Panthers vs. Steelers: The Morning After
by Cyberjag on Sep 3, 2010 9:09 AM EDT
in Panthers Game Recaps
Email
PrintThe Panthers held a full-pads scrimmage with the Steelers last night in a game designed to show the league why moving to 18 games is a good thing. There wasn't a lot to write home about, as Fox held out the starters for most of the game.
But the reserves all played like they're fighting for a roster spot, and in several cases you could see why. When you're watching these sorts of game you may find yourself wondering how these guys made it into the league. With some of them it's painfully obvious that this is the closest they're ever going to get to playing on Sunday.
It's hard to watch, but sometimes you have to take one for the team, and be a fan no matter what. I watched the game from start to finish, although I was sorely tempted to turn it off after the half.
At the end I felt like we had put a collection of college players in Panther uniforms and sent them out there without a playbook. It wasn't pretty, but on the other hand it was football. There was beer and nachos, and bad football is better than no football.
So here are my random thoughts on what we saw last night. Have fun picking them apart, and add your own. We've got lots of speculating to do before cuts. :)
The staff has to cut 22 players by tomorrow. The defense made some decisions hard, but the offense made a lot more of them pretty easy.
But first, the defense. It looked great, and it's nice to feel like you're used to that considering the questions we had there early in the season.
Greg Hardy looks like a future starter and star, and Derek Landri looks like what we hoped Nick Hayden would become. Those guys are on opposite ends of the spectrum as far as being physical prototypes for their positions, but it's a testament to Ron Meeks that each goes 100% on every play until the whistle. I saw Hardy let up a little at the end of a play once, and it genuinely surprised me.
Williams is fast, but he's not a middle linebacker. We need Connor and Beason on the field to stop the power running game. The Steelers were just dominating us at the line all night--on both sides of the ball.
Which reminds me--someone tell Pouncey that the starters are going to be playing during the regular season, and they'll all remember that punk effort he made to take out Williams' knees. That's another argument against the pre-season, and not one we need to see demonstrated.
It looks like we have a big talent drop-off in our linebacker and secondary depth. Then again, Munnerlyn didn't travel and neither did Richard Marshall or C.J. Wilson. We were running with rookies and scrubs in the second quarter on, and it showed.
But all in all, I loved watching our speed. Even the fifth string waterboy looks fast on defense. And unless things change, that's going to be our saving grace this season.
The offense... ugh. It just looked awful, and as with the defense it's another "as usual" observation. Too bad it's an "as usual" on the bad side.
You have to wonder just how well Jeff Davidson has his unit prepared. Meeks isn't game planning, and the defense is turning in an incredible performance. Our offense, on the other hand, can't get anything going. It doesn't matter who's the quarterback, what line is playing, and who the running back is. We're not moving the ball. Other teams aren't game-planning, and yet they're scoring anyway. I can accept that excuse for a couple games, but at this point it's gotten ridiculous.
Maybe someone just needs to let Davidson stay home during preseason, and let the second string OC call the plays. They can't do much worse, can they? I'm hoping to see something very different next week, but one wide receiver can't make that much difference. Davidson is either the worlds biggest sandbagger or the most overrated coach in the NFC South.
I guess we know exactly what Kasay's range is this year.
Mike Goodson looks better than he did last year. If he continues on this path, we're going to have an interesting set of options next year when Williams' contract is up.
Dwayne Jarrett looks lost and tentative on running plays. He's probably got the best hands on the team, Smitty and the Tight Ends included, but there's so much more to the receiver position on this level. You have to block, you have to get separation, you have to be aware of the chains, and he doesn't show any of that. On physical tools alone he was worth the gamble of a second round pick, but at this point I wouldn't be surprised if the coaching staff decided to cut it's losses and let him be someone else's problem.
On the flip side, Brandon LaFell needs Jarrett's hands. He loves to lay a body on someone, and he runs from start to finish. I love seeing that, and based on his production I'm guessing that's why he is a favorite for the starting role. It's a tough choice--do you want the guy who can catch, or the guy who can play?
Is it too early to call Duke Robinson a never-was? He just doesn't look like he wants to play in the NFL.
Maybe it was the defense, but Armanti Edwards didn't look that effective in the wildcat (or mountain cat, or whatever cutesy name they have for it). His throws weren't bad, but his running won't scare anyone. The announcers suggested we ran it just to make the Giants prepare for it. I hope they're right.
Edwards did have a legitimate NFL moment last night, and it was as a receiver when he caught the ball and turned it upfield for a first down. I'm glad they're still using him, and think he'll do well someday, but I don't think it's going to be as a gimmick. He's going to be a legitimate receiver for us someday.
It was nice to see the scrub quarterbacks in extended action. Cantwell has the better arm, but Pike is a better quarterback. Keep the rookie, and teach him how to throw to both sides of the field.
David Gettis or Charley Martin? That's a tough one. Gettis does everything well, but isn't great at anything. Martin has been AWOL most of camp due to injury, but is quick and likes special teams. I think if Gettis gets more work in the slot he could develop into another Rickey Proehl, and I think Martin can contribute immediately. Maybe we cut Jarrett and keep both?
Thank God the preseason is over. I don't think I could take any more--this was worse than 2001.
131 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Edwards
I thought he looked good out there, and actually had a better passing game than our 3rd and 4th string QBs. As for his runs out of that set, I think it had more to do with our abysmal O-Line depth. They were getting pushed back on every play, and the play where he lost yardage, he got pushed back 5 yards by his own guy getting owned. It was a catch-22, if he went inside he was tackled for a loss b/c that block was awful, and if he bounced outside like he did he almost got knocked off his feet by his own man. I’m surprised it wasn’t a bigger loss.
I thought the cries to PS both Pike and Cantweel and have AE as 3rd string QB were all jokes, but I think its a legitimate option after last night.
by ppalm on Sep 3, 2010 8:52 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
PS both Pike and Cantwell and have AE as 3rd string QB
That would give them a position to use. Now WHERE they would use it would be up for debate. I’d like to keep Eric Moore, but maybe it’s another WR or someone for Special Teams?
If a team is down to their 3rd QB, they arae in trouble anyway, so to me AE’s performance was at least “Good Enough.”
by panthersnbraves on Sep 3, 2010 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Pike would last 30 seconds on the PS
Based on what we saw last night, he would get snatched by another team pronto
PS - OK , fine
but are they so valuable that you cut someone else?
On a side note – would that make the Panthers eligible for compensatory draft picks? If so, it’s a wash.
by panthersnbraves on Sep 3, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
No
You only get compensatory picks for something out of the team’s control.
If a player retires or openly signs with another team you are compensated. You don’t get a compensatory pick for electing to cut a player and losing out if you’re trying to put them on the PS
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I didn't see anything positive from Pike last night.
He rolls to the wrong side of the field (can’t throw from running left), his range is about 5 yds, and anything longer than that puts his intended receiver in harm’s way, as the pass takes forever to get there, and he’s very slow in surveying his options and getting the ball away. So we made one bad draft choice. Big deal. Adios. Move on.
If they have a couple of qb injuries
They will probably hire someone outside to come in like they did in 07 when Jake was out & they went through like 15000 qbs.
Here's the difference though
Edwards won’t be able to turn the edge like he did in college. NFL speed is too good for that. The Wildcat in Miami is most effective with runs up the middle. If Edwards does that with the Panther’s 1st string line, then you could see some gains. Miami tried to use Pat White in a similar package (different than the actual Wildcat package), except he was terribly inaccurate. If Edwards can become effective running up the middle in that package, then you could also see his passing become more effective.
aka "The Duke"
Proponent of I-AA Football
Driving the Roberto Wallace Bandwagon
Unofficial Phinsider DJ
Size is an issue...
Armanti will need a year or two in an NFL conditioning program to make running up the middle effective. I think he’s just too small for that at the moment.
CJ2K is a freak
There’s few players in the NFL with that kind of acceleration and speed.
aka "The Duke"
Proponent of I-AA Football
Driving the Roberto Wallace Bandwagon
Unofficial Phinsider DJ
His acceleration and speed are one of a kind at RB right now.
There may be a few WR’s and DB’s with his speed, but until Johnson starts to break down from over-use, he’s in his own league at the moment.
Yeah he's a special athlete, but he'll also break down very soon.
Once he loses half a step he’ll be finished – he doesn’t have an all round game to compensate. It’s all speed based.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
Yeah, more of a shooting star type of career
Guys like him (Gale Sayers) with once in a lifetime speed, tend not to last very long once they start to come back to the field speed-wise.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Sep 3, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Which happens with one knee injury, usually followed by another.
We’ve seen it so many times.
Where there’s a will… I want to be in it.
2 biggest takeaways I had:
All in all, I loved watching our speed. Even the fifth string waterboy looks fast on defense. And unless things change, that’s going to be our saving grace this season.
1) I agree. I couldn’t believe how they were still swarming to the ball even in the second half.
2) I was really impressed by Jarrett on that longer throw from Cantwell that was underthrown. Jarrett got up, kept his eye on the ball the whole time (was looking down at it) and knocked the balls out of the DB’s hands.
And he seemed to elevate about 4 feet.
That was making a good play out of a badly thrown ball.
Eric Moore can make valuable defensive plays. Those 2 would only send in plays and carry clipboards, anyway.
Moore, Clausen, Edwards – that’s all we need there.
From all I’ve heard on this blog, about how great Clausen’s going to be (from the ones who differ from me that feel Moore’s already good enough), why should we care about guys who can’t cut it, and won’t see the field anyway? Use the roster spots for somebody who’s done well, who’d have to be cut to make a spot for Cantwell or Pike.
Not at all, if they're healthy.
But I feel he’s a potentially more valuable asset (if needed) than the 2 “project” QBs are.
I go back to the fact that Moore and Clausen are the best 1-2 set of QBs that we’ve had here, and a 3rd is a luxury we don’t need.
EMoore has played hard, and been very productive – Cantwell and Pike have not.
Of the 4 DE’s ahead of him, 2 are on the field every play – more chance of 1 or 2 of them suffering an injury (in which case, EMoore is instantly valuable!) from some ankle roll, or cut block, or whatever, than both Moore and Clausen going down. That’s my take, anyway.
I'll go out on a limb and say...
…I don’t think we should retain Pike, Cantwell, or Eric Moore. Waive them. Sign however many of them you can to the practice squad…or let them go, if you have to…but, it’s more important to retain players for special teams and the offensive line more than anything else, in my opinion. Obviously, our special teams need better players. So, if there’s someone who’s distinguished himself there (say, Nic Harris, Aaron Francisco, or Trent Guy?), hold onto them over Pike, Cantwell, or EMoore. That’s because they’ll provide immediate help to an area of need on this team. Pike, Cantwell, and even EMoore wouldn’t do that. We’ve already got enough DEs in our rotation to be good there. And Moore, Clausen, and Armanti Edwards can give you enough QB’ing capability that it’s worth risking losing either Pike or Cantwell by trying to stash them on the practice squad.
But that’s just my two-cents,
—Neil
P.S. By no means does this indicate I don’t like Eric Moore. I thought he played really well. I thought he distinguished himself. So did the other DEs that we’ll need to retain (i.e., Greg Hardy, Everette Brown, Charles Johnson, and Tyler Brayton). The competition with Moore may have helped bring out there best. I wish him well whatever happens.
Wonder if we could trade E. Moore for a good backup G/C? Any thoughts?
Where there’s a will… I want to be in it.
I'm not going to hold that against him...
We brought him here to be a special teams ace. If he’s on the mend and he captained an entire unit for another team, he could be a vital asset to keep, even though we haven’t gotten a chance to see him. But, in all honesty, I don’t know. I leave that kind of evaluation to the coaches. That’s what they get paid to do. Still, I thought he was worth citing as a possibility player to retain over EMoore at a position of need for the Panthers.
YMMV,
—Neil
I agree with Big D here...
I’d rather have E. Moore than Cantwell or Pike – he is more valuable as a backup than either of the two QB’s are…
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Come September 12th, we'll know.
“You have to wonder just how well Jeff Davidson has them prepared. Meeks isn’t game planning, and the defense is turning in an incredible performance. "
Excellent point. Between Davidson, Scherer (QB), and Tolbert (WR), our coaches aren’t getting the wideouts prepared. Hurney and Fox have done a remarkable job of finding defensive players late in the draft, but our WRs aren’t getting it done. Are we drafting that poorly or are the coaches to blame? Also, I know it’s tougher to learn the WR position, but Jarrett’s time may really be up.
I used to think it was quarterback play
Now I think it’s the plays that are drawn up. It’s not like our guys are open, and they can’t all suck. Someone like Brees or Brady can make me look good out there. We’re just not getting it done from a sidelines perspective, IMHO.
I went back and forth with a Davidson fan last year at this time, and his comment was that Davidson’s strength isn’t in the WRs, it’s on the Line.
Okay, and ???
Remains to be seen.
The front office, obviously, made a real effort to address the passing game, but I agree, I don’t know if the coaches are up to the task. It’s going to be tough again this year if we get down a couple of touchdowns early and have to play catch up. I’m optimistic that we’ll get it done…somewhat anyway. :-)
On that point it's interesting to note
that the only productive WR they’ve brought in since John Fox was coach was Ricky Proehl (unless you count Keyshawn Johnson). Seifert drafted Steve Smith. So maybe there is something there.
42
I have to say Jarrett's time is, in fact, up, at least as far as I'm concerned...
Before camp started, I said he would need to really shine through camp and preseason. If anyone thinks he’s been shining, I’d have to wonder if I know shit from shinola.
Where there’s a will… I want to be in it.
Shinola smell good.
That main distinguishing feature.
Hear you guys but..
I’m not a fan of Armani Edwards. I think Hurney messed up big time giving away the 2nd round pick. I also don’t want to see that Mountaineer package/gimmick again. I get they want to get something out of him (regardless of where) but just leave him inactive all season while he gets his skills together. I’ll take Gettis anyday over that kid.
I'm with you on the mountaineer package
If we want to run the wildcat, do it with Williams and Stewart.
I’m no App fan, but I do believe that Edwards is going to be a very good receiver for us. We just have to give him a little time to learn the new position.
The flashes he showed last night at WR were encouraging
Considering he’s only had about 2-3 months of work at becoming one, he looked like he is making good strides. With time he will get better and better. I think he has shows steady improvement through all the preseason games as a wideout.
Still, it would be foolish of us not to make opposing defenses honor Armanti’s passing ability. It needs to be a threat, and we need to throw it out there once in awhile. It’s just one more advantage our offense could have, and it would be senseless to waste it.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
i agree.
I thought he looked pretty good throwing the ball. (small sample size of course) He spent his entire college career doing it and was very successful. It’s is another dimension teams will have to spend time game planning for. He has the most receptions of any receiver this preseason and is a legitimate passing threat, and I think we should use him in whatever way puts the most points on the board. I think we’re going to see more and more Armanti as the season rolls on. Project Armanti is only beginning…
Rules and Regulations of the Game: 89, Bottom Line
by John Chilton on Sep 3, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
And...
…not only will we see more and more of him, I would suggest that he’ll get better and better as he gains that experience. The more he sees the field (i.e., receiving, special teams, and wildcat), the better off he’ll be. You don’t learn and polish your skills that well sitting on the bench and just participating in practice. You need to participate in live-game situations. And Armanti will get his chance…
You don’t learn on-the-job in the NFL and be successful. Any mistakes or sign of weakness will be capitalized on when you are on the field with the best of the best. Thats just my 2 cent worth. You guys are much more optimistic than me.
Matt Moore?
Terrible in preseason, but he learned on the job when it counted.
Steve Smith too… he was just a punt returner out of college.
Tom Brady also… his first three starts after replacing the injured Drew Bledsoe he posted QB ratings of 58, 62 and 79… he learned on the job.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
i was in the middle of using Matt as an example...
…foiled once again.
Rules and Regulations of the Game: 89, Bottom Line
by John Chilton on Sep 3, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
So did Peyton Manning.
28 INT’s his first year, a rating of 71.2.
http://www.nfl.com/players/peytonmanning/profile?id=MAN515097
you definitely learn the job in the NFL
game experience is the most valuable of all.
Rules and Regulations of the Game: 89, Bottom Line
by John Chilton on Sep 3, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
*on the job*
Rules and Regulations of the Game: 89, Bottom Line
by John Chilton on Sep 3, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I hope you guys are right. I don’t want storming out of the sports bar cursing that guy. Or tossing a timberland boot at the flatscreen.
I think they'll be very sparring with him taking any snaps
early on this season. They threw it out there a few times last night because the game didn’t count. I expect they’ll take their sweet time and continue his development as well as tweaking some of the formations before using it in real games.
Rules and Regulations of the Game: 89, Bottom Line
by John Chilton on Sep 3, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
There was an interview last night with a Panther's coach.
I recall it was WR coach Tyke Tolbert, but I may be mistaken.
He was saying that they’re going to find ways to use Edwards, because he was a winner. He’d been in the EZ so many times in college, and found ways to win games. That’s what they want to tap into.
That’s why all the experimenting in the 4 pre-season games, with PR, KR, WR, and now QB. They want to get him used to being on the field in various positions, because they know he’s a gamer, a leader, and a winner.
None of this do they know about Cantwell or Pike, and so he’s now #3 on the QB ladder, IMO. I’ll be astonished if, after last night’s debacle, both of these guys aren’t either cut or assigned to the PS, from whence if they get picked up, c’est la vie.
+1
I agree. Armanti is a threat in the speed department. If he has a decent O-line blocking for him out of the Mountaineer package, who knows what he could do with it if he hits the open field. When they run the wildcat Deangelo, everyone knows it’s a running play. With Armanti, they have to hesitate, even if it’s just for a split second to determine if he’s running or throwing. He’s legitimate threat at either. And you want that kind of threat in your arsenal so it forces other teams to game-plan for it and defend against it.
I think the "mountaineer" plays we saw last night aren't plays at all.
Those were just practice snaps to Edwards, to get him used to the speed of the defense.
Once the season begins, we’ll have different OLmen in there, Smith running his pattern, entirely different run/pass options for Edwards to choose from. No way they’d show an actual play we might run when the games count. The positive thing to take from it is that he threw well from the QB spot, better than did Cantwell or Pike, who were slow and confused back there.
Mountainer Package
Coach Fox is probably making up for not allowing Dan Henning to run “Wild” with the offense.
The best Edwards package
It’s going to be Armanti lined up wide. From there, we can throw him the ball, we can throw him a backwards screen, from which he can still throw forward or run, we can run the reverse and give him the option to run or throw. But sticking him behind the center and let him run a wildcat offense isn’t going to be effective. He’s not big enough to run between the tackles, and he’s not fast enough to make the edge. We need to spread it out for him.
Or we can just use him as a wide receiver. He may turn out to be pretty good at it.
I'd like a wishbone package
TE-LT-LG-C-RG-RT-TE
-—————QB———————
-—-RB—————RB———-
-———-Edwards————
D-Will, J-Stew and Edwards on the field.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Oh man
I just want to know what would happen if they put both Williams and Stewart on the field at the same time. But that formation has so many possibilities.
42
Now that's what I like... out of the box thinkin'
He doesn’t have to run up the middle if he hands it to someone who can. A good play action gets him time to throw or run. You’d have to be a noodlehead not to want to see the Panthers get adventurous for a change. Edwards will learn on the job, as stated above, but when he does, a lot of big doors open up. The kid can throw the ball, and he can run the ball, and he can catch the ball, and he can throw while he runs, catch while he runs, don’t know about catch while he throws.
Where there’s a will… I want to be in it.
Used to love watching Barry Switzer use the wishbone in Oklahoma
He beat the pants off of a very good Miami team in ‘83 by racking up 390 rushing yards. Talk about ripping a defenses’ heart out.
Guess how many passing yards Oklahoma had that game…Zero.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Sep 3, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
A solid QB performance and a wide receiver to rise to threat level status is all we need. No gimmicks just power running and play action pass.
Looking at both Qbs
I really hope that they decide to keep Pike and stash Cantwell on the PS. Cantwell has experience but to me he’s never been a player that can extend a play and keep the drive alive. Saying Pike has a slow release is an understatement, but he made some smart decisions under pressure last night. Cantwell has the rocket arm, but i’ll take smart and mobile over rocket arm everytime. Either way with all the talk we heard about Cantwell’s strong arm, he hasn’t really showcased it at all. With last nights performance Pike may have just squeaked by Cantwell, but he has WAY more upside than Cantwell does.
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Sep 3, 2010 11:38 AM EDT reply actions
After last night...
I’m not sold on Cantwell or PIke. Would love to see a fair comparison between all the QBs where each QB got to play with the first team. Its hard to get a feel for what any of them can do when they’re all playing with and against different personnel. After watching last nights fiasco, Armanti appears to be the 3rd best option at QB right now. Would hate to see the team lose players who could contribute to try to hang onto either one of those QB projects. Not sure which other franchise is so desperate for a QB that we should worry about the risk of losing either of these projects.
Take the world as it is, not as it ought to be.
Pike
has a lot more upside than Cantwell does. Cantwell wasn’t picked up off of waivers last season because no one thought he was worth looking at. And there were a lot of teams with QB questions last season too. He won’t get picked up, unlike Pike who I think would quickly get snatched up by some other team in a heart beat.
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Sep 3, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Still don't see either of these projects as an NFL starter
based off of what was displayed last night. Maybe these guys look better when surrounded by better players. Hard to tell by their play last night, but they were both running for their lives a good bit of the game.
Take the world as it is, not as it ought to be.
I think
with a full year under the NFL conditioning program and a full offseason of weight lifting to strengthen the arm, Pike will have a much quicker release. The guy does have some pocket presence, at least more than Cantwell did. Every time someone gets past the O-line it’s a sure sack taken by Cantwell. The dude just can NOT scramble worth beans!!!
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Sep 3, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I told y'all Pike was a QB. He gets 'it', he just probably doesn't have a strong enough arm.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
Why are you guys worring so much about a 3rd stringer, who won'e ever see the field unless there's a rash of injuries (to Moore and Clausen)?
A 6th LBer, or a 6th WR, is way more potentially valuable, than a 3rd string QB, who’s a “project” at best.
Hey
Might as well have all the Qbs ready just in case Moore and Clausen go down. I believe Pike has “it” and with some conditioning he’ll be an adequate starter.
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Sep 3, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
If by "it," you refer to his talent at running backward or sideways, and then heaving it OOB to avoid the sack, I'll give you that.
But standing in the pocket and delivering a tight spiral to a WR in stride, more than 5 yds downfield – I ain’t seen it yet. Sure, he’s been forced to play with backups OLmen, but so was Edwards, and he got off a few very nice forward passes, not dumpoffs that gained 0-2 yds.
And sure, keep 'em all, provided we have a 75 man roster.
But we don’t, as of tomorrow.
if we had open roster spots or if we could put him on practice squad
I’d be all for keeping him. He can’t help us win this year and we need 53 guys that can. We can’t even consider it “depth” at the position because he can’t play at the NFL level yet.
Rules and Regulations of the Game: 89, Bottom Line
This is why...
…you put players like Cantwell and Pike on your practice squad. They can’t help your team right now. They’re both still developmental projects. So keep them around for practice. If someone else has an immediate need and snaps them up, good for the player. But it’s not like we can’t go out and get another developmental project with a late-round pick just like we acquired these guys in the first place.
In addition, (and I haven’t heard anyone else point this out), we’re also facing a potential lockout next year due to the expiration of the collective bargaining agreement. The owners and players’ union are still WAY apart from each other. So, just for argument’s sake, let’s say we tried to stash Pike and/or Cantwell on the practice squad and some other team snapped them up. Would either of them see the field of play this year? No. Most teams will have a QB in front of them. Will they see the field next year? Very unlikely, because of the lockout possibility. Will they see the field in 3 years? Maybe. Who knows? But, what I do know is that in 3 years, there will be PLENTY of other QB prospects for the Panthers to take a look at…and that’s assuming Moore or Clausen haven’t already established themselves as our franchise QB. If that does happen, then it won’t matter if we still have Pike or Cantwell on our roster at that point. Neither of them will ever see the field as long as our #1 QB stays healthy.
So, I’ll repeat: I’m not worried about waiving Cantwell or Pike. In fact, I don’t think a team should ever worry about waiving a 3rd string QB. You can ALWAYS find another QB3, whether it’s via the draft or free agency.
Meanwhile, what you can’t find…or, at least, what’s not as easy to find…are those roleplayers that help make your team better. Guys who won’t be 3rd stringers, but rather, guys who can make an immediate impact on special teams or as a rotational player…or as immediate insurance in case an offensive lineman or defensive lineman goes down and you have to reshuffle the line to cover for the starter’s absence. These are the kinds of players that help you win championships. A 3rd string QB is just a guy who may help you find a diamond-in-the-rough many years down the road for your franchise. The Panthers need roleplayers more than a QB3 right now.
But that’s just my two-cents,
—Neil
by NSpicer on Sep 3, 2010 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hear, Hear, or is it Here, Here. Whatever, great post (rec'd)
Neil. I was already thinking that way, but had I been on the fence, well, your comment would’ve swayed me. Well put.
Where there’s a will… I want to be in it.
Because he'll be the 2nd string QB next year more than likely.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
I don't understand why Pike would be picked up. Nobody picked him in the first 5 rounds
and he didn’t show me anything last night, other than a terrific ballerina piroe..uh pirhue…, uh, spin move to avoid the rush.
Where there’s a will… I want to be in it.
That cracked me up
I got a mental image of Pike dancing away from the rush. SMH.
If you turn the sound up, you'll hear him yell, Ole'
better matador than QB.
Davidson not completely utilizing what he has...... again
If Cantwell has this cannon of an arm, Coach Davidson should have taken more chances at big gains. Play to your strengths coach! I’ll be glad when he’s gone!
It’s hard to get big gains when your offensive line is giving you no time to set up those long throws.
by SlayerGhaleon on Sep 3, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
But
Even in preseason last season, Cantwell had a LOT more time to be able to make the throws and the majority of them were under thrown. If he has such a cannon of an arm, why does he constantly under throw his receivers?
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Sep 3, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree overall
But Pike has to learn to watch out for his receivers! He almost got Petrowski and Gettis killed last night.
2nd String Defensive...
Made the 1st string Pittsburgh offensive look like chumps in the first few series. Those 2 sacks in the 1st 3 and out pumped me up!
I would love if we could all draw a line in the sand on Jeff Davidson for a second:
He’s become the easy option, and the path most traveled when someone wants to assert blame on the offense. But, has anyone here actually looked up the numbers?
Well… I decided I would. Total yards per game in John Fox era:
Under Davidson:
- 2009: 331 ypg
- 2008: 349 ypg
- 2007: 284 ypg (QB Carousel)
- 3 year average: 321.3 ypg
Without Davidson:
- 2002: 267 ypg
- 2003: 321 ypg
- 2004: 326 ypg
- 2005: 309 ypg
- 2006: 307 ypg
- 5 year average: 306 ypg
Like it or not, he’s superior to any OC we’ve had under John Fox. So for everyone calling for his head before the season begins I’d say temper your anger and be careful what you wish for
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Ya I remember in 2008
for the last few weeks of the regular season it seemed like we were scoring at will. And then the playoffs happened. But last season’s last few weeks were like that too. So maybe it just takes until the last four games of every season for him to really know what he’s doing…
42
331 YPG was good for 19th overall last year.
349 YPG in 2009 was good for 10th overall.
284 YPG in 2009 = 29th overall
That’s an average of the league’s 22nd ranked offense. I don’t think you can blame it on personnel, so even if it’s an improvement over past years, it still puts us in the bottom half of the league…
I think last year was highly dependent on personnel
Tough to get yards when Jake is stopping drives with picks consistently throughout the first half of the year.
With Moore at QB the offense averaged 350.8 yards per game
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Seems like we've disagreed a lot lately =)
Average total offense ranking 2002-2006 was 21.2 (including a rank of 31 in 2002). So the whole league has become more productive on offense. The Panthers have stayed the same or gotten slightly worse. I don’t think this is the best metric for gauging an offensive coordinator – I’m just saying.
Fair enough
I just think Davidson is given a bum rap a lot of the time because people are looking to blame someone, anyone.
First it was Fox, then it was Jake, now it’s Davidson. Sometimes the answer is far more complex than breaking it down to a simple metric, I agree with you. In the end all that matters is W’s and L’s and I think we could do far worse than having the 3rd ranked rushing attack in the NFL.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Its always been Davidson
Davidson deserves the blame. Bottom-half of the league in offense every single year. And you can’t give him a break for last year, Jake threw way more than he should have so that also falls on him. WR draft picks have played sub-par every single year, and thats a problem.
He does get credit for our run game, I’ll give him that.
You can quote that!!!!
“Jake threw way more than he should have so that also falls on him.”
This is the one part of the comment that I agree with.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Sep 3, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
It's more of a feast or famine situation with JD
You can throw all the averages out that you want, but the fact is that Davidson is going to coach ’em to 30 points, or coach ’em to 6. (Clearly this is a generalization, but his situational awareness is what people are criticizing).
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Sep 3, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I just look at an OC whose really only had one decent season to be judged by. 2007 he dealt with the QB carousel, 2009 he dealt with Jake’s meltdown and was without DeAngelo for
The one season where he has surety at the QB position was 2008 when the Panthers ranked 10th in the NFL in total offense.
I kind of look at it like an engineer who’s been told to build a blueprint with certain pieces available to him, then being told he can only have 1/2 of them. Yes, I know every team in the NFL deals with injury etc, but I can’t think of one that has had more turmoil at the QB position in the last three years than the Carolina Panthers.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I agree
which is why there have been some questions about his decision to pass, pass, pass punt on occasion.
The first Tampa game from last year comes to mind. Tied 21-21 in the fourth, Fox finally interjected and the Panthers ran the ball 10 of 11 plays, scored a TD, and won the game. In the replay, Fox can clearly be seen berating JD on the sideline prior to that drive.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Sep 3, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Was that par for the course or an isolated incident?
I don’t really get the feeling Fox and Davidson have tension, and if there was mistrust I doubt both would have returned. I know exactly the situation you’re referring to, but I see it like a QB and a WR having a spat on the sideline out of frustration.
Sure, they can disagree and there have been times I’ve questioned the play calling too… but ultimately I don’t think Davidson is completely clueless about how to run an offense.
He got pass happy last year, but in retrospect I wonder how much of that was Fox. Think about it, Fox has always been a ‘out of the frying pan, into the fire’ type guy when it comes to getting a player involved again after they struggled. Maybe it was this inductive method Fox thought could pull Jake out of his funk?
I say this because the pass happiness was equally out of characteristic for Davidson as it was Fox, the only variable was Delhomme’s performance. Notice how little we passed with Matt Moore.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Could be Foxy
When the OC, generally speaking, is in charge of play-calling, most or all of the blame is going to fall on him (at least the blame from the small segment of fans who know who Jeff Davidson is).
As you know, there are spats all the time on NFL sidelines. I’m sure it wasn’t the first and won’t be the last time Foxy gets in his ass. But this particular one was interesting. It was at the tail end of the pinnacle of the Panthers’ 2009 pass-happiness…(it was the 5th game, after the opener, and the Dallas game). It looked like Foxy had just had enough, and said F’ it, we’re gonna pound these bitches.
I did notice the MM imbalance, until we got into the MN and NYG game (by which time he’d won some confidence). I’m pretty sure that was Foxy, working with the same apprehension about Moore that kept him from making a QB change 5 weeks earlier than he was forced to.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Sep 3, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
We'll know soon enough
The only other thing I could say about this 2010 preseason was how stupid it was to have a team this much in flux be forced to play two teams they see in the regular season.
Obviously the Panthers had no interest in showing Baltimore or Pittsburgh any of their true playbook, so it becomes more difficult to evaluate the players.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Agreed
This was the most covert preseason that I can remember.
With the revolving door at WR.
The different combinations at DE and DT.
The 60/40 pass ratio.
The special teams musical chairs.
One positive thing we take away from the preseason is…we stayed pretty healthy.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Sep 3, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
One of the big reasons Fox chose not to play his starters.
Don’t show the Steelers anything they can plan against. Show them a completely different team of players, in fact. That’ll confuse ’em.
That and avoiding injuries to our starters.
I give Fox credit for being Foxy about the whole pre-season thing. Find out who can play and who can’t, and take no chances, and give no information to the enemy.
Won’t it be just delightful ( I sound so flighty, i love myself) when – unbeknownst to anybody who watches football – we drive down the field for a TD, on our first offensive series against the Giants? Whodathunkit, they’ll all say. We have established a stealth offense.
Check out a different stat
Check out Davidson’s points per game, and go back to his Cleveland days. The only time he did well was when he had Jake in full Jake mode, Smitty, Moose with some gas in the tank, and two stud running backs. Go find me an offensive coordinator who can’t win with that, and with the line play and lack of injuries we had that year. Hell, imagine what Henning would have produced with that lineup.
I never blamed Jake for our problems, by the way, and still don’t. He’s a good QB, not great but good. He didn’t decide to stop running in the playoffs, and he took all the heat for it. Then Davidson made the call to bring in a QB coach to fix his mechanics late in his career. Jake gets worse, takes full blame for that, is cut, and is now lighting it up Cleveland. Want to see a stat-line? Look at what he’s doing without Smitty, without a running game, but with a different offensive coordinator.
Last season Jake was mowed down several times early in game one, behind a line that was supposed to be one of the best. Isn’t that Davidson’s strength as an OC? Well, he took full blame for the turnovers again. And how did the OC react? Did he call plays designed to build his QB’s confidence up and get him back in the groove? Hell no, he was having him heave the ball down the field to the tune of 40 throws a game. Then he has a game where they barely throw it at all, and another where he’s calling it like he’s got Manning or Brees out there.
Name one thing Davidson did last year designed to get a struggling QB back on track. Other than having his QB coach fix a winning QB’s mechanics. Now to be fair, Jake may be done. It may just be his time, despite how he’s looking right now. And Davidson may be a genius. Or maybe they’re both great, but suck together.
But if you want to blame one or the other, try looking at their respective track records. Davidson does nothing in Cleveland, comes here, does nothing until Jake gets back, rides his talent for a year, gets involved, and then things go very, very south. Jake leads us to a Superbowl, an NFC Championship, has always thrown a lot of INTs, but he’s also always won more than he lost, and suddenly he sucks?
I don’t buy it. And we’re stuck with Davidson, so I’m sure hoping that I’m horribly wrong.
by Cyberjag on Sep 3, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
We'll just have to wait and see
I think if the organization had the same confidence in Davidson the fan base did he would have been gone already, like Henning was and like Trgo was.
This will be a put up or shut up year for Fox and Davidson.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
haha, I'm embarassed
I loved Henning. Liked Trgo a lot too, but like Meeks more.
Last year early I was really wishing that Trgo was still around, so there’s PLENTY of precedent for me being wrong.
I think Hurney has done a phenomenal job building the roster. If Davidson even approaches Meeks’ effectiveness with Moore as his QB we’re going to be in the playoffs several years running.
I agree that the downfield passing game can be frustrating
It will be like 3rd and 4, and instead of throwing a slant to pickup the first down, we’ll dial up a hail mary. It seems like Foxy’s attitude (and maybe Davidson’s too) is "if we are going to take the risk and pass, its gonna be toward the sideline, or 40 yards down-field.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Sep 3, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Other important factors to consider besides yards gained.
Play calling is the most obvious.
IMO, Davidson is predictable and has a knack for calling the wrong play at the wrong time. Plus, the offense has this killer run game, but JD tends to get pass happy way too early if the score is not in our favor.
Davidson might be able to draw up a great blocking scheme, but i have not been sufficiently impressed with his ability to micro manage an offense on a play-by-play basis, particularly in critical game situations..
For what it's worth,
my roommate (who admittedly doesn’t know much about football) watched the first quarter of the game with me last night and declared many times that the Steelers suck, especially after I explained to him that they were playing their starters against our backups. He’s not a homer either, he’s from Minnesota. A testament to our amazing defense I suppose.
42
I have to disagree...
I think this was an argument AGAINST an 18-game season. Yes, this was painful to watch, but imagine if there were only two preseason games, and this one had actually mattered!
Ya as painful as this was,
it made me long for next Sunday that much more. It would feel weird to be thinking about the Panthers’ 2nd game already this early.
42
it wouldn't be this early
The regular season would start around the same time and the Superbowl would be towards the end of February. There would be 2 preseason games and two inter-squad scrimmages. At least, this is what has been proposed so far.
Nah we needed this game to work out who to cut and who to keep.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
It's funny how strange life is. Even though I'm in the right country for once I didn't catch the Panthers game.
The highlights didn’t tell me anything about our players. So I’m kinda at a loss.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
wrong game to watch, unfortunately
But to give you an idea about #10, that was the best he’s looked so far.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Sep 3, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
According to our ESPN friend Pat Yasinskas,
Tyler Brayton might be a surprise cut tomorrow.
I doubt it personally, but maybe something to keep an eye on.
The reasoning behind it might be that the team had no idea Hardy and Brown were going to look so sharp. IDK.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
I don't see it
That would mean the Panthers are going to keep Eric Moore over Tyler Brayton… I just don’t see it.
Not to mention it would be a SERIOUS a***hole move to cut Brayton after he turned down other offers to come back to Carolina because they told him how much they needed him.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I agree, it's doubtful
But this is a “cutthroat, backstabbing business” as Brandon Jacobs would say about being benched (to which I would reply, simply, “play better”).
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Sep 3, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Brayton was awesome in the first game before he was injured
2 sacks in the first quarter…
I would hope he’d be given some lee-way for that like J-Stew and Smitty are getting for their injuries
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I have to think its just speculation
But Pat said it was something to keep an eye on.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Sep 3, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I agree 100%
I just hope he’s not correct. I’ve sent something to Gantt over Twitter to see if there’s any meat to it.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
nice
lemme know if he’s heard anything.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Sep 3, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
- Tiquan Underwood, cut on Super Bowl eve, is a Patriot again
- Woman at Giants Super Bowl parade can’t wait to see Mark Sanchez (video)
- Bradying is sweeping the nation (for the next 48 hours or so)
- Knowshon Moreno charged with DUI; has a license plate that reads ‘SAUCED’
- Giants fan who won $50,000 on Super Bowl safety will donate winnings to charity
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
