Can the Panthers afford to carry two kickers in 2011?

by James Dator on Jun 14, 2011 1:00 PM EDT

The habit of carrying two kickers has become commonplace for the Carolina Panthers. The original Panther John Kasay is still as accurate as the day is long, but unfortunately he just doesn't have the leg anymore to hold the kickoff duties; that was until the NFL passed the new ruling moving up kickoffs 5 yards.

This likely means that Jason Baker will handle the KO duties, which Kasay will remain for his accuracy- but where does this put Rhys Lloyd? There's little doubting the Booming Brit is a fan favorite. Just look at our collective elation when it was announced he would be returning to the Panthers. When fans have that kind of attachement to a kickoff specialist it should tell you a little something about his role.

As it stands nobody really knows how teams will handle kickoffs in 2011. Will they elect to hit the end-zone like normal? Or will they elect for a sky high, rugby-esque kickoff to pin teams within their own 10 yard line?

More after the jump

In 2010 a kickoff of 70 yards was required to get into the endzone, and roughly a kickoff of 74 yards was needed for a touchback. In 2011 and beyond it will only take 65 yards for the endzone and roughly 69 yards for a touchback.

When John Kasay attempted kickoffs last year he averaged just 57 yards per kick. Under the NFL's new rules this would cause him to reach the opposing 8 yard line. So we come to Rhys Lloyd who in 2010 averaged a kickoff of 66.5 yards. If this were to translate into the NFL's new rules it would mean Lloyd's average exceeds the end-zone, essentially giving the Panthers a great many touch back's by nature.

Jason Baker is the unknown quantity in this equation. I can't find reliable stats on any of his past kickoffs so it's hard to know what his average is. Can he fulfill the duty at all? Time will tell.

What do you think Panthers' fans? Can the organization afford to carry two kickers this season if it means guaranteeing a touch back on every kickoff?

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No.

Nor do I suspect that they want to carry two. If you are going to carry two, then let the KO guy take the 53+ yard attempts.

"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "

by ERL on Jun 14, 2011 1:03 PM EDT reply actions

I said it in my raving review of the kickers last week...

But I think Lloyd is gone. They’ll use that roster spot for an extra WR or O/D Lineman. Baker will start the year handling kickoff duties, and if he can’t cut it they’ll sign Lloyd (or someone else) during the season to take over.

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by BW Smith on Jun 14, 2011 1:06 PM EDT reply actions

It was quite “raving.”

"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "

by ERL on Jun 14, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions

Agreed BW. Hell, pull in a younger guy with a strong enough leg for kick-offs and enough

accuracy to eventually take over for ol’ number 4.

Has anybody seen Otah. What, did he just fall off the planet, or become a new one?

by Rick Bates on Jun 14, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions

To address the rule changes...I think Baker could work on his leg strength a little

And start blasting them in the endzone given that he has 5 less yards to kick.

"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "

by ERL on Jun 14, 2011 1:09 PM EDT reply actions

Well, a few things

Kicking and Punting are fundamentally different. I’m hopeful Baker can pull it off, but specialists are usually specialists for a reason. It may look like the easiest job in the NFL, but being top 32 in the world and the intricacies involved to get to such status is not something that should be overlooked.

Also, there is a very good possibility that the kicking rule change will backfire in a big way that the league didn’t anticipate. The league average KO return, last year, is somewhere around 25 yards….now the touchback is 25 yards and the kickers get 5 more yards to work with. Strong special teams units with a powerful and accurate kicker could be aiming for the 3 yard line with more hangtime, actually increasing the number of returned kickoffs and injuries.

by ppalm on Jun 14, 2011 1:42 PM EDT reply actions

I may be wrong, but didn't they vote down moving the ball to the 25 on touchbacks?

Has anybody seen Otah. What, did he just fall off the planet, or become a new one?

by Rick Bates on Jun 14, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions

I thought so.

But it seems like the KO will be handled from the 35.

"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "

by ERL on Jun 14, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions

ohhhh, ok. In that case touchbacks will still be a mainstay. I missed that part

by ppalm on Jun 14, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions

I think Lloyd will not be retained, but will be picked up again once the season starts

Kasay does not have the leg to survive a full season.

Don't give up, don't ever give up ~ Jim Valvano

by AParker on Jun 14, 2011 1:59 PM EDT reply actions

The NFL can be so silly sometimes

So you move the kickoff forward 5 yards to encourage more touchbacks and thereby hope to prevent some of the injuries that occur commonly in the kickoffs. But you fail to realize that teams and strategies will adapt to take advantage of this new rule and that ultimately people are going to get hurt worse.

I suspect that many teams will ask their KOS to hit a skyrocket off the tee with a high arc with the hopes it will come down between the 5 and goal line. If it does, be prepared to see KR take a lot more big hits, and be told to take a knee if it comes down at all within the end zone.

In short… I think we will see more touchbacks, but I also think that when we do actually get a return, we are going to see some big hits and injuries.

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by Tater596 on Jun 14, 2011 2:12 PM EDT reply actions

With kickoffs...

As a returner you can literally catch the ball at the 2 and run back into the endzone and take a knee. We might see this happen to counter the strategy you outlined above.

"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "

by ERL on Jun 14, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions

Was this a new addition to the rule?

Under the old rules that would have resulted in a safety

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by James Dator on Jun 14, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions

There is no such thing as a "safety" on a KO anymore.

"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "

by ERL on Jun 14, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Whoa...

Then yes, you’re absolutely right. Teams will just run it back and take it back to the 20 on skyrocket kicks

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by James Dator on Jun 14, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Unless "rule b" below is enforced during KOs

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/safety2

"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "

by ERL on Jun 14, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions

But I don’t believe it is.

Another example:

You can catch a KO with one foot out of the back of the endzone and its still a touch-back.

"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "

by ERL on Jun 14, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Hold on...don't quote me yet...

"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "

by ERL on Jun 14, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions

Not sure if these have been updated,

But under the “safety scores” heading, you’ll see a contradictary report:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_%28American_football_score%29

"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "

by ERL on Jun 14, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions

All I know is that if you retreat into your own endzone and are tackled or down the ball it is a safety

Unless that rule has been changed… which I feel like would have been made a big deal if it was changed for the kickoffs.

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by Tater596 on Jun 14, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't think you can be at the two yard line and do it.

But it sounds like if any part of your body is behind the goal-line, you have the option to kneel for a TB.

"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "

by ERL on Jun 14, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions

Correct, and I think it has always been that way

If either you catch the ball in any part of the endzone or your momentum carries you into the endzone and you go down, it is a touchback. If you are outside the endzone and you retreat into it, it is a safety.

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by Tater596 on Jun 14, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions

What I find interesting is:

Why is it not a safety when the returner catches the ball with one foot out the back of the endzone? Or sometimes you’ll see them catch it and take that little step back with one leg to take a knee, but that back foot will be out of bounds. I’ve never understood why that is not a safety. It is during an offensive play…thinking about Dan Orlovsky’s infamous play.

"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "

by ERL on Jun 14, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions

With this said...

It is clear to me that there are different rules regarding a safety for kickoffs and during an offensive play. This is why I’m under the impression that you can actually go back and take a knee after coming out of the endzone, and it would still be considered a touch-back rather than a safety.

"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "

by ERL on Jun 14, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Nope. That is a safety.

If you field a ball outside the endzone and run back in, no matter if it is via a kick or interception or fumble, it is a safety.

If your momentum carries you into the endzone from the field of play in process of making the catch or recovering a fumble, it is a touchback.

but you cannot WILLINGLY retreat into the endzone and down it for a touchback.

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by Tater596 on Jun 14, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions

addendum

This also applies if you field a ball in the endzone, run out, then think better of it and run back in. SAFETY.

Think of a big ol’ “DO NOT ENTER” fence going up on the plane of the goal line after the player crosses it, and if the player runs back and crashes into it… its a safety.

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by Tater596 on Jun 14, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions

Because for all intents and purposes you are still going down within the endzone

Really there is not much difference from catching that ball 1 yard farther forward than where you caught it. In both cases with a kick that deep you are not going to be returning it.

But, the chief rule for a safety is that you have to start OUTSIDE the endzone and willingly retreat into it for there to be a safety on a kick of any sort.

I’ll do you one better… what would happen if a player fielded the ball completely in the end zone near the sideline, started to run with it, breaking the plane of the end zone, then thought better of it and decided to take a knee in the end zone but his foot already went out of bounds in the end zone but the ball was in the field of play?

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by Tater596 on Jun 14, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions

I think the rapture would happen...

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by BW Smith on Jun 14, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions

Sounds like you

Sounds like you’d get the ball where your forward progress stopped after you came out of the endzone…so like, at the 1.

"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "

by ERL on Jun 14, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions

If you start inside the endzone and bring it out but decide to go back in...

You can take a knee for a TB. Never seen that called as a safety, but have seen it happen more than once.

"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a sh!t about the rules? Mark it zero! "

by ERL on Jun 14, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions

I've always thought that once you go out, you can go back in...

From NFL.com (emphasis mine)

Safety

The important factor in a safety is impetus. Two points are scored for the opposing team when the ball is dead on or behind a team’s own goal line if the impetus came from a player on that team.

    Examples of Safety:

    a) Blocked punt goes out of kicking team’s end zone. Impetus was provided by punting team. The block only changes direction of ball, not impetus.

b) Ball carrier retreats from field of play into his own end zone and is downed. Ball carrier provides impetus.

    c) Offensive team commits a foul and spot of enforcement is behind its own goal line.

    d) Player on receiving team muffs punt and, trying to get ball, forces or illegally kicks (creating new impetus) it into end zone where it goes out of the end zone or is recovered by a member of the receiving team in the end zone.

    Examples of Non-Safety:

    a) Player intercepts a pass with both feet inbounds in the field of play and his momentum carries him into his own end zone. Ball is put in play at spot of interception.

    b) Player intercepts a pass in his own end zone and is downed in the end zone, even after recovering in the end zone. Impetus came from passing team, not from defense. (Touchback)

    c) Player passes from behind his own goal line. Opponent bats down ball in end zone. (Incomplete pass)

To me, it seems like that rule would include kickoff returns.

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by BW Smith on Jun 14, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions

*forgot to add...

The reason I think this includes kickoff returns is the returner doesn’t become a “ballcarrier” until he leaves the end zone with the football. But, once he does, then it’s just like any other situation when someone is running with the ball near the goal line.

That’s just how I see it…

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by BW Smith on Jun 14, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions

I really like the coach from Rutgers' idea on kickoffs

Very, very interesting idea.

This is Schiano’s plan: Replace all kickoffs with a punting situation, including after the opening coin toss and to start the second half. So, as an example, when Team A scores a touchdown, it immediately gets the ball back on a fourth and 15 from its own 30-yard line.

It can punt it back to Team B — the most likely outcome and a safer play since the bigger collisions usually happen on kickoffs.

Or it can line up and go for the first down, essentially replacing an onside kick with an offensive play that would require more skill than luck.

Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing you will be an idiot in the future and common sense is knowing you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

by Vagus on Jun 14, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs

I thought I remembered reading that recently..

…but I don’t remember where. It sounded pretty interesting and could seriously change strategy and improve the excitement level for fans.

I kinda like power running football though. It’s iike a bloody violent ballet…
When it was working it was a thing of beauty to me. - Vagus

(Please note that from now on I shall only refer to Cam as "The Newt" and Rivera as "BAMF")

by The Duke Dude on Jun 14, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions

one significant difference that I see is this

on the 4th and 15 play, the call is almost always going to be a pass, (unless you’re watching the Broncos). When that pass is incomplete the ball comes back to the line of scrimmage (ie, the ‘kicking’ team’s 30), Whereas the receiving team gets the onside kick wherever they acquire possession which is generally better, yardage-wise, for the kicking team. I just don’t think too many teams would rather have that option than the option of an onside kick. Maybe if the rule for that one play was to turn over possession wherever the incomplete pass becomes incomplete.

by Floods on Jun 15, 2011 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions