To 3-4, or not to 3-4... that is the question
Speaking with the media today defensive coordinator Sean McDermott stated that the Carolina Panthers will be utilizing the 3-4 more moving forward this season. While we always knew this would be a possibility with Ron Rivera's familiarity with the system (he ran a 3-4 in 2009 and 2010 in San Diego) I'm really not a fan of making the move at this time.
On Sunday in Atlanta the Panthers used the 3-4 on several occasions. In this scheme Frank Kearse played the nose tackle flanked by Terrell McClain and Greg Hardy with Antwan Applewhite and Charles Johnson serving as the outside linebackers. In terms the effect it had on the game it was minimal, but Applewhite flourished in the scheme, which raises a number of questions about how the 3-4 could be executed. I'll look at how a 3-4 would work...
After the jump
Let me begin completely disagreeing with Charlotte Observer beat writer Joseph Person. This afternoon on Twitter he wrote the following
Ron Fields and Frank Kearse both are true noseguards.
Just because a player has played 3-4 NT in the past doesn't mean they're suited to that position. This applies to the aforementioned Fields and Kearse, as well as Ron Edwards who played NT in Kansas City before signing with Carolina as a free agent. All three players are fan better suited to playing in a 4-3 scheme. I say this for one key reason: None of them have been reliable at holding the point of attack in a 3-4, otherwise they wouldn't have been let go.
In moving to a three DL scheme you're putting the most amount of pressure on your NT who is needing to hold the point of attack against a center and a guard with regularity. So far we haven't seen a DT be able to hold the line in a 4-3, so why do we think someone could do it without help? I'm okay with the 3-4 being used as a curiosity, but it scares me to use it often.
This takes us to the next factor which is the linebacking personnel. In the Panthers 3-4 on Sunday it was James Anderson and a combination of Dan Connor, Thomas Williams and Jason Williams who all took turns playing ILB. In reality, I'm not concerned with the ILBs because with Beason back in 2012 he and James Anderson can hold the middle fine.
Big Money, Big Problem?
On the surface it may seem like a waste of his talents to move CJ into a 3-4 defense, however it might surprise you to hear that Charles Johnson could be extremely successful as a 3-4 OLB. While he doesn't have the lateral speed needed in coverage he can more than deal with rushing the passer. His 10 yard split at the 2007 combine was 1.63 seconds. While this doesn't stack up with the elite 3-4 times in the NFL like Clay Matthews' 1.49, he does compare favorably with DeMarcus Ware (1.62) and Mario Williams (1.70). In short, he will be able to get to the passer a lot in this scheme. When you combine this speed off the line with his strength we could really see many multi-sack games from Big Money.
Caging the Kraken
This is probably the area I like the least in moving to a 3-4. Despite being a fan favorite, Greg Hardy is also the spark on defense when others can't seem to make plays. The problem with Hardy is the 10 yard split I talked about in reference to Charles Johnson. Hardy's greatest attribute as a pass rusher is his rip move, it's absolutely amazing and it's this that allows him to get out of his stance and make it pass tackles. However, he doesn't have the speed off the line to play outside linebacker. At the 2010 combine he registered a 1.71 second 10 yard split, and while that is close to Mario Williams' number he doesn't have Williams' strength.
We saw this on Sunday when the coaching staff asked the faster Applewhite (1.61 10-yard) to play OLB opposite CJ while the Kraken played DE. I'm not a fan of this because even the most dominant 3-4 DEs don't get the opportunity to make many plays from their position, and the fact is we need Kraken to be a spark at times.
Remember to practice safe sacks
Think it's a coincidence that the Baltimore Ravens have Ed Reed, or the Pittsburgh Steelers have Troy Polamalu? What about Eric Weddle in San Diego, or Eric Berry for the Chiefs? On thing that the 3-4 relies on his having a stout, hard hitting, reliable safety who can basically play to his position title and being the safe guard in case a running back hits the second level, or the QB gets an outlet pass out against a full blitz.
Think about those guys: Reed, Polamalu, Weddle, Berry.... now imagine if our legitimate last line of defense relied on Charles Godfrey making a smart tackle. The thought of it is pretty ugly because of the way Godfrey plays; he can dish out the hits, and 50% of the time he'll stop someone in their tracks, or he'll take a bad angle which takes an 8 yard gain and makes it a 30 yard one. One wonders with Chris Harris reportedly demanding a trade whether the Hitman could be a temporary answer, but it would require us to really go out and invest a high pick in a safety in order for it to work.
Time will tell whether the McDermott 3-4 experiment will be for 10 snaps, or 30- but regardless I'm not sure we have the personnel right now to pull it off. As it stands we desperately need a NT and a true SS before we can even hope the guys moving position can make plays. It's a ballsy move, and it could throw some teams off out of the gate but I'll admit the idea scares me a lot right now.
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As a package, I'm fine with it
As a philosophy shift, which I don’t think is taking place, I’d hate it. This is a team built for the 4-3, there’s no reason to scrap that.
Now a Wade Phillips 3-4, which is basically a 4-3 with an end standing up, is something I could get more behind, but we still need to stick with a 4-3.
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4-3 or 3-4 this defense is getting fixed over night. We got some serious needs we must address in the draft / free agency and we can be at the least competitive on that side of the ball. Until then Cam and the offense is going to look for 6 on every drive or chances of winning are slim
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Saving The Environment One Green Comment at a Time
'We're the little brothers getting punched in the head. Pretty soon, we're gong to learn to punch back.'" - Ron Rivera aka BAMF
isn’t*
Proud member of the Panthers Mafia!
Saving The Environment One Green Comment at a Time
'We're the little brothers getting punched in the head. Pretty soon, we're gong to learn to punch back.'" - Ron Rivera aka BAMF
Yeah, thats putting a lot of strain on a rookie offense
"Panther Pride" -Sir Purr
by Son of a Newton on Oct 17, 2011 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn't matter at this point
I am starting to really believe that as long as McDermott is calling the plays we would get run over with 11 in the box. He gives me the same warm feeling Jeff Davidson did.
I agree to an extent
but it’s hard to pass judgment on him when he has two rookie DT’s and no playmakers with Beason and Davis out. He should get another year before we start comparing him to Davidson.
I dont think it’s ever going to be our base d. It doesn’t use our players to their full strengths and Sean McD never ran a 3-4.
It's not Rivera's forte either.
He only ran it in San Diego because Wade Phillips had previously installed it. Rivera knows it, but it’s not his scheme of choice.
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"Safe Sacks" - ISWYDT. As a sub-package, I'm fine with it -- but I'm not sure we've got the execution part put together yet.
As the future, we would need a monster in the middle. Draft or FA, because I don’t think he’s on the roster right now.
I wonder how Hardy would be as a DE in the 3-4. I respectfully disagree with you, James, about the Kraken’s best attribute. To me it’s the motor, the tenacity, the relentlessness he brings. I would hope Kraken could match the best in the game, and these guys do stand out: Darnell Dockett, Cullen Jenkins, Kendall Langford, and Haloti Ngata.
I actually love the idea of CJ as a rush LB. Strongest man on the team, fast enough — could be even better than he is now. Beast and Anderson eat whatever comes their way. Is Applewhite the answer? Maybe, sample size is too small.
I’d like to see Sherrod Martin as that rover safety. He can hit, and he’s a ball hawk. Go for it.
So, really, the way I see it, all we needs is a Fatty. (Hmmm… speaking of which, see ya later)
So much to be done, and so few people willing to do it for me.
Point of emphasis
Our defense, when healthy, has a plethora of talent… What scares me, is that in a 3-4, Jon Beason would no longer be the heart and soul of the D… And let’s be honest, torn Achilles or not… With him not being that focus point, our D becomes inept… Look at the stats this year.
by danism on Oct 17, 2011 8:28 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
How would Beason not be the heart and soul of the defense?
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by Jake Humphrey on Oct 17, 2011 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Cos he's a 4-3 Mike.
In the 3-4 at least one of the ILBs has to be able to take on an O-lineman head on and plug the hole i.e. they have to be quite big. Similarly the OLBs ideally have to be quite big for the same reason – they have to become extra D-linemen against the run if required.
Beason is what, 6’0", 230? He’d struggle to not get blown out of the hole. His biggest asset is his ability to go sideline to sideline. In the 4-3 the D-line keeps blockers off him so he’s free to make plays (also the reason Morgan was so damn good in this scheme). He’s also quick enough to drop deep into coverage in a Tampa 2 too. He’s basically a better Vilma (and remember I saw both in college) and Vilma failed in a 3-4.
I’m not saying it couldn’t work, but I seriously doubt he could be partnered with say Davis or Anderson in the middle. We’d have to either hope Connor is the man or go out and find somebody.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
This
The ravens ran a 3-4 in the early 2000’s and Ray Lewis once said that “he could finally play football again” now that he didnt have to take on O-lineman every play when they switched back to a 4-3. That is what Beason would be doing… taking on Lineman, not playing the run or dropping into coverage, which is his Skill.
Don’t get me wrong, trying it out this year, since our D is struggling and its an attempt to get all of our play makers on the field with our LB replacement struggling, I just dont think NEXT YEAR, its a smart move to “evolve” to it. You don’t pay Big Money…Big Money… or Beason and then make a dramatic switch like that..even over time. It doesn’t utlilize their skill sets. It would be smarter to draft a top DT or Zach Brown with the first Pick (I say Brown, and address DT in the 2nd).
Yup.
DT, LB, secondary—in that order.
From what I’ve seen the secondary could use a big, physical safety. I’m not sure we’re going to pay Connor what he wants in the offseason, and with the uncertainty surrounding Davis, (and Beason to a degree) LB is sure to be a need. DT is going to be difficult, even if we have, say, the 11th pick. I hope Edwards can come back, since that would slightly ease the pressure to upgrade at that position. We need one of two things at DT—Speed/Quickness or Size/Power. Right now, no one in the corp is really exceptional in either area.
As for special teams…I’d like to see Baker have to beat someone out in camp. And we’ll hopefully get healthy to where the three backups playing significant roles at LB can go back to making tackles on special teams.
"Between you, me and the wall here, I had a bit of a doozy myself last night. Get this: A corn-fed harvest mouse, a hooker, a nun, a Flemish peasant woman, whips, chains, whistles yo-yo's, a circus midget. My grandmother riding by on a bicycle giving me the finger, and a duck! Now, I don't know 'bout you...Are you crying?"
Reed and Polamalu basically freelance within the scheme.
They’re great players because they’re so disruptive – it’s not so much about them being ‘safe and reliable’, but rather defences have to account for them on every play.
And no I don’t think Godfrey is a safety (he’s a corner) and I don’t rate Martin very highly too. We’d have the same problem be it a 3-4 or a 4-3 in that position.
As for a switch to the 3-4 well I don’t think we have the ideal personnel for it, but honestly the defence can’t get much worse. If it’s what Rivera is comfortable with it’s worth a shot.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
The way I look at it guys.........
one of the things I like about Rivera is that he is not afraid to make changes when things aren’t working. I think that’s why he’s willing to do anything this year to make improvement, even moving to more 3-4. I support him in making changes to get better this season. I did think Applewhite had a couple of good QB pressures yesterday that I liked. Dont forget than Norwood can contribute as an OLB too in a 3-4.
to me this is more about a lack of faith in the DL
I think this is more of a bandaid to stop the hemorrhaging than it is a philosophical shift.
I don't always fail, but when I do...
I do it awesomely.
by BusyBeingAwesome on Oct 17, 2011 9:32 PM EDT via iPhone app reply actions
I think it really depends on how long you want to build the system...
Rivera put together the best defense in the NFL last year running a 3-4. However, we just don’t have the personnel for it. If we want to move into a 3-4 that’s fine by me, but transitioning into it before we have the pieces in place is going to take a lot of time.
In short, changing our scheme to a 3-4 won’t solve our immediate problems and in order to make that change we would have to make the same kinds of adjustments to the personnel. Either way we have the same problem: deficiency along the defensive line (particularly at DT). Changing scheme isn’t going to fix that.
James, Hardy Hadn't Fully Recovered From His Injuries At The Combine, Running A 4.96-40, But A 4.79-40 A Month Later
I think Hardy’s 10 yard split is probably faster than a 1.71 for that same reason. Hardy still wasn’t fully recovered by his Pro Day when the ran the 4.79-40, and in college had ran in the 4.6’s.
The guy does look pretty fast in practice.
I heard a story about him out running some receivers or something like that during training camp.
"Hope for the best plan for the worst"
"They laugh at me because I'm different, I laugh at them because they're all the same"
I admit being fascinated by the "what if?" aspect of it..
Being what we’re doing isn’t working very well but I think we have to stick with 4-3 as our base, if for nothing else than continuity right now… These guys are learning a new system, do we really want to give them another one to learn already? However, with that said, I would love to see some 3-4 thrown in to mix things up. Hell, I’d love to see anything thrown in to mix it up. Things like the Packers “Psycho” is amazing, it has to have the other team saying “WTF?” when they see it. We can’t stop them straight up, why not use some gimmicks?
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Our "Times Square" defense worked great in spots last year.
Everybody standing and milling around ’til the last second – confuses the blocking schemes.
Never used it once this year. Must’ve been discarded as a Davidson hare-brained idea.
Something has to be done to change the inadequacies of our DTs, though, and I guess they’ll be grasping at straws until something succeeds, or at least staunches the flow of blood, so to speak.
In Rivera we trust
We’ve had issues all over the place but LB seems to have been the biggest concern. It seems to me that their trying to take our guys who have shown more promise and get them on the field (while also trying to cover up for guys who consistently whiff). I’ve never been a huge fan of 3-4 defenses but I like that their addressing the issues and trying to find a solution. Big Money definitely has the speed seeing as how he has routinely made hustle plays several yards downfield this season. I’m a fan of Applewhite as well. We’ll see how it goes.
"One step at a time"
I Love The Idea Of Being Able To Shif Defenses To Keep The Offenses Off Balance Posted My Ideas For A Hybred Defense Of the future Before the Season Started
Along with problems stopping the run, the Panthers have a major problem in that their pass rush is comming from only 2 players, CJ with 5 sacks, Hardy with 3, and CB Captain Munnerlyn with 1 sack. Allowing either DE to drop back off the line, and switch pass rushing lanes might help.
It could work by starting Applewhite at SLB, and moving Anderson to WLB in their 4-3. Then when they shift into a 3-4 Anderson slides inside to ILB, either DE drops back to 3-4 OLB, and Terrell McClain shifts from DT to 3-4 DT. They would still need to get a bigger NT next year, around 330 pounds.
it would be even better if they could add a LB/SS who could play LB (Probably at WLB), and be able to also drop back a 5th DB, as a SS allowing one or both S’s to cover a 3rd or 4th WR. They may have had such a player in training camp who could have pulled it off, FS Michael Greco 96-2 7/8, 224, 4.40-40, 41.5 inch vertical), but he was released with an injury settlement.
From what I saw of the interview with McD
He said part of the reason he wanted to come to work with Rivera was the chance to “marry” the two schemes. He said they have it as a package in every game but we just saw it for the first time sunday. I’m not sure there’s a whole lot to be concerned with here. It’s a nice wrinkle to throw out from time to time, and the interview made it sound like that’s the way they intend to use it.
"Beer, both the cause of and solution to all of life's little problems." - Homer Simpson
I thought
we had used this a few times in games earlier this season as well. Anybody have any stats on how many times we’ve used and its productivity? I’ve never been a huge fan of the 3-4 & then I was reading an article about it last night that got me pretty excited. Talking about how it’s easier to disguise coverages and harder for an offense to tell what gap a player is blitzing. Then I had an image of us overloading one side of the defense with Hardy, Applewhite & Anderson blitzing…. Then a few lines later I read something to the extent of
In the 3-4 system every play essentially succeeds or fails based on the play of the NT. —bangs head on desk
No, but seriously, like you said I like what it sounds like their going for here
"One step at a time"
would need to see hogan first
before i can make an opinion on the 3-4. at least we know that gamble is a great man cover guy, would love to see another guy on the other side that could hold his own as well. there’s a bit more to the 3-4 than the nose, edge seals need to be there as well to really free up the safeties.
aside from that, it would be really freaking weird to see the panthers in a 3-4. though a 3-4 with an awesome hogan (theory) and harris(perfect pickup with a big if) running cleanup would be kinda freaking awesome.
Meh.
"Between you, me and the wall here, I had a bit of a doozy myself last night. Get this: A corn-fed harvest mouse, a hooker, a nun, a Flemish peasant woman, whips, chains, whistles yo-yo's, a circus midget. My grandmother riding by on a bicycle giving me the finger, and a duck! Now, I don't know 'bout you...Are you crying?"

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