Who's in the (dog)house!?
by James Dator on Nov 16, 2011 8:01 AM EST
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PrintWe should know later today if the Carolina Panthers have decided to place Mike Goodson on IR, ending his season and effectively shutting him down following a typically minor hamstring injury. For Panthers fans the lack of seeing Goodson playing has been a rather frustrating one, especially based on his impressive performances last season in small amounts of time.
This season we've learned that the fastest way to get on the wrong side of this coaching staff is to make dumb mental mistakes, or turn the ball over- the latter of which Goodson has struggled with throughout his career. It's easy to forget about how much he puts the ball on the ground, but we're talking over 10 times more often than DeAngelo Williams does, this has made Goodson untrustworthy in the eyes of the coaches, but it's likely there's something more to it. It wasn't long ago Goodson's fumblitis was the source of good hearted ridicule in Panthers camp, but it seems to have morphed into something more.
I, for one thought that Goodson would have a far bigger role in the offense than he has, in a lot of ways I thought he could become our Darren Sproles, but to no avail. As it stands Goodson appears to be on his way out of 2011, and could be on his way out of the Panthers too.
What do you think Panthers fans? If the team puts Goodson on IR today is it a necessary evil, or a wasted opportunity?
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I was never all that high on Goodson. He fumbles way too much, and I always thought Sutton could contribute more and was the better runner. Either way, neither were in positions to contribute this year other than Goodson as a KR. I just wish we had traded him when his value was at peak last season/offseason, when it was rumored that people were asking about whether Goodson or Sutton was available, and Hurney told them NO?!?!? Gotta be kidding me…
"The way y'all are lollygaggin around here with them picks and them shovels, you'd think it was 120 degrees...can't be more than 114."
by SouthernPanther on Nov 16, 2011 8:06 AM EST reply actions
I think they should have brought back Sutton
I understand that they didn’t want 4 RBs, and that they thought Sutton would be picked up as a FA, but he wasn’t. THey should have brought him back instead of promoting Vaughan. There were 2 players that did pretty darn well in the preseason and they cut them both.. Sutton and Clowney. Clowney was already better than Naanee when they first brought him in. Oh well, it’s old news.
by IsaidgoodDAY! on Nov 16, 2011 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
Meh.
He is what he is…a mediocre RB with a propensity to fumble the ball. Count me in the apathetic category.
He has great receiving skills and is good in space, but you just can’t count on him not to cough i up in big moments in the game. Turnovers kill.
Iranian Air Defense Site: 'Unknown aircraft you are in Iranian airspace. Identify yourself.'
Aircraft: 'This is a United States aircraft. I am in Iraqi airspace.'
Air Defense Site: 'You are in Iranian airspace. If you do not depart our airspace we will launch interceptor aircraft!'
Aircraft: 'This is a United States Marine Corps FA-18 fighter. Send 'em up, I'll wait!'
Air Defense Site: (... total silence)
by Tarheel Soldier on Nov 16, 2011 8:37 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
My thoughts exactly…Goody had his chances and when we signed Dwill Goody was all but done as a Panther. Honestly with how we run the ball id be more then content just going into the season with Dwill and Jstew..if somebody just so happens to go down then look to the waiver. Plenty of backs always floating around. It is a much easier position to get production then any other
Proud member of the Panthers Mafia!
Saving The Environment One Green Comment at a Time
'We're the little brothers getting punched in the head. Pretty soon, we're gong to learn to punch back.'" - Ron Rivera aka BAMF
Agree
Plenty of backs always floating around. It is a much easier position to get production then any other
A good O-Line that opens holes can make anyone, even me, look like a good RB.
goody showed flashes of his potential last year
I think its harsh but probably true to call him mediocre. Having said that, he was one of the very few bright sparks last year for us. Yes he fumbled, but he did his best to step up whilst others got crocked by injury. I like goody as our third choice back because he has proven he can have 100 yards games… Solid attribute in a 3rd choice rb, plus he helps in the return game (well he is as inept as the others at least) I hope he stays. Its not like we’re gonna replace him with a big name rb is it? Sometimes its better the devil you know
Save us Pilares
by LimeyPanther on Nov 16, 2011 9:29 AM EST via mobile reply actions
It's a shame
The writing is obviously on the wall. Goodson could’ve been a very good change of pace back. We should probably start looking at some late round running back prospects.
"Excuses are a disease." -Cam Newton
you're right
Good rb prospects are available now in the later rounds which works against goody no end.
Save us Pilares
by LimeyPanther on Nov 16, 2011 10:22 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I like Goodson and think he earned a spot for returns alone.
I think he is 10 times the return man Pilares is.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
but with the new kick off rules-
and most every kick sailing out of the end-zone or not returnable- his value becomes even less…and then there’s still the fumbling…
You can’t seem to get over the fact that every time Pilares is back there the ball is either kicked out of the end zone or more than 5 yards deep can you? No returner would bring it out in that scenario…not even Goodson. So, what’s the difference between Goodson taking a knee and Pilares taking a knee?
Goodson got more opportunities to return kicks last year under the old rules, and he fumbles the ball 1 out of every 10 times he touches it. He’s unreliable.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Not very many...
He hasn’t gotten the opportunities that Goody has, it’s only his rookie season so I’d reserve judgement on Pilares.(especially if he rarely gets any playing time.)
"When you do something you love you don't have to work a single day in your life... I still haven't worked a single day in my life!" ~Carlos Santana
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 16, 2011 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
The thing is,
with the new rule, they are going to have to come out from deep in the endzone unless they are content to start on the 20. The players making names as returners, are bringing it out and making things happen. If they get met at the 10, the returner had 18 yards to find a hole if he took it 8 yards deep. Being a good return man means you have to be able to make a player or 2 miss you. They can to it at the 10 yard line just as easy as at the 30 yard line.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
The risk is higher than the reward though. Starting at the 20 is better than starting at the 10...
or if you’re Goodson, fumbling the ball at the 10 and giving the opponent and easy score.
And the returners who bring it out are doing so when the ball is less than 5 yards deep.
You just don’t bring the ball out when it’s kicked in the back of the end zone. You have to run 30 yards to get to the 20, which is where you’ll be if you don’t run it out at all.
Given our blocking (or lack thereof) Pilares is smart for taking a knee, because he guarantees a starting position on the 20 yard line.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
typo: giving the opponent AN easy score.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
No typos are allowed
Haha!
"When you do something you love you don't have to work a single day in your life... I still haven't worked a single day in my life!" ~Carlos Santana
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 16, 2011 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
Again...
You can’t seem to get over the fact that every time Pilares is back there the ball is either kicked out of the end zone or more than 5 yards deep can you? No returner would bring it out in that scenario…not even Goodson.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Again,
Randall Cobb – 108 yard return.
Joe McKnight – 107 yard return.
Ted Ginn jr. – 102 yards.
Those were all the longest returns. I am sure there are a lot more that were returned from deep that didn’t go all the way home. Point being, if you are a returner now days, you are going to have to try to return to succeed.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
You gotta remember too Bernzie...
We’ve got a shit load of injuries on ST and so far their play is atrocious so you can’t expect of those same players(including Pilares and Goodson) to make any plays.
"When you do something you love you don't have to work a single day in your life... I still haven't worked a single day in my life!" ~Carlos Santana
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 16, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
I'm going to take a guess here...
and say that these guys are a lot more confident in the blocking lanes being established on these run backs than Pilares is
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
by Tomthehomer on Nov 16, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
Two returns....wow Bernz.
You want Pilares (or Goodson) to risk starting behind the 20 (or turn the ball over behind the 20) based on two returns? With OUR special teams unit?!
You know what? I’m not even going to do this. You win.
Should have done this from the start.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
What do you mean 2 returns?
If you are happy with our return game that’s fine with me. I gave you some examples of what a return man is supposed to do. I am also done.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
You gave me a list of 3 kick returns...
Two of them met the criteria I am talking about (the ball being more than 5 yards deep in the end zone).
Our problem isn’t the return man. The problem is the lack of blocking, because we don’t have our normal ST unit on the field because of the injuries in other areas.
The reason Pilares is back there instead of Goodson is because Goodson has failed to prove he can hold on to the football consistently.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Is there a list of every kick return of 5 yards deep? All I could find was a list of the longest returns.
For all I know, that 102 yard return was from 9 yards deep and didn’t score.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
If you use NFL.com for your stats...
Returns for touchdowns will have a T beside the number of yards. Cobb’s is a 108T, McKnight’s is a 107T, etc.
And yes, the 102 yarder was a touchdown.
There have been 6 KO Returns for TD this season: 108, 107, 103, 102, 101, 98. Of those 6, only two of them were taken from more than 5 yards deep in the end zone.
The risk is much greater than the reward, especially when we have a group of gunners who can’t create lanes for the return man to run through.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
But how many were taken from 5 yards deep out to the 30, 40, 50 yard lines?
This stat is only showing the tds and longest, they aren’t telling where all the returns were caught.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Not to mention
Cobb was actually yelled at by McCarthy for taking the ball out, even though he did score a TD.
I don't always fail, but when I do...
I do it awesomely.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Nov 16, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Why would McCarthy yell at him? It's a perfectly logical play...
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
LOL
I don't always fail, but when I do...
I do it awesomely.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Nov 16, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
that is 1/3
There have been 6 KO Returns for TD this season: 108, 107, 103, 102, 101, 98. Of those 6, only two of them were taken from more than 5 yards deep in the end zone.
1/3 have been from deeper than 5 yards. 1/5 have been from the playing field. Your argument here says it is more common to return the kick off for a td deeper than -5, than it is at the 2 yard line.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Being from the playing field isn’t the point. It’s whether or not it’s more than 5 yards deep. 2/3 are less than 5 yards deep. That’s my point.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
When you provide the stats for my side of the argument am I supposed to ignore it?
This is the new nfl. If you don’t try to return the ball, you aren’t going to have any returns. Along with the 5 yards they moved the kick off spot to, they reduced the kicking teams running start, so they aren’t getting there as fast as they used to.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Huh? They gave them a 5 yard head start...
They moved it closer to the opposing end zone, not further away. It used to be from the 30, now it’s from the 35.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Duh. I know where they kick off from.
It’s where the rest of the team lines up. I am not researching this like I did all those stats, but I have heard several announcers say it during games. They say the kickoff team doesn’t have the running start they had running up to the kick like before.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
The kicking team moved up too.
They don’t have a “running start” but they’re 5 yards closer than they were, which negates the running start they had previously.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Which means the 5 yard difference in the kick off spot doesn't equal 5 yards closer at the original speeds.
I am only saying what the announcers said now. Yhis isn’t my opinion and I don’t even understand it fully. I think they were saying like for example, this isn’t fact but a comparrison. Under the old rules, the rest of the kick off team would be running 15 mph at the time they got to the kick off line, now they’re running 10 mph at the time they get to the line. That may not be much, but it is something. And like I said 100 times, if we don’t try to return any, we aren’t going to have any returns. I am ok with starting at the 20 but I don’t want to use a roster spot for some1 to take a knee.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
We're not really "using a roster spot" though...he's a WR
He hasn’t seen the field yet, but he’s on the 53 because we need a certain amount of receivers in case of in-game injury, etc.
And, I think it’s more of a try out than anything else, and you can’t really base a try out on a handful of games. They’ll probably evaluate it at the end of the season and then decide what they want to do.
Also, I think if more kicks were closer to the goal line he’d run more out, but with our depleted kick coverage there’s no reason to bring it out when it’s kicked deep, especially if you’re trying to win a job. The best way to win the job is to avoid making stupid mistakes, and taking a knee is the safest way to ensure that happens.
Trust me, I’d love to see him bring it out too, but I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for it to happen.
And, even if we did drop him, who else are we going to pick up? There’s no one available that’s worth bringing in.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
My only arguement was Goodson should start over him returning.
Now that Goodson is gone, I don’t care who they use. I had some faith in Goodson because i have seen him break out a run, I haven’t seen anyone else do it. Not in a long time anyway. I have no idea who might be better than Pilares now. I would be happy if he got it out to the 10 or 15 even, I just want to see him try instead of giving up as soon as he catches it. Looking at his stats, I saw he did return a few from the end zone, more than I could recall from memory, but it still isn’t enough.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Okay I can't stop yet.
Our problem isn’t the return man. The problem is the lack of blocking, because we don’t have our normal ST unit on the field because of the injuries in other areas.
When Pilares catches the ball 8 yards deep, and no1 is at the 20 yard line yet, that’s 28 yards at least of open space. Where is it that he is supposed to see the blocking for his return? He has 28 open yards and takes a knee. Granted those 28 yards won’t be open for long, but it is his job to find the gap and make something happen.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
There’s not enough time to find a gap, and by the time he got it to the 10, the coverage would already be there because our gunners can’t block or open up lanes.
It’s hard to find a gap when there are none.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Also, Goodson's average return is 22.7 yards.
So, we’re losing 2.7 yards by taking a knee with Pilares.
If Goodson were consistently getting it to the 35 yard line, I could buy the argument that a change needs to be made, but there’s just not enough evidence to say that Pilares needs to be replaced by Goodson.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
And, in case you're wondering, Pilares' average return is 20 yards.
The only advantages Goodson has over Pilares is 2.7 more yards and one less fumble.
To me, that’s not enough to say “we must put Goodson back in there because he’s 10x the returner Pilares is”.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
by BW Smith on Nov 16, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ijust watched that return of Hester. Where do you think the defense met Hester on the field? At the 10 yard line. He made some moves and got a return.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Becaue he's Devin Hester....
He’s the one exception to the rule.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
*Because
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
He didn't get to become famous for taking a knee did he.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
So you think Pilares should be Devin Hester, or be replaced?
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
No I think if he doesn't try to return 1 from deep he isn't going to return any.
We may as well sit him and let the ball bounce every kick off, and use that roster spot for whatever else they need a spot for.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
If the ball is kicked near the goal line he'll bring it out.
But that really hasn’t happened that many times for some reason.
But it’s not a smart play to bring it out when it’s kicked in the back of the end zone…it rarely works out well. Normally, the best you can hope for is the guy gets it back to the 20 yard line.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
I see what Bernz is saying
Taking a knee is not gonna help him develop his skills. Obviously we have to get better blocking and this won’t happen when they take a knee either. But there does have to be a point where it is to risky or the ball is to far back in the endzone. Since Rivera announced his new objective, I think it makes sense to run more out. I am not sure Pilares has the talent we need for returns tho. We should try several players, Hogan, D-lo (maybe) um, ok, we need more talent.
by Panthster on Nov 16, 2011 1:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, but I'll tell you this...
Pilares takes a couple out from deep in the endzone and doesn’t get it to the 20 you can bet your ass Rivera will bench him.
I don't always fail, but when I do...
I do it awesomely.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Nov 16, 2011 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe so
But what if he takes it takes to the house. If we don’t let him try, we will never know.
by Panthster on Nov 16, 2011 4:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I’d be willing to bet $20 that Devin Hester couldn’t take one to the house with our ST unit blocking for him.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Yeah....
Using Hester as a comp is like using Maddux as a comp in baseball. Don’t do it, because there’s nobody else like him.
Follow me on Twitter at @JakeHumphrey91
by Jake Humphrey on Nov 16, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
Ah good ole' Maddux
Probably my favorite Brave to ever play, other than Chipper Jones.
"When you do something you love you don't have to work a single day in your life... I still haven't worked a single day in my life!" ~Carlos Santana
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 16, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
Here we go (thanks Jake)...
My favorite Braves (in my lifetime)
1. Chipper (will be a LONG time before he’s bumped down).
2. Andruw
3. Justice
4a. Smoltz
4b. Maddux
5. McGriff
I also always had a soft spot in my heart for Jeff Blauser, Mark Lemke, Rafael Belliard, and Otis Nixon. And of course Sid Bream (whose slide home in ’92 made me fall in love with baseball).
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Damn!
That list takes me back! I loved watching Andruw Jones, and loved freakin’ Smoltz. Tom Glavine was one of my favorites too! Having Glavine come back after being with the Mets was awesome!!!
"When you do something you love you don't have to work a single day in your life... I still haven't worked a single day in my life!" ~Carlos Santana
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 16, 2011 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah...
I kinda lost some respect for Glavine when he gave in to union pressure and signed that deal with the Mets. But it was nice to see him come back. And, I like him as a tv analyst…he seems to do a pretty decent job (considering the other options that are available).
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Yea
I hated that he left for N.Y. too, but I couldn’t really stay that pissed considering how well Maddux and Glavine did as team-mates.
"When you do something you love you don't have to work a single day in your life... I still haven't worked a single day in my life!" ~Carlos Santana
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 16, 2011 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
So um yeah,
my favorite Red ever has to be Barry Larkin.
Then Jose Rijo.
Joey Votto is growing on me…
I don't always fail, but when I do...
I do it awesomely.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Nov 16, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
Joey Votto is a good player.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Chapman reminds me of Wild Thing.
I don't always fail, but when I do...
I do it awesomely.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Nov 16, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
I can totally see the resemblance...
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
LOL
I don't always fail, but when I do...
I do it awesomely.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Nov 16, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
And didn't he get that return against us?
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Just checked...it wasn't against us. It was against the Vikings.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Getting a touchdown return is much like winning the lottery,
you can’t win it if you’re not in it.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Yep...and you can blow your life savings buying tickets if you gamble too much.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
This.
I don't always fail, but when I do...
I do it awesomely.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Nov 16, 2011 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
Depending on the outcome, 1 can be too much.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
So like I said, we may as well let the ball bounce and free up that roster spot. All Pilares is doing is returns, and he hasn't returned many.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
You're exactly right.
And for those few occurrences when the ball bounces on the 5, we can let it be a gunner’s race to see who gets the ball.
You really can be excessively obtuse sometimes, you know that? (And I mean this in the nicest way possible.)
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
What has Pilares done when the ball didn't go into the endzone?
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Pretty much the same thing that Goodson has done.
He gets it to around the 20-25 yard line.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Goodson has had a couple, at least 1 I know of,
returns for td that were called back due to penalties. He has had explosive returns and rushes. He has proven he has the ability, Pilares hasn’t.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
1 more thing, I thought Goodson was better, he is gone now.
I still don’t think Pilares is the guy for returns. He hasn’t shown anything resembling a decent return yet.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
I don't necessarily think Pilares is the guy either...
But that doesn’t mean Goodson is 10x the return guy Pilares is, which is the original claim you made that I’ve disputed (and disproved).
My argument isn’t that Pilares is an All-Pro kick returner. My argument is that Pilares is just as good as Goodson based on the statistics we have from both guys based on this season (when both of them are playing under the same rules).
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
I don’t remember seeing any TD’s called back by penalty on kickoff returns from this season. Last season, maybe, but we’re talking about this year.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
I wasn't talking about this year. I was talking about overall.
Pilares has not shown any ability to return, Goodson has.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
As an aside.
During these last seven games, I’d like to see more of Armanti and Pilares at WR. We know what Legs gives us, so we should determine in the two question marks can play so we know how to attack that position in the offseason (or not).
Twaa...
You realise Hester is making a strong case for the HoF based on his return ability, right?
i.e. he’s one in a million.
Also that Bears STs unit is actually rather good. Ours is atrocious.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Perhaps, but he would be the first special teamer.
Maybe Ray Guy (punter) is in, but I’d have to look it up.
Twaa...
He's not, but he should be.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
You realise those 28 yards will be open for approximately 2 seconds, right?
Now I know Pilares is quick, but he’s not THAT quick. He does the right thing by taking a knee.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Holes close, I said that earlier in this thread.
He will never get a return taking a knee.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
You know...I give you credit for sticking to your guns.
Your stubbornness is unmatched Bernz, and I mean that in a nice way.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Ty,
I have an opinion of things and I stick to it until I am convinced otherwise. Much like most people here.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Wait, the information you were given didn’t convince you that Pilares is pretty much the same as Goodson?
I know “he will never get a return taking a knee” can’t be disputed, but surely the statistical evidence comparing Pilares and Goodson should be satisfactory.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
LOL
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Show me a list of where each player took the ball this year, and what they did with it.
That is how you prove a point. In my memory, from watching them both play, Goodson is a far more explosive player. Whether you catch the ball on the 5 yard line, or in the endzone, you have to make the rifst wave miss. Goodson has shown he can do that, no matter where on the field it was he caught the ball, he made the players miss.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
The problem with this evaluation is
You are comparing a known quantity in Goodson to a largely unknown quantity in Pilares.
I don't always fail, but when I do...
I do it awesomely.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Nov 17, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
Another problem...
You’re comparing two players who played under two different sets of rules.
Goodson fielding kickoffs last year had more opportunities because the kicks were shorter (from the kicker kicking 5 yards further back) than Pilares has had this year.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
I am sure Goodson's past years performances
probably cloud my judgement but it is what it is. Goodson has shown he can do it. Pilares hasnt. Okay so I exaggerated it saying 10 times better.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Here's the problem with past years' performances...
They were under a different set of rules. The kickoff being moved to the 35 is a big deal because it pins many return men in the end zone, not just Goodson/Pilares.
Also, Pilares hasn’t shown he can do it in what, 3 games? I think we need a larger sample size to make that determination.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
I think Pilares has had 4 or 5 games already.
And the past years performance shows he can make players miss. That stands as a fact no matter where he caught the ball. And as to this,
Your theory (bring it out no matter what) goes against the norm of every kick returner except for a select handful who have long kick return touchdowns this season
My theory is not bring it out no matter what, it is bring it out if you have 30 yards of open space when you catch the ball.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
He's had 10 returns in 6 games. So less than 2 per game.
Yeah, he’s had plenty of chances.
And, those 30 yards of space you’re talking about…they close very quickly. By the time the return man gets out of the end zone, it’s more like 5 yards of open space, if that many.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
If he met them halfway he would be at the 10 yard line,
If you watch highlights of returns, more often than not the kicking team meets the return guy at the 15 yard line. That is a 5 yard difference.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
It still doesn't justify bring it out of the end zone...
And when you add in the risk of fumbling the ball behind your own 20, it’s an even bigger risk to bring it out.
With our offense, the best play when the ball is kicked that deep is to take it on the 20 and put the offense on the field.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
*bringing
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
If you are goping to use fumbling as a reason,
We better just let it bounce no matter where it lands. The old days of not returning it from the end zone are over.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
I gave you their average yards per return.
I don’t have an exhaustive list of each return, and if that’s what you require to acknowledge a counter point in a discussion (and admit that you might not be as correct as you think you are) then I will never discuss anything with you again, because you’re asking for the impossible, and I don’t do impossible.
Goodson: 11 returns / 250 yards / 22.7 yard average return / 31 long
Pilares: 10 returns / 200 yards / 20 yard average return / 27 long
With Goodson returning kicks, the Panthers gain an average of 2.7 yards of field position over 11 possessions. Considering the fact that moving the ball down field (at least to the opponent’s 20) isn’t the problem, the difference between the two is moot. Adding in the fact that Goodson’s longest return is only 4 more yards than Pilares’ longest return, I can’t see why anyone would argue as vehemently as you have that Goodson is so much better than Pilares.
Your basic premise, taken from your argument, is that in order for Pilares to be any good as a kick returner he has to bring the ball out of the end zone, regardless of how deep the ball is kicked.
Your theory (bring it out no matter what) goes against the norm of every kick returner except for a select handful who have long kick return touchdowns this season (definitely the exception to the rule). Add in the fact that one of those returns belongs to Devin Hester, the best kick returner of our current generation and a once in a decade talent at the position, and another one belongs to Randall Cobb, who was chastised on the sideline for bringing the ball out (even though he scored a TD — which was a lucky play because he made a great play to avoid a tackle), and your point is even more abnormal.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Okay I did some research on Goodson's returns. Here is what I found.
Game 1, Cardinals
1- Goodson returns to Car. 16 for 18 yards. 2 deep.
2- returned to Car. 26 for 31 yards. 5 deep
The rest of the kick offs were touchbacks and no way for me to know if they were kicked out of the end or knelt. I am not counting touchbacks in any games because of that reason.
Game 2, Packers.
1- returned for 16 to Car. 15. 1 yard deep.
2- returned for 22 to Car. 18. 4 yards deep.
3- returned for 24 to Car. 21. 3 yards deep.
4- returned 22 yards to Car. 17. 5 yards deep.
Game 3, Jags.
Looks like no returns in that game except Edwards did a return after a safety for 4 yards. It was kicked to the Car. 27, don’t know why so shallow. The other 2 were touchbacks.
Game 4 Bears.
1- Returned for 30 to Car. 24. 6 yards deep.
2- returned for 21 to Car. 14. 7 yards deep.
3- returned for 17 to Car. 20. 3 yards out.
4- returned for 26 to Car. 36. 10 yards out.
5- returned for 28 to Car. 23. 5 yards deep.
6- Pugh returned for 28 to Car.23. 5 yards deep.
Those are the play by play records at fox sports gametrax
If you want to prove your point, you can go do the research for your guy , Goodson was out after game 4 so Pilares starts game 5.
From my memory, Pilares hasnt done anything to compare with Goodson.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
For a real comparrison I did your work for you, here is what I found.
Game 5, Saints
1- 15 yards to Car. 23. 8 yards out.
2- 21 yards to Car. 34. 13 yards out
Game 6, Falcons
1- 22 yards to Car. 19. 3 deep
2- 23 yards to Car. 22. 1 deep
3- 21 yards to Car. 23. 2 out
4- 22 yards to Car.22. goal line
Game 7, Redskins
1- 15 yards to Car.11. 4 yards deep
Game 8, Vikings
1- 20 yards to Car.19. 1 yard deep
2- 14 yards to Car. 24. 10 yards out.
3- 27 yards to Car. 24. 3 yards deep
Game 9, Titans
1- 0 yards to Car. 3. Fair catch???
These are his stats, they don’t look as impressive as Goodson’s to me, how about you?
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
After doing my math I have discovered.
Pilares average starting point is at the 1.8 yard line.
Goodsons average starting point is at -2 yard line.
Goodson is still having a better return average even at the disadvantage of starting deeper than Pilares.
I believe that proves that Goodson is a better return man, at least it does to me.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
He has 8 returns of more than 20 yards
Pilares has 6. 2 more returns isn’t that much of a difference.
Where do you get Pilares starting at the 1.8 yard line and Goodson starting at the -2 yard line (that’s in the end zone, btw)? I’m not following your math.
I think arguing with you is practically pointless. You’re the only one who refuses to acknowledge that Goodson isn’t that much better than Pilares this season. I provided you with average kick returns for both players, and it’s a 2.7 yard difference. If that’s enough for you to want Goodson, then so be it — he’s your guy. I’m done with this, because you’re impossible to discuss anything with.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
I don't know why I'm doing this, but I'm going to make my point one last time.
I have access to the game books for the games we’ve played this season, and I pulled the kick returns for both Goodson and Pilares:
Goodson:
10 returns / 7 touchbacks / 234 yds / 23.4 yd avg return
Pilares:
10 returns /16 touchbacks / 204 yds / 20.4 yd avg return
What Goodson has done is get 3 yds per return more than Pilares over 10 returns. Pilares has had more than 2x the amount of touchbacks that Goodson has (and I know for a fact that at least 3 of the 5 in the Titans game were out of the EZ). Whether all of the touchbacks were non-returnable is something that we just don’t know, but I do know that when they bring the ball out, the difference between the two is moot, unless you think an average of 3 yards over 4 games is a huge deal (and I hope you don’t, because then you’re just being argumentative for the sake of arguing).
When Pilares brings the ball out, he averages getting it to the 20. When Goodson brings it out, he averages getting it to the 23. I don’t see why 3 yards makes you say that Goodson is that much better than Pilares (in all honesty they’re both inferior).
If you still can’t admit that you’re wrong about how much better Goodson is than Pilares, then I think it’s best we just stop discussing this further, because there’s nothing anyone will be able to tell you that you’ll believe. You are right that Goodson is better than Pilares because he has 3 more yards per return, but honestly it’s not that much of a difference, at least not as much of a difference as you make it out to be.
I just noticed that my math is different from the NFL.com math I pulled earlier, but I’m too lazy to go back and find out why (my guess is I missed a return somewhere). You can trust whichever set of numbers you want, they both pretty much tell the same story: Goodson isn’t that much better than Pilares, which has been my point all along. Sure, Goodson may be better because he has 3 more yards average per return, but it’s not that much better to stop letting Pilares return kicks to see what he can do over the course of the rest of this season.
And besides, if Goodson were that much better, why did the coaches put Pilares out there in the first place?
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
BTW...disregard my "I'm not following your math" statement.
I had a brain lapse. I see what you mean now.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Okay now this...
When Pilares brings the ball out, he averages getting it to the 20. When Goodson brings it out, he averages getting it to the 23.
Okay you are saying Goodson is averaging getting the ball to the 23 yard line. You are saying Pilares is averaging getting the ball out to the 20. That is 3 yards difference. Now figure in that Goodson is starting out 2.8 yards deeper than Pilares, thats 5,8 yards difference.
Is 5. 8 yards per carry a lot?
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
You don't start counting until they get out of the end zone.
The starting field position is what matters.
But if you want to count the extra 2.8 yards, then so be it. It still doesn’t make Goodson that much better than Pilares. If the end result was starting on the 26 instead of the 20, then I’d possibly agree with you, but when both of them end up behind the 25, there’s not enough difference to call Goodson that much better than Pilares.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
to this...
You don’t start counting until they get out of the end zone.
That’s why all the records say how deep the ball was when they caught it, because those extra yards do not count.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
The only reason they do is to show were he brought it out from.
Besides, even if you do count them, it’s still only 6.8 yards…on a kickoff return….that ends up at the 23 yard line as opposed to the 20.
Your argument doesn’t hold that much water Bernz. Goodson isn’t markedly better than Pilares. In reality, they both suck.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
They do it because that is part of showing the risk the return man was willing to take.
And Pilares doesn’t want to take any.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
And Goodson showed in his last game he was willing still,
returning 1 from 7 deep and 1 from 6 deep.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Funny, and Goodson's the one who's on the way out.
Hmmm….
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
And, he wasn't injured when he got benched and replaced by Pilares.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Didn't he get replaced because he muffed a catch,
then recovered it and returned it for like 6 or 10 more yards? And hasn’t Pilares done that same thing?
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
That's why he got replaced in the same game...
But I don’t know exactly why he got replaced permanently. But, he did, so apparently the coaches don’t think he’s that great at returning kicks, otherwise they wouldn’t have switched to Pilares until this week when Goodson got hurt.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Maybe Goodson wasn't getting it done in practice...
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Maybe not but Rivera said b4 his injury that he was working hard.
And seemed like Goodson would be back soon, then the imjury.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
My belief is that they wanted to try Pilares.
They couldn’t try him on 1 game, they wanted a few to see. Then Goodson got injured.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
But if Goodson is so good, why try someone else?
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
For example...
Would they put in Clausen to see if he’s improved over last year? No. Why? Because Cam is an excellent QB.
(And I’m not talking about situations like a 56-0 blowout game with 12 minutes to go. I’m talking about to start a game when we’re not guaranteed a top-5 pick in the draft.)
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
You are turning what I said into something I didn't say.
I never said Goodson is so good. I said Goodson is better than Pilares.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Apparently they don't think so...
Because they never put Goodson back in (pre-injury).
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
I think they know more than we do.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
What's your famous line?
They get to see them in practices every day, and we don’t?
So, if they’re seeing both of them in practice, and STILL going with Pilares over Goodson…I think it’s because they think Pilares is equal to or greater than Goodson.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Of course they do.
Doesn’t mean they are always right does it? Now tell me. Do you really think Pilares should be returning over Goodson, from what you have seen?
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Yes, I do.
Two reasons:
You get the same result (ball behind the 25).
Goodson has just as much potential to fumble the ball (based on his history) as he does to return it for a touchdown. Statistically, it’s actually more likely that he’ll fumble.
I prefer the KR who makes the safe choice (taking a knee), rather than the guy who might break it but might cough it up.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
You told me before I can't use Goodson's stats from previous years.
Now you are using his stats from previous years. They both muffed a catch this year.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Ok...take his history away.
He is still more likely to fumble, as he has more fumbles than he does touchdowns.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
And yes, I know Pilares has muffed a kick too.
So they’re even.
(btw…even doesn’t make Goodson better. It means they’re even.)
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
You're right. It does.
I’ve been wrong all along. You’re the only one who’s right. Goodson is the one who should be returning kicks. I hope he comes back next year and is the KR, because he’s the best we’ve got.
You win. I’m done with you.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
You were done when you asked me how I came up with their average starting positions.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
And for some reason I let myself get sucked back in.
But don’t worry. I’m done with it. I won’t discuss anything with you anymore, because it’s too exhausting.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Yeah, you sure did.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
If your point was you're impossible to talk to.
You sure as hell proved that.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Way to bring out the hardcore evidence,
you da man
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
If you take his history away,
He has 0 fumbles.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
And how many KR TD's does he have?
Oh that’s right….zero.
He’s just as likely to do either one, and given his propensity to fumble as a running back, he’s more likely to fumble than he is run one back 100 yards for a TD.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
He has had 1 or 2 td returns that were called back for penalties.
He had 4 fumbles last year, 1 the year b4, none this year. I believe you can find another player almost that many from this year.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
When did he have those?
I don’t remember any KR TD’s called back for penalties.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
I don't remember when, but I remember it.
Here is another 1 I found on a fast search that wasn’t called back.
SATURDAY, AUGUST 28, 2010
Panthers lead 12-7 after Goodson’s 91-yard kickoff return TD
After a little more than three quarters, this game suddenly caught fire.
A 91-yard kickoff return touchdown from Mike Goodson pushed Carolina to a 12-7 lead. That came seconds after a Kerry Collins TD pass that briefly gave Tennessee a 7-6 lead.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Oh I forgot to give the props to the CO for this article,
It was a Scott says article.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
That was in the Preseason.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
It still happened didn't it?
You asked me when, I found 1
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
My belief...
They wanted to try Pilares because they felt Goodson wasn’t good enough for what they’re looking for in a kick returner.
(And I don’t know if Pilares is good enough or not. Based on what we’ve seen so far, he’s not.)
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Do you know how to do an average?
Where do you get Pilares starting at the 1.8 yard line and Goodson starting at the -2 yard line (that’s in the end zone, btw)?
You add all their starting spots, then divide the total by the amount of returns.
If you average the spots they caught the ball on every return, Goodson is average at the -2, & yes that is in the end zone congrats, Pilares average is on the 1.8.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
I told you I had a brain lapse.
I know how to do an average, btw. I lernd that in skool.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
I replied to that b4 I read all your posts
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
I saw that after I made the reply.
Look. I’m not going to convince you that they’re pretty much even, and you’re not going to convince me that Goodson is markedly better. I think it’s time to end this, and agree to disagree.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Hear ye, for I have spoken.
They’re about even when it comes to returns. Goodson holds a slight edge, but when you factor in his butter fingers it makes Pilares more valuable at the KR position.
I don't always fail, but when I do...
I do it awesomely.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Nov 18, 2011 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
I believe Pilares did the same thing Goodson did in fumbles this season.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
When one ends up at the 23, and the other ends up at the 20, yeah…it’s about even.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
23-20=3 Bernz
It doesn’t matter if Goodson carries it out 3 yards deeper…he’s only getting to the 23 yard line on average.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
If you compare it like that,
Newton is about the same as Matt Moore, they both have about the same record…..
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
doesnt matter what they did to get there, its about the same.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
That's probably the dumbest thing you've said.
I’m out.
You win. Your strategy of tiring your opposition is effective, because I really am tired of trying to convince you that starting from the 23 isn’t that much better than starting from the 20.
Have fun continuing this with anyone stupid enough to keep the discussion going.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Way to be mature,,,,,,,,
Try to make yourself right by quitting? I showed you their stats, there is a 6.8 yard difference in their carries, no matter where they ended. Those are yards we all watched, and Goodson was more explosive than Pilares.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
There's no point in arguing with you...about anything.
You bury your head in the sand and refuse to acknowledge the other side of the argument. What’s the point?!
Sure, Goodson has 6.8 yards more….but 3.8 of those are negative yards because they’re from running it out of the end zone. The end is what matters, and in the end; Goodson gets it 3 yards further than Pilares.
Even if we use your number of 6.8….it’s not THAT much better to where we should cut Pilares and keep Goodson ONLY to return kicks.
If the difference was 10 or 15 yards, then yeah I’d buy your argument, but you are arguing something that really doesn’t make that much sense — a guy should be the kick returner because he brings it from the end zone and gets it to the 23, as opposed to a guy who brings it from the goal line (or slightly in front of it) and gets it to the 20?! It’s not a convincing argument, and I wish you would realize this and acknowledge it.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Part of the arguement was that Pilares is not taking it out when he should.
He is taking a knee with 30 yards of open field ahead of him. I want a return guy that’s going to try. I know the 3 yards Goodson got on the field doesn’t mean much, but it was giving us the possibility of a return. And 6.8 yards is a lot if you look at the kick off return averages.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Then we've been arguing two different things the whole time.
And I’ve even further wasted my time, and yours.
You’re arguing an opinion, and I’m arguing a fact.
You said earlier that Goodson is 10x the returner Pilares is, and I’ve disproved that. (I know you said you exaggerated, but still, he’s not even 2x the returner.)
You’re arguing based on what you want and feel, and you can’t do that when the other person is arguing based on what is.
If you WANT a returner to run it out of the end zone, that’s fine: but I’m arguing why it’s not a good idea based on statistical averages and facts.
Sure, I’d like to see him run it out too, but it’s not a smart move, especially with our horrible kick coverage team.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
So if
23-20=3 Bernz
It doesn’t matter if Goodson carries it out 3 yards deeper…he’s only getting to the 23 yard line on average.
A player catches 10 kickoffs at the 20 & goes out to the 21, and another player catches the ball at the 15 and goes to the 21 they are the same because they both got the ball to the 21?
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
In the end, yes.
Because in both scenarios, you end up in the same place.
The only thing you can say about Player B is that he has more potential to break one, but it’s about average starting field position, not about who might run one back.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Okay, I see your stance,
Potential doesn’t matter 1 bit, it’s where they end up. Even though Goodson ends up farther out on the field starting deeper in the end zones.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Yes. It's about field position.
And Goodson does end up further out. A whole 3 yards. Less than 10 feet.
Wow…he’s so much better than Pilares.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
btw.
That 6.8 yard difference would make a player move up from 26th rank to rank 10 on this list I see.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Still doesn’t change the fact that he can’t consistently get it past the 25 yard line.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
You lost.
6.8 ypc is far better , thats 16 spots in the ranks.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Oh please...whatever dude.
It’s not enough of a difference to keep Pilares off the field, even when Goodson is healthy.
But if it makes you stop arguing about it, then fine I’ll concede defeat. I’m really tired of talking to you about it.
I’m going to take my advice from long ago and just ignore you, because trying to talk to you about anything is pointless.
You win. I lose. Goodson is better than Pilares because he has 6.8 yards more per kick return, even though they both end up behind the 25 yard line when they’re tackled.
But fine…whatever. You win. Good day.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
And with this, I bow out.
We’re going in circles.
You like Goodson because you think he’s more explosive.
I like Pilares because he takes the guaranteed field position.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Yes.
To me that’s better than bringing it out from the back of the end zone and running the risk of fumbling or getting tackled at the 10 yard line.
But, to each his own.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Excuse me, I was wrong.
It’s a 6.8 ypc difference. 3.8 difference on where they catch the ball, and 3 yards on the field where they end up.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
Clemson is the best school in college football. I win.
((Except for Georgia Tech. Damn you!))
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
There was a story long ago about a man who saved the world. A legendary receiver with speed as fast as light itself. But he has passed on. His journey is one with the Raiders. But now, a new star has risen in the heart of the South. His veins bleeds orange. His legs are thick, his movement swift, and his hands are as large as the heart in his chest. His name is Sammy Watkins. And together with Sherlock Boyd, they will solve many mysteries together.
I like Goody
I am all for punishing stupid mistakes, but sitting him for half the season… The point of using negative reinforcement is to teach them NOT to do it again, but they can’t show that they learned if they never touch the rock again. Sit him for a game or part of a game and I liked making him carry the football all day. To harsh of punishment no longer accomplishes its goal of teaching. Unless, Goody is dropping it in practice, he should get another chance to prove himself. Especially now when we clearly need help and have nothing to lose. He is still our best kick returner if I remember right.
by Panthster on Nov 16, 2011 10:13 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Was just reading an article about Rivera and the coaching staff going forward...
and Gross was saying that after the Titans game, he made it clear as day that they were drawing the lines now and were only going to keep/play the people who looked like they wanted to play (I’m sure it was far more “colorful” than that, but according to Gross it stuck with the team). I think this is just reinforcing why we’re not seeing Goodson, since it was well known earlier on that he was not quite “all there” (remember the “not feeling good” story a few weeks back?) I hope the best for Goody, cause he seems like a cool guy, but he needs a change of scenery, maybe go to a team who needs a versatile back like himself (I would not be surprised if he ends up on Cleveland’s roster next season, since they have some young talent but will be in the market for someone young but decently priced as well). I’m just hoping they continue to play Keiser and Neblett, because I think both of those guys have the “hunger” our defense needs going forward (besides, at worst they can become good depth players to have, which you can NEVER have enough of)!
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
i think that is what we basically are doing this year. Developing depth and this staff is getting a good hard look at just what they have and dont have. 7 games left…At this point players are playing for their future. Rather it is here or elsewhere because with the effort we have seen on special teams and defense id be shocked if we didn’t see a major overhaul in this staff’s first FULL off season
Proud member of the Panthers Mafia!
Saving The Environment One Green Comment at a Time
'We're the little brothers getting punched in the head. Pretty soon, we're gong to learn to punch back.'" - Ron Rivera aka BAMF
by MMA_PITBULL on Nov 16, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
Good to hear on Rivera drawing that line.
Can you fart out a link to that article?
by Swamp Panther on Nov 16, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
http://www.freep.com/article/20111116/SPORTS01/111116003/Ron-Rivera-Carolina-Panthers-eye-future?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|Sports|p
It’s a Detroit article, interestingly enough lol
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
by Tomthehomer on Nov 16, 2011 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
I liked seeing Keiser out there.
He looked like a man on a mission.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Keiser is another Standford guy so you know he is smart. And the kid has worked his way from being undrafted to picked up to practice squad to 53 man roster and i think his Playing time only increases. Because it clear the effort will be there. He came out of school too early according to most scouting reports so he ceiling is really unknown.
Proud member of the Panthers Mafia!
Saving The Environment One Green Comment at a Time
'We're the little brothers getting punched in the head. Pretty soon, we're gong to learn to punch back.'" - Ron Rivera aka BAMF
by MMA_PITBULL on Nov 16, 2011 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
I think "man on a mission" perfectly describes it...
I was just in awe at the open field tackle he made on CJ; granted, I know it wasn’t some thunderous hit (or terribly pretty), but CJ is nothing if not one of the most elusive backs in open space, and he got him down in a wide open area with no backup in the vicinity of the reception. If I am to don my “Gruden hat”, “Man, I tell you what Jaws, that’s a play that FOOTBALL players make!”
Nobody fucks with the Jesus! -Big Lebowski
by Tomthehomer on Nov 16, 2011 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
I agree re: the tackle on CJ. It was very impressive.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
not to mention it was his first action in the NFL…we all gave credit to Cam in his debut that the game didn’t look to big for him. Id have to pay to same compliment to Keiser. Didn’t look like a rookie getting his first shot at playing
Proud member of the Panthers Mafia!
Saving The Environment One Green Comment at a Time
'We're the little brothers getting punched in the head. Pretty soon, we're gong to learn to punch back.'" - Ron Rivera aka BAMF
by MMA_PITBULL on Nov 16, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
I'm almost wondering
If our DE’s are already deeper than we thought. Applewhite & Norwood are more of those rotational type guys but if Keiser continues to get better he has the size to be one of those every down players that could spell Johnson & Hardy
"One step at a time"
Yeah i saw a Mock draft and it had us taking a DE…i think we got far more bigger issues then DE.
Proud member of the Panthers Mafia!
Saving The Environment One Green Comment at a Time
'We're the little brothers getting punched in the head. Pretty soon, we're gong to learn to punch back.'" - Ron Rivera aka BAMF
ding ding ding
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Yeah. You might actually need to watch the NFL if you wanna do a mock draft.
But that’s just me.
Twaa...
It's not just you my friend.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Are you serial?
You don’t have to watch any football to do a mock.
Signed-
PT
I don't always fail, but when I do...
I do it awesomely.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Nov 16, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well played.
To add:
All’s you gotta do is watch highlights on You Tube and stuff.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
by BW Smith on Nov 16, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
In the end he's the 3rd string running back. Is he quicker and more elusive than DeAngelo Williams? Is he more powerful than Stewart?
Goodson isn’t going to have good playing time as long as he has two good backs in front of him. Common sense. I hope the Panthers resign him though because he provides great depth behind Williams and Stewart. Unlike a lot of other positions on our team, this one we have under wraps.
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
There was a story long ago about a man who saved the world. A legendary receiver with speed as fast as light itself. But he has passed on. His journey is one with the Raiders. But now, a new star has risen in the heart of the South. His veins bleeds orange. His legs are thick, his movement swift, and his hands are as large as the heart in his chest. His name is Sammy Watkins. And together with Sherlock Boyd, they will solve many mysteries together.
My question is why would we EVER play him?
J.Stew and D.Will are almost perfect compliments to each other (when used properly). If you use one, you can change the pace with the other. There’s no reason for us to use Goodson in any situation.
The only time I can come up with is during blowouts to prevent injury.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
I Just Wish They Had Traded Goodson Before The Trade Deadline, A Few Teams Were In Need Of RB Help Even Then, & The Writing Is Clearly On The Wall For Goodson
I just hope putting Goodson on IR doesn’t hurt his trade value too much this off season.
Maybe the Panthers can trade doghouse players with the Bears, for WR Johnny Knox (6-0, 185, 4.34-40, 45 catches as a rookie in 2009, 51 catches in 2010, with a 18.8 YPC) during the off season. He could be the perfect backup for Steve Smith, and the 2nd good deep threat to take pressure of Smith from the other side, as the 3rd WR.
Knox is also a pretty decent kick returner, which would fill another need.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Let's not forget something here...
Goodson only got his opportunities last year because of injuries to 3 running backs. Williams, Stewart, and Sutton were all injured. And he still coughed the ball up a good bit last year.
To me… I don’t really see how we lose anything by cutting ties with him.
I think its a bad move to put Goodson on IR if you don't have to.
Just like the last two or three years, when the Panthers had six or more losses a lot of players started to shut it down and go on IR. I don’t expect D Williams to play the entire season, so they’ll need Goodson at some point. You can fix fumbling – I think its a character/locker room thing with him.
The more the Panthers lose, the more you’ll see players going on IR (i.e, Shockey, 89, etc.)
You can't just put players on IR to put them on IR...
We didn’t do that last year, and we went 2-14.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
What is the criteria to be put on IR?
Seems like a hamstring shouldn’t be reason enough, I hear about them all the time.
Don't tell me about the labor pains just bring me the baby
You have to be injured and unable to play for a "period of time"
That period of time can be 2 weeks, it can be 6 months.
Basically, they weren’t going to play Goodson anyway, and his injury is a reason to put him on IR and free up a roster spot.
You can put anyone on IR as long as they’re injured, but you can’t put a healthy player on IR.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
Per Wikipedia:
A team may place a player on injured reserve (reserve/injured list) who is “not immediately available for participation with a club”. These players may not practice or return to the Active List for the rest of the season (including postseason games) that they are placed on injured reserve, but are allowed to be with the team.
The truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you. ~David Foster Wallace
I may not always be right, but even a blind nut finds a squirrel every once in a while.
yea, any type of injury can technically land a player on IR
sometimes teams do it more for the roster spot if there’s a position of greater need or they want to take a better look at at practice squad guy. In this case who knows what all of the reasons are, but I know that we need help on special teams, especially on coverage. I heard RB Josh Vaughan will take his roster spot. Vaughan is not a very good runner but if he’ll contribute on our kick coverage teams, we certainly need the help. They also brought up LB Kion Wilson today, likely for the same reason.
Just curious, why do you think D-Will won't stay play out this entire season.
He’s hardly getting any burn this year compared to years past.
Average carries per game prior to this season: 13.1
Average carries per game this season: 9.2
Newton for '11 ROY!
Walker for '11 ROY! I mean, assuming the lockout will end anytime soon...
Biyombo fo...ah who am I kidding? GO PANTHERS!
ugh...edit fail
why do you think D-Will won’t play out this entire season?
(had a brain freeze while deciding between “stay healthy” and “play out”)
Newton for '11 ROY!
Walker for '11 ROY! I mean, assuming the lockout will end anytime soon...
Biyombo fo...ah who am I kidding? GO PANTHERS!
Bye Goodie
Well maybe Rivera is making an example of him. It sounds like it is more than just dropping balls or Naanee would have been long gone.
Great article on Rivera which confirms that he is not playing to win but to build for the future which is what I suspected (as we as others). I’m ok with that. We are out of the playoffs and the winning next year starts now.
Now let’s focus on eliminating the mistakes. You can’t make a superbowl run with the colossal mistakes we have seen every game this year. Lets learn to catch, tackle and block. Let’s make sure Cam gets thru in one piece and test our talent. Ease the fans expectations of post-season and winning this year and kick ass next year!
by Panthster on Nov 16, 2011 1:29 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Said this on the fanshot:
I may be wrong but Goodson being put on IR may have been a good idea from an injury perspective. I don’t know if this is writing on the wall that he’s on his way out, but it could just be a precautionary measure. Hamstring injuries are pesky (See Miles Austin, Peyton Hillis, Andre Johnson, Julio Jones, etc.) Maybe the coaching staff felt its better that he just take it easy and let it heal for the rest of the season, as he hasn’t been a vital part of this team anyway. It’s better than trying to come back and retweaking it over and over again.
Or maybe I’m wrong and they were just looking for an excuse to get him off the 53 man roster.
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