Blueprint For A New 21st Century Panthers Combo Defense

by PanthersRoar on Jun 29, 2011 10:29 AM EDT

ERL's great post yesterday about how many times the Panther might use a 3-4 defense each game this season got me thinking about an idea I've kicked around in my mind for a over a year now, about a new Combo defense for the 21st century, to counter the increased passing in today's game. Teams are now forced to play a nickle defense 50-60% of the time

The Panthers have actually drafted to counter this problem in an innovative way the last few years, by drafting CB's (Godfrey, Martin, and Pugh) to play their SS and FS positions. In this way the Panthers aren't at a disadvantage when their S's have cover WR's, in 4 or even 5 WR sets.

What I've conjured up is a highly adaptable Combo defense, that can instantly morph from a 4-3 into a 3-4, or even a 3-3-5 defense, without tipping off the offense with player substitutions. Here are ruffly the skills and measureables that would be required for each position (a backup with the same type skills would also be needed for each position).

Player Requirements: (after the jump)

"Big" DE - height 6-2 to 6-7, weight 275-285, 40 time 4.70 to 4.85, 10 yard split 1.60 to 1.68, or better numbers. A good run stopper, who's more of a power than a speed pass rusher. Example - Charles Johnson.

NT - height 6-0 to 6-5, weight 320-350, 40 time 5.15 to 5.40, 10 yard split 1.75 to 1.82, or better numbers. A big wide-body, space-eating, run stopper, and any pass rush is a bonus. Example - Casey Hampton (Steelers).

DT - height 6-2 to 6-5, weight 290-310, 40 time 4.80 to 5.00, 10 yard split 1.60 to 1.72, or better numbers. A strong inside pass rusher, who can blow up running plays in the backfield, stop the run, and shift to 3-4 DE. Example - Ndamukong Suh (Lions), or smaller like the Panthers Derek Landri.

"Small" DE/3-4 OLB - height 6-2 to 6-6, weight 255-270, 40 time 4.60 to 4.70, 10 yard split 1.52 to 1.65, or better numbers. A speed rusher, who can still defend the run, but with the quick reflexes to drop back as a 3-4 OLB. Example - John Abraham (Falcons).

SLB/3-4 ILB - height 6-0 to 6-5, weight 240-260, 40 time 4.4o to 4.60, 10 yard split 1.50 to 1.65, or better numbers. A OLB who's as big as a small DE, who can blitz, and can also get by in coverage, who can shift to a 3-4 ILB when the defense shifts. Example - UDFA Mario Harvey (5-10 7/8, 257, 4.43-40) of Marshall.

MLB - height 6-0 to 6-4, weight 240-250, 40 time 4.40 to 4.60, 10 yard split 1.50 to 1.60, or better numbers. A good size MLB, who can blitz, stuff the run, shead blockers, and cover TE's and RB's over the middle, Example - Patrick Willis.

WLB/SS - height 6-0 to 6-2, weight 230-240, 40 time 4.35 to 4.50, 10 yard split 1.48 to 1.56, or better numbers. Probably the hardest player to find, a SS who can play OLB, who's got the speed to blitz the QB, and be a good pass defender. Example - S-Taylor Mayes (6-3, 230, 4.31-40, 1.45-10) of the 49ers, and the Panthers Thomas Davis.

SS - height 5-11 to 6-3, weight 200-215, 40 time 4.40 to 4.50, 10 yard split 1.48 to 1.55, or better numbers. A CB who plays safety, who can cover a WR in multiple WR sets. Example - Panthers Charles Godfrey.

FS - height 5-11 to 6-3, weight 200-210, 40 time 4.35 to 4.45, 10 yard split, or better numbers. A CB playing FS who can cover a WR in multiple WR sets. Example - Panthers Sherrod Martin.

#1 CB - height 5-10 to 6-2, weight 190-205, 40 time 4.30 to 4.45, 10 yard split 1.45 to 1.54, or better numbers. The teams best shutdown CB, covering the other teams to WR each week. Example - Nnamdi Asomugha (Raiders).

#2 CB - height 5-10 to 6-2, weight 185-200, 40 time 4.30 to 4.45, 10 yard split 1.45 to 1,54, or better numbers, The other starting CB, usually covering the smaller WR. Example - Antonio Cromartie (Jets).

"Nickle" DB - height 5-9 to 6-2, 180-205, 40 time 4.38 to 4.48, 10 yard split, or better numbers. The first DB off the bench in 5 or 6 DB skeems. Example -Panthers Captain Munnerlyn.

How the Panthers might look in this defense:

"Big" DE - re-sign Charles Johnson and Greg Hardy

NT - Sione Fua, and sign UDFA Anthony Gray (5-11 7/8, 330, 5.17-40)

DT - Terrell McClain, and re-sign Derek Landri

"Small" DE - Everrette Brown, Eric Norwood, and Hilee Taylor

SLB - re-sign James Anderson or a better free agent fit, Jason Williams, and sign UDFA Mario Harvey (5-10 7/8, 257, 4.43-40)

MLB - Jon Beason, and Dan Connor

WLB - re-sign Thomas Davis, and hope Josh Barrett (6-2, 223, 4.34-40, 1.50-10) is cut by the Patriots, or Jameson Konz (6-3 1/2, 234, 4.38-40, 46 inch vertical) is cut by the Seahawks

SS - Charles Godfrey, sign UDFA's Keanemana "Manny" Silva (6-0 3/4, 206, 4.41-40, 23 bench reps, 40 inch vertical) of Hawaii, and Ron Parker (5-11 3/4, 206, 4.34-40, 1.54-10)

FS - Sherrod Martin and Jordan Pugh

#1 CB - Chris Gamble, C. J. Wilson, and R. J. Stanford

#2 CB - whoever is signed to replace Marshall, and Brandon Hogan

Nickle DB - Captain Munnerlyn,and Robert McClain

The Panthers really aren't in the best position to try this this season, but free agent signings and next years draft, they could be ready to use it in 2012. However, the Panthers will have first claim on any players who are cut through the first 4 regular season games, so some needs might be filled by veterans who are cut.

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Comments

ERL wrote that article, not Jaxon.

Just thought I’d let you know.

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by BW Smith on Jun 29, 2011 12:07 PM EDT reply actions

I would like to take credit for it but alas...by ethics won't let me!

credit is corrected

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by Jaxon on Jun 29, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions

I started to change it myself...

Then I remembered I’m lazy, lol.

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by BW Smith on Jun 29, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions

My Bad, Thanks For The Correction

Sorry “ERL” for the mistake, thanks “BW” and “Jaxon” for the correction.

by PanthersRoar on Jun 29, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions

No problem.

Solid article, btw.

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by BW Smith on Jun 29, 2011 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions

I think teams have to start changing the way they scout players in this day and age.

You need more speed. That is the most important thing. However, I think the one thing that scouts have started to take for granted is tackling ability. We are seeing far too many missed tackles and poor tackling technique. That’s precisely why I love Manny Silva from Hawaii as an UDFA. I think signing him is a great idea. We are going to need a thumper in the secondary (something we don’t really have at the moment) if we are going to be doing all that blitzing with the front 7.

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by ERL on Jun 29, 2011 12:40 PM EDT reply actions

We are seeing far too many missed tackles and poor tackling technique.

Agreed…and that was one of the reasons I loved BAMF from his first press conference. That was one thing that he specifically addressed. There’s no good excuse for the gross amount of poor tackling technique. Occasionally, you’re just going to not be able to get the best angle. But largely, what we saw in our backfield (ahem…Marshall) was just sloppy technique. Hopefully we’ll see a major change in that with Rivera’s emphasis on that combined with Meeks being dedicated to coaching the defensive backs.

"One play can win a game, but one play cannot lose a game." - Coach Peterson, Boise St.

"When you get into coaching, you strive to be a Super Bowl-winning head coach. That’s what my goal is, to come here and become a Super Bowl-winning head coach and to sustain an atmosphere of winning." - Ron Rivera

by jamiedk on Jun 29, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Hogan looks to be THUMPER

That kid loves crackin people. Really enjoys it!

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by Thee Steve Johnson on Jun 29, 2011 10:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs

He really can tackle for a 190lbs corner.

Love the way he plays. There’s some good video of him on Youtube.

"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "

by ERL on Jun 30, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions

Thanks ERL, Your Right About The Need For Speed

Thanks for liking my “Mana” Silva idea “ERL”, I think he could play either safety position.

Your right about the need for speed, that’s one of the points I made when listing the requirements for each position. The Panthers top 3 S’s all run a 4.44-40 or better,most of their young CB’s run a 4.44-40 or better (Munnerlyn 4.41, Stanford 4.44, Hogan 4.43), most of their LB’s run in the high 4.5’s or better, while most NFL LB’s are between 4.6 to around 4.75, but they really don’t have standout speed on the D-Line (DT McClain might if his Pro Day 4.82-40 is correct, but his 2nd run was 4.96, and all his Combine runs were 5.00 or higher).

Here’s an example of how a play might work in the defense I propose. The “Big” DE takes on the OT sealing that end of the line, while the WLB with 4.4 or better speed speed rushes the QB on that side, then they overload the other end of the line with the “Small” DE, SLB, and MLB all pass rushing, pulling the blocking RB or FB to that side, letting the WLB through untouched to the QB.

by PanthersRoar on Jul 1, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm very visual so reading a bunch of names and numbers on a page doesn't really get a defense across to me.

But where is your pass rush going to come from. Big DE’s and NT’s typically don’t have much pass rush pop, and your smaller DE could be washed out against bigger OT’s. Are you going to blitz a lot, because that opens you to the pass you’re trying to prevent in this defense unless you get there in time. Please don’t take this as me knocking your idea, I’m genuinely curious as to how this would work.

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by Flowing Willow on Jun 29, 2011 12:50 PM EDT reply actions

The Pass Rush Comes From The DE's, DT, and LB's, Enhansed By Uncertainty

Good question “Flowing Willow”, it’s sort of as hard to explain where the pass rush will come from as it is to understand.

The pass rush will be greatly enhansed by the very high degree of flexability/surprise, without substituting players that might tip off the offense what is coming, with last moment shifts, and post snap reads. Here are some examples of what the defense can do.

1. A standard 4-3 defense, with the pass rush coming from the “Big” DE Charles Johnson and Greg Hardy, “Small” DE Everette Brown, Eric Norwood, Hilee Taylor, a veteran pick up, or a pick in the 2012 draft, and the DT’s inside pass rush.

2. A standard 3-4 defense, with the pass rush coming from the “Big” DE, the DT sliding out to the other DE, the “Small” DE droping back to 3-4 OLB, and LB’s, though they could substitute a inside pass rusher for the NT

3. A Nickle defense with 3 linemen, 3 LB’s, and 5 DB’s (the WLB becoming the 5th DB), where the WLB drops back as a 5th DB, and the “Small” DE drops back to OLB.

4. A normal Nickle defense, with a DB replacing either the NT, DT, or LB.

5. Zone Blitzs, like when Peppers would drop back in coverage, and the OLB would blitz.

6. Blitzs from any and all LB’s at any time, though it’s not a Beason strong point.

7.. A surprise blitz from any of the DB’s, with the WLB replacing them in coverage.

The key to the defense, and hardest player to find is the WLB, who has just enough size to play 4-3 OLB, the speed to play SS or other DB position, and the ability to speed rush the QB on a blitz. Then a “Small” DE who can drop back to a 3-4 OLB, a DT who can shift out to a 3-4 DE, and a 4-3 SLB who can shift to a 3-4 ILB.

by PanthersRoar on Jun 29, 2011 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Oh okay I think I get it now.

Definitely could work, would be vulnerable to the quick snap though I think?

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by Flowing Willow on Jun 29, 2011 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions

I think Jason Williams would be good in that

SLB/ILB roll.

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by Thee Steve Johnson on Jun 29, 2011 10:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

#2 There is almost always an LB or two coming in the 3-4

The trick, as you mentioned, is that the O-Line doesn’t see that up front – so they can’t point and talk about who is covering whom in the blocking before the snap. With luck, there is someone standing around looking for someone to block, while another part of the line is having to let someone go because they guessed wrong.

I wonder how this does as a “Times Square” defense were there is maybe one player, or maybe none with his hand on the ground?

by panthersnbraves on Jun 30, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions

We employed the TS defensive lineup several times last year, with success.

I’m sure McDermott is well aware of its advantages.

The key to any pass rush is, even more than a strong bull rush, the threat of pass rushers coming from any direction, and angle.

by bigdavis on Jun 30, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions

About the big and small DEs...

I like having two of each, regardless of your type of defense, because every defense is going to have a formation with 4 down-lineman, 1 backer and 6 DBs. I like being able to move your big DEs inside to play DT, particularly if your DTs offer little pass rush.

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by ERL on Jun 29, 2011 1:07 PM EDT reply actions

+1

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by Thee Steve Johnson on Jun 29, 2011 10:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

Totally agree

This is part of what I think makes CJ so valuable.

by BusyBeingAwesome on Jun 30, 2011 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions

Displaying my ignorance -

How does this work out compared to the “Four Aces” setup that the Giants ran?

by panthersnbraves on Jun 30, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions

Same thing.

And most teams will take out at least one DT (typically the fatter one) for obvious passing downs. They’ll slide their biggest DE into a DT spot, and put a backup DE or even a big OLB as the weak-side DE.

"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "

by ERL on Jun 30, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Sorry - this opened up too many "waht if's" for me

Given that so many TE’s are really WR’s in today game – who covers the Welker/Clark/Gates’ ? One of the Safeties?

by panthersnbraves on Jun 30, 2011 1:08 PM EDT reply actions

Either The WLB Or One Of The DB's

This defense has a couple of options for covering fast TE’s “panthersnbraves”.

1. One of the 4 DB’s, probably the SS.

2. The WLB, who often drops back as a 5th DB.

3. The SLB/3-4 MLB, if it’s Jason Williams (6-1, 246, 4.44-40, 1.49-10), or UDFA Mario Harvey (5-10 7/8, 257, 4.43-40), if he signs with the Panthers.

The Broncos have used an approach much like what I propose with the WLB position with Wesley Woodyard (6-0 3/8, 227, 4.54-40) who played SS at Kentucky, since 2008. Here are some other players now in the NFL who might be able to do the same, and are on the fringe of rosters, so they might be cut or traded at the cutdown date.

From the 2010 draft:

LB/S/FB/TE/WR Jameson Konz (6-3 1/2, 234, 4.38-40, 46 inch verticle, 10-8 broad jump) of the Seahawks. He started out as a college S, moved to LB as a junior, and TE as a senior, with 21 catches.

FS Michael Greco (6-2 7/8, 224, 4.40-40, 41 1/2 inch vertical, 10-9 broad jump) of the Packers, who with their depth at DB may be forced to cut him. He was the starting QB for UCF until 2009, when he moved to FS.

FS Quentin Scott (6-3 7/8, 224, 34 5/8 inch arms, 4.40-40) of the Raiders.

From the 2008 draft:

SS Josh Barrett (6-1 3/4, 223, 4.34-40, 1.50-10) of the Patriots. He spent 2010 on IR, and with the Patriots depth he may be cut.

SS Caleb Campbell (6-2, 229, 4.48-40, 1.57-10) of the Lions.

by PanthersRoar on Jun 30, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions

The LB we drafted.

What’s his name, Larry Wilson? I thought I heard that he is a coverage guy.

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by ERL on Jun 30, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions

Lawrence Wilson Is Good, But His Speed Is A Question

Lawrence Wilson (6-0 7/8, 229, 30 1/2 inch arms, 4.75-40, a Pro Day 4.56-40, 1.68-10) of U Conn was a tackling machine, with season totals of 113, 73, 140, and 123, in 13 games each year. However, his speed is somewhat questionable, with a very good Pro Day 4.56-40, but an “official” Combine of a slightly below average 4.75-40 (that’s a wide gap), with unofficial times of 4.72 and 4.69. However, his 1.68-10 yard split is shockingly slow, 309 pound DT Marvin Austin even ran a 1.64-10.

by PanthersRoar on Jun 30, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Can he flip the hips? That is more important than a 40 time. Seems like his biggest strength was coverage, so maybe they picked him with that in mind…that is to say he can be the guy over 220lbs who doesn’t blitz. ;)

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by ERL on Jun 30, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions