The Struggles of Panthers Edwards Not Unprecedented in Carolina
by NMHesq on Aug 26, 2010 9:41 AM EDT
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Longtime lurker first time poster.
After the Panthers’ loss to the Jets many people have jumped off the Edwards bandwagon as quickly as many hopped on when various local new organizations started the Edwards hype. After the draft, and due to their respective sizes, Edwards has been hyped to be the future Agent 89 as much as LaFell has been hyped to be the next Moose.
Post Jets game, many negative comments have been made about Edwards being a bust and the Panthers having made a mistake. There are also many comments discussing the fact that we won’t know the wisdom of the trade and pick of Edwards for some time. I tend to fall in the later category.
The Jets game certainly gives reason for concern but it is not unprecedented....learn why after the jump...
On September 30, 2001, the 1-1 Panthers hosted Green Bay and held a half time lead 7-6. A rookie punt returner proceeded to fumble two consecutive kick returns in the 3rd quarter of the game giving the Packers extremely good field position which turned into two touchdowns. This sucked the life out of the Panthers that day and they went on to lose the game 28-7. The rookie returner was pulled from the game and return duties were given to Isaac Byrd and Richard Huntley.
It should be clear to all reading this post that the rookie in question was Steve Smith. The differences between the 2001 Packers game and the 2010 Jets preseason game are that the 2001 rookie had taken the first kickoff of the first game that year to the house. Therefore the fan base and team had more confidence in him. The other difference that we now know is that Steve Smith is a bad ass with all the confidence in the world. Therefore he was able to bounce back easily from a bad day.
Hopefully Edwards will be able to gain confidence in his abilities as a returner or in some other useful area for the team. Clearly the Panthers see something in the kid and I still trust their judgment. I would be surprised if he does not get another chance this weekend. I am glad the team does not give up on a player after one bad game. Clearly it happens to the best, a/k/a Steve Smith. Who knows what type of player Edwards will end up being. I, for one, will reserve judgment for some time.
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Excellent perspective.
I agree wholly that we should reserve some judgment, and that there is a eerie similarity between Armanti’s game against the Jets and Smitty in 2001.
You’re right though, Smitty built up a considerable cache of good will towards him before that game in September, which made it much easier to forget.
I went back to look at how Smith did his first preseason games and here was the result:
Game 1: Smith had one rushing attempt on a reverse that went for 52 yards and a TD, he also returned 2 punts for 17 yards. No receptions.
Game 2: 3 receptions, 36 yards long of 20. 2 KR for 42 yards
Game 3: 2 receptions, 19 yards. Long of 10. 22 yard PR
Game 4: Returned a kick for a TD, 101 yards.
There were already flashes of big plays and brilliance in Steve Smith’s 1st preseason. All it will take is Armanti to break a couple and he’ll win over the fans in time.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Where do you get your stats?
I notice that many posters here do better research than my staff at work. I would like to know where one finds old statistics like this so I can be more thorough in the future. Thanks for the kind words.
I went to NFL.com whose gamelogs just so happen to go back to 2001 (thats the furthest you can go). I pulled the box scores from all four games and voila.
Pro Football Reference.com is another really good resource I use.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I'm still on the Edwards bandwagon.....
and hoping that he can contribute in the return game this season. The Panthers would be lethal if they could develop a decent punt return game. I know its alot to ask of Edwards, but if he could become that guy this season, forget about it…..This defense and short fields with this run game…the sky’s the limit. Edwards seems like a great kid with great potential and I’m glad the Panthers chose him because he’s the kind of guy thats fun to root for.
Way to keep it real NMHesq...amd Welcome to posting on the blog!
So maybe Edwards will take one to the house and make you look like Nostradamus!
Actually if you don't mind I'm going to edit the title and go front page
I like it. BTW, I only edit titles to make them more search engine friendly
This is everything I have been saying (or trying to say) to the doubters
Steve Smith still of course had the advantage of playing the position in college. Armanti does not. Therefore, I don’t think it is realistic to expect any kind of break out at all this year.
Be patient Panther fans… you’ve got a good one. Just let him develop.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
Also....
…after watching the games, that poor guy isn’t getting that much protection. If you have no protection, no matter who you are, you’re not breaking a long return. Armanti gets swarmed so fast it hurts to watch. I do have faith that it will get better. I’m a strong believer that something’s just take longer than others, and meshing together as a special teams unit can be difficult, due to the chaotic nature of the play as it develops.
A lot of players stink their rookie years.
First years mean nothing as far as I’m concerned. Since the draft pick used to get him doesn’t kick in ‘til next year, I don’t think he has to start producing ’til the 2012 season. However, in 2012 he needs to be at least a standout slot receiver or the pick was too much to give up.
stuff 'bout stuff.
Kickoff returns & Reverses
I really want to see Armanti get his chance to return Kickoffs rather than punts, as well as have the ball in his hands in the backfield — hopefully this preseason.
I have done bothKR and PR in my football career, and my anecdotal experience was that KR duty was way easier than PR duty. Easier to catch more room and time to read the field and make your cuts.
Look at the stats James provides: The Panthers had Steve smith returning punts and kick offs, plus they gave him a reverse in his first game. (They did call a reverse for LaFell instead of Armanti in the Ravens game? That seemed odd to me, btw.)
Armanti’s QB experience, where he was an accomplished rusher as well as passer, should give him an advantage running reverses and making cuts in the backfield.
Maybe the team is doing as some have suggested and keeping their playbook close to their vest — knowing that Armanti can be a play maker in unique ways they don’t want to tip off the NFL too soon. Probably not, but i hope they will use him in a wider variety of ways than simply as a WR and wannabe PR.
Here's the problem with the Reverse...
If you have a receiver who is no threat to catch the ball, when he goes for the reverse it’s easy to sniff out the play. Even the reverses to Smith only worked out a handful of times, just like the smoke route to Smith. Once teams clue into what’s going on, the play is no longer effective.
I would say that Armanti would be better with the smoke route, but in all honesty I can’t see that working either. The smoke route only works when the CBs are afraid of the deep threat and are playing soft. And seriously, when was the last time Smith got decent yardage (more than 5 yards) off a Smoke pass? Most of the time, defenders are right there as he catches the ball to hammer him because they know to be prepared for it. Armanti would be no different.
Armanti needs to hone his core skillset as a WR/KR before we throw anything else at him.
The reverse to LaFell worked pretty well against the Ravens
Only 6 yard gain I know, but Edwards has much more speed.
I think it’s a little harsh saying that Armanti is ‘no threat to catch the ball’. Given how much he’s been on the field I don’t think teams would immediately key on it being a reverse.
That being said, we can’t rely on a trick play like a reverse that can be utilized at most every other game. I agree that he needs to be working on regular WR duties before throwing him into gadgets.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
That was my main point though. Until he establishes himself as a WR, these gimmicky trick plays aren’t really going to produce much when they’re only good for maybe one or two plays a game.
The difference is.....
How many WR’s can throw a spiral with great accuracy?
If you give the ball to Armanti on a reverse or lateral pass, then the D better not cheat up go get him, because unlike 99% of WR’s Edwards would be a dangerous passing threat too — if given that chance.
Sigh...
No, that would require taking time to practice the route timing, blocking schemes, and just about everything else associated with a play that will, at most, be used once or twice a game. Time better served making him into a well polished and dependable receiver.
And I’m sorry, but this isn’t college anymore. Just because Armanti had success as a QB in college doesn’t mean it will translate to success at the pro level in that position. The list of examples of this is a mile long. You’re essentially asking him to become a Michael Vick-esque player for one specific type of play.
Not if it's just that play. Or that package.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
I think his point is that he has the arm to do it
He has plenty of QB experience. All the pro scouts were impressed with his QB performance during private workouts and of course he collegiate career. He would indeed be throwing a better pass than probably 99% of WRs in the league. Julian Edelman and Antwaan Randle El being the only other ones I could think of that probably could give it just as good an effort.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
Armanti's receptions
Check the preseason stats and who has more receptions.
NEW PERSON!!!!
Hey new person!!
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Aug 30, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Great Post!!
Glad someone brought this little known fact up! I would love to see AE have an outstanding rookie year, but I think we all can agree that it might be asking to much, too soon! After reviewing Smitty’s stats at NFL.com, I would be surprised if AE even started to become an average starting wideout until the 2012 season. Steve Smith didn’t put it all together until 2002 and his first season to break 1,000 yards wasn’t until he was in his third year. Not sure how many game minutes he got in in those years, but he started 13 and 11 games respectively in the 2002 and 2003 seasons.
It is hard to resist the urge to put too much stock into preseason games
It happens every year. Last preseason, If Mike Goodson could hold onto the ball, he was going to be the next Gale Sayers. Overreaction is easier and comes quite naturally when people have invested emotional stock into something.
Nothing is ever as good or as bad as we think. I’ll wait until Sept. to start making judgments. If we have another Philly-esque season opener, then I’ll start to worry.
Armanti will be find. Fox will find a way for him to contribute. If its not returning kicks, or its not as a receiver, then he may find his niche as a option/wildcat QB for us.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
This is exactly what I'm talking about....
What value does he have for us as a wildcat option? Again, if he’s on the field and he can’t produce as a WR, as a defense you know to be looking for the wildcat and be prepared to play against it. The defense will make you prove he’s a legitimate threat at WR before they give any serious consideration to him.
Basically, you’re not fooling anyone by having someone on the field who only has value as a gimmick. It’s like tacking a neon sign that says, “Look at me! I’m here to be the Wildcat guy!” if that’s all he is good for.
producing as a receiver won't help him hide our wildcat formation...
As soon as he lines up under center they’re going to know what we’re doing. What the defense won’t know is if he’s going to run it, dump it off to D-Lo (Stewart/Fiametta) or pass it. He would basically be Micheal Vick in that situation, probably running it more often than not.
Founding Member of the Unofficial LaFan Club, #11 Brandon LaFell
by John Chilton on Aug 26, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Where are you getting this idea from?
if he’s on the field and he can’t produce as a WR
So far Edward has 4 receptions for 32 yards. Two first down catches of 13+ yards.
These numbers don’t make him a Pro Bowl WR, but they certainly contradict the notion that you(and others) are insinuating; that Armanti is not capable of producing at WR.
Don't take what I said out of context.
Someone could say the sky is red at sunset, but if you only focus on half of what they say, you’ll think their an idiot that can’t realize the sky is blue.
I never said that he wasn’t going to be a good WR. I never said I thought he was doing a bad job at WR. I’m saying that trying to install a trick play for someone at a new position that has only limited use is a waste of time currently.
sky is red
C’mon Man! Its obviously blue. ; )
but good point.
"The game of life is a lot like football. You have to tackle your problems, block your fears, and score your points when you get the opportunity." - Lewis Grizzard
by ThePanthers! on Aug 26, 2010 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really a good point at all.
Becasue i’m not taking ace’s comments out of context.
He has consistenly said through this post that Armanti cannot produce as a WR. Then, when the facts presented verify otherwise he backpedaled and tried to say i was taking his words out of context.
If you have a receiver who is no threat to catch the ball
if he’s on the field and he can’t produce as a WR
If Ace is not saying Edwards can’t play WR then what is he saying?
Then you're missing the point entirely
I’m saying that as a player he needs time to develop the position that we most need him to play in right now. Taking time away from that development at this point is only going to hurt us more in the long term.
Also, I never came out and said “Edwards can’t produce as a WR” although I’m sure that is easy to overlook. Everything I said in this discussion is qualified with a big fat if. So on the other hand, if Armanti shows that he is a capable WR, then no, I don’t have a problem with drawing up a gadget play for him.
But… can we at least get to the “capable WR” part first? I don’t know if he is right now or not. I’m assuming not because he hasn’t started with the 1s (2s too? I can’t honestly remember) yet which puts him at best #5 on the depth chart behind Smith, Jarret, LaFells, and Moore. You could even argue he’s behind Wallace Wright.
Let’s not confuse what I think about things for right now with what I think about things in the future. When Armanti has made the full transition to WR, then I have no problem working out gadgets for him.
At this point...
Running a play for Armanti that utilizes his instincts (running the ball) would be helpful to his confidence (and subsequently his development). He could probably use a confidence booster at the moment.
I would much rather have seen Armanti take that reverse a couple of games back. It would have been interesting to see what he would have done with a full head of steam and hopefully a little open field.
I was agreeing with his other point
I’m saying that trying to install a trick play for someone at a new position that has only limited use is a waste of time currently.
And he is right. If Edwards has the potential to be a every down receiver and a solid one at that, then why not spend all the time helping him reach that goal. When that goal is achieved do all the trick plays you want, but again you cant use trick plays more then once or twice but a solid receiver will help you every play either by catching, blocking or taking some coverage away.
"The game of life is a lot like football. You have to tackle your problems, block your fears, and score your points when you get the opportunity." - Lewis Grizzard
by ThePanthers! on Aug 27, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Definitely don't agree with this part:
trying to install a trick play for someone at a new position that has only limited use is a waste of time currently.
If the team wants to find a niche for him, why not explore ALL options? He’s already learning a new position.
He mastered the QB position in college and obviosly has a skill set to prove it. Why NOT utilize it?
Read this after my above post...
But I would say we shouldnt let him really do a bunch of other things because we are trying to make him a receiver, not a QB. He doesnt need his QB skills when it comes to being a WR (Except maybe the coverage reading part). Its already hard enough for WR to adapt to the NFL when they play the position in college, so a guy who didnt play WR in college needs to spend as much time working on receiving as he can until he gets used to that position.
"The game of life is a lot like football. You have to tackle your problems, block your fears, and score your points when you get the opportunity." - Lewis Grizzard
by ThePanthers! on Aug 27, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
To use Armanti Edwards as you suggest...
would be an extreme waste of uniquely talented football player.
If the Panthers strictly wanted an every-down receiver (something Edwards should be able do and then some), then why not take Jacoby Ford or some other true wideout return specilaist. Selecting a player like Armanti Edwards ought to indicate that they want to use him in a variety of ways, not strictly as an every-down WR.
I understand that but
the Panthers did draft him hoping he would become an every-down WR, that much we agree on. I just feel that they also wouldnt want Edwards to take 3+ years to develop into that threat, and if he isnt focusing on only being a WR then I think its going to take longer than they want. Honestly I feel they drafted Edwards because of his greater potential then some of the more polished receivers; not for his QB skills or his ability to play in the wildcat.
"The game of life is a lot like football. You have to tackle your problems, block your fears, and score your points when you get the opportunity." - Lewis Grizzard
by ThePanthers! on Aug 27, 2010 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
as long as i have blood in my veins, i shall overreact and respond accordingly
i feel that if you’re a 3rd round pick or higher, you should at least contribute somewhere (I know there are flaws in this logic but it is my opinion)
Loved your post...
and you stats., my sentiments as well. I moved to NC in 2001 and started following the Panthers that winter. I wasn’t here for draft or training camp, so my thoughts all season were “who is this guy?” I couldn’t figure out if he was lighting in a small body or he would take years to develop. Steve Smith, along with Jerry Richardson , is a big part of why the Panthers are so dear to my heart. Sometimes I feel like smacking him upside the head and other times he is a source of pride and joy watching him. I think he has finally matured into a solid role model for younger players. Armanti will, I feel, have as much impact as Smitty has in future years. He is a PROJECT. I’ve never had a work or home project that only lasted 2 weeks. Let’s give him a break and be patient with him and all the new guys.
Watching Pats vs Rams wish we could of got Tate last year. He would of been a home town guy and is an excellent return man. He was working on becoming the all time leader in college football history before his injury at UNC. He is healthy this year and was torching the rams early on. He is a solid WR too. Hoping Armani can play that well Saturday vs the Titans. fingers crossed
"I’m the UFC heavyweight champion and I will be until the day I decide I don’t want to be. And that isn’t anytime soon." - Brock Lesnar
No doubt!
All we hear now is Nicks this and Nicks that. Any true Tarheel fan knows that Nicks was invisible at UNC until Tate got hurt. I think he will blow it up for the Pats for a long time.
Ya no doubt ive seen Tate first hand. Played on the same field. The guy has electric speed and good hands. Pats got a steal with him. If it wasn’t for the Leg Injury he would of been a 1st round pick and people would be asking Nicks Who?
"I’m the UFC heavyweight champion and I will be until the day I decide I don’t want to be. And that isn’t anytime soon." - Brock Lesnar
Hakeem Nicks & Brandon Tate
Rules and Regulations of the Game: 89, Bottom Line
by John Chilton on Aug 27, 2010 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I do have to say,
that I’ve never seen Brandon Tate make a catch like this one…..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2ikDsi-DJA
Ready for 2010 football already!!!
by Flowing Willow on Aug 28, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Great 1st post!
And a rec to boot for noting the similarities between Edward’s and Smitty’s humble beginnings. As long as Armanti has a short term memory for mistakes in the preseason (as any player should), and he’s constantly making strides with learning a new position, he should be fine in the long run.
It’s not very common that a WR makes a heavy impact on his team the first year. AE is hamstrung because he’s being asked to do things he didn’t do in college. He’s learning how to do it… it would have been nice if he could have at least done it in college instead of NFL speed but there’s nothing that can be done about that except keep trying to give him the necessary reps to improve at what he does.
I agree with the basic premise.
I think Edwards should be given more oppurtunities at punt return, as well as kickoffs. Although has he practiced catching KO’s? That should be considered. I’d also love to see a trick play this preseason with Edwards, that’s a whole facet of his game that we can’t just throw out and a way to make him contribute immediately, as a third round pick should. Do the Broncos not utilize Tebow’s rushing ability? We shouldn’t keep Edwards solely a receiver.
Ready for 2010 football already!!!
by Flowing Willow on Aug 28, 2010 12:35 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
You can't discount his passing yards
Even if it is FCS. I mean really, he has a sick arm for a 5-11 guy.
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