnidge represented to best blend of blocking and pass catching ability. King was a decent blocker but limited in route running. Rosario has tremendously soft hands but could never get on the field except on obvious passing downs. It seems I remember a recent analysis showing Rosario being more effective in the blocking game than assumed but in the end he never became a 3 down TE. Can he handle playing in two TE sets?
We'll look a little further at which TE combo's the new Panthers OC might retain...after the jump...
One of the obvious weaknesses from last year's offense in my opinion was the fact they often telegraphed their plays by the personnel in the game. When Dante Rosario came in the game it was most likely a pass play. In some situations that may not be a big deal but in the this day and age telegraphing even a single play can be damaging to your chances of winning. So if Shockey is the starter who will fill out the depth chart behind him?
Option 1: Shockey - King - Rosario
The most experienced depth chart we could assemble would also be the most expensive. The OC will still need to be sensitive to telegraphing run vs pass be personnel changes. Even if cost is not an obstacle I don't see Chud dumpoing a TE with Barnidge's blend of size, speed and hands. He really could be the future at the position if he can continue to build on what he has shown in prior preseasons.
Probability: 10%
Option 2: Shockey - King - Barnidge
In this option the Panthers decide to keep the capable blocker for 2 TE sets and also retain the younger Barnidge who still represents upside at the position. Given Shockey is only a one to two year solution Barnidge could be retained for a shot at the 2012 job.
Probability: 10%
Option 3: Shockey - Rosario - Barnidge
I see this as the most likely scenario provided Rosie can convince the new staff he can block in 2 TE sets (or Barnidge wins that job). I think if Chud looks at a lot of Rosario's tape he's going to see a quick, athletic TE with wonderful fans. He may find that hard to let go of. I want to give this option a higher probability but because I think Rosie will have a higher market value than King he going to get better offers to leave.
Probability: 20%
Option 4: Shockey - Barnidge - Free Agent
Given both King and Rosario will be looking for more stew the Panthers might let them walk and add a player with more perceived upside than King or Rosario. Besides, I'm hoping they only look at players with the potential to contribute on 3 downs instead of the platoon of specialists employed the past three seasons. Maybe Barnidge will kick ass in the preseason yet again and make this a moot point.
Probability: 60%
I thought of adding a 5th option and that being Shockey and two free agents (or even one and going only with 2 TEs). But given Shockey's injury history I'm not seeing that. That would mean Barnidge gets cut and I'm not seeing that happening, not now or even during preseason cut downs.
I'm not convinced at all the Panthers need to rework the TE position as suggested. I think they have enough upside in Rosario and/or Barnidge to compliment Shockey in the near term to give the Panthers offense production from the position.
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I'd go for option 2 personally, but I agree option 4 is the most likely scenario
Dante Rosario is just too one dimensional to get a spot at TE. I like his pass catching ability, but his blocking is worse than Jeff King’s receiving, which is why I would give him the nod.
Gary Barnidge is the next in the long line of players who didn’t get a shot under Fox. He has far more potential than he was every allowed to show, and I think Chudzinksi will see that too.
Jeff King would be a great one year stop gap, because I don’t think he’ll get many more offers. I would sign him for one year, let the offensive staff truly evaluate Barnidge and if they don’t think he will work then use the 2012 draft to address the position early.
Here's the article that had some revelations on blocking for us
Pass Blocking Efficiency: Tight Ends
Both King and Shockey are in the bottom 15 of the league in PBE, while Rosario is ranked 4th over the past three years. While it doesn’t show his run blocking, my ever-so-biased eye-test detects improvement this year (saw him blow some people up). I think Rosario would complement Shockey better than King, and be the more sensible of the two TE’s retained. If he continues to improve, its far more likely he becomes the #1 guy instead of King in a TE-friendly system.
One problem I see with the comparison:
Why did Rosario never get pressured?
PFF list Rosario as only facing 6 pressures in 130 snaps (4.6%) vs. King who faced 18 pressures in 235 snaps (7.6%).
The answer comes largely inside PFF’s own analysis:
he (Rosario) does benefit from being used in a number of two tight end sets where both men stay in, and as a half back more inclined to pick up a blitzer than an end.
It seems a little unfair to do an apples to apples comparison when by their own admission King was having to deal with a blitzer, whereas in many of Rosario’s blocking scenarios he had the HB to aid him.
I think Rosario is a better H-back than TE.
"I don't know whatchu came to do...but I...I...I...I came to praise his name, yeyuss!!
~Reverend Brown
I agree.
Honestly, the best way I can endorse Rosario is if they want to resign him and use him as that huge receiving threat in the endzone and line him up in the slot. He certainly has the speed and ability for it, but I don’t see him as having the ability to be a three down TE which is why I prefer Barnidge over him
Rosario Is Slow For The Slot
“James”, Rosario is field fast, but still he only ran a 4.76-40, slower than several DE’s.Gary Barnidge actually timed out much faster than Rosario, at a 4.61-40. Rosario had almost 3 times the number of catches last season as Barnidge has had in his whole career, though for a sub 9.0 yard average. With Shockey’s health the Panthers need a proven receiving option as a backup.
by PanthersRoar on Jul 18, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with your assessment of our "need."
But I don’t agree that Rosario is slow for the slot. Its all about positioning. If Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzales can lineup in the slot effectively, so can Rosario.
Aside from that, I think Barnidge IS going to be on the team. It remains to be seen whether or not Rosario will be offered a contract, but I hope he is.
"I don't know whatchu came to do...but I...I...I...I came to praise his name, yeyuss!!
~Reverend Brown
I think you read that incorrectly
But Dante Rosario is more unexpected, though he does benefit from being used in a number of two tight end sets where both men stay in, and as a half back more inclined to pick up a blitzer than an end. It’s still an impressive response to the challenge.
What they seem to be saying is Rosario would line up as the halfback, so he would not face off against defensive ends on passing downs but be used in blitz pick-up. I think the reason the snap count is so low is because Rosario would predominantly be lined up as the recieving TE in 2-TE sets rather than the blitz pickup and release valve.
Fair point
For whatever reason though, less pressures = less chances to screw up.
If he saw 7.6% of pressures it would represent 10 overall, four more than he had… I’d be interested to see where he would rate then
They come to an end point without good transparency into the process so its hard to say. Also, agree on the low count but its pretty low across the board
Hell, they coulda just messed up their english and your initial thought could be right, I don’t know. One thing I’d like to know though is how our TEs will play into this offense. Carolina ran 2-TE sets for a very significant portion of playing time under Fox, but I don’t recall other teams ever doing this nearly as often. I know some teams like the Pats actually bring in another lineman in some multi-WR sets, which I don’t think I’ve ever seen us do. If we predominantly run with one TE I don’t think its going to matter as much as in our previous offense, since a 1-TE set on 1st and 2nd down is going to have more WRs, spreading out the box. On obvious passing downs, Rosario has shown productive in both blocking and catching. 1 TE sets have much more quick options, required due to the softer pocket. This is all just speculation though and depends entirely on how often we run with 2 TEs under Chud.
Thanks for finding the link ppalm
Agree on Rosario if Shockey is the run blocker at TE. Seems he does that pretty well (but obviously not the pass blocking).
I choose option 3
but wouldn’t be in shock they address the TEnd position in th 2012 draft. Since Shockely only signed for 1 year, make or break year for Gary B or he’s gone. Just my thoughts
+1 for option 3
I would like to see Rosario given a chance to be an actual receiving TE. He has the size and mobility that Chud likes in a TE.
On a side note, I was really pulling for us to draft DJ Williams out of Arkansas. I don’t remember who got him, but he was still there in the 5th round, so somebody got some value there. I guess he just doesn’t fit our new TE profile, which is a big, mobile guy.
King is probably a goner. He is going to want too much money, and is not a good enough reciever for this system (he has good hands but zero speed).
"I don't know whatchu came to do...but I...I...I...I came to praise his name, yeyuss!!
~Reverend Brown
I believe the Packers
drafted DJ W, which is good value in the 5th round. I wouldn’t mind drafting Michael Egnew, TE from Missouri.
I think they'll sign King and keep Barnidge
I hope Barnidge gets a chance to show what he can do this year, he never seemed to get much of a chance with Fox, for whatever reason.
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
King has always been decent in the red zone situations, which makes him somewhat valuable. But I think we need to carry 3 TE’s, simply because Shockey’s health will always be a worry. I, personally would like to see us keep Barnidge and get another FA, but keeping King is probably a more cost effective option.
I like Rosario, but he is to one dimensional.
Proud Member of Cat Scratch Reader and coiner of the (minus Bowers) meme
Sounds like a lot of you are down on King
Personally, I think he is the most reliable and consistent TE of the three who played last season. He’s not flashy like Rosario, but if you need a clutch player to catch the ball, King is your man. He’s probably one of the best blockers on the team, and contrary to popular belief, he has great hands. His only problem is he has no speed. If you’re looking for YAC, King is absolutely NOT your man.
There has to be a reason Fox didn’t want to play Barnidge. I know there’s the whole Foxy only likes certain players, but honestly, if he was more talented than King or Rosario, he would have been playing more.
In my opinion, I’d like the Panthers to sign King over Rosario if they’re forced to make a decision. However, what’s keeping the Panthers from going after a serious threat at TE in the FA market?
In situations like this when things are bad, the easy thing to do is fold up the tent, just pack it up and accept it. But winners and people who are successful realize that when things get tough, it’s an opportunity to define yourself. They realize that in this moment, you can do something great. - Jon Beason
by Tarheel Soldier on Jul 18, 2011 3:27 PM EDT reply actions
To your last point...
Hopefully the Shockey signing won’t lull them into a false sense of security as it pertains to the TE position.
"I don't know whatchu came to do...but I...I...I...I came to praise his name, yeyuss!!
~Reverend Brown
He’s not flashy like Rosario, but if you need a clutch player to catch the ball, King is your man.
I dunno man, I remember some extremely clutch catches by Rosario all season last year on third downs. It seemed like he was the only guy Jimmy could get a 1st down with on 3rd and 10.
I remember the season opener in SD in 2008.
The game-winning catch aside, he looked very good all day, and had nearly 100 yards receiving. Since then, all we have seen from him has been untapped potential.
"I don't know whatchu came to do...but I...I...I...I came to praise his name, yeyuss!!
~Reverend Brown
I wonder why he only played well when Smith was out.
I think the coaching staff had a lot to do with holding him back.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Jul 18, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
John Fox
Paraphrasing here:
’We’re only going to risk using the forward pass by throwing it at least 35 yards down the field, ‘cause then if its intercepted its like a punt. And sometimes a punt isn’t a bad play.’
"I don't know whatchu came to do...but I...I...I...I came to praise his name, yeyuss!!
~Reverend Brown
Re-sign Rosario, & Keep Barnidge
It’s a tough call, and I hope the roster is expanded to 56 players, and the game day roster to 48 or 49, as has been rumored.
I feel the Panthers must re-sign Rosario, because he’s a proven pass catcher (around 32 catches in 2010, and has had 0 catches in 2 of his 3 seasons. That leaves the Panthers without a good blocking TE on short yardage downs. but they can sign a great blocking UDFA TE to replace King a half the price. Then take those 4 or 5 (another UDFA signing)TE’s to camp, add see how things shake out.
UDFA TE Andre Smith (6-4, 270, 4.80-40) of Virginia Tech was rated as high as the 8th best TE before the draft, blocks like an extra OT, and would be a perfect replacement for Jeff King. They could also sign Weslye Saunders (6-5, 270, 4.96-40 while still injured), and put him on the PUP list until almost midseason.
I know there are people here who would welcome a Saunders signing.
"I don't know whatchu came to do...but I...I...I...I came to praise his name, yeyuss!!
~Reverend Brown
And who would they be? ;-)
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
Some might call them 'cocks
"I don't know whatchu came to do...but I...I...I...I came to praise his name, yeyuss!!
~Reverend Brown
...so if you're a cock then its you.
"I don't know whatchu came to do...but I...I...I...I came to praise his name, yeyuss!!
~Reverend Brown
I have been known to be a dick head…does that count?
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
Close enough in my book.
(No, I don’t have a book about cocks and dicks, gulp…)
"I don't know whatchu came to do...but I...I...I...I came to praise his name, yeyuss!!
~Reverend Brown
So you do not have the book "Life and Times of The New York Yankees?"
I am a proud supporter of troll hunting---- me.
When I see or hear sports segments dedicated to fantasy sports I want drive a nail in my ear because it is less painful. --also me.
lol
No. Still looking to add that one to the library.
"I don't know whatchu came to do...but I...I...I...I came to praise his name, yeyuss!!
~Reverend Brown
If you hurry and purchase it now it comes with a free syringe to help you “recover from injuries” just like the Yankees did from 1998-2003.
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
Roger Clemens insists that you are “mis-remembering.”
"I don't know whatchu came to do...but I...I...I...I came to praise his name, yeyuss!!
~Reverend Brown
Oh yeah…that’s right. I did misremember.
It was 1996-2001.
My bad, Roger.
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
What a douche.
So I guess in this day and age if you yell that you’re innocent loud enough you’ll convince the average juror.
"I don't know whatchu came to do...but I...I...I...I came to praise his name, yeyuss!!
~Reverend Brown
Apparently so...
See Anthony, Casey; and Simpson, OJ.
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
Agreed on Shockey and Rosario. Barnidge better make hay this year, because it's his
contract year. I’ve always liked Rosario’s versatility, and as James noted, he’s an under-rated blocker. Plus, he won’t cost a lot to keep, IMO.
So much to be done, and so few people willing to do it for me.
around 32 catches in 2010, and has had 0 catches in 2 of his 3 seasons
Do you man had 30 catches in 2 of his 3 seasons? I know he didn’t have 0.
I Left Out Barnide Name "pplm" Thnks
It’ Barnidge wo has 0 catches in 2 of his 3 seasons.
by PanthersRoar on Jul 18, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Jeff King flat out sucks
"My everything, or nothing. My everything, or nothing. WE gonna fight, til we can't fight no more. We gonna lie down, and bleed a while. Gonna get up, and fight again." -Tashard Choice
by SouthernPanther on Jul 18, 2011 4:08 PM EDT reply actions
But...but
He’s does an awesome TD dance?
/sarcasm
"I don't know whatchu came to do...but I...I...I...I came to praise his name, yeyuss!!
~Reverend Brown
Everytime he does that spike...
I’m afraid it’s going to bounce straight up into his crotch.
"One play can win a game, but one play cannot lose a game." - Coach Peterson, Boise St.
"When you get into coaching, you strive to be a Super Bowl-winning head coach. That’s what my goal is, to come here and become a Super Bowl-winning head coach and to sustain an atmosphere of winning." - Ron Rivera
LOL
Glad I’m not the only one who fears that for him.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Jul 18, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Give me option 4, please.
Rosario and King need to go right along with the old system. Single dimension TE’s out, multi-dimension TE’s in. If you can’t catch and block, goodbye.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000301308419 - The idiot behind the post.
Wouldn't be in shock if John F signs
one of them as stop gap until their 2 late rounds TEnds develop properly with Denver.
I really think we should keep Rosario.
He’s shown the most upside receiving out of all of our TE’s, and he’s a decent enough blocker. Shockey will be fine for one season, and I suspect we’ll sign an UDFA. So that would leave us with Shockey-Rosario-Barnidge-TE to be named.
Yes I'm a dude.
I see option 3 as a good, but agree that 4 most likey.
Despite all the liabities that Resario Dawson has in the run game, a pass catching TE his and this new system is the only system he really can succeed in. I think one way or another we will get a recieving TE.
I am a proud supporter of troll hunting---- me.
When I see or hear sports segments dedicated to fantasy sports I want drive a nail in my ear because it is less painful. --also me.

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