Joe Fortenbaugh: Trading down for Panthers would be "a respectable first step towards being an NFC contender."
by James Dator on Apr 15, 2011 4:28 PM EDT
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Let's be clear that Joe Fortenbaugh of the National Football Post openly admits that his piece falls in the realm of conspiracy theory, but he does offer a compelling argument as to why it would be in the Panthers' best interests to sell the world on Cam Newton, trade back and amass talent at other positions; even if that meant giving Jimmy Clausen one last shot.
To support this notion Fortenbaugh refers to the 1997 St. Louis Rams decision to select OT Orlando Pace with the #1 overall pick, however, I feel this is a failed analogy by Fortenbaugh. In 1997 forget there being no clear #1 overall QB, there was no clear first round QB. It was easily one of the (if not the worst) QB classes ever in the NFL. Ultimately there were only two quarterbacks taken in the first three rounds of the draft, Jim Drukenmiller in the 1st and Jake Plummer in the second.
Furthermore, I could counter this idea of trading back with the Atlanta Falcons from 1997 who moved out of the #3 spot by getting a 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th round pick from Seattle. The end result: Seattle got a Pro Bowl DB in Shawn Springs, the Falcons got four players who did nothing in the league; this was a case where less was more.
More after the jump...
Even though we can apply a 'less is more' theory to getting top level talent, there is a lot to be said for taking what a draft is giving you. The 2011 draft is giving us a few different things:
- An embarrasment of riches on the DL
- A host of promising, but flawed QBs
- A very solid crop of WRs
Those are the three areas the draft is strong in, and the entire class as a whole can be characterized as 'thin with top end talent, but deep with quality starters'. So, for a Carolina team needing to improve several different areas it would behoove them to get as many picks as possible and try and fill those gaps this year, then look for a home run in a future draft.
"if the Panthers' goal is, in fact, to trade out of the top spot and acquire more selections, Newton would be the perfect poker hand to bluff with."
If you notice commentary around the league right now there seems to be a distinct sense of skepticism when it comes to how the Panthers are handling the draft thus far. Can anyone else think of the last time a team was less than two weeks away from their selection and didn't tip their hand at all? Sure, the convenient excuse is 'why do you have to without a CBA' but in reality, it allows you to prep a fanbase and send a message to the veterans you can't talk to.
"The Panthers hold the first pick in a draft that is now less than two weeks away. Nobody can trade up to get ahead of them and steal the player they covet the most, so what's the point of keeping their plans a secret?"
This right here is the $64,000 question, and the one that has no good answer other than "they're waiting to see if a better offer comes along" and really, a better offer could come along. There are growing reports that the Cincinnati Bengals are looking to secure more last second interviews and workouts with Cam Newton. Previously, the prevailing wisdom was that the Bengals would hold out hope they could convince Carson Palmer to return and get A.J. Green to held solidify their passing game immediately.
If there's one thing we've learned it's that Cincinnati are an organization who aren't scared away from troubled players, for better, or for worse. The former has led them to the cheap pickup of valuable players like Cedric Benson and Terrell Owens, while the latter has led to players like Chris Henry (RIP), Adam Jones and Andre Smith who haven't/couldn't find their way in the NFL. Perhaps though the Bengals are okay with the time it will take to bring along Newton, maybe they're willing to write off the off field issues as they have done for other players before and think he's worth investing a large part of their draft to get.
Ulitmately, it's an unenviable decision for the Carolina Panthers front office and I don't think the deliniation between failure and possible contender is as close as Fortenbaugh leads us to believe in his piece. What I do know though is that Carolina will have to decide if they are willing to gamble like the '97 Rams who needed Kurt Warner to fall into their laps, or the '08 Dolphins who waited too long to pull the plug on a failed 2nd rounder and ended up missing out on a franchise QB, and the alternative, which is reaching for a QB at #1 overall and possibly return to this same place in 3-4 years. Like Fortenbaugh says in his piece:
"If Newton doesn't turn out to be the savior that many are projecting he will be, the Panthers front office will likely find themselves in this exact same position three or four years from now.
Although at that time, it will probably be with a different head coach and general manager."
Thirteen days... they can't pass soon enough.
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If we can trade back
Then we absolutely need to do it. The depth of good talent this draft offers is just too good to pass up if we get a respectable offer from anyone. I’m not sure what exactly we’re looking for, but even a first and a second from Cincinnati would put us in a much better position, IMO.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
Was tempted to fanshot this when I read it, but was afraid a simple fanshot would just be redundant in light of recent posts...
I still believe that a lot of what happens will hinge on what Buffalo tips to the rest of the league as well; one would assume that Denver (with Orton and Tebow) is not looking for a QB early this year, and Buffalo has been on the cam wagon for awhile (even before it showed up in Charlotte), so I guess it becomes a question of asking price above all. I mean, if Buffalo is indeed looking QB all the way, but doesn’t mind taking another QB prospect (assuming Cincy is solely focused on Newton), then in Cincy’s mind that makes a helluva lot more sense than trying to trade up to #1. Flip side though, Buffalo could be very intent on taking Newton (again, assuming Cincy is solely focused on Newton), leaving us as the only viable option (in Cincy’s eyes) for them to acquire him…
I’d personally LOVE to trade down with Cincy; we don’t lose many spots, and stand to gain a good deal of early in the round picks from it (while still being privy to the multitude of potential top 5 prospects in this draft)…
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
trading down
I think we absolutely need a QB no matter what. I think if we trade back to 3 or 4, we could still get Cam or Gabbert. I would rather have Cam, but I think Gabbert will be better than some other recent 1st rounders, and the addition of a couple more picks would definitely help. However, as we talk about the quality of guys in the draft, how many of them are truly better than who we already have? Not many. I could see picking 3rd and getting Gabbert and a DT in the 2nd, or picking 4th, after Cam and Gabbert are gone, picking Peterson and Locker in the 2nd.
by usana_gaines on Apr 16, 2011 4:08 AM EDT up reply actions
panthers reason for being quiet...
The panthers are being quiet for a good reason. Everybody agrees there is no clear number one pick. Another way of saying that, is there are many who could be picked number one. If the panthers state that they Like one particular player then they will limit who the number of teams willing to trade with them. This, in my opinion, proves that all the talk about who the panthers will pick with the number one pick is a mute point because we probably wont pick first.
However, I think we take cam or else trade with another teams 2012 first round with hopes of getting Luck next year. Just trade with a team we know will be bad next year. Lol
You know...
If the panthers state that they Like one particular player then they will limit who the number of teams willing to trade with them.
That makes an awful lot of sense, actually. If the Panthers say “yes, we want Newton”, they limit their possibilities and trade partners. I think it’s pretty darned smart of them, myself, and I’m finding myself rather surprised that Fortenbaugh doesn’t seem to take that into account as a possibility.
But by hedging your bets like that everyone will assume different things
Zobel’s report said the Cards and Bengals went straight to Denver for a trade rather than Carolina and when I asked him to confirm this he said “The entire league thinks the Panthers are taking Newton”.
In this instance being quiet hindered, rather than help the process.
If the list really is 5-8 guys then why not say: “It’ll be Newton, Gabbert, Dareus, Peterson or Green” that way you really put an idea out there that 5 teams could lose ‘their guy’.
Being too quiet hurts as much as being too loud.
I think the reason
that we didn’t hear all the names called is simple… Newton is the only one that can draw the amount of assets that it’s going to take to get the #1 pick. It almost has to be a QB to give up, at least, this years 1st, 2nd, and 3rd picks. Not just a QB, but a QB with ridiculous upside/potential. I don’t think Gabbert qualifies because he’s viewed as a more solid pick, with a higher floor and lower ceiling. Newton has a deep basement but a ceiling in the stratosphere… that ceiling is what will command all those picks, and I doubt that only a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd will get it done. No disrespect to the other three guys named (because I think all three will be Pro-Bowlers at some point), but no one is going to give up half a draft for them. He who holds the Pick hold the power… Gotta love supply and demand!
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." Hanlon's Razor
With the cases of trading down with Cinci or Arizona
We could very well see the lowest offered amount for the #1 pick in ages. Honestly, dropping down to Cincinnatti means Gabbert and Newton are probably both gone, along with Von Miller, Fairley, or Dareus (whoever Denver chooses).
I would take the #4 overall and the #4 in the 2nd round for the #1 pick this year, hands down and no questions asked.
realistically I don't think we'd be looking at much more than that.
we maybe able to squeak an extra 5th or something out of it, but without a clear cut #1, not being able to trade players, and teams probably reluctant to try and deal with future picks, I don’t think we’d see much more than that in a trade. But as you said, I’d be completely fine with the #4 and the #36 for the #1.
Rules and Regulations of the Game: 89, Bottom Line
by John Chilton on Apr 15, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
This would be my ideal scenerio
Please, please, please let some team be stupid enough to fall in love with Cam’s potential and trade the farm to get him. With all of the young talent we already have on the team, this could set us up for years, like the Herschel Walker trade did for the Cowboys.
by Daddy Jacks on Apr 15, 2011 6:06 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I think they learned their lesson on that one lol...
unfortunately; that would be an amazing haul
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
We wouldn't get the sheer volume of picks
But if there is a team that is in love with Cam we could swap 1sts this year and get their 1st next year.
Let’s just say they started him immediately and he has a rocky 1st season. We could “Luck out” with the 1st overall pick. That combined with our normal 1st rounnd pick would set us up with an immensly talented, very young core that could easily become a dynasty.
I know, I know. But I can dream.
by Daddy Jacks on Apr 15, 2011 6:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
MikeTrain, don't freak out on me or anything, but we need to just bite the bullet and draft him...
Just take the risk, take the risky/non-conservative choice. This would be contrary to everything we’ve ever done. The upside is huge. The risk, when you stop and really think about it isn’t: what do you REALLY have to lose when you are 2-14? Nothing. Put it all on the line and draft Cam. Try to get a franchise QB, something we’ve never had in the history of our franchise. If he doesn’t work out, then in 2 years, you draft another QB, not much is lost. We’re not going ANYWHERE in this league until we get a franchise QB. No more whining, just bite the bullet, assume the risk, and take Cam number 1.
by jkp1516 on Apr 15, 2011 6:26 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
what do you REALLY have to lose when you are 2-14?
Not being 2-14 again?
by SlayerGhaleon on Apr 15, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
The goal in football is to win. Not moving forward is pretty much a step down.
by SlayerGhaleon on Apr 15, 2011 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I hate this argument
what do you REALLY have to lose when you are 2-14?
What you have to lose is becoming the Lions, or the Raiders, or the Redskins. Years of continued mediocrity punctuated by horrible years that give you a shot of turning things around but you just screw up that one too.
That’s what you have to lose.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Apr 15, 2011 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
How can you lose that if that's what you already are?
Hate to break it to you, but right now, this year we are the Lions/Raiders/Redskins. Nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Apparently you didn’t read the second half of his paragraph, where he said continued mediocrity, not just one year.
by SlayerGhaleon on Apr 15, 2011 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Well at some point you have to take a risk of a high risk, high reward prospect
What if we take him and he lives up to his potienal? Theres two sides to this coin here
SOOOOO Me, Cam, Ron, Jerry and Hurney are going to drink some Cammy Cam Juice.. who's coming?
That’s what scouting is for.
Our whole point here is not that we shouldn’t take Cam at all, but that we shouldn’t take him just because he’s there.
by SlayerGhaleon on Apr 16, 2011 8:09 AM EDT up reply actions
I mean but Cam has enough ceiling
to be one of the dynamic playmakers at QB we have ever seen. I mean he can top 5 talent the intangibles are there exp(Leadership). I mean why not we need something new here in Carolina that will put fans in the stadium seats and give us more attention from the media and thats Cam Newton. At some point we have to take a risk on a guy that could make us superbowl contenders for years. Like they say if you settle for average then your just going to be average.
SOOOOO Me, Cam, Ron, Jerry and Hurney are going to drink some Cammy Cam Juice.. who's coming?
Cam also has the large chance to bust spectacularly. Hence the need for scouting.
Also, winning puts fans in the seats and gets media attention, not some QB. If Cam busts, nobody gives a shit about us again.
by SlayerGhaleon on Apr 16, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not directing this at you, DT... I know you're not the only one who feels this way.
I believe what puts butts in seats is winning. And if you really care about media attention, there’s two ways to get it. The good way is, again, winning. The bad way is to bring in players that are controversial, divisive, outspoken, criminals, etc. I’m not insinuating that any of the players we’re supposedly considering are in that vein, I’m just noting that media attention isn’t always a good thing.
We all have our “preferred” scenarios, and I harbor no disrespect for any person willing to make theirs known in a rational manner (as DT3428 and many have regarding the high ceiling of Newton being worth the risk).
My opinion is that a double-trade back is the best move (if possible). When I weigh our options for the draft, the scales tip that way because:
1) We need high quality prospects now at several positions; including QB, DT, CB, OG, and overall O-line depth - in that order.
2) I dont’ see Cam’s “ceiling” as high as many others do, or even the highest among QBs in the draft. I don’t see him as a likely bust either, just not the franchise savior.
3) Not having the 33rd pick weighs heavily, as there a many very good prospects between 1 and 65.
My scales are calibrated based on my opinion – as formed by extensive reading and being a long-time fan and student of the NFL. I’m aware, however, that it’s still based on opinion.
I often wish I could sell my brain to someone else. They'd be smarter, but I wouldn't give a crap, plus I could buy a new car.
by Rick Bates on Apr 16, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rick is spot on
We had plenty of coverage when we were winning. Everyone remembers the SI cover that had us going to the Super Bowl. If we had delivered that year instead of floundering gloriously, the Panthers would have been talked about just as much as the Patriots.
And there is fervent support for this team in the Charlotte area and surrounding. I know that because I live here. I know that because I watched as our season spiraled downward and we wondered if there would be blackouts, but we still sold out every game. At the same time, Tampa Bay has a really great season and they still didn’t sell out a single game. Why? Because Tampa Bay had only 3 winning seasons under Gruden (2002, 2005, and 2007).
We may not have been the most consistent, but we have never reached a point where I thought going into a season we had no chance. 2010’s was the closest that’s ever come in recent memory (where we were all concerned). In fact, I can remember going into 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, and even 09 thinking, “We’re a Super Bowl caliber team” because let’s face it, if it weren’t for injuries in 04 and 07, we very well could have been.
Shit...if it weren't for Mike vick doing a superman impression we would've made the 04 playoffs lol...
most surreal season of football I had ever watched; I actually had a lot of hope for this year’s team, but much of that was dependent on MM continuing his progress from the end of 09…
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
More like we would've made the 04 playoffs if...
We hadn’t lost to an Aaron Brooks led New Orleans Saints team in the last game of the season.
Well, yea lol
but we could’ve had it wrapped up in the ATL game (possibly Peppers best individual performance as a panther)
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
Rick is spot on
We had plenty of coverage when we were winning.
Actually that’s not true. I remember the 2003 season and the ensuing postseason. The Panthers received little to no coverage until they reached the conference champion, and then SI put us on the cover because we were “sleepers” and no one was talking about us. Until then though, everyone thought the Panthers were a joke, and resultingly the Panthers didn’t get any coverage. And Panther fans were pissed about it. I remember it like it was yesterday. For some reason, maybe because we aren’t a big market like New York or Dallas, the media doesn’t want us in the spotlight. Almost every season, we’ve had to take on the ‘nobody believes in us’ and it has psyched our team up for a few seasons.
Really?
Let’s look at that season.
The Panthers were 7-9 the year before. They were the 6th seed of the play offs. They literally came out of no where to win the playoffs that year. No one expected it and it is what jettisoned us into the spotlight of the NFL for the next 6 years.
Thank you
As Panther fans, we all want what is best for this team. Taking a bad gamble with the first overall pick can be franchise suicide…I hope for the sake of our team going forward, that we are able to trade back and collect some extra picks. That would be the best case scenario for this team as we stand today. We do have some really nice pieces, but we also have lots and lots of needs…Cam Newton is like crack. The high seems great, but over time it will leave you toothless and homeless. Let’s just hope a different team wants to hit that pipe. Just say no to crack. Just say no to Newton…Please trade back!!!
I’m a huge Cam Newton fan, but this is the best anti-Newton post I’ve seen. Point made! I disagree, but kudos on a great analogy.
by StockP317 on Apr 16, 2011 9:40 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
We've taken the ultra-conservative route for 15 years, and look where it's gotten us...
We don’t have a SB trophy and we’ve NEVER, I repeat NEVER had a franchise QB. We can trade back and take the conservative paths all day long, but our history and past philosophy has demonstrated that the conservative route only gets you so far. You’ve got to take a risk. Every great team has. Pittsburgh took one on Roethlisberger, GB with Rodgers, ATL with Ryan, TB with Freeman…they were all risks, big risks. But those teams are on top now, and our years of drafting Chris Gambles, Jeff Otahs, and Jordan Grosses have led us to large seasonal inconsistency and ultimately to 2-14. We must take a risk. Now is the time, when we are at the bottom, the very lowest of the low. If take this risk and win, we’ll be a consistent contender for the playoffs, a SB isn’t out of fathom, and Pro Bowl QB is possible. If we take this risk and lose, we don’t lose much, a season or two, then we can take another QB. No more conservative ‘Fox Ball.’ I say take a ride on the wildside, let’s see where it gets us….
No...to every single thing that you just said...
Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Ryan, and Freeman were not taken with the first overall pick…Actually, 3 of the 4 guys were taken outside of the top ten…Conservative is what the NFL is all about, at least the teams that are consistently winning…
We also haven't been conservative for 15 years
I’m pretty sure we were much less conservative before Fox came along, but most people block those years out from their memories.
+1
us and Jacksonville were unique expansions, in that we both utilized FA like it was going out of style, which enabled us to make it to the NFC champ game in only our second year…unfortunately, we weren’t very good drafters during the 90’s lol
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
To Kittylover...
Doesn’t matter where the guys were taken in the first round. All of those QBs were huge risks. And while those teams were out taking risks, we’ve been taking the conservative pick.
We could have picked Aaron Rodgers, but instead we went with the conservative choice of a LB in Thomas Davis. Can you believe that? We could have had a Pro Bowl, SB winning QB, but we chose to go with a LB! That’s absolute stupidity! Why didn’t we take him? Because he was a risk. How can you rationalize that? How can you rationalize us not having a franchise QB EVER in the history of our franchise? How can you rationalize taking a LB instead of a SB winning QB?
Also I love this quote...
Conservative is what the NFL is all about
Really? That explains how team like Atlanta, GB, Pittsburgh, and Tampa have QBs and how 3 of those are playoff team, and 2 have won SBs. Because they were conservative. It was really conservative, when GB, who already had a Hall of Fame QB in Brett Favre, took Aaron Rodgers when they could’ve conservatively added a solid guy for Brett like Logan Mankins or Roddy White. That was REALLY conservative of them. (That last sentence was sarcastic by the way.)
Actually, it was conservative. They were planning ahead. They knew they’d have to replace Favre eventually, so they took Rodgers and let him sit for a couple years. That’s how smart teams get QBs.
by SlayerGhaleon on Apr 17, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Because we've had a coach that doesn't believe in drafting QBs
Fox has on record stated that he doesn’t like drafting QBs. He believes they take too long to develop. And instead of drafting one, he is content to pick up a game manager in free agency (see: Jake Delhomme, David Carr, Matt Moore, etc). During the years Fox was here, I can remember drafting one QB the entire time: Stefan Lafors.
Fox was ultraconservative. Instead of drafting a QB in 2006/2007, we signed David Carr. That was his answer instead of drafting Aaron Rodgers.
Exactly my point!
We’ve been ultraconservative in drafting for the past decade. We never took a chance on a risk. Never took a risk on a QB in the first round. Why? Because QBs in the draft are huge risks, especially those in the first round. Fox didn’t want to assume that risk. He’d rather be conservative and draft other positions such as LB. Fox was ultraconservative and didn’t want to take a risk and draft Aaron Rodgers, even though it would’ve been the perfect time to groom a replacement for Jake.
Enough of this conservative drafting! Let’s take a risk on a QB, see where it gets us! Let’s do something we’ve never done, rather than just continuing the same broken philosophy we have for the past decade! Hey, that’s just me. I don’t want to be 2-14 again. I don’t want to continue this mediocrity and inconsistency. I want to take a chance. Hey, as they say, ‘no risk, no reward’…..
-1
You should be ashamed of yourself for comparing anyone to a harmful drug.
How is that franchise suicide? You make it sound like drafting Cam will bankrupt the franchise, which it most certainly will not. If he does well, then great. If he busts then you move on.
Personally, I think if you are not willing to take a chance, then you have no business in football.
I love this team more than anything, but I am personally tired of the Panthers waffling around with cut rate bargain bin quarterbacks.
Matt Moore was only good in garbage time.Tony Pike couldn’t even make it onto the field.
Brian St. Pierre… Who is Brian St.Pierre?!
Jimmy Clausen who every team with a first round draft pick passed on even though he was the supposed golden boy.
Vinnie Testeverde, David Carr, the list of mediocrity goes on and on.
Jake Delhomme was the only good quarterback the Panthers actually hit on and even he turned out to be a disaster.
You can do much worse than Cam Newton, and by the looks of things, the Panthers already have.
Draft a good quarterback,or even find a GOOD one in free agency, then put talent around him. It’s only what the best franchises do.
by HobartStarr on Apr 15, 2011 7:37 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Every single QB you mentioned is more pro-ready than Newt...
I am all for taking chances in football, but reaching for a guy at the most important position in football is potentially a terrible mistake. Especially with the number one pick. My crack reference was meant as a comical way of saying that I hope another team wants to trade up and draft the guy while we can gain more picks. The worst teams in football reach for QB’s at the top of the draft almost annually…We have avoided this for the duration of our franchise. Here is to hoping we don’t start now…
Who cares about Pro Readiness
It has already been proven that being “pro ready” is overrated. I will bet a 100 bucks that Cam Newton is a better QB now than all those QB’s listed above. The fact is if we don’t take a QB this year then we probably won’t have another chance to get one for a while. Please don’t screen FA because rarely does a “good” QB come out in FA
SOOOOO Me, Cam, Ron, Jerry and Hurney are going to drink some Cammy Cam Juice.. who's coming?
I just dont get it ... and yes I am calling for a new QB!
First off I have been pretty silent on here reading about the pre-draft hype. So, let me state that I think we need a new QB for the future of the franchise. Not a stop gap solution, but draft Newton or Gabbert.
We were 2-14 with a QB that threw 3 TD’s in his first season. Although, touted as the most pro ready QB coming from a pro style offense. Well what the hell happened to that? To me Clausen is not the long term answer at QB, plain and simple you will not convince me otherwise. I don’t buy the whine and cheese excuse that he did not get a fair shake. Well, boys and girls life is not always fair and you make the best of what you got. Clausen showed me that he can’t carry a team on his back much less make the best of a bad situation. Sure you can make the argument he was dealt a bad hand last year. That is a very valid argument but he still has to perform. Frankly he did not, when you say Clausen I think Ryan Leaf.
Two prominent core players have come out and said we need a new QB… what more do you need? Yet several still cling to the notion of going into the upcoming season with the same QB that led us to 3 glorious throwing TD’s. Others profess that a Stop gap solution that is a backup for another team or an elder statesman that is nearing the end of his career is the next franchise QB. I just don’t get it. We need talent at the QB position and we need talent that can show up on game day! We also need a QB that can lead a team … even when Jake was at his worst the team still supported him. Claussen has had less than a full season and some starters are already calling for another QB… sounds like a wonderful leader to me :) The best chance we have at turning around the loosing ways is get an impact player and who has more impact on a game than a QB? Any QB we pick in this years draft can have the worst statistical year of their career and still be better than what we have on the roster.
ABC baby ... any body but Clausen
Wrong....
do we need an answer at QB? yea. should we blindly draft one just because they’re there? no; drafting players of need simply because one can is how perpetual mediocrity is achieved….
If we pick a QB, it better be damn well because they have fully weighed the risk vs. the reward, not simply because “we can”….
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
Take a peek at Hurney's list of picks in the first round...
Julius Peppers, Jordan Gross, Chris Gamble, Thomas Davis, DeAngelo Williams, Jon Beason, Jonathan Stewart, and Jeff Otah. To me that’s a pretty impressive list for an over all first pick in multiple drafts. Given his track record, I really don’t think if Hurney drafts either one of theses kids at QB that it will be considered blindly reaching for a QB. The man does his homework and probably knows more than he ever cared to know about either players. So if he hands in a card with Newton or Gabbert’s name on it… I am fine with it, his history shows me that he does a pretty good job with the first round picks. If it’s someone besides a QB so be it, I give Hurney enough credit to realize his picks in the first round are usually much better than what mine would have been.
ABC baby ... any body but Clausen
by Jp_here on Apr 16, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well the whole concept of the draft is a
blind reaching game. At some point you have to take a risk. Heck, Andrew Luck could be a bust in the NFL, we never know as fans how these players will react when they step out there on the field for the first time. Any prospect we pick is a guessing game and that includes Peterson and Green. They could very well end up being bust just like Cam and Blaine may be busts. We never know. But its always fun to assume though.
SOOOOO Me, Cam, Ron, Jerry and Hurney are going to drink some Cammy Cam Juice.. who's coming?
Not a single high risk position there
WR? Nope. QB? Nope. DT? Nope. TE? Nope.
While Hurney has drafted well in the 1st rd it has been at positions that translate well from college.
Think about this scenario. Had we not traded away our 1st rd pick last year who here doesn’t think Hurney would have drafted Clausen at 17. Just let that thought sink in and under that scenario we’d be looking at another QB at #1. If that doesn’t remind you of the Lions or the Raiders , what does? That though alone should give you pause on any QB that we might take early.
And in this draft that safe position is CB at #1.
by Robert Woodring on Apr 16, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Position of risk?
First off, that is one scary thought. Only thing I find confusing about it is the Panthers never brought Claussen in for a private workout. Since we have had three QB’s in for private workouts and interviews with Newton, Gabbert and Mallett then Hurney should have a better grasp of the talent and personality of the three. Last year Hurney based the Claussen pick on the scouting department and tape. My only problem with taking CB at #1 is you can avoid the player if you just throw away from him. Even the best corner in the history of the NFL can only cover one receiver or one area in any given play. John Clayton wrote an interesting article on ESPN the other day about how picking safe really is not safe at all… it was an interesting read. Basically I trust Hurney regardless of the position… he is not infallible but I think he will make the right choice whether it’s who I think we should pick or not.
ABC baby ... any body but Clausen
Either way...
It doesn’t matter who we draft. I don’t want a rookie QB starting for this team next year. And if the team isn’t sold on Clausen starting next year then we really need to figure out what we’re going to do. The only option we have I think to get a legitimate starter is Kolb. I think finding out how to get him on our team supersedes anything else we do in this draft.
There simply isn’t an answer at QB in the draft
There's another unfortunate argument here
Look at his track record of taking QBs.
In fact, his inability to draft a QB (along with Fox’s) could easily be considered the prime factor we were as bad last year as we were.
Absolutely trade down if the price is right
The best case scenario is the Panthers trade down, get one of their top prospects (probably a DL or maybe even Peterson), and still get enough out of the deal to land Mallet as well.
Mallet is my top rated QB of the last two drafts. Every time i’ve seen him play in college he has impressed me with both his arm strength and accuracy as a passer. He’s big and has already run a pro-style offense. Reminds me of Big Ben or Flacco or Brady.
Cam Newton has an undeniable upside, but just not sure enough of a thing to take if you’re the Panthers — especially if they could swap the #1 pick for the #5 and multiple others.
I thought I had dreamed it.
With the draft speedly coming upon us no one is saying anything about the Panthers signing Shocky and trading for Ford. Are these moves a non issue related to the draft? I had to go back and read earlier postings to see if it really happened with Ford. Are these moves just a waste of time.
The post about the Panthers trading for Ford was one of our April Fools jokes here at CSR. No players can be traded for until a CBA is in place.
As for Shockey, it’s not a ‘non-move’ it’s just been talked about a lot. Not much more to say about Jeremy Shockey really, everyone know who is is, and where he’s at in his career. I didn’t really think there was much more to add.
by James Dator on Apr 15, 2011 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
All i know is this..
we have GOT to address the QB situation. If you really think about it, we dont have a glaring need at any other position as much as we do QB. We have a pair of solid RBs in Jon Stewart and D Williams, we now have Shockey TE and Smith WR, we have Kalil on the OL and Beason as our defensive guy.
So what is our most obvious glaring need above anything else, QUARTERBACK! By far, hands down. If you look at teams like the Falcons and the Bucs, they dont have excellent defenses but the reason they are contenders is because they are very strong at QB.
Newton is my first choice, but i would absolutly drool at the idea of trading down and getting Green then getting Mallet. A Mallett/Green offense along with Shockey and Smith and if Otah is healthy would put us in playoff contention IMMEDIATLEY!
Mallett to me is worth the number one overall pick. His stats are on par with Andrew Luck and I think his character issues are behind him, guy reminds me of Ben Roethlisberger. If we dont take Cam I would be disappointed, but if we take Mallett i would be very happy to say the least!
But I thought you said Andrew Luck wasn't all that great?
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
stat wise Luck is good i just think hes overrated. I know this might sound crazy but i dont like his decision to stay in school. Im sorry, but when you are all but guaranteed to be the 1st overall pick in the draft, you dont turn that down for a engineering degree in a profession where you will make MAYBE 100 grand a year.
It tells me that Luck isnt 100% fully focused in football and frankly doesnt have the passion.
I want a QB that lives, breathes, sleep and loves football. And im sorry when you turn down the number 1 draft pick in the NFL for a engineering degree that tells me you are more passionate in being a engineer then a full time franchise QB.
by PantherTrain on Apr 16, 2011 12:45 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Peyton stayed his senior year when he was all but assured the #1 spot in the 1997 draft...
and I’d hardly doubt his passion for the game lol
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
by Tomthehomer on Apr 16, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Plus, it's actually smart to get your degree.
Luck could suffer a career-ending injury during the first game of the season. It’s always nice to have something to fall back on in case that were to happen.
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
It's why I hate how basketball is set up now...
I mean, how many guys washout of the NBA within 3 years? So many players could benefit from staying in till at least their junior year, especially considering how few players an NBA roster actually carries….
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
Honestly, I think Luck staying in school was the smartest thing he could do (for him)
1) He’s going to graduate and finish his degree. Can’t put a price on that.
2) He can enjoy college life, a special time. It only comes once in your life, and it’s priceless. A time you can’t trade for anything.
3) He does not have to be all about football 24/7, 365 days a year like he would if he played in the NFL
4) He doesn’t have to worry about the lockout, and the possibility to be drafted and be jobless and out of school for an entire year.
5) He can play college football for another year. Also priceless
6) He can graduate and finish with his friends and girlfriend, and not have to go back to college and finish in between seasons, and not know anyone there.
7) He can wait for the money. It’ll be there, I guarantee you it’ll be there.
And that’s why he’s at Stanford. A freaking brilliant kid that just made a smart, smart decision. I know you don’t like it, but dang it was smart!
All 7 points are predicated on him not screwing up like Jake Locker did...
If that happens, then everything is null and void.
by James Dator on Apr 17, 2011 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Knowing our luck (no pun intended)...
He will decide to pursue his Masters Degree and forgo the 2012 draft too.
One cries because one is sad. For example: I cry because others are stupid, and it makes me sad.
+1
The QB’s on staff had ZERO chance to succeed last year with Fox/Davidson. BSP was Foxy giving the middle finger to the team. Get Stanzi and beef up the lines. If they take Newton and he busts, it’ll set the team back 5 years.
What team was set back 5 years for ONE QB busting?
The raiders weren’t even set back last year and they drafted Jamarcus Russel.
(8-8 still better than the panthers.)
The notion that a team can be set back 5 years for a QB busting is just ridiculous.
Marty wants to make a deal to redeem himself
I’ll say this, when the AE trade went down last year I was stoked. Now that the pick is so high, not so much but I still believe AE can make a difference at wildcat QB/slot WR.
Hurney is a good GM IMO. But his Bobby Beathard/Whimpy “I’ll gladly pay you Tuesday for a player today” stradegy of trading picks sometimes backfires as it did in this case. Sometimes it works out (see Otah). But I really think the team, Hurney in particular, is looking to recoup the lost pick. Cam or Gabbert are the only two players worth trading up for in this weak class. If anything, I’m surprised the Gabbert noise is so faint. If I were the Panthers, I’d make it look like I was having a hard time deciding between the two because you open up so many more avenues of trade possibilities.
I’ve stated before that I’m not a Cam supporter. Football wise, I don’t think he has the mental acumen to make adjustments at the line, read complicated defenses and make lightning fast decisions. Personal wise, I don’t like the checkered past. Too many players with off the field issues seem to continue in that path (Vick, Talib, Pacman, etc…). IF the Panthers select him, I will hope and pray that I am wrong and will root for this kid with all my heart and soul because he’ll be wearing a Panthers jersey.
Crystal Ball – After hearing offers from Buffalo, Cinn, Zona and even Wash, the Panthers strike a deal with Buffalo for this years 2nd and 5th rounder and next year’s 2nd rounder. The Bills select Cam Newton (the Bills need Cam more than any other franchise). After Denver trades with Zona and Zona selects Gabbert, the Panthers receive a call from Cinn. They want Green. We swap picks and pick up Cinn’s 3rd rounder. At #4, the Panthers select Patrick Peterson from LSU.
I like it!
I am a Cam Newton guy, but if we can trade back I hope we can still get Ryan Mallett. This guy has a arm as well, so I would be happy. I don’t know what we could get for a #1 overall, as far as me I would like to try and land Marvin Austin with one of those extra picks. Then I would be crazy happy to get Mallett and Austin would be a paradise draft for me! even if I miss out on my buddie Cam.
The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge,
but rather in a lack of will.
- Vince Lombardi
by Tommy_The_Pantherian on Apr 16, 2011 9:29 AM EDT reply actions
You know, I really hope people realize...
Andrew Luck is a sophomore this year. If he chose to stay in college this year to get his degree when he definitely would have gone #1, he’s very likely going to make the same decision next year.
I highly doubt Luck enters the 2012 draft.
I'll be surprised if he performs to expectations and still stays in school next year...
but if he regresses (or more likely, the team around him regresses), I wouldn’t be surprised to see him senior year wearing stanford red…this scenario being entirely dependent on how well they do next season.
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
What's the incentive?
He passed up the opportunity to be the #1 selection this year. What more could football offer him next year that it doesn’t offer this year?
Maybe he doesn't feel like he's quiiiiiite there yet (Peyton didn't after junior year, when he would've been a #1 as well)...
but puts one more college season under his belt to refine his game, then comes out next year; plus, isn’t he set to graduate after this year? I thought he was on a three year track as of now…
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
That's possible
But I think I was incorrect in thinking he was still a Sophomore (as I mentioned in another response).
It’s impossible to finish an Architectural Design degree in 3 years. Especially when you’re also tackling an Engineering program as well. I honestly don’t know how he’s pulling that off. If I had to do drafting on top of all my Engineering courses I think my head would explode.
haha I don't see how he's doing it either...
then again, maybe he’s MENSA material? I dunno, this is only what I’ve heard up to now.
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
I really hope you realize this:
“I am committed to earning my degree in architectural design from Stanford University and am on track to accomplish this at the completion of the spring quarter of 2012,” Luck said in a statement.
The school announced Luck wouldn’t be made available for comment.
His father, former NFL quarterback Oliver Luck, said: "This is a win-win for him. He gets to spend another year at Stanford, be part of a team that will be highly ranked again next year, finish his degree and enjoy Palo Alto.
“It’s not like the NFL is going anywhere, it’s one of the best run leagues in the world. It will still be there when he graduates.”
He should hope his dad's right
“be part of a team that will be highly ranked again next year”
There is absolutely no evidence they’ll be able to achieve that with their head coach gone and the amount of seniors who aren’t there anymore.
by James Dator on Apr 17, 2011 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Ya know BigD
You’d make yourself out to be less of a jerk if you gave a guy to respond to the first person who corrected me.
Just sayin = )
He's not the one that looks like a jerk
Just sayin
Official ABC Fan Club President
Anybody But Clausen
Wrong
He was a redshirt sophomore last season. He has been at Stanford for 3 years.
Um.. yeah
I guess I can’t add anymore?
Actually, I did figure out where it came from. Wikipedia (where I went to figure this out last time) still has him listed as a Sophomore, even though that’s clearly not the case now.
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