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Holdouts, skipped workouts and a solution that should be available.

We hear about it every season "Player X is going to hold out because he isn't satisfied with his current deal". The vast majority of the time these deals are hammered out before any real damage is done, but for all these successes there are a few occasions where a player is lost due to a soured relationship over money. In 2010 the Carolina Panthers know this as well as anyone with Julius Peppers going as far as to claim disrespect because the Panthers were willing to make him the highest paid DL, put only by a 'little bit'.

We currently have one player who appears to ready for a holdout, CB Richard Marshall, though realistically I don't think this is going to last very long. Marshall is a serviceable, yet not integral starter from where I sit and while the Panthers' pass defense would be slightly worse without him immediately, he's not a 'deal breaker' in terms of the Panthers' defensive success. 

Conversely there are three teams who are about to head into the season with a mammoth headache on their hands with three integral players all complaining about money; Chris Johnson of the Tennessee Titans, Andre Johnson of the Houston Texans and Darrelle Revis of the New York Jets; all want new deals and all appear willing to cause a headache to get what they want. Obviously organizations want to spend as little as possible on contracts, and the players want as much as possible but is there a middle ground that could and should be met? I believe so, and it comes from an unlikely source.

Star-divide

To ensure we're on the same page with these players let's look at each of them, their role is in the NFL and their current contract:

  • Chris Johnson: #1 in rushing yards in the NFL in 2009. Signed a rookie contract of 5 years, $12 million in 2008. Scheduled to end after the 2012 season
  • Andre Johnson: #1 in receiving yards in the NFL in 2009. Signed an 8 year, $60 million extension in 2007. Scheduled to end after the 2014 season.
  • Darrelle Revis: #1 in PDef in the NFL in 2009. Signed a rookie contract of 6 years, $30 million in 2007. Scheduled to end after the 2012 season.

Now we have the three players in question let's look at each of their situations separately, because they are all very different.

Chris Johnson's contract was actually better than what fellow rookies selected at his position were making. Fellow RB Rashard Mendenhall got a 5 year, $9.85 million deal despite being selected a pick before Johnson. That being said, I think it's safe to assume that most would value Johnson's talent higher than his salary at this time.

Andre Johnson proved himself and was rewarded with a $60 million extension. Now, he feels like that isn't enough since he's the #1 receiver in the NFL. A fair comparison is Larry Fitzgerald who signed a 4 year, $40 million extension in 2008. Given that this is the rate for top receivers the difference between Johnson and Fitzgerald is $1.5 million per season, and personally I feel that he may deserve a small bump.

Darrelle Revis is easily regarded as the best CB in the NFL right now; however, he wants a deal that pays him $20 million per season; roughly a third more than what the current highest paid CB salary is with Nnamdi Asomugha from Oakland. It's clear that Revis is better than Asomugha, but is he a third better?

From a barebones perspective from the place of these three players they all probably deserve some form of bump in their salary. Revis and Chris Johnson deserve significant bumps and Andre Johnson needs a small one to bring him in line with other top WRs. That being said, they are only half of this equation and the organizations have a right to minimize their costs however possible.

Nobody forced these player's hands to sign the contracts they did. In the case of Chris Johnson and Revis they had less opportunities for negotiations because there is little wiggle room in rookie deals, the league sets the value of the picks. Andre Johnson freely signed a 7 year extension, which is extremely long but he's getting paid well for it.

If I may, let me utilize this analogy: If I decide to purchase a house that needs some work in a less than ideal neighborhood then I do so for the lowest possible price I can because I am assuming a significant risk. Perhaps that neighborhood will become a high crime area, perhaps there will be more work that needs to be done to the house than I originally anticipated? There are myriad reasons this risk is there. Say I am able to renovate the house, the neighborhood becomes stable and I increase the house's value two-fold should the original owner be able to approach me and ask for more money? This is the situation we're in with NFL players.

Teams are assuming a great deal of risk with first round picks, the Oakland Raiders recently typified this risk with the cutting of Jamarcus Russell. In this case the house (Russell) needed more work than anticipated and had to be demolished, it had significant unforeseen problems. Will Russell give back any of his money to Oakland? Not on your life. Sullying this issue further are the sandbaggers. Players like Albert Haynesworth who seems to magically be able to perform when a new contract is looming. Here again, we have a situation where the buyer should have been aware, but they're not getting back any of their investment.

From where I sit the players want to have their cake and eat it too. They want lots of guaranteed money as rookies with little recompense if they can't adjust to the NFL, but they also want the ability to hold out and get more money if they're not satisfied with the deal they signed earlier. This ‘double dipping' is going to test the resolve of NFL teams who are very afraid to risk losing a player for a season that is so integral to their success. The NFL as a whole are watching the Andre Johnson situation very closely because if the Texans are not able to hold their ground they are setting a dangerous precedent, one where players will hold out a year or two into their deals because they over performed.

A lot of the time I hear people compare NFL players to salaried employees, which is a poor analogy. For a salaried employee has the right to approach their boss and ask for a raise based on their performance, however, a contracted employee (like an NFL player) has agreed to a fixed term and compensation based on an agreed upon rate; and while the salaried employee can be fired with little or no compensation the contracted employee will still be guaranteed a portion of their money.

What then is the solution to this whole debacle? For the answer I will return to the beleaguered housing industry for an example of how these dealings should be handled.

When one is negotiating a mortgage with a bank one of the key terms in the negotiation is not only the interest rate, but also whether it is fixed or variable. The situation we have in the NFL is also entirely based on a fixed rate with little variation, sure, there are performance based incentives and bonuses but not to the degree I'm proposing.

I believe the negotiations should be handled thus:

1.     The player and the team decide on whether the contract should be fixed or variable.

a.     If the contract is fixed then it behaves like a current deal.

b.     If the contract is variable then a ceiling and floor is mandated by the league based on a performance table. Say, $1000 for every receiving yard, $10,000 for every touchdown etc.

 

2.     The league polices the contracts.

a.     If the deal is fixed the player is unable to hold out or they become actionable in civil court.

b.     If the deal is variable the organization must give written reason to the league why a player sat out a game so they are unable to play cheaper performance based players against lesser teams. In the case of both injury and the league finding a lack of reason for the benching the player receives a check for the average of their performance.

 

3.     The salary cap is modified to allow for both styles of contract. In the case of variable contracts an average cap hit is established for the player based on their prior year's performance.

 

You now have a situation where both the players and the organizations have a fair opportunity to be protected. If a wide receiver in concerned about his team's QB situation or their overall talent they can negotiate a fixed contract, and if a player believes they can exceed the valuation the team places on him they can elect for a variable one. In the case of rookies they are guaranteed a smaller guaranteed contract based on their draft position, but have higher escalators for performance.

It seems to me that much of the CBA negotiations and holdup right now are based on an archaic system where both sides can potentially lose if the circumstances are right, and I believe my outline takes the salary structure into the 21st Century and could alleviate much of the concern both sides have. I welcome your thoughts on this issue as well as my belief for fixing a broken system.

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Comments

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It is silly, if you ask me.

What does a contract mean nowadays? If a man signs something, his “word” has been recorded, permanently. To then, two years later, threaten to hold out, or complain about a contract you agreed upon and signed is terribly immature, among other things. Just be a man about it. Whatever happened to that?

As for the Revis situation…I believe the highest paid corner is actually Nnamdi Asomuhga in Oakland. Seems like he signed a deal two years ago that pissed off many GMs because it was setting the bar so ridiculously high. It was like 49M over 3 years or something crazy like that. So I think this gives Revis a little more ammunition in his plea for 20M a season…but c’mon, he’s no Julius Peppers (sarcasm).

Do or do not. There is no try.

by ERL on May 18, 2010 12:30 PM EDT reply actions  

Good point

Robinson has a higher total contract, but a lower yearly salary. I have adjusted to accomodate

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com

by James Dator on May 18, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1, The NFL has taken all the meaning out of the word "contract"

The way it should work, is that if players start holding out of activities required by their contract then the teams start taking them to task for it. Start making them answer for the contract breaches in civil court.

This is difficult in the NFL, because if you start taking talented players to court to force them to play for their contracts, you end up with disgruntled players who maybe don’t give 100% on every play like they are paid to do. Or you end up with a problem in the locker room. You really would have a hard time showing how a player isn’t fulfilling contract obligations based on his perceived effort.

So how do you give a player a chance to earn more money year by year if they play above what you are paying them? You provide contract incentives based on performance. But even then, arguments can be made (especially from skill players on offense), that they weren’t provided the opportunity to meet these goals. They didn’t get enough carries, targets, or opportunities to throw the ball.

This is a tough issue indeed, but my stance remains that… you signed a contract, you should honor that contract and then when the time comes you can be rewarded with a new one.

Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers

by Tater596 on May 18, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

In our world of instant gratification

players, or people in general, have lost the ability to wait for anything, it appears. Me included. Who know Bagel Bites took so friggin long? But you gotta do ‘em in the toaster or they’re gross.

Do or do not. There is no try.

by ERL on May 18, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Word up dude
you gotta do ‘em in the toaster or they’re gross

by The Duke Dude on May 18, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nnamdi Asomuhga....

In 2009 the Raiders re-signed Asomugha to a complex three-year deal that makes him the highest paid defensive back in NFL history. The first two years, worth $28.5 million, are fully guaranteed. The third year of the contract, if Oakland wants to keep Asomugha, they must pay him the average of the top five highest-paid quarterbacks or $16.875 million, whichever is higher. If the Raiders fail to pick up the option, Asomugha will become a free agent with Oakland not having the ability to tag him again.

Take the world as it is, not as it ought to be.

by Cold Steel on May 18, 2010 12:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks again, I adjusted to accommodate after posting.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com

by James Dator on May 18, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure a contract based entirely on variable compensation is practical...

I actually work with a variable compensation (incentive based) system, but the variable pay is in addition to salary. In essence, it’s the same as performance based clauses in current contracts. What we sometimes find is that the employee colludes with others to abuse the system, and management has to get involved. For instance, Steve Smith works a deal with Matt Moore to give him 10% of his “reception pay” in exchange for having more balls thrown his way.
Another option that is available would be to include “market-based” contract terms, enabling the player to “refinance” every two years based on his current relative market value.
I like the outside the box thinking. This “pay me or I’m going to hold out” crap is just senseless.

"Stay thirsty my friends"

by Rick Bates on May 18, 2010 1:00 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't actually have a problem with holding out

Particularly if the player is reaching the end of their rookie deal and is playing better than most at their position. What irks me most is Andre Johnson. Just signed a big extension and then comes back and says I want more money. I realize that he’s been playing really well now that he actually has a decent QB, but still. He’s only what, two years into the new extension. His actions are what lead to typing professional athletes has having lost touch with reality. He’s going to make $60 million in 7 years. I won’t make anything close to that in 70 years (unless I win the lottery).

by The Duke Dude on May 18, 2010 1:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Viking fan here.

Nice article. I have been very interested in the current CBA negotiations going on and find the contract issues very interesting. Hope you don’t mind my two cents worth.

The one point you missed was the fact that no NFL contract is guaranteed. The NFL can fire any player it wants anytime without penalty. In a league where the average players lifespan is 3.5 years, long term contracts mean almost nothing. If a player signs a 4 year 100 million dollar deal where 99 million is paid in the last year it really becomes a 3 year 1 Million dollar contract. The player will be cut the last year. This is different than every other sport that makes every contract fully guaranteed. In your housing analogy it is like the bank agreeing to loan you $50,000 over a couple of years to fix up the house but canceling the loan half way through. This leaves you with a house half finished and no way to complete the deal.
To counter this the players have demanded partial guarantees. Amounts that tend to equal 2-3 years salary. But the owners always want 5-6 year contracts. In this manner they own a player at a bargain price and therefore , they control his future. The only re-bargaining power a player has is the right to hold out for one year. But the player has to give up one years salary in order to hold out and change teams.

The owners have fought free agency for 40 years. They don’t want a player to have the ability to freely shop his services. At the same time they don’t want to pay a player his current market value. I like your theory of a flexible contract. I further think that both sides could live with shorter contracts that are fully guaranteed with the proviso that a player will not get the money if he holds out or purposely doesn’t perform.

"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp

by lifelongvike on May 18, 2010 1:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Good thoughts

Particularly the bit about guaranteed money and where the majority of the money is put. I think we hear $25 million in 5 years, but we don’t hear $10 million in the last year of the 5. Your point of teams cutting the player before that last year is true. In fact, we’ve seen a bit of it here this offseason.

Totally off topic, do you think Brett’s gonna be back? And a better question is, do you even want him back?

Thanks for stopping by!

by The Duke Dude on May 18, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the comment

I did make mention of guaranteed money:

while the salaried employee can be fired with little or no compensation the contracted employee will still be guaranteed a portion of their money.

It’s just the amount guaranteed that becomes contentious. Maybe the solution to a ‘fixed’ contract is that all the money is guaranteed unless the player is forced to terminate the deal early due to injury, or the team has the right to terminate the contract due to conduct detrimental to the organization.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com

by James Dator on May 18, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Welcome, and you make good points. There are inequities that need to be fixed...

But there are likewise equitable solutions.

Joe Kapp was the toughest son-of-a-bitch QB I’ve ever seen. I used to love the Vikes D-Line with Eller, Page, Marshall.

"Stay thirsty my friends"

by Rick Bates on May 18, 2010 1:45 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm not convinced that the owners want to fix the problem.

I’m not pro athlete or pro owners. I just keep analyzing the facts and can’t figure out where the owners have anything to complain about. They all make money. They have exclusive rights to a new employee for 3-6 years. They have the right to franchise a player and never let him go. They have the right to not play a player if the contract is performance based. They have the right to unilaterally cancel a contract with no penalties.

The only thing they don’t have is the ability to enslave a player and make him play. They can’t make him happy by simply demanding it. For that they have to actually manage him as a person, not treat him as chattle.

Sounds easy to me. Treat your employees with dignity and respect and get the same in return.

"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp

by lifelongvike on May 18, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you really think it's all about dignity and respect to some of these guys though?

I think it’s about money more than anything.

You’re a Vikings fan, so I don’t expect you know the whole situation but the Panthers treated Julius Peppers with the utmost respect and dignity. They tried to make him the highest paid defensive player in the NFL, and he said he needed a change of scenery, then we tried again to make him the highest paid DE… and he claimed they were trying to insult him by offering a few million more than Jared Allen, but not significantly more.

I agree that there are some teams who don’t really respect their players, but I tend to think the vast majority are players and agents trying to squeeze every last drop of green they can get.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com

by James Dator on May 18, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can't explain Julius Peppers.

Except to say that often times in the workplace there are simply conflicts between management and workers that even money can’t fix. I suspect that if I were paid several million dollars in one year I might be a little harder to please than I am now. In other words I could afford to be more pigheaded.
The Vikings had a similar situation with long term center Matt Birk. Him and management got crosswise. By the time the Vikes offered a matching contract Birk said “Forget it I’m going where I’m appreciated.” Management makes mistakes. Players make mistakes.

 A players work life can end on every play. Their work life is only 3.5 years long on average. It makes sense to me that they fight,claw, and scratch for every penny they can get from management. I understand the owners feeling the same way. All I really want is for each side to shake hands and give 100% after the contract negotiations are finished.

"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp

by lifelongvike on May 19, 2010 7:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Each side only cares about themselves and not the overall product and the consumers that (currently) want that product. But that’s capitalism and I’m not here for ideology. I propose some give and take:

1. The most obvious: rookie pay scale 32 million to the top pick reduced by 1/2 mil every spot in the 1st round, 500k to each player who makes the 53 man roster from rounds 2-7every one plays for the minimum salary.
2. Rookie deals last 4 years, with one franchise year where the player is paid the average of the top 10 in his position or a forced 2 year extension must be used before the start of the player’s third year (total of 6 years) pays the player the average of the top 5 players plus an additional 25% of total in guaranteed money no player is subject to both. no more restricted free agency.
3. Veteran minimum salary is double current standard
4. No new player contract can exceed 5% of the top player’s salary for that position
5. Tom Brady is allowed to be hit again.
6. Players face stiff penalties for holding out (expect for those under franchise or forced extensions) as do teams for early contract termination.

"I kinda just sling it" -Jake

by bleed_in_blue on May 19, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Wow, thats innovative, creative, workable, and extremely practical.

"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp

by lifelongvike on May 19, 2010 7:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's a great plan

I especially love #5 :-)

(Seriously though – this is a great idea.)

Thanks to the Denver Broncos, my sanity (what's left of it, at least) will remain intact for 2010.

My Panthers Blog | My Twitter Page

by BW Smith on May 19, 2010 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

These really are great

I like your take on Rookie deals and raising the Vet minimum. And #5 is just plain awesome.

by The Duke Dude on May 19, 2010 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

John Randle is one of my all-time favorite players. a 6 foot nothing 265 lb DT that was just simply a wrecking ball.

Do or do not. There is no try.

by ERL on May 18, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

He will be

Scheduled to be in the class of 2010

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com

by James Dator on May 18, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

NFL.com doesn't have the draft team

But a couple of other sites did have him listed as undrafted. Granted, one was Wiki, so take it with a grain of salt.

by The Duke Dude on May 18, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the kind words about the Vikings

Yes, John Randall was undrafted. A terrific player.

BTW Duke,
98% of Viking fans believe Brett is coming back. 98% want him back. He improved our offense and he is under contract for one more year. We like our back-ups but they are not Brett Farve. We certainly understand if he decides to retire. We knew it was a tough decision for him last year and understand it is the same this year.

"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp

by lifelongvike on May 18, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting

Obviously he’s an upgrade for y’all at QB. I wasn’t sure how his being a Packer for so long would effect the opinion of the fanbase.

Personally, I hope he comes back. I like watchin the Ol’ Gunslinger.

by The Duke Dude on May 18, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just wondering..

What’s the fan base up there saying about Peterson’s fumbleitis?

"Stay thirsty my friends"

by Rick Bates on May 18, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Has he lost the label of "Best Back in the League?"

Because of his fumbling? I thought he had a down year last year, after setting the bar so high, particularly in 2008.

Do or do not. There is no try.

by ERL on May 18, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with ERL

I don’t recall it being so bad last year.

by The Duke Dude on May 18, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is until the NFC Championship game

He had several costly fumbles. I’m thinking the Vikes would have won hands-down if he’d held on to the ball.

Do or do not. There is no try.

by ERL on May 18, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Probably would have won

if the fullback hadn’t been the 12th man in the huddle. But fumbles never help.

"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp

by lifelongvike on May 18, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

that’s like saying that the guy that struck out for the 3rd out in the bottom of the ninth was the reason a baseball team lost.

My point is, the Vikes wouldn’t have been put in a position where they had to go to overtime if AP held onto the ball. It would have been a blowout.

Do or do not. There is no try.

by ERL on May 18, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly.

Favre catches a lot of flack for that loss, but it wasn’t on him.

Granted, he shouldn’t have thrown that last pass that was picked off, but if not for AP’s fumbling, that pass would have never needed to be thrown.

Thanks to the Denver Broncos, my sanity (what's left of it, at least) will remain intact for 2010.

My Panthers Blog | My Twitter Page

by BW Smith on May 18, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I may be wrong

but weren’t the Vikings up when Brett threw that pick?

by The Duke Dude on May 18, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, they weren't ahead...

The game was tied at 28 with like 20 seconds to go. The INT forced the game into OT, and if Brett would have scrambled (or crawled on his hands and knees) he could have gotten a first down or at least given the Vikes a shot at a field goal.

But if AP hadn’t coughed the ball up so many times, the Vikes could have (and should have) been ahead, where the Vikes would have been in run out the clock mode instead of try to win the game mode.

Thanks to the Denver Broncos, my sanity (what's left of it, at least) will remain intact for 2010.

My Panthers Blog | My Twitter Page

by BW Smith on May 18, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

No problem...

Thanks to the Denver Broncos, my sanity (what's left of it, at least) will remain intact for 2010.

My Panthers Blog | My Twitter Page

by BW Smith on May 19, 2010 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great questions

We got over Brett being a Packer when we saw him win games we knew our backups were not ready to win.

AP is no different now than before. His running style is susceptible to fumbling. We hope he can fix it. Everyone is upset but how upset can you be at a guy that had 20 TDs last year.
But his production numbers were due to O-Line issues. Two experienced guys played injured most of the year. Plus there were two first year starters on the line. Since we didn’t draft O-Line this year we think the front office believes in our O-Line and believes they will be much better.

"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp

by lifelongvike on May 18, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good observations

I agree with you about AP. And I’ll take some extra fumbles in return for watching him flat out run straight over defensive players.

We got over Brett being a Packer when we saw him win games we knew our backups were not ready to win.

How very practical of you :p

by The Duke Dude on May 18, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Darryl Reavis, Julius Peppers, et.al

Assuming there was a CBA for the coming year, these guys want 15% of the total cap for the entire team. Screw the other 52 guys, I’m worth more than any other 5 starters. Ridiculous.

Knee jerk reaction - adj. 1. an immediate unthinking emotional reaction produced by an event or statement to which the reacting person is highly sensitive. 2. a facilitator of long threads on Cat Scratch Reader and similar blogs.

by Sniff on May 18, 2010 1:51 PM EDT reply actions  

Exactly

It’s almost as ridiculous as the “Revis Island” horse shit that NFL Live shoves down our throat.

Thanks to the Denver Broncos, my sanity (what's left of it, at least) will remain intact for 2010.

My Panthers Blog | My Twitter Page

by BW Smith on May 18, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm just curious

because asking for 15-20% of a total team salary does seem a bit high. Although several QBs make this much.
But is it the same level of ridiculousness that the owners are asking all the players to take a 20% pay cut?
My guess is that both are simply opening bids which neither side truly expects to receive.

"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp

by lifelongvike on May 18, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

yup

“you gotta low-ball ’em with these things.”

If they cannot agree on a reasonable middle-ground, and there is a lockout in 2011, nobody wins. If that happens I’ll lose a ton of respect for the shield, the owners, and the player reps.

Do or do not. There is no try.

by ERL on May 18, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

(not that they give two poopies, obviously)

Do or do not. There is no try.

by ERL on May 18, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just so we're on the same page

I think the owners are hoping for too much, but they’re not asking for a 20% reduction in all their player’s salaries, they’re asking for a 20% reduction in the salary cap.

Most of that 20% would be solved with a rookie pay scale, but I think the owners and players could play ball and achieve a 12-15% reduction.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com

by James Dator on May 18, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry to correct you but that is incorrect.

The owners and players have a "revenue sharing "plan. All sports leagues pay about 60% of their total revenue to the players as salaries. The NFL and players agreed years ago to a split. The first 1 Billion dollars goes 100% to the Owners. The players and owners split the rest 60/40. It works out to about 52% of total revenues going to the players. The owners want to cut the split from 60% to 42%. This would mean that all of the players receive 18% less in total pay. The cap was in place because the owners want the cap. Prior to 1983 the owners were going broke because they couldn’t help themselves from overspending. So they asked the Players Association to give them a cap in exchange for a 60/40 split except for the 1st Billion.

"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp

by lifelongvike on May 18, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bringing the 'revenue sharing plan' into the equation only sullies the matter

I see the pie chart you’re referring to on the NFLPA’s website, but it’s not applicable.

The central and only sticking point for the NFLPA is the proposed reduction in the salary cap by the owners, and the desire by the NFLPA to have NFL teams open their books to report exactly how much their making so a basis on a new CBA and salary cap can be agreed upon.

Taken directly from the NFLPA website:

February 2010: The NFL rejected the NFLPA’s proposal to continue the current capped system for an additional year which would have allowed the parties ample time to complete work on a long-term CBA.

Boiled down to it’s most basic level (which is all we really need to be worrying about) the owners and league claim they’re making less money and need to reign in contracts and the union call BS that they’re making less money and wont budge until the league proves it.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com

by James Dator on May 18, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not a correct reading.

The term “continue the capped system” means continuing the existing contract under the terms last year. This is the final year of the contract and it is an uncapped year. The owners proposal is to reduce the split of revenue. The cap is computed by determining the amount of revenue generated by the split.

The definition you cited does not describe the owners proposal.

"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp

by lifelongvike on May 18, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only side claiming an overall reduction in the revenue is the player's association, and the only person ever mentioning that 18% number is Demaurice Smith

I can’t find any article that claims that 18% number without directly quoting Smith who says that’s what the owners want.

I see below that you too have read the CBA… fun isn’t it? LOL

So, I take this from Section 2, Article 24 of the 2006 CBA:

(a) If in any League Year the total Player Costs for all NFL Teams equals or exceeds 56.074% of actual Total Revenues, there shall be a Guaranteed League-wide Salary, Salary Cap, and Minimum Team Salary in the amounts set forth below for the next League Year and all subsequent League Years, unless the Salary Cap is removed pursuant to Section 2(b) below. Notwithstanding the immediately preceding sentence, there will be no Guaranteed League-wide Salary, Salary Cap, or Minimum Team Salary in
the Final League Year.

(b) If the total Player Costs of the NFL Teams during any League Year in which the Salary Cap is in effect falls below 46.868% of actual Total Revenues (before taking into account, and exclusive of, any Guaranteed League-wide Salary makeup payments pursuant to Section 3 below), then there shall be no Salary Cap for the next League Year or any succeeding League Year unless and until the Salary Cap again becomes effective in accordance with Section 2(a) above.

Given that the NFLPA’s site does not reference either the 56.074% or the 46.868% numbers I start to wonder if they’re using some fuzzy math in their figures.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com

by James Dator on May 18, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

The owners pay 100% of the costs, but reap only 40% of the profits, so no, thats not the same level of ridiculousness IMO

Knee jerk reaction - adj. 1. an immediate unthinking emotional reaction produced by an event or statement to which the reacting person is highly sensitive. 2. a facilitator of long threads on Cat Scratch Reader and similar blogs.

by Sniff on May 18, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do they?

I wanted to believe that but then I found out that the owners get 100% of the first 1 Billion dollars for cost. Then I started looking at how much the owners get from taxpayers for their new stadiums. And then I look at Verizon giving the owners a new 720 Million dollar revenue stream for NFL on cell phones with no cost to the NFL at all. Direct TV pays 1 Billion per year. And they will pay that much even if there is a football lockout.

I have gotten to the point where I don’t believe either side until one side proves something. I’m really tired of the spin. I want football next year. And there is no reasonable reason both sides can’t agree on how to do that.

"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp

by lifelongvike on May 18, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Funny how that is

I wanted to come up with some witty quote about how tarnishing reality can be, but I can’t think of anything.

I want football next year. And there is no reasonable reason both sides can’t agree on how to do that.

Spoken for all NFL fans.

by The Duke Dude on May 18, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

BTW

Did I mention that I am a big Clausen fan and how absolutely livid I was that the Vikes didn’t grab him. In my humble opinion you guys got the steal of the draft.
Nice job

"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp

by lifelongvike on May 18, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, we hope so too

You a ND fan, by any chance? Or just like what you’ve seen of him?

by The Duke Dude on May 18, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, I'm a ND hater. University of Iowa guy.

I was always told ND cheated ( faked injuries) against us in a game in the 1950’s. Always held the story against them.

I just know that the Vikes need a QB in the future and Clausen had all the stats needed in college to prove he was a possible franchise guy. When you pick 30th each year you don’t get many opportunities. If we had blown a 1st round draft choice it wouldn’t have hurt our franchise at all. That doesn’t happen very often. Hopefully, our FOs decision to go with Toby Gerhart will prove to the fans that they know what they are doing. They haven’t been wrong in awhile.

"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp

by lifelongvike on May 18, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Please don't take offense because we've had a great conversation

But judging from this comment re: the $1 billion and the DirecTV and Verizon deals I get the feeling you’re believing a lot of the rhetoric over on the NFLPA website.

Obviously both are in full bore PR mode trying to convince and the answer lies somewhere in the middle, but it’s fair to read the NFL’s rhetoric too over at NFLLabor.com.

The Unions fact site can be found at

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com

by James Dator on May 18, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

bad second link

http://www.nflplayers.com/about-us/2011-Lockout-Central/

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com

by James Dator on May 18, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

No offense taken to a great discussion.

I hate to talk about these things even on the Daily Norseman let alone someone elses site.
I got so tired of the nonsense that I finally read the CBA. Then I looked at the proposals as reported. I do not believe any of the facts I stated are incorrect. I agree that the players also spin their side.

But as to the owners claim about expenses. Green Bay is the only publicly held NFL franchise. Unfortunately, for the owners, none of the arguments they made seemed to be verified by the last quarterly financial statement filed by the Packers.
I really do appreciate any info you can bring to light on this issue. I have been on both the owners and players website before.

Here is a post I did where I came up with a plan for ending the stalemate. Although intrinsically idealistic I sure wish it were implemented by a few great QBs.

"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp

by lifelongvike on May 18, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Forgot the link

Ending the Stalemate

"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp

by lifelongvike on May 18, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

And one more thing James

Nnamdi Asomugha is better than Darrelle Revis. I based my comparison on the front seven of each team. The NY Jet front seven provides such a great pass rush that it makes it hard for any quarterback to throw accurately to the receiver on Revis’ corner. I am not saying he’s not good, he’s just better than Asomugha. Asomugha Front seven doesn’t provide a good enough pass rush and Quarterback don’t even throw were he is. My opinion, Asomugha id better than Revis.

by panthertillidrop on May 18, 2010 2:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Good point

Nnamdi is pretty much out there by himself, with the exception of two or three other guys who are legitimate starters, whereas Revis benefits from his number one ranked defense.

Also, Oakland plays a man coverage scheme with little to no blitzing. The Jets play a press man, and will bring at least 5 rushers on every play.

Not sure you can call one better than the other, but Revis does have the upper-hand due to his team being better, collectively.

Do or do not. There is no try.

by ERL on May 18, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm being purely empirical in my analysis

From where I sit Revis shut down #1 receivers better than anyone has in the NFL in years, and he saw the best the league had to offer in 2009.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com

by James Dator on May 18, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

He did

A small piece of his success, however, should be attributed to his defense being the best in the league, statistically.

Do or do not. There is no try.

by ERL on May 18, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

No doubt, absolutely

The Raiders pass defense was pretty good in 2009 (7th in the NFL) it was their run defense that was horrible.

If Asomugha was a defensive standout and there was no pass rush you’d expect his numbers to be good and the overall pass D would be poor.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com

by James Dator on May 18, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, probably

Maybe they were 7th against the pass because teams could only throw to one side of the field.

Again, hard to quantify who is better, for me anyway. If you ask me who I’d draft in a fantasy draft (not fantasy football), it’d be Revis because he’s 5 years younger, and has tasted winning in the NFL.

Do or do not. There is no try.

by ERL on May 18, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nnamdi's numbers

Actually, I’d expect his numbers to be very low. If I’m Tom Cable, I want his season statistics to be zero tackles, zero INTs, etc. It means teams are not even bothering to throw his way.

Do or do not. There is no try.

by ERL on May 18, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

The way I evaluate CBs isn’t by looking at their numbers per se, it’s about looking at the guys they covered and comparing the result with their season average.

In the case of Revis (for just one example)

Randy Moss
Season average (per game): 5.2 rec, 86.1 yards, 0.85 TD
Average v. Revis: 4.5 rec, 29 yards, 0.50 TD

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com

by James Dator on May 18, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is the best barometer

And Revis had very impressive statistics against pro-bowl receivers. I’d be interesting to see which corner was targeted more. My bet would be Revis, simply because he was not as respected until later in the season, whereas Nnamdi has established himself as one of the best corners in the league for several years running.

Do or do not. There is no try.

by ERL on May 18, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

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