Greatest Panther of all time: Muhsin Muhammad vs. DeAngelo Williams
by James Dator on Jun 15, 2011 1:01 PM EDT
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PrintI told you in the comment section of this morning's match up that the afternoon duel was going to be much tougher. From where I sit this could be one of the toughest head-to-heads we have in the first round. The Panthers' all time leading receiver, vs. the Panthers' all time leading rusher.
Fans- you know the drill. After the jump we'll have a breakdown of the exploits of both players as well as their statistics while playing for Carolina. Remember to comment in the section for the purposes of spirited debate... this should be a good one.
Muhsin Muhammad, WR
Statistics as a Panther: 155 games, 696 receptions, 9,255 yards receiving, 50 TD
Two time Pro Bowler while in Carolina, 2004 All Pro, 2004 Receiver of the year
- "MOOOOOOSE!" One simple word that sums up a career. For a long time he was as close to an original Panther as John Kasay after being a 2nd round selection in the 1996 draft. Muhammad was the kind of possession receiver every team wanted, but few actually had. The 2003 and 04 years were his zenith when recorded an 85 yard TD reception in the Superbowl in 2003, and then followed up with a scintillating 2004 season where he totaled 1,405 yard and 16 TDs.
Statistics as a Panther: 64 games, 4,211 rushing yards, 35 total TD
Pro Bowler (2009), All-Pro (2008)
- Though it's been 64 short games RB DeAngelo Williams has been in rare form since arriving from the university of Memphis. Starting his career buried behind DeShaun Foster it didn't take long for the organization to realize he was the RB of the future. Never was this more prevalent than in 2008 when Williams rushed for 1,515 yards and 18 touchdowns. Now, he's part of the deadly 'Double Trouble' tandem with Jonathan Stewart and many fans hope to see D-Will for a long, long time.
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Gotta give the nod to Moose here because he played longer.
In 5 years, my answer might be different (if D-Will doesn’t leave via Free Agency), but right now Moose gets the nod.
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
by BW Smith on Jun 15, 2011 1:03 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Took the words right out of my mouth.
D-Will is special, but Moose has done it longer. Plus, he is one of the greatest blocking receivers we’ve seen. I’ve seen him take on defensive ends that have him by 60 pounds. That has to count for something.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Jun 15, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I was wondering why I had slobber on my fingers.
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
Awesome Sauce?
It’s marketable…
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
I wouldn't say "marketable." I wouldn't buy it.
;)
"One play can win a game, but one play cannot lose a game." - Coach Peterson, Boise St.
"When you get into coaching, you strive to be a Super Bowl-winning head coach. That’s what my goal is, to come here and become a Super Bowl-winning head coach and to sustain an atmosphere of winning." - Ron Rivera
Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
Who's to say this cow's milk is free?!
by BusyBeingAwesome on Jun 15, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you just call yourself a cow?
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
In this beautiful analogy, I am the cow.
But bees-knees would be more apt.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Jun 15, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
If we're keeping this in the animal realm.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Jun 15, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
My goodness...
"One play can win a game, but one play cannot lose a game." - Coach Peterson, Boise St.
"When you get into coaching, you strive to be a Super Bowl-winning head coach. That’s what my goal is, to come here and become a Super Bowl-winning head coach and to sustain an atmosphere of winning." - Ron Rivera
by jamiedk on Jun 15, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Of course, I did my part in derailing it. =)
So….
Go Moose! The man had an awesome and long career. Sorry D-Will, you’re super-talented, but Moose is a tough one to go up against.
"One play can win a game, but one play cannot lose a game." - Coach Peterson, Boise St.
"When you get into coaching, you strive to be a Super Bowl-winning head coach. That’s what my goal is, to come here and become a Super Bowl-winning head coach and to sustain an atmosphere of winning." - Ron Rivera
Not if he can't stay healthy
Moose had a nice long career. I’m
not sure DeAngelo has 2-3 more full seasons in him.
stay thirsty my friends
by southtunnel on Jun 15, 2011 1:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That's why I used the word "might"... :-)
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
Steve Smith
stay thirsty my friends
by southtunnel on Jun 15, 2011 1:06 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
LOL you're going to do this on every single one aren't you?
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
Yes :)
And it will probably annoy so many people that they’ll vote against Smitty just to spite me.
stay thirsty my friends
by southtunnel on Jun 15, 2011 1:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
So your master plan...
And it will probably annoy so many people that they’ll vote against Smitty just to spite me.
is for Smitty not to win?
…and yes, I will vote against him, simply to spite you. :)
by BusyBeingAwesome on Jun 15, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Hopefully Smitty is one on one with Kasay...
Just so he loses to a kicker. :-)
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
It's not my "master" plan
Just the consequence of my childish antics.
Steve Smith!
stay thirsty my friends
by southtunnel on Jun 15, 2011 1:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He could be if we did this WWE style.
Imagine Jim Ross (the only one who should ever call a WWE match, IMO):
And Moose has D-Will in a rear naked choke hold…and….wait, what is that? GOOD GOD! THAT’S STEVE SMITH’S MUSIC! STEVE SMITH IS COMING TO THE RING FOR MOOSE…HE HITS HIM WITH THE STUNNER!!! OH MY GOD WHAT A SLOBBERKNOCKER WE HAVE HERE…STEVE SMITH IS DESTROYING MOOSE! HE’S BEATING HIM LIKE A GOVERNMENT MULE!!!
Yeah, I watched way too much wresting when I was a kid, lol.
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
by BW Smith on Jun 15, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
I watched to much wrestling too
And therefore I Rec and approve this statement.
This comment section has officially been Tater'd.
+1998
For the Steve Smith theme music interruption, the government mule reference, and for the last year I remember caring about wrestling.
Hilarious.
Not afraid. - Deuteronomy 31:6
by dowhatchado on Jun 15, 2011 8:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooossssssssssseeeeeeee
As awesome as some other receiver has been here in Carolina, Moose is still our leading receiver. He may not be the game breaker that our other, more diminutive, target is, but he was the perfect possession receiver. You could always count on him to make the 1st down grab. From the time we drafted him to the time he retired, he was one of our most valuable Panthers. So much so, that after a brief and ineffective stint with Da Bears, we had to re-sign him and make him instantly effective again. I firmly believe that had we been able to afford his salary instead of letting him go to da Bears, he would have easily finished his career with over 10,000 yds for our team.
As awesome as D-Lo is, he is not a legend yet. He might be some day if we can manage to keep him… but Moose is a legend RIGHT NOW.
So I say again…
MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
This comment section has officially been Tater'd.
At this point it really boils down to comparing their best seasons
You can’t compare career because Moose would kill DeAngelo’s shirt stint as a starter.
So the only debate is Moose’s 2004 vs DWill’s 2008. And I don’t DeAngelo even has a chance there. In 04 Moose led all receivers in the league that year… With no Steve Smith and a 3rd string RB. DWill had a ProBowl run in 08, but he didn’t lead all RBs. And he had a healthy Stewart and 2 very good vet WRs.
stay thirsty my friends
by southtunnel on Jun 15, 2011 1:16 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
You raise a great point here ST... but maybe not in the way you originally thought
The crux of your overall argument is that nobody is close to Steve Smith in this discussion… well, I find it very curious that by your own admission Moose’s 2004 was dominant. I’d go so far as to say it was as dominant as any WR season we’ve seen in the last decade.
As vaunted as we say Smitty’s triple crown was (and it was amazing) that season only resulted in 10 more receptions, 150 more yards and 4 less TDs than Moose’s 2004.
This kind of flies in the face of those who say Jake was nothing without Smitty… because, well, Moose did almost the same thing when Smith wasn’t on the field. Can we say the same about Smitty’s triple crown? In the case of Smith’s 2005 the threat of Moose (coming off his stellar 2004) definitely meant he needed to be accounted for more whereas Moose was along in 2004 and still found a way to dominate.
For these reasons along I like Delhomme and Moose belong in the same conversation with Smitty. Not quite as cut and dry as you make it appear
by James Dator on Jun 15, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
Haters
stay thirsty my friends
by southtunnel on Jun 15, 2011 1:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Excuse me... 2004's 7 wins vs 2005's 14 wins!
Smitty’s performance actually took us deep into the playoffs. Not to mention Keary Colbert took pressure off Moose in 04 with 750 yards. He only mustered up 280 in 05… Smitty carried us that year.
stay thirsty my friends
by southtunnel on Jun 15, 2011 1:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I beg to differ my good sir
Would you agree that the run opens up the pass? I probably would…
2004: Goings and Foster combine for 1,076 yards
2005: Foster and Davis combine for 1,428 yards
Therefore, the pass was opened up more for Jake (and by extension Smitty).
Was it really Smitty who took us ‘deep into the playoffs’ or the 17 rushing touchdowns the run game contributed vs. the 10 the running game gave the Panthers in 2004?
Did you remove playoffs in your numbers good sir?
stay thirsty my friends
by southtunnel on Jun 15, 2011 1:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Absolutely
One team didn’t make the playoffs, so the comparison has to be even. However, crediting Steve Smith with getting the Panthers deep in the playoffs is as ludicrous to me as blaming him for losing the NFC Championship game when Marcus Trufant schooled him.
If you have to make the comparrison even you have to do the same for Wiliams vs Moose.
In less than half the games, Williams had more than half the touchdowns as Moose.
That's much more difficult to do because they play different positions.
Running backs always average more touchdowns than WRs because of goal line situations.
Case in point, the Johnsons:
- Chris Johnson has 34 TDs in three season, while Calvin Johnson has 33 in 4 seasons… that doesn’t mean Chris is drastically better than Calvin, just that he had more opportunities to score.
In order for an RB to have a positive play they only need the OL to make their blocks, from there it’s all on the running back to make the play.
Meanwhile the WR relies on the line to block for the QB, and then the QB to make the play… only then do they get a chance.
Ludicrous is crediting Stephen Davis' 3 ypc over Smitty's triple crown season
Let’s break down the 2005 numbers, shall we?
Stephen Davis: 549 total yards, 3.0 ypc!
Bananas Foster: 879 total yards, 4.3 ypc… And that is padded by one garbage time game against ATL. Without that he averaged friggin 3.6 ypc.
Keary Colbert: 282 friggin receiving yards, 25 receptions.
Steve Smith: 1,563 yards (leading the NFL), 103 receptions (leading the NFL, 12 TDS (leading the NFL, and 12 show stopping end-zone routine… ProBowl
Can a WR get a team to the playoffs with no help at all? No! But Smitty was by far the biggest contributor to that season… Especially over whatever Stephen Davis garbage you’re boasting.
stay thirsty my friends
For "ludicrous" look no further than game 8
Stephen Davis had 40 total yards, on 2.4 ypc. Yet he managed 2 TDs, in a 38-13 win. Now how is that??? Ya think maybe Steve Smith’s 11 receptions and 201 yards had something to do with that? Just maybe?
Yes Smitty carried the team that year.
stay thirsty my friends
17 total rushing touchdowns is hardly 'garbage'
Lest we forget that was 5 more than Smitty had on the year.
Nobody is saying 2005 wasn’t an amazing year for Smith, but to make it seem so cut and dry is completely shortsighted.
They are garbage if you remember that season
Fox an his commitment to run, would give Davis the ball on the 1 yard line, after Smitty did all the work moving the chains. Eric Shelton could have had 17 TDs that year.
3 ypc James!!!
stay thirsty my friends
by southtunnel on Jun 16, 2011 2:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well, being the goalline back is going to hurt your YPC average.
But I’m not getting into this one (anymore than I just did).
"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "
I think we can all agree on one thing in this...
It all makes Keary Colbert look pretty terrible. Did he have a decent 2004? sure. But even with a dominant #1 WR and a highly effective running game in 2005, he couldn’t contribute.
He brings shame upon the Colbert name.
This comment section has officially been Tater'd.
by Tater596 on Jun 15, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
That picture is full of win.
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
by BW Smith on Jun 15, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Really, really want a flame sword now.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Jun 15, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously. That would be epic.
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
We shall find a flaming sword, and deliver it to Lord BAMF.
For it is he who shall lead us to the promised land.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Jun 15, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I lol’d at Lord BAMF.
When I get home I’m photoshopping a picture of BAMF with a flaming sword.
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
by BW Smith on Jun 15, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I cannot WAIT to see this...
I kinda like power running football though. It’s iike a bloody violent ballet…
When it was working it was a thing of beauty to me. - Vagus
(Please note that from now on I shall only refer to Cam as "The Newt" and Rivera as "BAMF")
by The Duke Dude on Jun 15, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
You just wanted an excuse to post that didn't you?
Yes I'm a dude.
by Flowing Willow on Jun 15, 2011 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions
And here is Rivera with a flaming sword...
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
by BW Smith on Jun 15, 2011 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
I have a photo shop request BW.
Please please please keep the face, shop the armor into panthers color and replace the eagle with a Panther. The win will never end.
I started to do that originally...
I will do it since you asked. :-)
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
Yes. Pre-marriage.
"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "
You must not be married...
Otherwise you wouldn’t be laughing.
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
lol.
No, I’m aware. You really know it when it goes from
Do it! Do it now!
To,
Fine, go ahead.
To
…I’m just so tired right now. Tomorrow. Yeah, tomorrow’s good.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Jun 16, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
And then the next day...
“Umm…not tonight. How about tomorrow?”
“But you said that last night.”
“No, I didn’t.”
“Yes, you did. I heard you say it.”
“Are you calling me a liar? Looks like tomorrow’s out too.”
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
BW, meet couch. (And a day or so of random passive aggressiveness.)
"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "
(or so = about 4 days...)
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
I usually get
I know, I did say that last night. But I didn’t think I’d be so (insert some form of "I don’t feel well here) today.
…and the cycle continues
by BusyBeingAwesome on Jun 16, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
To which you reply...
“I’m going in the other room to watch The View.”
"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "
Was it George Carlin who said something like:
“No woman wants to have sex with anyone. Ever. Get used to it.”
Not sure if it was Carlin, but that’s one of those that you keep in the memory bank for some reason.
"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "
here ya go...
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
by BW Smith on Jun 16, 2011 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I kinda want to vote again because poor D-Will
is getting smoked. He deserves better than that.
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing you will be an idiot in the future and common sense is knowing you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques
Unfortunately he doesn't if he's up against Moose.
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
Well when I last checked he had 0 votes
he’s got a few now though, so that’s better.
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing you will be an idiot in the future and common sense is knowing you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques
If we only consider 2008, DWill wins
I’d put that year’s offensive play-maker pecking order like this…
DeAngelo, STEVE SMITH!, Stewart, Moose
stay thirsty my friends
by southtunnel on Jun 15, 2011 1:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Moose in the twilight of his career.
You can’t just consider 2008.
That’s like saying cell phones were more effective than land lines in 2010. Sure, cell phones had a great year, but land lines had been doing it for decades before finally they became less useful.
This comment section has officially been Tater'd.
I'm not sayin... Just trying to give DWill some love
stay thirsty my friends
by southtunnel on Jun 15, 2011 1:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Absolutely
I hate reflecting on 2008. So many great things were in store for us… we had all the weapons we needed.
Except ONE.
This comment section has officially been Tater'd.
Well, maybe we have that weapon now
Sadly possibly without a receiver though
stay thirsty my friends
Moose
U just gotta believe that if he didn’t go to Chicago, he would’ve ended his career with over 10,000 yards. Period
Don't forget the work off the field
Moose has been a vital component of the Charlotte social life every year of his career. His community service represents what the organization stands for and it has to be accounted for when considering the greatest Panther.
by Scotch on the Prowl on Jun 15, 2011 3:03 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
I was also happy to hear that he helped at the player-organized workouts...
He’s definitely someone that the young WRs could learn from – he had a strong and long career. I feel like he’s someone who would be happy to share tricks of the trade and how to handle various situations from his experience.
Also – shoutout to the other former Panthers who came out to the workouts. I know Beurelein was there, and if I’m not mistaken, Wesley Walls and Mike Minter were, too.
"One play can win a game, but one play cannot lose a game." - Coach Peterson, Boise St.
"When you get into coaching, you strive to be a Super Bowl-winning head coach. That’s what my goal is, to come here and become a Super Bowl-winning head coach and to sustain an atmosphere of winning." - Ron Rivera
The Competition is, "Greatest Panther of All Time"
Not best single season for a Panther. Therefore, I have to give the nod to Moose.
I love D-Will, I think he is phenomenal, but if we’re talking entire body of work… He just hasn’t done enough yet. Although 1500+ yards is a very good starting point!
I just think given Moose’s contributions to the team and his long productive career, he has to get my vote.
In situations like this when things are bad, the easy thing to do is fold up the tent, just pack it up and accept it. But winners and people who are successful realize that when things get tough, it’s an opportunity to define yourself. They realize that in this moment, you can do something great. - Jon Beason
by Tarheel Soldier on Jun 15, 2011 3:54 PM EDT reply actions
Can't believe u made me choose between D-Will and Moose...
it just aint right. I voted but I’m not happy about it!!
by rawjem01 on Jun 15, 2011 4:50 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Gotta go with Moose
D-Will might be there in a few years, but he just hasn’t had long enough to me.
I kinda like power running football though. It’s iike a bloody violent ballet…
When it was working it was a thing of beauty to me. - Vagus
(Please note that from now on I shall only refer to Cam as "The Newt" and Rivera as "BAMF")
Moose
I thought we were gonna win it after he caught that 87-yarder.
Not afraid. - Deuteronomy 31:6
by dowhatchado on Jun 15, 2011 8:51 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
If we keep DeAngelo this result could be very different in a few years.
DeAngelo is a much more explosive scorer and racks up the long runs. He could very well eclipse Moose with a Super Bowl run and 4-5 more years of stellar production.
Yes I'm a dude.
MOOOOOOSE
as much as i love deangelo and hope he stays, theres no doubt this goes to moose. no need to really argue it.
but in five or so seasons, jon beason could very well be the greatest panther of all time
D-LO might get to Moose status one day.
But not today. Moose you are the man & the crossover football dribbling king. Hope Fox will team you up with Rucker & Eugene Robinson to cover the games this preseason. Can’t wait to see you guys get a Sunday Gig. I’ll bet Atlanta still couldn’t cover you on a slant route. I was late posting to the G.O.A.T. list guys, but I had a few that seemed to get overlooked in the nominating process. Lamar Lathon & Thomas Davis, along with Chris Gamble, Chris Harris, & Doug Evans. And like I posted before don’t forget about Evans club fist, afterall it could have the Panther record for most pass deflections in a single game or season. I know none of these guys would win the polls but I just felt they deserved mentioning. Maybe we should have a greatest panther of all time in a supporting roll. With players such as Morgan, T. Davis, Lathon, Rucker, Kemoeatu, Evans, R. Manning, C. Harris, S. Davis, D. Foster, N. Goings, R. Proehl, & Todd Sauerbrahn. Or maybe like the greatest sub for an injured starter. Nick Goings during the playoffs or Brad Hoover having a 100yd day against Tampa? Oh by the way that SB catch by Moose is the longest pass in SB history. The only play that trumps it on yardage is James Harrisons Int return a few years ago. I still say he was down on the 1yd line as time expired. His Forearm drug the grass for like 2&1/2 ft. Just tryin to make myself feel better about Arz. thumping us. Man I wish we were talkin about training camp opening up right now. GO PANTERS!!
"For a man dat don't go heels you run yur mouth pretty reckless don't ya."
"No need to go heels to get the bulge on a wretch like you."
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