Is the Carolina Panthers’ defensive line really the Achilles Heel we believe?
by James The Aussie on May 12, 2010 9:04 AM EDT
86 comments
If you talked to most fans prior to the 2010 draft there was one almost unanimous lock, that the Panthers would select a defensive tackle, and likely take one early. The draft came and went and the organization chose to ignore the crop of defensive tackles much to the chagrin of the fan base. It was widely believed that the defensive line was a weakness of the Panthers in 2009, not solidified until they signed Hollis Thomas to fill the gap at NT.
There is only one solitary starter returning from the 2009 D-line, DE Tyler Brayton- the remaining spots will likely be filled with DE Charles Johnson, NT Louis Leonard and DT Tank Tyler, the latter two players being traded for during the 2009 season. On the surface it appears like this piecemeal defensive line will be a headache for the Panthers in 2010, but the situation may not be as bad as you think.
More after the jump
To start with the benchmarks we'll be comparing the statistics of the 2010 Panthers with their 2009 compatriots as starters in the NFL. In order to get a fair comparison I am going to look solely at their averages as starters, and in the case of the 2009 starters look at their per start numbers solely as Carolina Panthers
Julius Peppers: 4.1 tackles, 0.77 sacks, 0.32 FF
Maake Kemoeatu: 2.9 tackles, 0.03 FF
Damione Lewis: 2.5 tackles, 0.14 sacks, 0.05 FF
Hollis Thomas: 2.5 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 FF
We now have our benchmarks for what these departed players did on a per game basis as Carolina Panthers. Now for comparison we'll look at the projected 2010 lineman to see what they have done in their past when given the opportunity to start.
Charles Johnson: 3.6 tackles, 0.66 sacks, 0 FF
Louis Leonard: 2.25 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 FF
Tank Tyler: 3 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 FF
Ed Johnson: 4.1 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 FF
The numbers certainly surprised me, as they were much closer than I thought. Look what happens when you average out the line's stats as a whole:
2009 starters: 3 tackles, 0.23 sacks, 0.1 FF
2010 starters: 3.24 tackles, 0.17 sacks, 0 FF
Granted, this is the most rudimentary form of breaking down statistics, but on a superficial level it appears that the projected 2010 line doesn't get to the QB as much, but they do tackle better as a whole.
This doesn't take into account several different factors:
- Players who spent significant time on field, but did not technically start
- Players who started, but left the game
- A breakdown of per snap performance
The answer to all three of these questions in the same, scheming; I didn't feel it was fair to breakdown statistics per snap because it would greatly skew the numbers in favor of the projected 2010 starters. Both Everette Brown and Charles Johnson have put up solid numbers in relief coming in for a few snaps as pass rushers and getting a sack or two- this would make it appear that they are both vastly superior to Julius Peppers, when that isn't the case at this time.
The ‘X-Factor' in all of this is experience. The projected 2010 line is exceedingly young, with the projected starters averaging just 3.4 seasons in the league compared to the 2009 line who averaged 7.8 seasons experience; however, let me leave you with this comparison:
The 2010 D-line will average 3.4 seasons experience, after Jordan Gross' injury the 2009 offensive line averaged 3.8 seasons experience and they faired pretty well.
It is very possible that the 2010 defensive line could be the downfall of the Panthers' defense in 2010, however, this group does have the history of solid starts and I believe they have the potential to surprise.
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What happens if...
…you put Tyler Brayton in at DE rather than Ed Johnson? I had assumed Brayton would be the starter for 2010.
Also, one other point about these statistics that might be relevant is the consideration on how many of the 2010 guys have started an entire season? That kind of wear-and-tear on the body can play a factor in productivity. Will players like Charles Johnson be able to maintain their production if called on to play most of the snaps and every game? And how much did they benefit from spot-duty and rotational play only on certain downs?
We won’t really get an answer to this kind of question even during the preseason, because none of the starters will play an entire game. Only preseason Game 3 will give us the greatest indication of how the D-line will consistently perform as a unit. And even then, we may have to wait until the regular season opener against a hungry Giants team to know for sure.
My two-cents,
—Neil
I should have clarified
I put Ed Johnson in because he’s likely to get a look as a starter and wanted to include him.
I omitted Tyler Brayton because he’s going to be present on both the 2009 and 2010 lines, so there will be an equal change in the whole line stats.
I didn’t intend to lead people to think the line would include three DTs. I supposed the line would be Charles Johnson, Louis Leonard, Tank Tyler, Tyler Brayton.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com
by James The Aussie on May 12, 2010 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
What you've pointed out is the depth and versatility we have this year...
It’s just possible that our DL becomes the unsung heroes for the defense. We’ve got enough big bodies to rotate players and keep them fresh. I don’t think anybody will be able to run wide on us with our LB and secondary speed. And, lest you forget, there’s a Beast standing right behind whoever’s in as DTs. I don’t care if we don’t get great push on 1st downs, if the DTs can keep blockers off of Beast, he will feast.
Getting Thomas Davis back and having Connor play SAM on 1st down should provide plenty of cutback support.
And remember, it’s okay if team’s move the ball between the 20s, as long as we own the red zone.
"Stay thirsty my friends"
I think experience is less a factor on the lines, both offense and defense
It’s not so much dependent on game knowledge and more simply on technique. A rookie mauler like Otah can come in and play well simply with strength and technique. Same with the young DT’s. Tyler was highly rated coming into the league and has had time to mature. Lewis wasn’t highly rated but the staff saw enough of him to be very happy prior to his injury. They both have huge incentive to turn it up this season though.
Of course all this mixed opinion might change with the signing of a healthy John Henderson ;)
I'm sure.
Right now, we know Leonard and Tyler can be solid rotational players, we don’t know if they can start. Henderson would give us security on the line, which is why you would see a lot of people change their opinions. Even our own vaunted Aussie I believe. ;)
Good bye #43. Good luck in Chicago.
by Flowing Willow on May 13, 2010 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Security is for old people (like me)
Henderson’s 31 – too old for the Kiddie Corps of the Panthers (and Ida thought 4U2!)
Nah
Henderson is a good player, and would aid with the growing pains. That way if Tank or L2 don’t work out, we’re not completely screwed.
Good bye #43. Good luck in Chicago.
by Flowing Willow on May 14, 2010 3:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Its not all doom and gloom for me, but I'm not confident like I've been in the past
The fact is, we just don’t know what to expect. We have not been in this position in a long time, if at all. Before the Ruck, Jenks, Pep, and Buck line, we had the old vets like White, Gilbert, Smith, etc.
Starting over is not always a bad thing, but typically when you do start over, you’ll “stockpile,” similar to what they’ve done with the WRs and QBs. This way, you have a higher chance of “hitting” on a guy or two, while the rest will likely “miss.” I see the D-line situation as more sketchy than those other two positions, as their is a proven guy at WR, and there is a QB on the roster who has had nothing but success so far….but they chose to sit tight and not add competition, while adding 8 guys to passing or defending the pass.
Honestly, the most exciting part of our D-line, to me, is a guy that is listed at LB, Eric Norwood. I have a feeling that at some point, he will be the elite pass rusher that we lost when Pep walked out the door.
Do or do not. There is no try.
The guys on the O-line had reputations as "players"
The guys on the D-line don’t really come with any expectations…which may actually be the best thing for them.
Don’t get me wrong. I WANT THEM TO SUCCEED!
I just think we need to add a guy who can be a potential difference maker on the interior.
Do or do not. There is no try.
Since they chose to "ignore" the DT position
I think speaks volumes. They know better than we about that team. So if its not a priority to them then maybe there’s no problem.
We had a 1/2 way “need” at QB and they addressed they hell out of it. Same with WR and ST and DB. Unless they just forgot that the DT position exists, they have evaluated the situation. And apparently they didn’t come to the conclusion that there was a “need” that need be addressed.
Thomas Davis, Jon Beason, Eric Norwood, Dan Conner, James Anderson, and Jamar Williams are our LB corp!!!!
Tank (306) and Leonard (325) will stop the run and collapse the pocket! I promise!
Our front 7 will be BEAST!
by STEVEN 785 on May 12, 2010 4:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Your points are all good ones, Steven
I can’t claim to have the same opportunities to evaluate the players that the coaches and Marty Hurney have. But I’m not sure we can assume that their evaluations are always spot-on.
For example, for 7 or 8 years, they chose not to draft (besides Stephan LeFours) a young QB to groom behind Jake Delhomme. This oversight, or the miss-evaluation of the QB position, if you will, led us to put all of our eggs in the Jake Delhomme basket during the last 7 seasons, and that turned out to be a rather large detraction, especially in 2009.
Again, I’d like nothing more than the group of players we have at DT and DE to succeed. Without a proven difference maker, however, I fear that we are operating under the assumption that the 8 or 9 D-lineman that will make the team will be able to get the job done.
At this time, we do not have a DT on the roster who was able to stay healthy last season, and these injuries happened while they were in complimentary roles. These same players will now be asked to not only stay healthy, but to stay healthy as a full-time starter.
It is a forgone conclusion that we will not be adding anymore free agents, unless there are injuries during the season, as there were last season. I just hope that this confidence in our D-line does not come back to bite us, just as it did last year.
During the first three games of the year in 2009, we were giving up the most rushing yards in the league (175 yards+), and it was not a coincidence that we were 0-3 during that time. This rough stretch essentially knocked us out of the playoffs after only three games. I just don’t want to have to watch 13 more games knowing that there will be no playoff run again. That is way too early to be all but mathematically eliminated from the postseason.
If we are not able to control the run, we will not be competitive, regardless of how strong we are in other areas. We are going to have to beat Atlanta if we want to make the playoffs, and I just got done watching the ATL game at home last year where Michael Turner had 111 yards with four minutes to go in the first half. Luckily, he rolled his ankle and missed the rest of the game, and we were able to win, due in large part to his injury.
I really like Louis Leonard. I think the guy was sorely miscast in a 3-4 defense in CLE. I have no doubt that if he can stay healthy, he will man one of the DT spots admirably. Leonard appears to be a far better 3-technique tackle than he is a nose-tackle, and so does Tank Tyler. So the absence of a true NT is what really concerns me.
The reason this is concerning is not because we don’t have a NT who can blow up plays in the backfield and sack the QB, but because we don’t have a NT who can keep interior O-lineman off of Jon Beason and Thomas Davis. Before Hollis Thomas was signed last season, as previously stated, we were 0-3, and allowing the most rushing yards in the NFL. This was because, after some film study, Jon Beason was being covered up every time an opponent ran the ball. If he cannot run free, the best player on our defense is all but neutralized.
With a true NT in there, in the mold of Maake, our front four can tie up all five O-lineman, and our LBs will be able to run around and make plays. If opposing O-lines can block our front four with only four guys, that will allow one of them to get into the second level and put a hat on Jon Beason.
Just about every year that Maake was here, some Panther fans would not understand his importance, and call for him to be benched, traded, released, etc. They did not see him making tackles, making sacks, or being disruptive. This is due to the fact that he drew double teams on nearly every running play, allowing his teammates to make the plays. He was the unsung hero of our defense. With him out of the lineup late in 2008, and of course during the entire 2009 season, we saw just how crucial he was to our defense, particularly in our ability to control the running game.
I look, but I do not see this type of player on the roster.
With the cover-2 scheme that Meeks wants to run, you have to be able to control the run with the front seven. We were not able to do this last season. We saw the defense move to a cover-1, safety in the box scheme in order to keep teams from controlling the line of scrimmage. A big reason the cover-1 was successful was because we had a strong safety who was able to come down into the box and make plays around the line of scrimmage. This player is now gone, and the idea is that we will now move back to a cover 2 shell, with Martin and Godfrey manning the safety spots.
Without a true NT, can we expect to stop the run with our front 7? If not, the luxury of staying in a cover-2 to prevent the big passing plays will be compromised. We will be forced to bring Godfrey into the box. Is the the type of player, being a former college corner, that will be a difference maker as the eight- man at the line of scrimmage?
I fear that whether we run a cover-2, or are again forced into a cover-1, we will not have the ability to get teams into downs and distances that will allow our young, raw pass rushers to excel.
It is a very precarious line of dominoes, and each one will depend on the other to avoid falling. This precarious situation can be solidified with the addition of a NT that will simply command double teams. Some one, at this time, I cannot find on the roster.
Do or do not. There is no try.
So Leonard isnt a NT?
A 330 lb. UT then? He is pretty damn big bro. I think of him as a Kemo with feet. If he was 296lb. Then I would see a void at the NT position.
I do agree that their durability is a question mark though. They will now have an increased work load. But the injury bug doesn’t usually bite us twice in a row…and usually not at the same position. And if it did then we call a fat guy to take up space. The situation just doesn’t scare me.
Hollis Thomas helped us out last year because of his size. That is all he provides to our line. Leonard offers size and can also collapse the pocket. To me this is an upgrade.
Thomas Davis, Jon Beason, Eric Norwood, Dan Conner, James Anderson, and Jamar Williams are our LB corp!!!!
Tank (306) and Leonard (325) will stop the run and collapse the pocket! I promise!
Our front 7 will be BEAST!
by STEVEN 785 on May 12, 2010 5:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I have always assumed Leonard was the NT
he played in Kemo’s spot in his 2 games in the line-up. Whether he’s good at it or not might be another discussion but he seems to fit the position size wise.
He was a 5 technique in CLE
He was a backup DE in a 3-4 when we acquired him. He is best suited as an under-tackle.
Do or do not. There is no try.
Why?
I don’t see how he is best suited as a UT. He is 330lbs. And got a sack from the NT position last year. And this is a Ron Meeks defense.
Now if Trgo was still here then yeah I guess he would go UT. Since he’s not and Meeks doesn’t really like to use guys over 300lbs. we get a happy medium with Leonard. He is big…and quick. He is a Kemo but mobile. He can draw the G/C blocks. And when he isn’t doubled he can get to the QB.
If Kemo could run all of a sudden would he be a better UT? What do you expect you NT to provide? What do you expect your UT to provide? What would limit a player from meeting your expectations?
P.s. I’m not being a smart ass or anything, sorry if it is coming off that way. I’m just trying to understand where you are coming from. You have made great points so far and I’m interfested to hear more on the matter.
Thomas Davis, Jon Beason, Eric Norwood, Dan Conner, James Anderson, and Jamar Williams are our LB corp!!!!
Tank (306) and Leonard (325) will stop the run and collapse the pocket! I promise!
Our front 7 will be BEAST!
by STEVEN 785 on May 13, 2010 10:34 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Interfested is a word look it up.
Jk Jk Jk
Thomas Davis, Jon Beason, Eric Norwood, Dan Conner, James Anderson, and Jamar Williams are our LB corp!!!!
Tank (306) and Leonard (325) will stop the run and collapse the pocket! I promise!
Our front 7 will be BEAST!
by STEVEN 785 on May 13, 2010 10:36 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't mean to say he can't play the nose
But from what I’ve seen of the guy, he plays a little high for a NT. (I’ve watched 5 or so of the CLE games from 2008 on NFL Game Rewind, its awesome, you should check it out).
Plainly, he is just better as a UT. We would be asking him to play a position in which he is less effective.
I see a NT as a guy with more of a fire-hydrant type of build, or a guy that is just massive and immovable. He’s big, but he appears to be neither of those, and had the luxury of being single blocked by an O-Tackle for nearly every play I watched from 2008, and did not “pop” on tape, frankly at all.
In my scheme, a NT would do two things, primarily:
One is to push the interior of the O-line back towards the play. Generally this is done by getting lower than the man (or men) across from you…kinda like shooting for someone’s legs in wrestling.
Objective two is to tie up the center and the weak-side guard. He probably could do the latter, but I’m not completely sold on whether he actually demands a double team, (again, in CLE he was single blocked by an OT as a DE in the 3-4, and was marginally effective).
His ability to get the the QB, as you noted, is exactly why he is far more valuable at the UT, as opposed to being forced into a role that he does not entirely suit.
Do or do not. There is no try.
Alright so he had some technique issues in CLE
Being that we have Tank Tyler at UT I don’t see a better option right now. I hope Baker can coach Leonard up and work out the issue of playing too high.
And Ts are usually pretty big and athletic as well. Cs are usually right at 300. Gs are smaller less athletic blockers than Ts. This coupled with bad technique doesn’t bring up a big red flag for me…something to pay attention to though.
Thomas Davis, Jon Beason, Eric Norwood, Dan Conner, James Anderson, and Jamar Williams are our LB corp!!!!
Tank (306) and Leonard (325) will stop the run and collapse the pocket! I promise!
Our front 7 will be BEAST!
by STEVEN 785 on May 13, 2010 11:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I guess I'm barking up the perverbial hypothetical tree, here
Because we have who we have and that is not going to change unless there are injuries.
It’s just a concern of mine….speaking of watching games from 2008, I saw the Saints game at home, where we destroyed Drew Brees with our D-line, and won the game going away, 30-7. I don’t see our D-line, as it is right now, being able to control a game, as it used to be able to do…much less against the Super Bowl MVP QB.
I sincerely hope I am proven dead wrong, and at that time, will happily eat crow.
Do or do not. There is no try.
LOL
Thomas Davis, Jon Beason, Eric Norwood, Dan Conner, James Anderson, and Jamar Williams are our LB corp!!!!
Tank (306) and Leonard (325) will stop the run and collapse the pocket! I promise!
Our front 7 will be BEAST!
by STEVEN 785 on May 13, 2010 12:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I have concerns as well.
We all should. Mine is if they will hold up for 60 snaps a game for 19 games. But I have faith in our coaching staff to get these guys ready for Sunday.
And since we got rid of all of Foxys vets that he refuses to pull of the field, I expect the guys that give us the best chance to win to be out there. Good competition this year. And it should provide some excellent production out of the players.
Thomas Davis, Jon Beason, Eric Norwood, Dan Conner, James Anderson, and Jamar Williams are our LB corp!!!!
Tank (306) and Leonard (325) will stop the run and collapse the pocket! I promise!
Our front 7 will be BEAST!
by STEVEN 785 on May 13, 2010 12:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Louis Leonard is our nose tackle.
or at least the only guy on the roster with the size and skill set to be our NT.
Right Mix
My fear with this team since John Fox is there is how he consistently plays veterans even if someone behind the starter may be a better option. I am all for letting players earn their stripes, but I also believe players get better when they play. For example, why was Nick Hayden with the first team defense at minicamp??? Dan Conner should have been in the starting line up no later than last year. The guy is a tackling machine. If we start the right mix of guys on the line we will be fine. The expected starting lineup will not cut it as far as pass rush is concerned. Although I wish Brown was bigger, He need to start at right end. He can never justify what you gave up to get him unless he starts. Then lets see what his numbers are at the end. I also believe Their best lineman is a guy they got in sixth round this year in Greg Hardy. A beast when healthy, but may not get a chance to show it this year. I hope he someone wows them enough to at least become a regular on third downs. Eric Norwood is also a beast. The fear I have is that the team’s best pass rushers: Norwood, Brown, and Hardy will never see the field that much and never at the same time!!!
Yeah, if it were me,
I’d experiment with an “aces” package for 3rd and 8+………Brown, C. Johnson, Hardy, and Norwood. But Foxy is probably too rigid to do this….although he did but Pep, Johnson, Brayton, and Brown out there at times last season, but that represented much more experience.
Do or do not. There is no try.
Johnson endorsement
I for one would like to see Ed Johnson and Tank Tyler as the starting tackles. A lot of people don’t know this but Tank was the strongest player at the 2007 combine and played very well at NC State even after Mario Williams and Manny Lawson left. Also I have read a lot of old Indianapolis Blogs and its clear that Ed Johnson was viewed as their best inside lineman by far and best run stopper along with their Bob Sanders.
Are you sure they aren’t talking about the other Johnson?
Thomas Davis, Jon Beason, Eric Norwood, Dan Conner, James Anderson, and Jamar Williams are our LB corp!!!!
Tank (306) and Leonard (325) will stop the run and collapse the pocket! I promise!
Our front 7 will be BEAST!
by STEVEN 785 on May 12, 2010 4:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Hrmm
Maake didn’t play last year but I assume you included him because he was supposed to be the starter.
The D-line sucked last year so take the comparison as you will..
Personally I think Brown will be starting because if you look at his numbers compared to his # of plays he’s pro-bowl level.
The DT position was our biggest weakness because of size, we got pushed all over the field. With these guys healthy that will not happen. I would have liked it if you posted a comparison of these guys weight/height too. I think that will be the real difference inside compared to last year pre Hollis.
Keep in mind too these guys are not rookies they have techniques down and were really just in the wrong systems to utilize their skill set.
That’s precisely why I included Maake. I didn’t think it was truly fair to just look at Hollis Thomas in isolation without also looking at the long time starter.
I love Everette Brown, I’m extremely high on him… but he’s still a little small to be a 3 down DE. Once he adds a little more bulk I think Brown and Johnson will be great bookends.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com
by James The Aussie on May 12, 2010 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Why do you think EB is too small?
He isn’t much smaller than DF now that he put on 10 lbs. And he is bigger than RM. And so is Norwood.
If I could have it my way it would be EB,LL,TT,EN all day.
And when Madden 11 comes out…over! I’m going to really really destroy people online with my Panthers. I’m going for that #1 spot and I’m not letting go.
And for those of you that have Madden 10 and you play franchise mode…sign Leonard from the FA. Put him at DT2 and Tyler at DT1 and see the difference. Leonard makes plays. He tackles backs even away from the LOS. And if he get off a block he can get to the QB. Sick with them on the line!
Thomas Davis, Jon Beason, Eric Norwood, Dan Conner, James Anderson, and Jamar Williams are our LB corp!!!!
Tank (306) and Leonard (325) will stop the run and collapse the pocket! I promise!
Our front 7 will be BEAST!
by STEVEN 785 on May 12, 2010 4:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I know, right!?
I went to ban him and he was already banned
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com
by James The Aussie on May 12, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
His timing was bad
It popped up right in my face…and pissed me off with his digital effin Bear! lol…
Full Offseason
With a full offseason to work with the coaches, I expect nothing but improvement from all the guys,especially those we traded for during the coarse of the season. One thing is for sure, Brian Baker is definitely lighting them up early and often from what observers has been reporting.
Welcome to the blog Felix100
I love Brian Baker. I remember the little clip where he came in to meet Brown at mini-camp last season. He was all business. Shook his hand, said hello and walked away with some comment about "Time to get to work’ or something. I thought “Now that’s a guy that doesn’t take crap off anybody”. Doesn’t hurt that Baker still looks to be an athlete and has a bit of a scowl on his face.
I think Meeks and Baker's second year will make us better in 2010
Good point, Felix. Last year was a new system without the athletes that Meeks like to fit his system. I think there may not be a superstar DL this year, but as a group, I think they will be quicker, and better. One thing to watch is the tackle production of the LB’s. If the DL is better, then Beason, Davis, and Williams/Connor/Anderson should see their tackles go up.
+1000000
Thomas Davis, Jon Beason, Eric Norwood, Dan Conner, James Anderson, and Jamar Williams are our LB corp!!!!
Tank (306) and Leonard (325) will stop the run and collapse the pocket! I promise!
Our front 7 will be BEAST!
by STEVEN 785 on May 12, 2010 4:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Agree.
I love Everette Brown as well and I do like Charles Johnson too, but on pure talent alone and if he has finally gotten his head out of the college clouds then later on down the road it will be Everette Brown and Greg Hardy as the bookends; A nightmare for opposing offenses.
is the stat to look at, for DT's
There’s been a lot of talk about getting John Henderson, but I doubt that’ll happen, as he’s 31, and his production slacked off last year. IMO, I think Louis Leonard may be a better player, plus he’s only 26 – and other than height (Henderson’s 6’7", 328, vs Leonard 6’3", 330) the size is no drop-off.
But let me try to prove my assertion:
I’ve used ProFootballFocus for my stats. Henderson shows a 2009 ratio of 3.2% of Stops per Snap Played (21 of 651) They define a Stop as a solo tackle, including sacks, that constitute an offensive failure. And that’s what a defense wants, isn’t it? – a failure for the offense. What good’s a “tackle,” made after a 5 yard gain?
Now let’s see what the comparable ratio was in 2009 for our DT’s: Nick Hayden? Not so good, just 2.2% (6 stops in 272 snaps) Tank Tyler? Better at 2.8% (4 in 145) But Louis Leonard? a whopping 4.7%! (4 in just 86 snaps) That’s production. So 5 years younger, and better production, than Henderson. I know some will say that it’s a “small sample size” for Leonard, as he only played 2 games, before going on IR — but I think what he did when he was in there has influenced the coaches to look to him in 2010.
Here’s the stat on the other 2 DT’s that come into play for us: Hollis Thomas was statistically just as productive as he appeared to be — he had 21 Stops in 411 Snaps, a fine ratio of 5.1%. Ed Johnson, in 4 games at Indy last year, had 3.6% (5 of 139).
To put all this in the perspective of other well-known DT’s in the league, here are some numbers to compare:
Jonathan Babineaux 4.9%, Albert Haynesworth 3.8%, Haloti Ngata 4.0%, Vince Wilfork 6.0%, and the underrated Kelly Gregg of the Ravens 6.5%.
So much for the DT’s — though DE’s have a different set of performance parameters, and get paid for sacks and QB pressures, here are the numbers for our team’s DE’s — they might surprise you:
Everette Brown 3.5% (14 stops on 401 snaps
Charles Johnson 3.0% (13 on 427)
Tyler Brayton 4.2% (30 on 718)
…and the redoubtable Julius Peppers 3.2% (26 on 806) — note that his number closely approximates the total of Brown and Johnson.
by bigdavis on May 12, 2010 11:06 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
Good stuff
Thomas Davis, Jon Beason, Eric Norwood, Dan Conner, James Anderson, and Jamar Williams are our LB corp!!!!
Tank (306) and Leonard (325) will stop the run and collapse the pocket! I promise!
Our front 7 will be BEAST!
by STEVEN 785 on May 12, 2010 4:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Our defense is going to be awesome.
Why? Because I support Fox/Meeks for President/VP.
Overall Panthers Draft Grade: A
WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!
Did you have to name it that when my heels are hurting like crazy?
This sig is dedicated to those cut in the 2009 purge.
by chinchillas sword on May 12, 2010 12:44 PM EDT reply actions
It could be worse...
You could have an arrow shot through it.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com
by James The Aussie on May 12, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
BTW Rec'd
This sig is dedicated to those cut in the 2009 purge.
by chinchillas sword on May 12, 2010 12:45 PM EDT reply actions
Im still on the fence about the DT’s and not so much our collection of DE’s. I will have to see them play to make a better call as I think right now it could go either way for our DL. BTW, not to sound like a broken record but what about Hollis Thomas coming back on the cheap? Our run D sucked last year and he made an instant impact…..I honestly feel he was a large part of the turnaround. I think he has 1 more good year in him……..
You could see the difference he made the week he came in.
Seemed to be when the D finally started to click last season
With Meeks system
We really dont need big run stopping guys anymore like we had with Maake, just faster guys who can create somewhat of a surge up the middle. The DE’s need to be able to play the run and pass rush so right now it seems Everette Brown isnt fit to start, no matter how much I want him to, unless he can prove he can stop the run. For some reason I dont think hes going to be given the opportunity to show that he can stop the run, but im predicting in limited playing time Brown is going to get 5+ sacks. In general I think the rotation will work and create a solid D-line, not spectacular but definitely solid.
We can't know what's going to happen.
It is a good DL but there is nothing special about it
I think you all will finish middle of the league in most defensive stats
DT key ~ DON'T WORRY .
I have said it many times the DT’s are fine; D-Lew only had .5 sacks last season and well you know about all the other injuries. Plus, H. Thomas will have his phone on if we stuggle and nobody wants him but us due to his age; and the fact that he played pretty well in our system.
Go Panthers.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on May 12, 2010 10:42 PM EDT reply actions
We needed Peppers, Lewis, Kemo out of the way
C. Johnson had 6 sacks in 08 in limited time and I think Pep had 11.5 as a starter and not much of a run stopper imo. Brayton will be steady and E. Brown will be quick on the outside pass rush. Leonard and Tyler at DT with our insane LB corps behind them we will be top 10 defense.
Welcome to the blog!
I hope you’re right about the ‘top 10 defense’ part. As scary as it is to change the entire defensive front, it’s also refreshing to look forward to something other than the status quo.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com
by James The Aussie on May 13, 2010 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Leonard
is the only guy i’m really confident in to start. In Cleveland, he played end and tackle in their 3-4, so he knows how to take up space. While he was with us, I saw him getting some excellent pressure. I think he could be our next Kris Jenkins, a big, penetrating, disrupting guy.
As for the rest of our guys, Tyler played in a 4-3 for a short while in K.C., was still a bust. Ed Johnson is being called round, and Irvin didn’t play at all last year. I’m still concerned.
Good bye #43. Good luck in Chicago.
Tyler a bust?
KC moved to the 3-4 when Pioli arrived in 2009.
Tank Tyler had 17 starts at DT in a 4-3 and in 2008 as a starter he amassed 41 tackles. In Damione Lewis’ best season as a Panther he had 43 tackles.
So the next logical progression is to look at sacks, of which Tyler had none… however, in 2008 the Chiefs had no pass rush to speak of. They only totaled 10 sacks as a team. Other than Glenn Dorsey with 46 tackles not Chiefs DL had more tackles than Tyler. So, if the only threat on the Chiefs D-line was at the two DTs isn’t the natural assumption that the line was pinched on a consistent basis to keep Dorsey and Tyler in check?
I don’t really believe it’s fair to say:
Tyler played in a 4-3 for a short while in K.C., was still a bustbecause I don’t believe the statistics support it.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com
by James The Aussie on May 13, 2010 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions
THANK YOU!!! +100000000000000000000000
Damn I’m going to Love these guys together.
Thomas Davis, Jon Beason, Eric Norwood, Dan Conner, James Anderson, and Jamar Williams are our LB corp!!!!
Tank (306) and Leonard (325) will stop the run and collapse the pocket! I promise!
Our front 7 will be BEAST!
by STEVEN 785 on May 13, 2010 10:49 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
"however in 2008 the Chiefs had no pass rush to speak of"
And we think Tyler is going to help our pass rush? Tyler underperformed in K.C., bust was maybe a strong word, but he certainly didn’t stand out.
Good bye #43. Good luck in Chicago.
by Flowing Willow on May 14, 2010 3:50 AM EDT up reply actions
The idea is that good ends who get to the QB need to be accounted for. Julius Peppers was consistently doubled with help from the guard, which could be a justification why Damione Lewis was able to get sacks… he had less resistance.
I think Tyler would have posted sacks in 2008 if they had a DE able to get to the QB
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com
by James The Aussie on May 14, 2010 7:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Tamba Hali was a pretty decent end.
Good bye #43. Good luck in Chicago.
by Flowing Willow on May 15, 2010 6:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Not in 2008
He only had 3 sacks in 15 starts
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com
by James The Aussie on May 15, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Cause he was the only decent player on the line
Dorsey was an injured rookie, Tank wasn’t a stud, just a rotational guy at that point, and their other end was Jason Babin I think. They could leave a LT on him and chip with a TE, just in case.
Good bye #43. Good luck in Chicago.
by Flowing Willow on May 16, 2010 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Precisely my point
If Hali was good enough to command a double on his own (like Peppers always did) I think you’d see Tyler get some sacks like Damione Lewis did on our D-line
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com
by James The Aussie on May 16, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm fine with Leonard/Tyler
What scares me is that both of them ended up on IR when they started getting significant playing time.
Fair point
That’s definitely the risk… we can only hope they’ll stay healthy.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com
by James The Aussie on May 13, 2010 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Couldn't that happen (an injury) to anybody, though?
I guess I’m saying that they must be judged to be fully recovered from theirs, or else the staff would have addressed a need in the draft.
Psst...watch out...
…there’s somebody in the shadows, following you :-)
It's probably Shockers
Knee jerk reaction - adj. 1. an immediate unthinking emotional reaction produced by an event or statement to which the reacting person is highly sensitive. 2. a facilitator of long threads on Cat Scratch Reader and similar blogs.
LMFAO!
Thanks to the Denver Broncos, my sanity (what's left of it, at least) will remain intact for 2010.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA
Wow that was great Sniff
Thomas Davis, Jon Beason, Eric Norwood, Dan Conner, James Anderson, and Jamar Williams are our LB corp!!!!
Tank (306) and Leonard (325) will stop the run and collapse the pocket! I promise!
Our front 7 will be BEAST!
by STEVEN 785 on May 13, 2010 10:51 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Could be
But I’ve got an eerie feeling it’s Michael Turner … either that or the ghost of Paul Lynde.
LMAO... but can't be Paul Lynde's ghost.
He’s been possessing Tony Cornholer for many years now.
"Stay thirsty my friends"
Hmmm
“So hard to tell anything about linemen this time of year, and it borders on being useless in terms of evaluation. However, it’s clear the Panthers have to hope for breakout seasons from Tank Tyler and Corvey Irvin and a bounce-back from Ed Johnson or they could be in line for a 2009-level disaster in the interior defensive line.
The true and concerning statement about this defensive line? Bow-legged run-stopper Louis Leonard is the known commodity. That’s right, the guy who started one game before breaking his leg on the final play of the Atlanta game."
—Darin Gantt on the D-line at mini-camp.
So I’m not the only tard that has legitimate concerns, apparently.
Do or do not. There is no try.
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