Carolina Panthers: ESPN Top Under-25 Talent
by bmoyer on Jul 14, 2010 4:45 PM EDT
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PrintIn case you haven't heard of Football Outsiders, they do great statistics (DVOA) adjusting statistics offensively and defensively based on what plays are being called, personnel on the field and quality of the opponent. Their statistics are top notch and fairly innovative to compared to some of the other stuff that's out there. Bill Barnwell of Football Outsiders (FO), wrote an article grading teams based on the quality of players aged 25 and under. The Panthers ranking shouldn't surprise anyone here at CSR, but may be a surprise to the national media. See his ranking and reasoning after the jump.
You need to be an ESPN insider to read the entire article, but here's the section about the Panthers:
2010 NFL Organizational Rankings show Houston Texans with top young talent. (ESPN.com)
2. Carolina Panthers There are currently 81 players on the Panthers roster, 58 of whom are either 25 or younger. That's a sign of how salary cap issues and a veteran roster forced the team to throw a lot of young talent at the wall and see what sticks. The reality, though, is that the Panthers have both quality and quantity. Their best young player, of course, is middle linebacker Jon Beason, who deserves to be in the conversations about the league's best linebackers. No middle linebacker -- not even Patrick Willis -- is better in coverage. Carolina had the league's second-ranked pass defense last year by Football Outsiders numbers, and its oldest starter in the secondary is 27-year-old Chris Gamble. He's the only one of their top six defensive backs older than 25. Defensive end Charles Johnson is 24, and by the end of the year, he'll be starting across from 2009 second-rounder Everette Brown, who is 22. The offense, though, is Carolina's more impressive young unit. Even without including Matt Moore, who turns 26 in August, there's serious talent to be had. The star is halfback Jonathan Stewart, who is every bit the back DeAngelo Williams is, but struggles to stay healthy. The offensive line opening holes for Stewart and Williams is among the league's best, and it features two elite young players in center Ryan Kalil and right tackle Jeff Otah. This year, they'll be joined by guard Geoff Schwartz, who made it to our Top 25 Prospects list and profiles as another excellent masher in the running game. They've even got a viable receiving prospect in tight end Gary Barnidge. With Moore, Jimmy Clausen, and Tony Pike on the roster, they've got three guys to compete for the long-term answer at QB.
That's right, the Panthers ranked behind only the Houstan Texans. The two main things I noticed that I might say I disagree with are the bit about Stewart struggling to stay healthy and the omission of Hunter Cantwell in the list of young QB's.
For what it's worth, the other NFC South teams were ranked:
30) Tampa Bay
Other than that, great article and great ranking. Go Panthers!
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Let’s hope the front office doesn’t screw this up in the near future by failing to resign Coach Fox and his staff. With a solid nucleus of young talent and consistency within the coaching staff and the direction they’re taking the team, we could be set for years of prosperity. Maybe that includes a run (or 3) at a championship
Take the world as it is, not as it ought to be.
I agree with this
At least the part about Fox. Fox and Hurney seem to have a very good plan in place and I’m excited to see where it takes us.
Tampa Bay is 30?
I don’t follow other teams nearly as close as Carolina, but isn’t their team supposedly young and talented too?
stuff 'bout stuff.
They’re still in the middle of their rebuild. Another draft or two and they’ll likely move up.
by SlayerGhaleon on Jul 14, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
30. Tampa Bay Buccaneers
General manager Mark Dominik is just beginning the process of rebuilding an organization that was all but gutted when he took over a year ago. The 2006-2008 drafts under Jon Gruden and Bruce Allen were dismal, led by 2007 fourth-overall pick Gaines Adams, who was traded to the Chicago Bears last year and then tragically passed away this offseason. 2008 first-rounder Aqib Talib has shown flashes of brilliance at corner, but the organization will only move forward if Dominik’s picks start to develop into elite players — notably, quarterback Josh Freeman and defensive tackle Gerald McCoy.
ERL put up a Fanpost on this 3 hours ago.
Gary Barnidge didn’t write it – he was the subject.
Different article.
He quoted it in the comments section, but I figured some people might miss it there. I fixed author’s name – brain fart (thanks for the heads up).
Wrong
No middle linebacker — not even Patrick Willis — is better in coverage.
Thrown at Receptions % caught Opp QB rating
Jon Beason 50 38 76.0% 79.3
Patrick Willis 88 68 77.3% 88.3
Jonathan Vilma 47 30 63.8% 57.2
Paul Posluszny 31 20 64.5% 47.4
"We've got 27 ways to add up to 11 (players on the field). I came up with another one last night." -- Greg Williams
Gaaaah format fail
Jon Beason was thrown at 50 times allowing 38 receptions for a completion percentage of 76.0% and the rating of QBs against his coverage was 79.3
etc.
They are right saying Beason was better than Willis, but not better than any other middle linebacker.
"We've got 27 ways to add up to 11 (players on the field). I came up with another one last night." -- Greg Williams
Where'd you get all that from?
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Jul 14, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions
"We've got 27 ways to add up to 11 (players on the field). I came up with another one last night." -- Greg Williams
Oh yeah, profootballfocus, that explains it. I appreciate the effort, but I’m going to have to ignore all of that.
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Jul 14, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure, we can't let facts get in the way
"We've got 27 ways to add up to 11 (players on the field). I came up with another one last night." -- Greg Williams
It’s just the site man. Every time I hear a stat from that site, it’s wrong. I don’t know who compiles those things, or what criteria they use, but they do a very bad job. Now, I don’t know for certain this particular stat is wrong, but with the reputation of that site I just have to dismiss it.
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Jul 14, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn't use any of their subjective rankings, just the raw data
"We've got 27 ways to add up to 11 (players on the field). I came up with another one last night." -- Greg Williams
Their raw data sucks. It sucks. It’s crap. I don’t know how else to tell you lol. Their stats are messed up through and through. It’s all inaccurate garbage.
Like I said, I don’t know for sure this particular one is wrong, but let’s look at it real quick from a hypothetical perspective. Beason had 7 pass deflections last year according to NFL.com. PFF said 38 of 50 passes that came his way were completions. That means only 5 of 50 were dropped or thrown where the receiver couldn’t get it. That, to me, is a highly unlikely scenario.
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Jul 14, 2010 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, no.
Interceptions aren’t counted as pass deflections, so if you add his 3 picks then only 2 of 50 were dropped or thrown off target. That’s entirely implausible. So, you see what I mean?
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Jul 14, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Then find a site you trust that has
the number of times they were targeted and the number of completions. Then come back and use that to argue with.
"We've got 27 ways to add up to 11 (players on the field). I came up with another one last night." -- Greg Williams
Sorry, don't know of one.
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Jul 14, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
The other difference is...
Beason plays 4-3, willis 3-4. The Niners have a second really good inside linebacker in takeo spikes, so willis theoretically has less open space to cover. theoretically
Yet, somehow, he got 38 more passes thrown his way, according to PFF. I don’t know dudes, seems kind of off. But, maybe I’m wrong and those stats are perfectly fine. I didn’t take the time to compile my own, so I don’t know.
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Jul 14, 2010 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, I think it’s libelous, since I wrote it. However, the site is very inaccurate, so it’s not libelous or slanderous. Yet, it was rude and cruel, so I shouldn’t have said it anyway, and I apologize to any PFF contributors who read this page.
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Jul 14, 2010 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Slanderous of you to say it, as I wrote...
libelous of you to write it.
(You may have thought I just read your post, but I heard you with my own ears. LOL)
Wrong
No middle linebacker — not even Patrick Willis — is better in coverage.Thrown at Receptions % caught Opp QB rating
Jon Beason 50 38 76.0% 79.3
Patrick Willis 88 68 77.3% 88.3
Jonathan Vilma 47 30 63.8% 57.2
Paul Posluszny 31 20 64.5% 47.4
"We've got 27 ways to add up to 11 (players on the field). I came up with another one last night." -- Greg Williams
If u say Vilma is a better LB Ya' mo throw up
Pro Bowl voting aside, Vilma is not on the same level.
Do or do not. There is no try.
Probably the same guy who thinks Colston is better than Steve Smith
A NO homer
Do or do not. There is no try.
Last year their were 21 middle linebackers with better coverage numbers than Beason
if you throw out the ones who played less than 1000 downs, there were 7 with better coverage ratings.
This is just coverage ratings, not run stopping. I put Vilma in there as an example, I didn’t feel like listing all 21. But if you want to compare Beason to Vilma, I would be happy to, it is a few more weeks till training camp starts and I don’t have anything better to do.
And now a word from one of our sponsors "Preparation H, when discomfort sneaks between your cheeks, Preparation H"
I'm not sure a comparison is much of a comparison.
Vilma does not stand out on tape, for starters. That is really the beginning of my analysis.
Do or do not. There is no try.
Nobody had more picks (3), his YPC was low (8.1), plus he had 121 tackles and 3 sacks.
Find someone with overall better numbers, then we’ll talk.
I can resist everything except temptation. - Oscar Wilde
BTW, those are Beason's numbers, not Vilma's (of course)
I can resist everything except temptation. - Oscar Wilde
Interceptions Vilma 3 Beason 3 = tie
AVG YPC Vilma 10.7 Beason 8.1 = Beason
Tackles V 86 B 121 = Beason
tackle assists V 12 B 12 = tie
Missed tackles V 10 B 11 = Vilma
sacks V 2 B 3 = Beason
QB HIT V 9 B 1 = Vilma
QB Pressure V 7 B 2 = Vilma
Td allowed in coverage Vilma 0 Beason 2 = Vilma
Score: Vilma 4, Beason 3, tie 2.
Ladies and gentlemen we have a winner, Jonathan Vilma. Woohoo! Put that in your pipe and smoke it. hehe
And now a word from one of our sponsors "Preparation H, when discomfort sneaks between your cheeks, Preparation H"
We could do this all day ...
Ratio missed tackles/total tackles V 11% B 9% = Beason
Avg ypc V 10.7 B 8.1 = Beason
Stops V 44 B 66 = Beason
Age V 28 B 25 = Beason
Whoops, after further review, Beason wins easily.
Dude, really, don’t even try to say Vilma > Beason. Even idjit writers know better that that, and I’m sure most Saints fans would agree.
I can resist everything except temptation. - Oscar Wilde
yep
% caught V 63.8 B 76.0 = Vilma
YAC V 166 B 193 = Vilma
Passes Defensed V 5 B 3 = Vilma
Now they are tied.
And now a word from one of our sponsors "Preparation H, when discomfort sneaks between your cheeks, Preparation H"
OMG
Are you guys seriously having a profootballfocus stat war? Why not just throw paper balls at each other. Having a stat war from that site is as good as randomly making up numbers and spouting them out.
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Jul 16, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Beason: Captain of the 8th rated defense
Vilma: Captain of the 25th rated defense
As for your sacks, hits, and pressure stats, clearly Gregg Williams is going to blitz his Mike linebacker much more often than Meeks.
Your first two comparables tell the whole story…Beason allowed 2 less yards per completion, and accumulated 35 more tackles. The rest of the stats are not tell-tale for a LB.
Do or do not. There is no try.
by ERL on Jul 16, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I never said Vilma was a better overall ILB
neither one of them are chopped liver. I gave stats proving that there were better cover ILBs in the league last year.
Bottom line: Beason was better against run, Vilma was better against pass. I don’t think either team would trade the one they have for the other, would probably love to have both though.
Beason is moving to OLB this year anyway
And now a word from one of our sponsors "Preparation H, when discomfort sneaks between your cheeks, Preparation H"
Vilma is not better than Beason in coverage.
Those stats are wrong. I already proved that, and told you profootballfocus is inaccurate to the extreme.
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Jul 16, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
ok, Beason is not better than Vilma against the run
If the stats are not right because you said so then Vilma is better because I said so.
Sounds stupid right?
And now a word from one of our sponsors "Preparation H, when discomfort sneaks between your cheeks, Preparation H"
I like Vilma's game
But Beason is a special player. If Beason is Batman, Vilma is…
Do or do not. There is no try.
should we start arguing who is the better superhero instead?
I like wolverene
And now a word from one of our sponsors "Preparation H, when discomfort sneaks between your cheeks, Preparation H"
Wolverine would own Spider-Man.
Wolverine is like … almost indestructable.
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Jul 16, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's check their stats
on prosuperherofocus.com…
I definitely think Spiderman’s got him in baddies neutralized per day, although Wolverine clearly has the edge in dismemberment.
Wolverine goes up against stiffer competition, like Apocalypse and Magneto. Spider-Man has guys like Dr. Octopus and Rhino for goodness sakes. It’s a whole different league.
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Jul 16, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Wolverine faced the Mutant Champion...
Jean Gray, love of his life. And he killed her because that’s what it took to win. Do you really think Spidey would hurt a hair on MJ’s head just to save the world. I don’t think he’s got the onions. However, he would make a good free safety.
I can resist everything except temptation. - Oscar Wilde
No wayz jack.
Defensive tackle. He can lift like …. 10 to 20 tons, and has superhuman reflexes. Even if he doesn’t just get a sack fumble every play, he can jump and intercept the ball before it reaches the line of scrimmage.
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Jul 16, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I was thinking about using...
The Hulk and The Thing as DTs, but I’d definitely call the safety blitz a lot w/ Spidey.
I can resist everything except temptation. - Oscar Wilde
Who are you playing that you need to call a safety blitz with Spider-Man when you have Hulk and the Thing as defensive tackles? A team of 11 mobile mountains??
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Jul 16, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I'm playing ...
the DC (comics) Superheros. Superman at running back is a load to bring down.
I can resist everything except temptation. - Oscar Wilde
Yeah, lol.
Superman has that power-speed combo that teams covet, kind of like a better Jonathan Stewart.
A guy like Nightcrawler could just teleport to the endzone though.
However, I think the MVP of any team would have to be Psi-Lord. He could take control of others’ minds and make them fumble or run the other way. Or, he could just rearrange reality altogether, defying the law of physics. He could turn Superman into a popsicle if he wanted. And, if by some fluke his team actually lost, he has enough energy to just blast the planet apart, so no one can ever prove anything.
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Jul 17, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
By league rules, use of psionic energy
is a 15 yard personal foul. I thought everybody knew that. LOL
I can resist everything except temptation. - Oscar Wilde
Ah well, poop. I pick Nighcrawler then. =(
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Jul 17, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
We have to come to some agreement...
about rules, Blade. I mean, teleportation is just a blatant violation of the spirit of the game. Also, there should be a “ceiling” at say 25 feet up, eliminating high-flying, leaping, or stretching (if you’re Mr. Fantastic).
All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner.
Red Skelton
You’re breakin’ my balls man.
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Jul 17, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
lol
cartman…
I am an optimist. It does not seem too much use being anything else.
~Winston Churchill
Dwayne Jarret is not a bust!
Hey Doc,
Respect for not pulling out the “World Champs” card in a difficult debate. Some of your Saint Brethren run out of anything else to say, and quickly pull that one out.
Don’t get me wrong, its a pretty f’n sweet card to have.
Do or do not. There is no try.
I had to smack my own hand a couple of times...lol
And now a word from one of our sponsors "Preparation H, when discomfort sneaks between your cheeks, Preparation H"
But yeah, I always hated that when other fans would do it to the Saints fans.
And now a word from one of our sponsors "Preparation H, when discomfort sneaks between your cheeks, Preparation H"
Absolutely right, ERL. I tried to find a number for blitzes, but couldn't.
I can resist everything except temptation. - Oscar Wilde
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