1st free agent target emerges
According the Darin Gantt via sources the Panthers are in discussion to sign DE Marques Douglas who was with the NY Jets in 2009. They have not yet scheduled a visit with the Greensboro, NC native. Most likely Douglas would be looked at for veteran depth, not a starting position.
Douglas is a 10 year veteran. His career stats are as follows: 435 tackles, 20.5 sacks, 7 forced fumbles.
4 months ago
James The Aussie
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He would make sense as a replacement for Brayton
if he signs with Seattle
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
I want Brayton over Douglas
He is 2.5 years younger, used to our system/coaches, and coming off his best year in the NFL.
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Mar 6, 2010 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
I also want Kevin Walter
but will settle for Chris Chambers.
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Mar 6, 2010 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
If the plan is to start Everette Brown and Charles Johnson...
do they need to come up with something better?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com
by James The Aussie on Mar 6, 2010 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
They combined for a whopping 6.5 sacks, and 32 tackles last year.
Why would we need something better?
Seriously, neither of them have proven they should be a starter. Starting both the same year is completely a role of the dice.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
johnson was hurt...and brown started to adjust to the NFL towards the end of the season
not to mention when johnson played most of the 2008 season he was second on the team with 6 sacks…and he didnt even start
by carolinabrave89 on Mar 6, 2010 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
Still, starting both of them will NOT scare anybody.
We have nobody on the bench, no 3rd down DE, no proven DTs. Seems a little over-confident to think 2 guys who have only been decent backups can just jump in and carry the full load.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Do you still believe in Santa too?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
That belief is usually based on tangible facts
I “hope” the d-line dominates. Do I believe they can with the current roster, No.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
My belief is based on their 2009 stats.
I liked their performance, you didn’t. That’s where our opinions differ :P.
I liked their performances fine
for backups
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Which they were.
So, based on the marked improvement a lot of our defense had under Ron Meeks as starters (Thomas Davis on pace for career highs, Chris Harris having career highs in most areas despite missing 3 games, Jon Beason posting career high in tackles) I don’t see any reason to doubt the two young pass rushers will be able to step up.
Are they going to have a Julius Peppers (when he feels like it) type impact? Maybe not… but I think you’re going to be surprised. We can revisit this mid season.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com
by James The Aussie on Mar 7, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sure we'll revisit it often :)
I see it this way. For our DE’s alone to perform better than 2010, we need the following…
Johnson and Brown to each have 8.5 sacks or more each and about 40+ tackles each, to out perform Pepper/Brayton’s 16 sacks 72 tackles.
Then we’ll need to find a couple DE’s on the bench (right now we only have Taylor and Eric Moore) who can get at least 4 sacks and 25 sacks each.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
- whooops, 4 sacks 25 tackles each :)
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Look at it this way (and I'll bet you haven't yet)
I compiled the stats on Snaps played, Sacks, QB Hits, Tackles/Assists, and QB Pressures (also called Hurries)
I did this for Peppers, Brown, Brayton, and Charles Johnson, who among the 4 of them comprised our platoon at DE (I omitted Hilee Taylor, as he only took 15 snaps.)
You may be surprised to see that Peppers took 806 of a total of 2,375 snaps taken by those 4 guys. That’s 33.9% of the total.
His sack total of 10 is 47.6% of the 21 recorded by our DEs, and that is the ONLY number he recorded that’s anywhere above the number per play, that’s markedly better than the other guys.
His QB hits were 10 of 30, or 33.3%.
His T/A total was 42, or only 31.3% of the 134 the four recorded among them.
His QB Pressures were 33, or 25.8% of the 92 they recorded.
So other than a few extra sacks, it’s not too hard to imagine the other guys can’t divide up his numbers in these categories of defense. And that’s what we were talking about.
I grant you he made 2 INTs and a few fumble recoveries, but those plays are rare, and don’t justify paying him $20 million.
Oh, and a couple other minor numbers to consider: among the four DEs, they had 83 Stops (“The number of solo defensive tackles made which constitute an offensive failure, including sacks”) — Peppers had just 26 of those, or 31.3%. And the four missed a total of 8 tackles, but 4, or half, of those were by Peppers.
http://www.profootballfocus.com/cstats.php?tab=by_team&season=2009&teamid=5&stype=a&stats=d
So we each can draw our own conclusions about just how much of a Superman he was (and remember that 2009 was one of his GOOD years, not the norm) — but I maintain that the other snaps taken by the other guys can result in as good as, or close to, what he gave us.
by bigdavis on Mar 7, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This won't easily translate to 2010, here's why...
Pep got his while sometimes dealing with double teams, and with DC’s game planning around him. Likewise Johnson and Brown will no longer have a guy like Pep to take the the pressure off of them.
How can we assume they will perform the same, for a longer period of time, against stiffer competition?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
- meant offensive coordinators, not DC’s
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
OK - I see we disagree, and won't convince the other.
That’s ok. I’m not like Procton. and I don’t think you are, either. Let’s just agree to disagree, and see how it shakes out. We both want the best for our team.
It’s not a matter of being proven right, or wrong. Just a difference of opinion.
Ahhh... I wasn't getting ready to cave
With your next argument. Oh well I’ll keep being stubborn. ;)
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
You are that.
Just ;ike I was with MP, I give up.
Neither of them were starters ST, which really slants those stats in your favor.
If your break down their sacks and tackles per snap their numbers are quite impressive.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com
by James The Aussie on Mar 7, 2010 2:16 AM EST up reply actions
As posted with a link to ProFootballFocus.com
Panther sack comparisons
Sacks, hits on the QB, and QB pressures are all measurable stats for DE’s.
When you compare Peppers, in these figures, to Charles Johnson and Everette Brown (as a ratio of the snaps they played) there’s not as much falloff as one might believe, given Pep’s inflated reputation.
Pep’s numbers were 10-10-33 for those 3 categories, but he played 806 snaps in ’09.
Johnson had 4-2-21, but in only 427 snaps.
Brown had 3-7-13, but in just 401 snaps.
(As a comparison, Robert Mathis -who admittedly was aided by lining up opposite Freeney – IF he becomes available would be a great replacement for Peppers, IMO. He had 10-11-37 (BETTER PRODUCTION THAN PEP) in just 608 snaps.
Conclusion: I think the defensive coaching staff feels that Johnson and Brown will increase their numbers of sacks, hits, and hurries as they see more chances, with Peppers gone.
by bigdavis on Mar 5, 2010 11:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
by bigdavis on Mar 7, 2010 3:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Great analysis BigD
I feel the same way…plus the thought of getting Mathis sounds good too
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Yeah - you guys have convinced me that I want Mathis.
I hope we get him, because he would really be an impact player for us.
Draft Gilyard!
I don't get it? This makes them look worse.
Peppers in 806 snaps… 10-10-33
Johnson/Brown combined for 828 snaps 7-9-34
Clearly given the same number of snaps, Peppers out performs both of them together. Not to mention you are leaving out the snaps of whoever was opposite Pep.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Didn't say either was better.
Just that doubling either’s snaps (to reach Pep’s) wouldn’t show much of a dropoff from his numbers. And there’s something to be said for being able to step up one’s play, if given a bigger chance to get into the flow of the game as a full-time starter — plus there’s the extra year’s experience factor. Neither of these two has reached his full potential, IMO.
But we shall see.
If Pep is gone..
His 806 snaps need be split and added to their 400, giving EACH of them 800 snaps, instead of their 800 combined. You can’t convince me that Pep never once got to a QB just a little bit quicker and took what would have been a sack/hit for Johnson/Brown.
So, if that were the case and they maintained the same production, we’d be looking at Johnson: 8-4-42, Brown: 6-14-26, a combined 14-18-68.
Looking at what they did, I don’t see much of a drop off. Looking at what they can do based upon what they did in their limited snaps, I’m very positive about next year.
Remember, we are not replacing Pep with 2 DEs
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
With guys who have never started
And always played behind or beside a ProBowler who often was drawing double teams.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
So I should immediately discount some of their stats?
Despite the fact they’ve not even been given the chance to prove themselves without Pep?
Yes
To think you can just double the snaps and automatically double the stats leaves out way to many factors.
I’m almost willing to bet that our current starting front four are not all on our roster.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
They're probably not.
But I’m not going to say that I can accurately subtract such and such stats because Pep is gone.. That’s just disrespectful to them and the effort they made last season.
You guys automatically assume if they now just play every down, those stats will multiply out
Take Damione Lewis for example. As a backup for a ProBowler, he averaged 4 sacks, 14 tackles. As a starter sacks went down, tackles up… 2 sacks, 31 tackles.
Stat math doesn’t show the whole picture. They will not be playing on fresh legs, opposite or behind a multi-ProBowler who DC’s are totally focused on. And as of now, they will have a much weaker supporting cast.
I’m not saying it’s impossible, just that you have to look at the big picture and be realistic.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I call that just being pessimistic..
There’s nothing that lends to the idea they can’t continue their same level of production, so why invent them? If they were already doing it, I’m certainly not going to say “Yeah, he did it for 400 but he can’t do it for 800.” We don’t know that. I’m going to support them before I discount them.
I agree with the second paragraph but I don’t expect it will have much of an impact.. Do I expect an exact duplicate next year as last, only extrapolated? Of course not but if they get close (or exceed), I won’t complain.
Yes there is!
Playing opposite or behind a ProBowler takes most of the focus and degree of competition off of you. Pep drew double teams and DC’s game planed around him not Johnson/Brown. They are no longer afforded that luxury, or the luxury of coming off the bench with fresh legs. And they will also have to carry the load of weak DTs.
They will have to seriously step up their play to make this D-line better.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Ok, I'll give you that.
I suppose I just expect Brown to step it up this season and be the DE we were hoping he’d become.
I'm not saying he can't
Just that our current front four have yet to prove anything. So we are essentially rolling the dice with young blood. I’m also not convinced that are starting 4 are currently on the roster.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
You're right.
“Just that our current front four have yet to prove anything.”
That is exactly why I’m so excited for the coming season! It’s fun to speculate on what they can do. Rather they do it or not, only time will tell.
Don't take this the wrong way
I’d rather take a chance with these guys then continue with the circus we had with Pep. BUT… Chicago right now has something to be excited about. They add a guy who is a proven game changer. We are just excited because we are loyal fans with a lot of hope.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Sure..
We have a lot of upside to speculate about.. they have a lot of speculating to do about how many snaps he’s going to actually play. It’s all speculation. I’m sure Pep has a monster year over there but I expect Johnson & Brown to also have a great years. You’re dead on with that last part.
Peppers is a potential hall of famer
Whether he took plays off, or whether like was recently pointed out, that was just his reputation carried over from college… He still could dominate, and won’t be easily replaced
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Peppers or the rest of your team...
Chicago is as good as dead long term. They now have 0 flexibility and will probably be underwater when the new cap is put in place. L. Smith is just trying to save his job this year.
I agree
They are making exactly the mistake that Richardson is trying to avoid. But he’s looking at long term. And we are talking short term… thinking by cutting some of our better talent, and signing no one, we are magically better than last year. That makes no sense.
We desperately need a #2 WR, and 2-3 starting quality DE’s to be better in 2010. That is with Matt Moore being somewhat of a wild card.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Our "desparate needs" will be taken care of.
By draft picks, which has always been a strong point of Hurney’s, and by the former rookies, and 2nd and 3rd year guys stepping up. That’s what happens — experience creates new heroes for us to applaud.
Our first rounders have stepped up
We all have our fingers crossed for Brown. But are you saying guys like Corey Irvin, Fiametta, Sherrod Marting, Duke Robinson, Conner are all going to start and play better than the guys who were cut?
We usually try this with one or two guys… but this year we have a lot of holes to fill.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Not as sure about WR now...
Moore had good chemistry with Jarrett and the TE. We might want to look more closely at DE as you mentioned. Anyhow, it all depends on the talent that is available when we pick.
I think we need an upgrade at:
DE, DT and WR
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I halfway agree with that..
I believe those are positions we should look into drafting or signing a FA, but I’d personally not use the term “upgrade” :) (unless by upgrade you meant add depth to). If we can get Eric Norwood, I’d add LB to that list as well.
Hmmm....
Well I guess if that is the best that they can come up with to replace Brayton is a 33yr old DE that is basically nothing more than a run stopper then we have to take what we can get. Douglas is simply a Brayton with more mileage on the tires.
I guess Brayton is looking for a multiyear deal and the Panthers are not willing to give it to him.
Only thing that is working for Panthers to sign Douglas is that he is from Greensboro, NC and the local ties could get them a hometown discount which is why they are going this route.
Doesn’t matter much though b/c he is not going to start this season for us; E. Brown and C. Johnson are our starting DE and Douglas would be our top backup for both positions. So as a depth pickup I am fine with it but not as a starter for us though.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Mar 6, 2010 5:48 PM EST reply actions
YAY!
This is just the splash in FA i was looking for =P!!! Just kidding…maybe a decent backup but i feel brayton is better…the past few days have been brutal. I don’t feel like we are getting any better…thats for sure…
I think I'd rather just stick with Brayton.
He’s had a year in Meeks system and he wants to be here.
Brayton... Douglas
Neither one makes us any better. This is just filler.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
per Darin Gantt
“They talked, but not right #s RT @panther1gb89 What happend with Brayton, did they even offer him a new deal or just let him walk?”
Let's see if he leaves Seattle without a deal
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Would be a shame.
He’s very productive as a run stopper, and never takes a play off — plus, he practically begged to be able to stay here. Fingers crossed that he resigns here.
I'm probably alone here
but I’m actually excited about our DEs this year. I felt that both guys were starters in a rotational role last year, and combine that with maybe a FA and some youth for depth, DE is not really a worry for me.
by the bomb dot com on Mar 6, 2010 7:27 PM EST reply actions
Starting either one of them opposite a proven starter would be fine
But to start both of them the same year? And on a line with no proven DTs either? I don’t see anything to be excited about.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Whatever happened to the Youth Movement?
We need to get guys that are young and have some upside. Why would we release guys like Tyler Brayton, Jake Delhomme, and Da’il Diggs and then run off and get someone who’s on the back end of his career?
Don’t do it Carolina! You can do better!
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
by Revshawn on Mar 6, 2010 11:32 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
It wasn’t that the guys we released were old, it was that they were old and making more money than they were worth at their age. If we can get a guy like this on the cheap simply for depth reasons, I don’t see the issue.
by SlayerGhaleon on Mar 7, 2010 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
I prefer a guy with upside.
We’re going to have two new DE’s next year that, while they have undeniable talent, are both unproven over the course of 16 games. If we’re going to have unproven talent and try to develop a new star at DE, I’d rather have a good group of DE’s to have a competition in training camp. If we wanted to go with a guy like Douglas which we pretty much know what he’s got, wouldn’t it have been better to just sign Tyler Brayton back to begin with?
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
I agree
Bring back Tyler Brayton!
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Mar 7, 2010 2:14 AM EST up reply actions
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