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A Defensive Experiment For The Panthers




We all know that the Panthers have made drastic changes in their defensive front over the last few seasons.  Guys like Julius Peppers, Kris Jenkins, and Maake Kemoeatu are gone.  What remains of a formerly daunting front four is a collection of guys most football fans wouldn’t recognize.  Of course, names don’t equate to production, but the off-season predictions have decided that defensive line is the biggest weakness of the Panthers.  I would agree to an extent.  No one knows what player may breakout and become a force on the line.  But as it stands now, Carolina has at best an average defensive line.


The linebackers are THE strength of Carolina's defensive front.  Guys like Thomas Davis and Jon Beason are great linebackers and young guys like Dan Conner and Eric Norwood have tremendous upside.  The loss of Thomas Davis will affect the solidity of the linebacking core, but overall it is still a strong unit.

Looking at this situation brings a question that I think Panthers fans should discuss.  Given the strengths and weaknesses of this defensive front, why don’t the Panthers experiment with the 3-4 defense as opposed to the 4-3 defense?  The 3-4 defense is geared toward linebackers more than defensive linemen and would be better at masking some of the deficiencies of the defensive line.  But before we begin answering, let’s look at some of the basics of each defense and how Carolina’s personnel could fit.

Differences

There is obviously a difference in formation, but there are differences in player assignments and player objectives as well.  In the 4-3 defense, defensive tackles have gap penetration assignments.  They need to be athletic enough to get up field and disrupt in the back field.  The 4-3 scheme obviously has two tackles and they are responsible for two gaps.  In the 3-4, there is only one tackle and his job is to occupy two interior linemen, typically the center and a guard.  Defensive ends in the 4-3 are the primary pass rushers.  They need to be dynamic and athletic to get by the offensive tackle and create pressure.  The pressure in the 3-4 comes from linebackers and the ends occupy two linemen, a guard and tackle usually, to let the linebackers rush.  The linebackers in the 4-3 need to be fast and decent in coverage.  In the 3-4, linebackers need coverage ability, but also need to rush the passer.  The inside linebackers in both schemes need to be able tacklers and solid against the run.  However the 3-4 inside linebacker needs to be strong to shed blocks from interior linemen that a 4-3 DT would normally occupy.  The outside linebackers in the 3-4 are typically bigger than their 4-3 counterparts because they pass rush and need to be stronger and bigger in order to take on offensive tackles.

To boil it down, the linebackers in the 3-4 scheme are the playmakers.  Defensive linemen in the 3-4 occupy blockers and occasionally create pressure.  The defensive line in the 4-3 is the big deal and the linebackers augment them.

So how would Carolina look in a 3-4?

Defensive Line

At the nose tackle, Carolina could put two guys there: Tank Tyler and Louis Leonard.  Leonard (6’4” 325) is your standard huge space-eating NT.  Tyler is a smaller version, but still has decent NT size at 6’2” 306.  Both guys can eat up interior blockers.  At defensive end, you could put Hayden and Brayton.  Brayton (6’6” 280) has the ideal height but may need to add 10-15 lbs to play 3-4 end.  Hayden (6’4” 292) has nearly ideal size to play 3-4 end.  Since these guys are not used to the 3-4, it would take time to learn position placement, but they should be adequate enough to eat up blocks and allow Carolina’s linebackers to make plays.

Inside Linebacker

Beason is the star of the linebacking core.  He is a 3-down linebacker that makes plays.  He is ideally a 4-3 linebacker based on his size and speed (6’0” 237).  However, he is too small to play outside linebacker in a 3-4, so he would have to move inside.  He is still smaller than average for a 3-4 inside linebacker, but he is talented enough to pull it off.  Dan Conner could also play inside.  He has ideal size for the position at 6’2” 231 and has some experience inside.  Jamar Williams could also play inside.  He is similar to Beason in size at 6’0” 237, but he would need to show enough strength to play the inside.

Outside Linebacker

This is where Carolina could get really creative.  They have big guys that could play the strong side and smaller guys that could rush and play coverage from both the weak and strong side.  The first name that comes to mind is Everette Brown.  He is slightly undersized (6’1” 256) for 3-4 outside linebackers, but is VERY undersized when compared to good 4-3 ends.  He seems like the ultimate “hybrid/tweener” that comes out of college these days.  He could play both outside positions, but he seems like he would be better suited on the weak side.  Eric Norwood (6’1” 245) is another hybrid DE/OLB with similar size to Brown and could play the weak side if Brown could handle the coverage responsibility on the strong side.  Dan Conner could also play strong side linebacker.  He obviously has coverage responsibility as a 4-3 middle linebacker which he could play this season.  He has decent size for a strong side outside linebacker.  There are other linebackers and defensive ends that have the size to play the 3-4 outside spot, but coverage is a big deal in that position and it is uncertain if they could make that transition.

Theory vs. Reality

I understand that there are things in life that sound great in theory, but never work realistically.  Theoretically, a move to the 3-4 would work.  The pieces look good on paper.  Realistically, however, the transition would be difficult at best.  There are nuances to both schemes that players need time to pick up.  Some players struggle with that transition and never can make it.  Some players are just suited for one scheme or the other.  That being said, that doesn’t mean you should not throw something like that in there.  Some of you know that I’m a Dolphins fan.  I also watch and root for the Panthers as well.  One of the biggest discussions on the Dolphins blog this off-season is about new defensive coordinator Mike Nolan and his hybrid 3-4 defense.  Nolan runs a base 3-4, but will often run 4-3 looks to create mismatches.  Why couldn’t the Panthers run a similar design?  The Panthers could throw in some 3-4 packages a few times a game.  Obviously I’m not suggesting a full time switch, but using a combination of fronts can keep offenses guessing and give the Panthers an edge.  If the 3-4 fronts don’t work, then you still run the 4-3, no harm done.  However, if the 3-4 works, then you have created a more complex defense and potentially improved what many are considering a liability.

Conclusion

So what do you think?  Do the Panthers have the talent to run a 3-4 scheme?  Could the players make the transition?  Would this idea be even slightly feasible?  The strength of the Panthers defense is in the linebackers and the 3-4 defense emphasizes linebackers.  The Panthers could run some 3-4 packages to see how it fares and if it works, perhaps a full time change could be in order.  I am hoping this post can generate some discussion and get Panthers fans thinking about new ideas that could help what some are considering the weakness of the team.

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There's no question that, given the right personnel, the 3-4 is very effective...

Most of the top 5 defenses in the league run the 3-4 as their base defense. It’s not an easy transition, however, as pointed out by Jamie Dukes.
http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/07/08/the-3-4-defense-isnt-as-easy-as-it-sounds/
Do we have the personnel to pull it off, even as a change of pace? Based on what you’ve written, I’ll go with a strong maybe. I’d put Charles Johnson as one of the DEs instead of Hayden. I think Brown could play at 3-4 OLB if he worked at it. Norwood or maybe Hardy at the other OLB. Where I think it falls apart is at NT. I don’t think we have the “power pig” as Dukes describes it, to occupy two blockers. But it could be worh a shot against smaller OLs, after a lot of coaching up.

I can resist everything except temptation. - Oscar Wilde

by Rick Bates on Jul 10, 2010 1:28 PM EDT reply actions  

Dukes mentions 5 teams as succeeding with the 3-4.

They are Dallas, Baltimore, NE, San Diego, and Pittsburgh.

However, only the first 3 of those allowed fewer points per game than the Panthers, last year. We did better with our 4-3 than did the Chargers and Steelers.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/sortableStatsTeam?div=NFL&sortType=defense&table=scoring&stat=scorPtsGm&dir=ascending&seasonState=regular

I wouldn’t say that’s some panacea that would compel a change. Player personnel is the key to one system or the other.

by bigdavis on Jul 11, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's good info BD. Why change what ain't broke? The 3-4 is a high reward/high risk..

system. The Tampa-2 is a bend, don’t break system. Both have advantages, but as BD points out, it really depends on personnel, no matter which system you run.

I can resist everything except temptation. - Oscar Wilde

by Rick Bates on Jul 11, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

If we really want to experiment around ...

… I think they should go the other way and have 5 linemen lol. They’d have to sign some people, but what I’d really love to see is 3 big defensive tackles in the middle with 2 quick pass rushing OLBs on the ends. Then, have a fast and athletic linebacker playing the MLB spot, 2 fast corners, and the other 3 are semi-fast hard hitting safeties.

…………………………Beason…..DT…..DT…..DT…..Norwood

Gamble……..S……………………….Anderson………………………S……..Marshall

……………………………………………….S

stuff 'bout stuff.

by silver82blade on Jul 10, 2010 1:29 PM EDT reply actions  

This is a Passing League

and defending the pass has become a priority. I agree that 3-4 defenses are a better option in general if you want to defend the pass but I don’t think that we have the personnel for that.

Based on what we have done this off-season, it is clear that we will stick to a Meeks-style defense for the most part. We have the personnel for it and we seemed to be getting comfortable with towards the end of last season.

by pieterzen on Jul 10, 2010 1:55 PM EDT reply actions  

3-4

Definitely worth throwing some looks like that in, probably more so on passing downs. Leonard is definitely NT size, but he was traded from Cleveland because they couldn’t find a spot on their line for him. Tyler is strong, but undersized. So we would need to sign a fattie, then rotate him out a lot. Which exposes us to the hurry up offense. BUT (ooo, look, a big but ;), one thing we can do to take advantage of Brown and Norwood’s talents is line them up far outside the tackle like they were in college. Line Leonard directly over the center’s helmet and let him swim to the QB, he does have talent at that, add in some linebacker gap blitzes, maybe stand up Brayton, he played some LB in Oakland, or Hardy. Or send the ends in on a stunt while a LB like Beason fires the edge. You could even bring a safety up and drop one of our faster linebackers like Beason back. You do it once, pull that safety up, and that’s one more thing the QB has to think about. Meeks could get really creative against the pass. The run too, we have incredibly athletic players on defense. Some of our ends and linebackers are interchangeable, *cough Norwood, so we could send them in as linebackers to man the gaps

Good bye #43. Good luck in Chicago.

by Flowing Willow on Jul 10, 2010 2:02 PM EDT reply actions  

We don't have someone adequate to be NT in a 3-4... that's the only roadblock I see.

For a 3-4 NT size matters… and Leonard is 325lbs while other 3-4 NTs like Jenkins, Ngata etc are all well over 340 lbs.

Tyler could be a 3-4 DE, so could Leonard… but we’d need someone to plug the middle better.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at Real Bits of Panthers

by James Dator on Jul 10, 2010 2:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Nose tackle is more about strength, leverage, and technique than size...

Randy Starks will start at NT for Miami this year. He is 6’4" 305. Jason Ferguson is a good NT and would start if he weren’t suspended. He’s 6’4" 310. Vince Wilfork, maybe the best NT in the game is 6’2" 325. Paul Soliai is 6’4" 355. He struggles at NT. If Tyler or Leonard can play with strength and leverage, then they have more than enough size to play the nose.

by The Earl on Jul 10, 2010 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting. Thanks for teaching me something. Still, I know Tyler struggled in the

3-4 at KC, and I think (don’t know for sure) that Leonard is more of a gap penetration guy than a power pig.

I can resist everything except temptation. - Oscar Wilde

by Rick Bates on Jul 11, 2010 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

As you noted, our linebackers are too undersized to run a 3-4, and as James noted, we don’t have a large enough NT.

I might note that most of the teams in the NFL don’t run an actual 3-4. They run a 5-2.

by SlayerGhaleon on Jul 10, 2010 2:14 PM EDT reply actions  

True

A lot of the rush linebackers could play end. But you’ll start to see some more “undersized” 3-4 backers soon as speed becomes more important.

Good bye #43. Good luck in Chicago.

by Flowing Willow on Jul 10, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Only Beason and Jamar Williams...

However, Beason is talented enough to handle it. And Dan Conner is ideal size for inside. Norwood and Brown are almost ideal 3-4 OLB players.

by The Earl on Jul 10, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

How about a 4-6?

Or is that really a cover 1?

I’m not as sold on the 3-4 as the best defensive alignment like many people. It’s interesting to discuss though I agree

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by Jaxon on Jul 10, 2010 7:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Jaxon, I think it's just the current fad. Teams that run it are having success...

It does put pressure on tackles and overall pass blocking schemes, producing a lot of sacks. I don’t even know what the overall success level is against the run. But, I predict that as more teams adapt the 3-4, OCs will find a scheme to attack it. Then, something new will come along, or the old 4-3 will make it’s comeback.

I can resist everything except temptation. - Oscar Wilde

by Rick Bates on Jul 11, 2010 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the accepted idea is...

…the 4-3 is solid in general (unless your front 4 is beastly…then it’s VERY powerful). The 3-4 causes confusion and chances. It’s a gambling defense that puts pressure on the offense to react to it. However if it isn’t well coached, doesn’t have the proper personnel, or has a little bad luck, it gets burned.

Do you want to gamble or limit the chance? That’s the question.

by Mr_Sticky on Jul 11, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Anybody know who this guy is?? He looks like a 3-4 NT

Knee jerk reaction - adj. 1. an immediate unthinking emotional reaction produced by an event or statement to which the reacting person is highly sensitive. 2. a facilitator of long threads on Cat Scratch Reader and similar blogs.

by Sniff on Jul 11, 2010 6:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Holy cow dude!

How’d you drag up that picture of my uncle?

Good bye #43. Good luck in Chicago.

by Flowing Willow on Jul 11, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Fridge jr!!!

some guys have a six pack, he has a sixer of MOOBS!!!

When I die, I want to go peacefully Like my Grandfather did, in his sleep--not screaming like the passenger in his car

by Catzkan79 on Jul 11, 2010 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not a beer gut...

…it’s a fuel tank for a love machine.

by Mr_Sticky on Jul 11, 2010 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like the idea of a hybrid

But do we have the size for NT on our team?

This sig is dedicated to those cut in the 2009 purge.

by chinchillas sword on Jul 12, 2010 10:47 PM EDT reply actions  

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