Would You Trade Smitty for This Guy?
by Rick Bates on Jun 5, 2011 8:44 PM EDT
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Pro Football Focus ran this article about a little known Nose Tackle in San Diego. His name: Antonio Garay.
Per PFF, the potential is off the charts for this 31-year old Tackle, but he played the last 2 years behind Ogemdi Nwagbuo, Jacques Cesaire and Luis Castillo. The Chargers also have Cam Thomas projected to start at NT, and just drafted Corey Luiget. And while they could lose Cesaire via free agency (another potential Panther?), Cesaire has said he'd be willing to take a pay cut to stay.
At 6'4", 320 lbs, Garay's a run-stopper and pass rusher from the nose. But in his 6 years prior to last year, he barely saw the field with Cleveland, Chicago, and finally San Diego.
He attended Rahway High School in Rahway, New Jersey, and was a standout offensive and defensive lineman. He was also the NJSIAA 275 lb (125 kg). state and national wrestling champion in 1998. That's National Champ in 1998 -- I like wrestlers on the front lines.
Exerpts from the PFF article can be found following the jump:
It was one of the things that astounded me as the season went on. I watched his performance and wasn’t just impressed, but amazed. Not just because of how well he played, but because of how little of the field he continued to see.
In his 2nd year with Rivera's SD defense, Garay did start to get some snaps, and he made the most of them:
You would think San Diego would therefore have looked at Garay’s impact and found more ways to get use out of him. He wasn’t just getting the job done in the run game, he was taking what opportunities he had in passing situations as well. So much so that when we released our yearly Pass Rushing Productivity rankings, guess who got the most pressure on a per play basis of all defensive tackles playing at least 250 snaps? Well you don’t need to guess, you can just look below:
Top Defensive Tackles, Pressure Per Snap, 2010
Rank Player Team Pass Rush Pressure Percentage 1 Antonio Garay SD 250 11.60% 2 Shaun Rogers CLV 272 11.03% 3 Geno Atkins CIN 290 10.69% 4 Richard Seymour OAK 356 10.39% 5 Kyle Williams BUF 440 9.77%
I like the idea of a versatile NT in our improving rotation.
Quite remarkable. And what made it all the more impressive is that he was largely doing it from a base defense position, with the Chargers opting to use both Jacques Cesaire and Luis Castillo inside in their sub package D. How did those two men fair? On over 100 more snaps rushing the passer, they managed 10 fewer quarterback disruptions, for a pressure per pass rush percentage of 5.4% (Cesaire) and 5.34% (Castillo).
I have to think that Garay's somewhat unexpected production drew the attention of then DC Rivera. Could it be there are issues that never surfaced, or could it be a case similar to Connor behind Beason? Or maybe big Ron just doesn't like the hair color thing.
(Limited snaps) was a theme that developed throughout the year. He’d play the majority of his snaps in base packages, rarely getting a whiff of a sub package defense that was generating next to nothing up the middle. But he got on with things, and exceeded what most expected of him. By season’s end, only five defensive tackles had more defensive stops than him, all of whom had played at least 100 more snaps, and some of whom had twice as many snaps as the 465 he managed.
The big man from Boston College was making plays.
Garay is no spring chicken at 31, but with so few snaps in his first five years, you have to think there's still several years of tread left on the tires.
So, as I get off my soap box, I’ll stop bemoaning what we didn’t get to see, and remind you of what we did. A guy who was disruptive in every phase, and whose hair added a bit of color to even the dullest of games. He may not have the reputation quite yet, but in 2010 there wasn’t a more destructive nose tackle than Antonio Garay.
The big man from Boston College was making plays
The Chargers recently re-signed Garay to a 2-year deal. Smitty has 2 years remaining on his contract. Both are over 30; Smitty's a proven star, Garay's an emerging one.
What say you, CSR? Let's Make a Deal, or not?
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Sad to say but I think it could work out great for both sides
I want smitty to stay but the more i think about it and the more it comes out
I don’t think smitty wants to stay in carolina.
And we need some DT’s even if he is a little old, as mentioned above he has alot of tread on the tires (hopefully) and i think he could be the veteran DT we bring in.
I think it would work out.
and i am prepared to get all the hate replys to this
That's My Two Cents.....Both Heads Up
I hate you.
Kidding, but not so sure about trading the guy that has been one of the best receivers in the NFL and the guy that made X clown mean something to all of us for a guy that has not been able to crack the starting line up on several teams. Wouldn’t mind having him but trading Smitty for him seems wacked.
I like collard greens.
+10000 houghman
I am backing your play houghman, no-hater-ad here. Seriously if you think about this Garay would come in a start righ away and he looks like a B. Buckner clone. A Run-stuffing DT that has played and thrived in R. Rivera defense and knows the in’s and out’s of the playbook already. With so many chargers players wanting to return to the Cali area such as the above not named Garay and with their current draft picks I believe Garay is someone they would be willing to move. R. Rivera has already stated that he wanted to add a veteran quarterback, defensive lineman vet, secondary vet, and veteran LB help as well.
Honestly though I agree with most fans I would want second round pick included in the deal from the Chargers. A second round and Garay for an aging worn out Smitty, HELL YEAH I MAKE THAT TRADE TODAY.
We had ten great seasons with Smitty but he has clearly lost a step and only has two – three years tops left in the tank and he knows it. Smitty is no longer the player he once was which is a shame. Advice for Panther nation is to welcome in this new regime and let Smitty go elsewhere an playout the rest of his career. Plus with Smitty contract off the payroll that allows us even more money to sign URFA, lock up home grown expensive talent such J. Beason, D. Williams, C. Johnson, R. Kalil, T .Davis, J. Anderson,etc…. Panthers will be in year two of a three year rebuilding process in 2011 so be excited b.c. a new regime is in town full of new ideas and a new attitude.Smitty is leaving time to warmup to the idea panther nation, not attending the player organized team workouts a week or so ago should be a pretty good indication that he has no interest in returning plus he clean out his suite at the Stadium, and lastly is still trying to or has sold his home in the Charlotte, NC area. I mean how many more signs do some people need that he wants to leave and finish out his career elsewhere, LOL.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Jun 5, 2011 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Points About This Trade Idea
Here are some points for and against this trade idea:
1. The Panthers greatest need is still at DT. They drafted DT Sione Fua (6-1 1/8, 308) at #97 to play NT, it worked in college, but he’s probably lacks the bulk to hold his ground against NFL O-Linemen, needing around 10 more pounds. Fua had the fewest tackles in 2010 of any DT drafted this year, with only 23 tackles. Fua’s best production came in 2009, with only 24 tackles, and his college career total was only 64 tackles. As a comparison, DT Jurrell Casey of USC (also in the PAC-10), the #77 pick of the Titans this year, had 67 tackles in the 2010 season alone, and 138 in his career. The leader among the DT’s in 2010 tackles drafted this year was NT Kenrick Ellis (the #94 pick of the Jets), with 94 tackles. He also has below average movement skills, scoring low in all his Combine workouts, except for the bench press. He’s also basically a undersized (for the NFL) stationary road block against the run, with little lateral movement.
2. Len Pasquarelli, at nfldraftscout.con, had a great article around a week ago, which listed the 2010 production of the 2010 draft’s DT who were selected in the draft’s first 3 rounds. Here are their numbers"
- - 68 tackles – 10 sacks – Ndamukong Suh
- - 22 tackles – 3 sacks – Gerald Mccoy
- - 5 tackles (only played 5 games, on IR) – Brian Price
- - 23 tackles – 2 sacks – Torrell Troup
- - 39 tackles – 5 sacks – Lamarr Houston (played DE all season)
- - 8 tackles – Linval Joseph
- - 3 tackles (on IR after 2 games) – Mike Neal
- - 13 tackles – 1 sack – Terrence Cody
- - (on IR all season) – D’Anthony Smith
- - 28 tackles – Earl Mitchell
- - 31 tackles – 1 sack – Corey Peters
That’s only a 15 tackle average for last seasons 2nd and 3rd round DT picks (not counting Houston because he played DE), and a 38% injury rate for players going on IR. So for the Panthers 2 3rd round DT picks, it’s likely that 1 might lose the season to injury, and the other only produce around 15 tackles. With next to nothing returning at DT this season they should get playing time, which may off set the higher quality of the 2010 draft.
3. I love the pressure per snap percentage of NT Antonio Garay, but his age, and only 1 year of production scares me off. First you have to hope that his 2010 production can be repeated, then that he has more than 1 or 2 years left. While the Panthers need some veteran leadership, those players need more than 1 solid season of experience to be the leaders. Older players who won’t be around for more than a couple of years only eat up snaps that would better used developing younger talent, rather than slowing their development. Additionally, trying to rush a teams development may add a few wins, it also means they won’t be drafting as high, prolonging their return to quality. All that said, Garay may be the best they can do at NT.
4. The chance of drafting a good NT in 2012 is almost zero. Walterfootball.com only list 4 NT’s worth drafting in 2012, at the present time, and Nick Saban say one of them (Junior, Kerry Murphy) may have a long term knee injury. Of the other 3 NT’s, only 2 weigh over 310 pounds.
5. Free Agency offers no NT help, other than DT’s Barry Cofield (Giants, 6-4, 306) or Brandon Brandon Mebane.(Seahawks, 6-1, 311), if the Panthers can afford 1 of them? 2 Undrafted Rookie Free Agent options exist, Southern Mississippi’s Anthony Gray (5-11 3/4, 330, 5.17-40, 39 bench reps), and Notre Dame’s Ian Williams (6-1 1/4, 319, 5.14-40 Pro Day, and 31 bench reps).
6. Steve Smith is no longer the player he once was. Maybe it’s Smiths fault, or maybe it’s the QB’s the last few years. Steve Smith had the 2nd highest percentage of dropped passes in the NFL last season, 17.86% (10 drops, and 46 catches).
7. A story out of San Diego last week was that the Chargers are thinking of swapping free agent WR Malcom Floyd (tendered for a 1st and a 3rd round pick) for Smith. Floyd (6-5, 225) has only had more than 26 catches in 2 of his 7 NFL seasons, 37 in 2010, and 45 in 2009, 144 catches total in 7 years. To me, Floyd is Mr. Overrated, and I hate this trade idea.
8. If anyone offers a late 2nd round pick for Steve Smith, the Panthers should grab it in a flash. I would be happy if the panthers could get a 3rd round pick for Smith.
He could be a diamond in the rough type of guy like CJ, plays very well when given the chance to do so. However, I do not see this as being a good trade at all. If we are to trade Smitty for this guy, SD better damn well sweeten that deal. In fact, if we trade for him at all, Garay better not be the main part of the trade on SD’s side.
The principal part of their deal should be a 2nd round pick. We are trading a bona-fide #1 WR for a depth DT… yeah, that doesn’t sound good to me either. He would have to be a part of a bigger package from the SD side.
Proud Member of Cat Scratch Reader and coiner of the (minus Bowers) meme
Garay is beast
He is a starter if you read the article you would know that. The Chargers wouldnt even trade him straight up for Steve Smith. Steve Smith is a beast WR yes, but his is contract isnt great. Two years 14.5 million. Garay is on a one year pretty much vet minimum deal. It makes zero cents for the Chargers to trade their best DL signed cheaply for a WR to pay 14 mil over 2 years. The team would be better off just signing Vincent Jackson and keeping Garay.
Winning
That’s my thing. I would not trade a viable starting #1 WR straight up for a guy who is basically a depth player. That is crazy.
Proud Member of Cat Scratch Reader and coiner of the (minus Bowers) meme
Garay IS the starter
He was the starter at NT all year last year for the bolts. I dont get why you guys think he is just a rotation player.
I love Steve Smith but as a Charger fan I wouldnt trade Steve Smith straight up for Garay. I think Garay might be the most underrated player in the league. He is really that good.
That may be the case, but the fact still is in this particular scenario, we would be trading our #1 WR (a very good one at that) for a guy who may very well be good, but is although just a depth guy at the moment.
I don’t see that as a particularly good deal for Carolina. Like I said, if this deal were to ever happen, I’d like to see a draft pick come along with the trade for us.
Proud Member of Cat Scratch Reader and coiner of the (minus Bowers) meme
Garay is not depth
He is a starter, and he is one of the top DTs in the league. Read the Pro Football Focus article he graded out at an insane percentage.
Winning
I used to coach Cam Thomas.
He’s going to be a good NFL player. I’m now coaching his little brother. He is not.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
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Not happen..
This trade will never happen unless the Chargers add something else as in pick or another player. If i where Marty Hurnry i would be trying a Smitty for VJax trade somehow.
Coach Rivera, may we please have one of these FA Nnamdi Asomugha or Jonathan Joseph
I think this trade won't get done.
Smitty is for all intents and purposes a #2 receiver. He may have another year of #1 production in the right scheme with the right QB, but he’s not the same guy he was in 05 or even 08. His skillset would be maximized out of the slot. And the Chargers won’t trade that valuable of a defensive piece for a slot receiver, especially given several of their young guys have had success. Plus, while I think Garay makes us better and I’d love to have him, I hesitate to trade someone like Smith for him. He’s done too much for this franchise.
Yes I'm a dude.
The Chargers spread the ball around too much, too.
Their WR with the most catches last season was Malcolm Floyd, with only 37 receptions. Some of this could be attributed to not having a pro-bowl caliber WR in the lineup for much of the season (as Jackson was holding out), but mostly the reason for putrid numbers from the WRs is b/c they felt it necessary to get Sproles and Gates as many touches as possible.
"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "
by ERL on Jun 6, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Chargers WRs
Assuming the Franchise Tag stays, Vincent Jackson will play for the Chargers in 2011. Sproles is likely gone since someone will pay him more than we will. He already made $14 million the last two years, so it’s possible he stays in SD at lower than market value, but not likely. Someone (my guess is KC, where he’s from) will over pay for his declining skills. Rivers does spread the ball around, having thrown to something like 12 guys who each caught 10+ passes. But with VJax and Gates (hopefully at 100%) out there, you can almost plug in anyone you want into the rest of the lineup because you know they won’t see double coverage. Ryan Mathews, assuming he isn’t injured again, is actually VERY good catching the ball out of the backfield. He will never be LT (few are even close), but he’s definitely a threat catching the ball as well. He commands almost as much attention as Sproles. Essentially, what I’m getting at is that I think Carolina fans value S. Smith a lot more than anyone on the Chargers staff currently does. Gates was hurt most of the year and even ended the season on IR. So I’m not sure I follow your logic there.
Clearly not, friend.
My logic is telling me that the Chargers are not going to give up anything in a trade when they don’t lean heavily on three or four different receivers like most teams will.
When you have a dozen players or more who contribute to the passing attack, you don’t need to spend money or assets on acquiring one WR.
That is my logic. Is that not what you are trying to say as well?
Or would that be agreeing?
"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "
by ERL on Jun 6, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I definitely agree with the trade part.
“but mostly the reason for putrid numbers from the WRs is b/c they felt it necessary to get Sproles and Gates as many touches as possible” Gates was hurt most of the year so that the only thing I was disagreeing with. I think the WR individual numbers were bad because no single WR played the entire year. Everyone was hurt to the point they had multiple practice guys catching their first NFL passes in 2011. I think Rivers broke in at least 3 guys last year. That’s all. Splitting hairs, really. The point is the same. Rivers seemed to do just fine without having studs out lining up out there.
Oddly enough, Vincent Jackson really helped himself out with his holdout. Despite all the success Rivers had without him, the offense was much more explosive with him out there. They lost some close games and there’s no way his presence wouldn’t have helped in some of those games. Word is, if he keeps his nose clean this year, management might offer him a long term contract. We’ll see. I just want some damn football… I’m sick of this lockout.
As a Chargers fan...
I have to say this whole article is completely misplaced. There’s no way in hell the Chargers will trade Garay. No way in freaking hell. He’s playing for nothing right now. He’ll continue to play for nothing until the Chargers franchise him and then give him a long(er) term offer.
He only plays part time because he has a very extensive history of injuries. He’ll probably play a little more this year. And last year, as the season went on, he was on the field more. But he was easily the MVP of the Chargers #1 defense (for most of the year). Actually, he played more than this article implies, as well. He was crucial to the defense, but the entire line was depleted and they used a heavy rotation across the line. That is exactly why the Chargers used their first round pick on Liuget, a beast of a 4-3 tackle they plan to use as a 3-4 end in their defense. Most experts thought they would go outside linebacker to fill the gap Merriman left, but the Chargers don’t want to keep their D-Line by committee approach another year. If they had one weakness, it was that big offense lines pushed them around… all you have to do is see the two losses to the Raiders to understand why.
So, since this is a slow off season for news I suppose I can understand the speculation. But seriously, #71 plays for the Chargers for at least the next two years.
As for Smith, he’s on the decline. This year the Chargers franchise VJax and he’s already gone public saying he’ll play for the $10M that will net him. Chargers will not pay Smith’s salary so nothing gets done there unless it gets restructured. A.J. Smith is a hard ass. He never lets talent go that he has for veteran minimum contract and he doesn’t overpay for aging talent either.
But yeah, Garay is a freaking beast. He is a monster. A.J. Smith doesn’t let guys like that go. He’s filling what Jamal Williams did for a decade and a half, only he can rush the passer better than JWall ever could. Bottom line, he stays in SD.
Okay
Now I’m gonna go over to the Chargers’ SBNation blog and piss in your cheerios.
Talk about how Shaun Phillips is on the decline, and such.
"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "
by ERL on Jun 6, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry man
Just calling it like I see it. A better way to stick it to a Charger’s fan is to say that Gates can’t stay healthy anymore. He was having the best season EVER for a TE until he got injured last year.
Its cool, its cool. I'm mostly joking.
If one payed attention to the NFL last season, then one should know about the emergence of Antonio Garay. I don’t think AJ would trade him, either. Finding a truly dominant DT is very hard to do. And getting away with paying him 1/10th of what he’s worth is only a feat AJ Smith can accomplish.
One thing I will say is: be careful about the d-word talk when it comes to Steve Smith. He can still be extraordinary. He limped through the second half of the season with three or four different injuries. He’s 31. 32 in July. Same age as your boy.
"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "
by ERL on Jun 6, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I still think he's good
VJax, Gates, and S. Smith would be tough to deal with. Similarly, I think Garay’s age makes his long term prospects interesting. I see AJ paying him the minimum and tying him up with tenders and franchise tags for as long as possible. I don’t see a huge long term contract that guarantees him big money and pays him tens of millions when he’s 35. But who knows? AJ does like to reward his own guys. It’s an interesting case. Garay has low mileage for his age, but NT is about as rough as it gets in the NFL. The only position that gets more abuse is RB, I think. Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t mind seeing S. Smith line up for the Chargers, especially if Malcom Floyd is gone. But not for Garay. There aren’t too many players in the NFL I’d trade him straight up for right now, even if he’s only productive for another 3 or 4 years (if that). NT is too important of a position in the 3-4. A NT that can stop the run AND rush the passer? It’s almost unheard of.
Agreed.
I wouldn’t want to trade away a dominant NT either. In fact, our run-defense hasn’t recovered since we traded Kris Jenkins in 2007.
"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "
by ERL on Jun 6, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
By the way...
Congrats on getting Rivera. I don’t know what the sentiment is Carolina over his hiring, but the players here loved him and so did the fans. He definitely had the Chargers defense playing better than they should have on paper. Truthfully, I’m a little worried about a drop off in production on that side of the ball now. As soon as took over the defense from Ted Cottrell, they started to take off. I was sad to see him go but happy for him he finally got that head coach job he was working towards. I’ll be rooting for Carolina any time they don’t play the Chargers now.
The sentiment on Rivera
is pretty much that he’s a BAMF sent here from the gods to lay waste and conquer the rest of the Football Kingdom of National.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Jun 6, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
BBA summed it up wonderfully.
I was sold on Rivera from his first press conference. And he’s put together what looks like an excellent coaching staff. I’m very excited to see how things go. He has an uphill battle to climb with such a young roster, with a rookie QB, and with a shortened offseason (due to the horrid lockout) to work in FA and to work on installing new systems. But I think he’s as up to the task as anyone else could be.
"One play can win a game, but one play cannot lose a game." - Coach Peterson, Boise St.
"When you get into coaching, you strive to be a Super Bowl-winning head coach. That’s what my goal is, to come here and become a Super Bowl-winning head coach and to sustain an atmosphere of winning." - Ron Rivera
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