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2010 Carolina Panthers Position Review: Defensive End

Just twelve short months ago you would be hard pressed to find a position that was going through more turmoil than defensive end. The absence of Julius Peppers alone created a vacuum in which the organization were relying on the mostly untested Charles Johnson, veteran Tyler Brayton with Everette Brown and Greg Hardy hoping to add something to the Panthers' pass rush. It required a major leap of faith on the part of fans, and in the end the result was very optimistic.



Charles Johnson

2010 Statistics (16 game starter): 62 tackles, 11.5 sacks, 1 FF

Julius who? If there is one player that will help fans forget #90 it's Charles Johnson. The 4th year DE was a man on a mission in 2010 wrecking opposing offensive lines and becoming one of the few bright spots in a dour season. At 6'2", 275lbs he's the ideal size you want at the position and was severely overlooked in Pro Bowl voting.

Letter Grade: A+

More after the jump....

Star-divide

Tyler Brayton

2010 Statistics (14 game starter): 22 tackles

If there's one player the Panthers really needed to step up and help it was Tyler Brayton, and he couldn't do it. He failed to get a single sack in 2010, and while he supported Charles Johnson, surely helping attribute to his great season there's no doubt he was just terrible in 2010.

Letter Grade: F

 

Everette Brown

2010 Statistics (2 game starter): 25 tackles, 3.5 sacks, 1 FF, 1 INT

Definitely a player whose taken his lumps from fans over the last two years, we are fast approaching the 'put up or shut up' time for Everette Brown. At times I definitely agree with the masses that he has been underwhelming, but the fact is that on a per-snap basis he's trending a lot like Charles Johnson did before he broke out in 2010. Are you ready to be surprised? I was:

According to Football Outsiders' advanced tracking

- Brown was 15th in the NFL among DEs in overall stop rate (84%)

- Brown was 25th in the NFL among DEs in run stop rate (79%)

So, while he didn't spend a lot of time on the field in 2010, Everette Brown really used his time effectively.

Letter Grade: B

 

Greg Hardy

2010 Statistics (No games started): 30 tackles, 3 sacks, 2 FF

One curiosity to me has been the fanbase's effusive praise of Greg Hardy this offseason, yet a large amount of condemnation for Everette Brown. Fact is, they were almost identical players in 2010. Hardy played 26 snaps to Brown's 25 and their numbers are very comparable, however, Brown had a better stop rate (84% vs. 73%). 

Hardy's future is very bright as he proved he can be a difference maker in just his first season. His 65% stop rate against the run (66th at his position) is definitely an area to improve on. He will need to tighten up his run stopping if he hopes to be a true three-down DE and not just a 3rd down pass rusher.

Letter Grade: B

 

Overall Assessment

The future is extremely bright for the Carolina Panthers at the DE position. Provided Charles Johnson can be resigned while Brown and Hardy keep making strides we should be poised for long term success at DE. When this is coupled with some much needed defensive creativity from Ron Rivera and co. we will have a dominant rush sooner, rather than later.

Letter Grade: B

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I think Greg Hardy gets more love than EB because

he was a rookie and 6th round pick and really looks like he will be Peppers like when he learns defense and is able to play faster . I hope EB is due for a breakout like Charles Johnson.

by jwalkingincarolina on Jun 7, 2011 11:40 AM EDT reply actions  

Seems to me Hardy has physical skills that EB doesn’t possess. Doesn’t mean EB can’t become a high-caliber guy, though.

"You know you're in Charlotte when every day while you're having lunch in the city you hear ... "GOD Scott Fowler is a retard!"

by The Kackalack Kid on Jun 7, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good summary

Better rookie season, bigger size, better value in draft currency, and more upside.

by bigdavis on Jun 7, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

E. Brown is still in my book a bust, until he can prove to me that he can make impact plays, stay on the field for a whole season healthy and stay on the field more then just third down plays. I feel R. Meeks wanted E. Brown along with the front office b.c. they thought they were getting a R. Mathis or D. Freeney clone but sadly E. Brown is not. E.Brown I fear is going to be forgotten about in a few years as a guy that had the tools but was still to undersized and just lacked the “IT” factor that most NFL players need to be a success. E. Brown it is time to put up or shut up in 2011 my friend your time and contract (2 years left I believe) are coming to a close. Boom or Bust , huge bust in my book to this point on E. Brown and I said it from day one he is simply to small to play DE in a 4-3 in the NFL.

G. Hardy is better then E. Brown today, stats are not everything especially when comparing E. Brown and G. Hardy, plus their is a reason that his teammates call him Mini-Pep in practice.

Laslty T. Brayton is going to be cut I fear b.c. of his down season and the fact that he is due a bigger higher payroll firgure then 2010 when he failed to register a sack, hey Tyler their is always the Broncos, lol and take H. Taylor with ya why we still have him I have zero idea.

Lastly and most importantly we need to lockup C. Johnson asap b.c. he is a true beast and had more sacks then good old #90 for the Bears a season ago. C. Johson is a great DE in the NFL and is going to command a decent to slightly above average payday but the Panthers will lock him up quickly b.c. good DE in their prime are hard to come by anymore. Plus we don’t want to go back to the E. Swann, J. Peters, C. Smith years ever again.

Still Go Panthers. Please no lock out or 8 game season what a crazy thing to talk about.

by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Jun 7, 2011 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

The problem I and many others have with EB is his contribution is "boom or bust"

When he misses, he misses entirely. His percentages may be high, but the misses have contained huge chunks of ground yardage or getting blocked for 6 seconds by one guy on a pass rush. Hardy was frequently doubled when on the right side of the line, where I did not see that with EB on the left. Brown having little to no impact on third-and-long was a very large reason we got burned on those plays last season. His size limits his available techniques, and he hasn’t shown a propensity to improve on those few available techniques other than his laughable spin move.

I think he will prove to be a good lineman under McDermott’s blitz plays, but when sending 4, he is not the DE you are looking for.

by ppalm on Jun 7, 2011 11:55 AM EDT reply actions  

Like I've been saying

Brown looks good. STFU about him. This fickle bs is old. Who cares where he was picked, or what we gave up to get him. The kid is doing well with his opportunities.

Hardy looks good. For most though, he’s the new toy. Everyone loves jumpin on the new guys ship for some reason. Fickle. And I see the point about we got him in the 6th. I get that, and that tha means something to many. Don’t forget that he was projected by S.I. to go #1 overall at on point. He fell due to injuries. He has prototypical size, is an athletic freak, and played againts good competition in the SEC. The only thing that should hold him back is

http://twitter.com/#!/TheeSteveJohns
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by Thee Steve Johnson on Jun 7, 2011 1:47 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I posted this comment early.

Asked for it to be deleted and someone deleted the wrong one…

The only thing that should have held him back was injuries. That wasn’t an issue (that we know of) and he played well.

http://twitter.com/#!/TheeSteveJohns
https://www.facebook.com/TheeSteveJohnson

by Thee Steve Johnson on Jun 7, 2011 2:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I was just messing around

I think as long as he stays healthy and keeps his head on straight he has a bright future ahead.

by BusyBeingAwesome on Jun 7, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Definitely

We have a great group of young DE’s. The sky is the limit with them. I want to see Norwood make an impact this year. I was seeing him around the QB a god bit at the end of the year last year. That kid just knows how to get it done. He will be good.

We REALLY need to keep CJ. DE could be a strength on this team by the end of the year. And for many years. The oldest of the 4 is 25 right (can’t remember)? This is a great situation to be in.

http://twitter.com/#!/TheeSteveJohns
https://www.facebook.com/TheeSteveJohnson

by Thee Steve Johnson on Jun 7, 2011 3:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think youre right about their age.

We are in a great spot as long as CJ comes back.

by BusyBeingAwesome on Jun 7, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

uhh not to say Brown is going to bust or not

but where he’s drafted and what we gave up is crucial in post-analysis… If we had taken Brown #1 overall and he had produced like that, you’d be very upset yourself. If we took him as the last man in the draft, we would all be very excited. So his drafting as a first round DE means that we must have higher expectations.

by vitzeng on Jun 7, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

What does it really matter?

If you are talking a top 5 pick – you have high expectations. It’s not like the kid is Hilee Taylor. He is progressing. He is giving some production. This year is big for him. Let’s say he keeps up the production from last year. At that pace, with 16 STARTS, we have a player.

We need to get Brayton out of his way though. I’m done with him. I will feel just fine with CJ, Brown, Hardy, Norwood (I wouldn’t mind Taylor still being here either).

http://twitter.com/#!/TheeSteveJohns
https://www.facebook.com/TheeSteveJohnson

by Thee Steve Johnson on Jun 7, 2011 7:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

If you compare Manning to Brady, does where they were drafted hold weight in your mind as who is better? I don’t. I just see two great players. Draft day is draft day. Where players are taken is where they are taken. All that shit is out the window the very next day. They are all just rookies. Same with UDFA’s.

We have expectations, because of where players are drafted. But what matters is the player progressing, and getting some production. This should be the year that Brown starts. If he is still a situational player, but produces, then fine. Doesn’t mean we should cut him or anything…

http://twitter.com/#!/TheeSteveJohns
https://www.facebook.com/TheeSteveJohnson

by Thee Steve Johnson on Jun 7, 2011 7:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

you are considering their skills as if you were a coach

deciding who to play each snap and you’re right, it doesn’t matter where the player is drafted, you put the best on the field

but we are fans and as fans we get to judge based off of expectations so being a little disappointed in Brown’s progress is completely reasonable based on his draft position (and the fact that he was not severley over/underdrafted – this exception necessary due to Al Davis drafted players)

by vitzeng on Jun 7, 2011 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

That is how I look at pretty much every player. #1 picks though… if it was PP7, I would have 0 patience. A WR I will have some patience. A DT,0. DE, 0. LB, 0. OT, 0. RB, 0. QB, some. All that completely changes outside the top 5. Changes even more outside the top 10. And then it’s all the same.

Maybe I need to think of the way “fans” think of things more. I think about football differently than 90% of U.S.A.

http://twitter.com/#!/TheeSteveJohns
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by Thee Steve Johnson on Jun 7, 2011 11:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

What I really want to see...

Is for Brown to bring his preseason form to the actual season. The guy is all over it in the preseason. I went to the game against the Titans last season, and it seemed like Brown’s name was called out on at least every other snap. Then he seemed to disappear.

Like others have said, Hardy has gotten more adoration than Brown because of being a rookie at a good value pick. Looking at stats on paper, their production looks relatively similar.

But, by my ever-so-scientific eyeball test, Hardy seems more physically dominating , and I think he has more big-play ability in him. He seems more opportunistic – such as the blocked punt for a safety (granted, that was a special teams contribution versus a straight-up defense contribution), and stripping the football from Big Ben in the Steelers game. When he adds more of a mental component to his game on top of that physicality, he’ll be awesome. I’m not saying Hardy’s stupid and doesn’t understand defenses – far from it. I’m just saying that as he gets more experience and study under his belt, he’ll be formidable.

As to CJ, there’s no doubt that he earned that A+ grade. Unfortunately, the Pro Bowl is frequently a name recognition deal. For example, Gross did not put forth a Pro Bowl-worthy season, but there he was. He started getting back to form near the end of the season, but looking solely at 2010, I really don’t think Gross earned that spot. Another example: Peppers – name recognition. Peppers is still very talented, but I’m not sure that he was that much better than some other DEs. Maybe it’s homerism on my part, but I think CJ was quite possibly the best overall DE – or at least one of the top 3 – last year. He wasn’t top in sacks, but he was darn close when you only look at the regular season stats of the DEs and don’t take playoff stats into account. However, CJ was the top DE in several other categories (defensive stops was one, I believe). He absolutely deserved a Pro Bowl appearance, but as far as many were concerned, he was “just the guy who replaced Julius Peppers.” Look at CJ’s stats, look at the tale of the tape, and he was incredible.

And who is Tyler Brayton? Oh…was he that guy that played place-holder for Hardy?

"One play can win a game, but one play cannot lose a game." - Coach Peterson, Boise St.

"When you get into coaching, you strive to be a Super Bowl-winning head coach. That’s what my goal is, to come here and become a Super Bowl-winning head coach and to sustain an atmosphere of winning." - Ron Rivera

by jamiedk on Jun 7, 2011 4:11 PM EDT reply actions  

He wasn’t top in sacks, but he was darn close when you only look at the regular season stats of the DEs and don’t take playoff stats into account. However, CJ was the top DE in several other categories (defensive stops was one, I believe).

Not to mention how long he was on the field during some games this past season. The game really took its toll on the D this past season…CJ really laid it all out there.

Proud Member of Cat Scratch Reader and coiner of the (minus Bowers) meme

by Ivan459 on Jun 7, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great run stop percentage stats Dator (many thanks), but the QBI stats (sacks + QB hits + QB preasures) from Pro Football Focus for Brown are the reverse of Hardy’s. They list Brown’s QBI’s as 22, a percentage (QBI’s of plays) of 7.6%, and a sack percentage of his QBI’s of 18.2%, while Hardy’s QBI’s are 25, a percentage of 11.5%, but a sack percentage of his QBI’s of 8.0%. To better judge these numbers, the average QBI percentage for DE’s was 15.9%, and the top percentage of sacks per QBI’s was 42%. The numbers for Charles Johnson were 81 QBI’s, 16.8% of plays, and 14.8% sacks of QBI’s. However, I do question their stats, because their numbers are not the same as Dator’s, they are off just a little. They list Johnson with 12 sacks (1/2 sack more), Brown with 4 sacks (1/2 sacks more), and Hardy with only 2 sacks (1 sack less).

Evan Silva predicts that it will cost the Panthers $45 million to re-sign DE Charles Johnson for 4 years. I wouldn’t be shocked if the number were to edge even higher, because he’s by far the best free agent pass rusher available,, at a very young age for a free agent, and every team wants to improve their pass rush. I expect the Falcons to make a major run at Johnson, because they see the need for a 2nd pass rusher to go with the aging John Abraham as their only weak spot left which could prevent their Super Bowl run. I think the Falcons will squeeze every penny out of their salary cap that they can to sign Johnson. Keeping Johnson will eat up a lot of the Panthers cap room, limiting them from signing more than 1 DT, 1 WR, and re-signing OLB James Anderson, maybe even 1 or 2 less.

By not drafting a DE or a DT/DE this year the Panthers may have backed themselves into a cornner, that could leave them with only 2 good options at DE (Brown and Hardy) this season, if Johnson leaves. DE Tyler Brayton is due around $3.5 million this year I believe, and Panthers were/are thinking of releasing him in a cost cutting move. Hate me if you like, and I may be wrong, but DE Eric Norwood (6-0 7/8, 241, 4.71-40) is a wasted draft pick. He’s a tweener, a smaller, slower version of Hilee Taylor (6-2, 250, 4.64-40), who only played 10 downs last season. To be effective in any way at DE, Norwood will have to set up wide enough (like the Titans) to get around the OT almost untouched, and having to be picked up by the RB when pass rushing, but this opens up a gap between the DE and DT for rushers.

How can the Panthers cope if they lose Charles Johnson?

The Panthers could have, and should have drafted a combo DT/DE this year, either Allen Bailey (6-3, 285, 4.77-40, 1.67-10) of Miami at #65 (#86 to the Chiefs), or the surprisingly falling (after a failed drug test for pot at the Combine, a late 1st or 2nd round prospect before) Christian Ballard (6-3 3/4, 283, was listed at 298, 4.70-40, 1.65-10) of Nebraska (#106 pick of the Vikings), with 1 of their 3rd round picks. That’s all water under the bridge now, leaving only a rookie free agent signing, a veteran free agent signing, or signing a veteran who gets cut, though no one knows who that might be. Johnson is the best veteran free agent by far, and you can’t judge the market until a new CBA sets the number of years required to become an unrestricted free agent.

Of the undrafted rookie free agent DE’s, though little help can be expected of them in 2011, the best 4 available are:

Pierre Allen (6-3 7/8, 273, 4.78-40) of Nebraska, he’s not a pass rusher (only 3 sacks in 2010).

Ugo Chinasa (6-4 7/8, 264, 4.65-40, 1.65-10) of Oklahoma St., his production wasn’t as good ar his numbers might make you think, and he might be a good fit as a 3-4 OLB.

Marc Schiechl ( 6-2 1/2, 251, 4.65, 1.66-10, 38 ench reps) of the Colorado School of Mines, he had 46 career college sacks, may best fit as a 3-4 OLB, and because of his small college background will take a while to develop.

Justin Rindt (6-3 1/4, 267, 4.72-40, 1.67-10) of Wisconsin.

by PanthersRoar on Jun 7, 2011 6:39 PM EDT reply actions  

To clarify, the stats in my article aren't my own... the're courtesy of Football Outsiders

I used to rely on PFF, but when they went to their pay system I couldn’t use their numbers anymore.

The problem with advanced charting is that there’s no golden rule- it’s all subjective. What one person sees as a potential play, someone else doesn’t. It doesn’t invalidate their stats, just shows a variance. It’s good to discuss all those variances.

The stop rate numbers measure one thing: When a player is in position to make a stop, do they do it? Football outsiders dont look at QBI numbers

by James Dator on Jun 7, 2011 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you know anything about Norwood?

Or do you just know him on paper?

http://twitter.com/#!/TheeSteveJohns
https://www.facebook.com/TheeSteveJohnson

by Thee Steve Johnson on Jun 7, 2011 7:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

The Falcons kinda like their DE’s BTW… not to say that they won’t make a run at CJ, but they aren’t going to break the bank to get him. I would think that we would push harder than the Falcons.

http://twitter.com/#!/TheeSteveJohns
https://www.facebook.com/TheeSteveJohnson

by Thee Steve Johnson on Jun 7, 2011 7:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

PR...

If I’m reading your stats correctly, I think it states that Brown got pressure far less often than Hardy, but when he got pressure, he got sacks more often? I’d say that passes the eye test with flying colors.

by ppalm on Jun 7, 2011 6:45 PM EDT reply actions  

This time last year I engaged in a excercise

I look Charles Johnson’s 2009 snaps, extrapolated them into Julius Peppers snap count to give an indication of effectiveness. At the time I was called all variety of things because ultimately it found Johnson to be a 12 sack DE. I feel vinicated slightly given he had an 11.5 sack season.

So, I’ll play the same game with Brown and Hardy. Charles Johnson had 11.5 sacks in 62 potential opportunities (again from Football Outsider). If Brown and Hardy had 62 opportunities…
- Brown: 8.5 sacks
- Hardy: 7 sacks

by James Dator on Jun 7, 2011 6:46 PM EDT reply actions  

none of those numbers really suck.

I’d take a front three with 27 sacks between them.

by Floods on Jun 7, 2011 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Special teams

Plays made on kickoff and punt returns don’t count towards positional snap totals, but allow players to amass tackles.

by James Dator on Jun 8, 2011 7:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

He's just that good.

One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.

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by BW Smith on Jun 8, 2011 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Actually I thought it was because he was related to Chuck Norris

I kinda like power running football though. It’s iike a bloody violent ballet…
When it was working it was a thing of beauty to me. - Vagus

(Please note that from now on I shall only refer to Cam as "The Newt" and Rivera as "BAMF")

by The Duke Dude on Jun 8, 2011 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

That is an acceptable theory.

One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.

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by BW Smith on Jun 8, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

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