Panther's Question of the Week: What would it take to break up Double Trouble?
by James The Aussie on Feb 9, 2010 8:53 AM EST
400 comments
This week's question focuses on an area of strength for the Carolina Panthers, the running game. We all know what an achievement it was for the Panthers to have two 1,100 yard backs in the 2009 season with both DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart proving how good each of them can be as a feature back, the former being named to the Pro Bowl.
I know the conventional wisdom is 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' but what if a team offered the Panthers an amazing deal for one of their running backs? Without a horse's head placed in one's bed, could we be made an offer we couldn't refuse?
So Carolina Panthers' fans,would you entertain the idea of trading either DeAngelo Williams or Jonathan Stewart in the trade I'm going to outline after the jump?
While I went back and forth on what deal would be appropriately large enough that it could peak the Panther nation's interest there was one deal my mind kept coming back to... Ricky Williams. When Williams came into the league the New Orleans Saints were so smitten with him that they traded their entire draft and then some to aquire the running back out of Texas. They gave up a total of eight different draft picks including two first rounders... it seems almost comical by today's standards.
Now, we're obviously not going to see a deal like that again. Many credit the Ricky Williams trade as being both the move that sealed Mike Ditka's demise as well as the trade that set the Saints back 6 years; though I get the feeling they rebounded okay.
For the purpose of this discussion I'm going to propose the following trade, based partly on the Ricky Williams deal and we can hash out the merits of such a trade in the comments.
Carolina Panthers trade DeAngelo Williams OR Jonathan Stewart to Team X for:
2010 1st round pick, 2011 1st round pick, 2010 3rd round pick, 2010 5th round pick
Would you pull the trigger and break up Double Trouble?
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I would think about it...
It would take a Hershel Walker-esque deal for me to part ways with one of them though. But the deal you outlined would be worth considering.
I guess the real question would be: is there a player worth going after in the first round that would help the team even if we lost D-Will or J-Stew? Who do we get? Do we replace the RB? Do we nab a WR when we could get one in the 2nd round anyway b/c the WR’s are so deep this year?
I think I would require a player and picks – just so I knew I was at least getting one proven commodity. Maybe Calvin Johnson or Andre Johnson instead of the 1st round pick and it would be more inticing to me.
There wouldn't have to be a player worth going after
Draft picks are like gold in this league. You could trade them for proven players… get a strong #2 receiver, another good RB, and probably still have picks leftover.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I wouldnt
Remember that this is the first time in History that 2 RBs from the same team went over 1000 yrds in a year. What we need to do is make sure they have a very good line in front of them. Good running opens up the passing game.
Excellent point, and welcome to the blog!
Just to clarify though, the two 1,000 yard rusher mark has been achieved three other times:
- Csonka and Morris in ’72
- Harris and Bleier in ’76
- Mack and Byner in ’85
However, Double Trouble were the 1st to run for 1,100 yards each.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Feb 9, 2010 9:08 AM EST up reply actions
you forgot Jacobs and Ward in '08 for the giants
by pantherpride on Feb 9, 2010 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
I did… thank you.
Add Jacobs and Ward to the list.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Feb 9, 2010 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah
Lets get some respect for the GMEN!
Aussie! Aussie! Aussie! Oi ! Oi ! Oi ! Aiming for ONE medal in the winter Olympics.
by ChuckyofNorris on Feb 10, 2010 3:30 AM EST up reply actions
stew's rookie year
they were the first ever to 800 and 10 TDs each. every year has been a record setting year.
I knew that
It was a miss type. I knew it was 1100 not 1000 yrds.
Are we trying to set RB records or win a Championship?
Only one of these guys can be on the field at once. It’s more important to fill other holes.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Or can they.....? >:3
Oh wait I forgot! Davidson couldn’t design a new scheme if a light bulb hit him in the face.
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
Nor can Fox!
I’d like to see Sutton and DeAngelo in the backfield together… Especially with Sutton being such a good blocker as well.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
So, Peyton Manning, Reggie Wayne and 3 1st round picks isn't good enough?
Notice the poll said “any trade”
Anyone who said no lacks reading comprehension skills.
Or has enough common sense to rationalize what is at least somewhat possible..
Though I see where you’re going, you are correct in a literal sense.
I voted “NO” because there’s not a single offer any team would be willing to give up that I’d take for either of our backs. As great as they are, I’m not concerned with breaking records (as someone mentioned above) but I am concerned with letting two backs whom feed off of one another go out there and take us to a championship. Bringing in a valid 2nd threat for Moore would drastically open running lanes.. Barring any unforeseen event (injury, etc) there’s no doubt in my mind that both of our backs will break their respective rushing totals for this season, next season. I just want them to be on our team when they do it.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
I would...
…but it would have to be a deal that no sane GM would make :p I think a couple of first rounds, couple of second rounds, and maybe a player.
no maybe about it
There would have to be a proven player in the mix- draft picks are no guarantees… see Jarrett, Dwayne… throw an up and coming #2 receiver in the mix, with game experience, skills, and production, plus some top picks…then maybe… but I still wouldn’t pull the trigger! We have too many question marks and they aren’t any of them…
no way
no team would offer that much nowadays and throw a player in there, except for whatless GMs.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 9, 2010 9:27 AM EST up reply actions
Too bad Al Davis doesn’t have anyone good on this team then….
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Well they do have....
Nnamdi Asomugha. And that’s about it.
No sane GM would trade anything more than one 1st round, if that
When is the last time a a 1st round pick was traded for a RB? RBs have become easy to draft in this league recently. 2 ProBowl RBs on the same team is over kill… especially since you can only play one at a time.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Sure you can only play one running back per play, in most sets… Though, if we’re going that far, we might as well look at who gets the ball.. Only one receiver can catch the ball per play, so why do we have multiple? For options. So why do we have multiple running backs? For options.
If our coaching staff were intelligent, we’d incorporate a few new sets that featured both backs on the field at the same time.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
I don't follow you
The Panthers typically run 2 wide, 1 RB sets… which is 3 options(not counting TEs). However if you don’t have a decent #2 receiver it’s only 2 options. Point is you need play-makers on the field.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
No, look at the Saints in Bush's rookie year
they mixed in Mcalister and Bush in some formations. We can do that too, it’s just a question of if we will do that.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 1:38 AM EST up reply actions
We won't with this staff
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
Too bad Davidson lacks creativity.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 1:57 AM EST up reply actions
I would take it provided only...
if the third was a secound round pick and how high the First round pick is. Maybe the 49ers pick. because there is a player called C. J. Spiller in the draft this year. He is so much like D. Williams if not better, and the other second round would be used for any first round grade DE or WR that falls to the second round. I believe sutton can only setin, and i also believe Stewart could carry the load. He ran for over 1100 yards on a bum achilles, who knows what he can do when healthy. I would take the deal if it’s 1st round pick 2010 (between 9-15), 2nd round pick 2010, 4th round pick 2010, 1st round pick 2011, and our 7th round pick 2010 (since we are going to get compensationary picks for Frank Omiyale, Hantgner, Bridges, and Ken Lucas) since we didn’t sign any free agent of equal value. That’s my take on it.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 9, 2010 9:19 AM EST reply actions
I have to heavily disagree about spiller be "so much like deangelo if not better"
I’d just like to point out that they are actually not very alike at all. Deangelo is actually much more of a complete back. He can tear it up between the tackles and can cut back. He is also much bigger (5’9" 215-220 lbs) where as spiller is much smaller (I think he is only 200). Why risk a sure bet like Deangelo, for a possible bust (see Darren McFadden) in CJ Spiller…I know we’d be getting other picks but this just doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t think Double Trouble should be touched!!!!
by SouthernPanther on Feb 9, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
I understand
But he can bulk up and still be fast. The only problems i see with Spiller is the injury problems. He was always injured every season. also he’s nothing like McFadden, maybe Reggie Bush, but not like McFadden.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 9, 2010 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
CJ Spiller reminds me of a slightly slower Chris Johnson.
His best bet would be to start out as a complimentary to a big power back. I’ll bet you guys that he ends up somewhere like Washington or Seattle.
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
Agreed. He can't be "D.Will if not better"
Deangelo also has great patience and vision as a runningback. No runningback in next year’s draft can replace half of Deangelo.
wow
Its sad to see some people wouldn’t take a 2 first round deal. There is no player on this team who should be kept with 2 first rounders on the table. If you as an organization are not comfortable enough in your staff to select a player in the first round who will be an immediate impact then you should fire your scouts. This is especially true for runningbacks. The key to any running game is the line, the majority of runningbacks in the NFL can run over people once they hit the second level. Sutton can easily handle the roll of a backup.
Exactly!
More than having 2 star RBs, this team needs a #2 receiver and if Pep leaves, some help on the d-line. With the ridiculous amount of picks being suggested, we could fill WR, DE and another RB though picks or by trading picks for players.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Have you considered we could get both a #2 and defensive line depth without trading Double Trouble?
Those two are our identity as a team, if we win the Super Bowl it will be because they ran over every team that tried to stop them. It’s a two back league, so what if the two backs are Pro Bowlers, you called that overkill Southy. I see a lot of people complain that we don’t blow anyone out, well overkill would help us do that.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 1:41 AM EST up reply actions
We won't "ran over every team" without a passing game
To take pressure off our running game. Our line is a large part of DWill and Stews success. They will open holes for other RBs too. But NOT if teams constantly stack the box because they are not afraid of our passing game.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
And Moore can provide a passing game
Just get him a decent #2 in free agency or the draft. We don’t need to have a killer passing attack like the Cards or Saints, we just need one that can be counted on to convert the occassional third and medium and provide a vertical threat.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 1:59 AM EST up reply actions
From what you're saying..
It would seem that busts do not exist in the NFL. Just because a player goes high doesn’t mean he’s going to be a pro bowler… and I can’t think of a single team with scouts who can draft pro bowl players with every pick. Mistakes happen no matter who you are.
Meanwhile, we’re giving someone else a proven running back just to grab a 50/50 chance. I wouldn’t take 2 first rounders, I doubt I’d even take 3. Too much of a pointless risk, in my view.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
We don't need a ProBowler, especially one on the bench
We need more play-makers on the field.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
i doubt that would ever happen
those are franchise players for those two clubs besides we need to see what Matt Moore can do.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 9, 2010 9:46 AM EST up reply actions
This is a QB league... RBs are more easily replaced.
Nobody would trade any guys like Brees, Manning, Rivers for any RB straight up.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 9, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I big negatory for me
We made two very good draft picks. Why trade one for more draft picks that could be busts? Take the bird in hand versus 2 in the bush. Keep them both for as long as it is financially possible.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
And risk losing one of them to FA?
You’d also have the option of trading those picks for multiple proven players.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Here's what I'd want for D will
Stewart for me has more potential but anyway. A 2010 1st a dominat WR and 2x 2011 1st and maybe a later round draft pick. So either pay way un-reasonably or don’t get them!
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 9, 2010 9:54 AM EST reply actions
Maybe
Start negotiating with a 2010 2nd and 3rd and then maybe negotiate down or they might actually accept it?
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 9, 2010 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
Finding a #2 receiver is more important than maintaining a ProBowl caliber RB as a backup
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I disagree..
But that’s just because of the way my luck goes. I’d trade one, the other would come up injured, then I’d be out of two great running backs and wondering why I ever screwed myself like that.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
Again, 2 great RBs didn't get us to the playoffs this year
Take our o-line as an example, not dominant backups performed well. The goal is to maximize talent on the field, and to add a lot of depth with potential talent. But trying to add or maintain depth with star talent, will cost you too much in other key areas.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
We can get a good 2 in the second.
Or D-line depth have you seen next years WR class??
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 10, 2010 2:37 AM EST up reply actions
He's not a backup.
He’s #1b in our scheme, and they will get the necessary carries so why is this an issue?
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 1:42 AM EST up reply actions
that wouldn't happen
Andre Johnson is not going anywhere for the next at least 4 years. Texans are not going to trade him for even Peyton Manning or Drew Brees or Even D.Will and beefstew. He is their passing game and the only threat they have. It’s just like saying we should have traded Steve Smith in 2006 for Shuan Alexander or someone who was good then. it wouldn’t happen cos Smitty was our Offense then.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 9, 2010 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
I wouldn’t trade them for anything at this point. I do not trust this team enough to break something up that is working. These two are the bread and butter of this team. We win games becuase of them, and to break them up would more than likely destroy a fundamental strength of this team.
I realize we can’t keep them forever, however I wouldn’t pull the trigger on any trade right now.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Then why didn't we make the playoffs this year?
Because more importantly we need a passing game. We are FAR better off finding a serviceable RB backup and a strong #2, then we are with our current configuration.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
We can find a #2 receiver without breaking up Double Trouble
What is your definition of #2? Do you think guys like Kevin Walter, Golden Tate, Brandon Lafell, Arrelious Benn, Jason Avant, Donte Stallworth, Torry Holt, etc can’t be #2’s? They will be easily available.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 1:45 AM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't for picks only.
We used a 1st to get DWill. That means we’d gain one 1st rd pick, along with the 3rd and 5th pick, which are risky at best, to whether they’d yield significant value.
Beyond that, these guys feed off each other. They elevate each others game. They unselfishly share the spotlight (which is rare for two 1st rd. talents). Their 2 back tandem is more effective because of the combination of DWill’s speed and vision, and the power of JStew. Also having the ability to split carries between these guys improves their durability and is going to help extend their “prime” years.
what would help extend their prime years
Is more help on the outside. If they were seeing less defenders up on the line of scrimmage, they wouldn’t get punished as often.
It is easy to groom a good RB
Especially behind an offensive line like ours. NFL caliber running backs, even the more mediocre of them, can break through holes for big gains when you have pile drivers like we do in front of them. Look at the success of Chester Taylor in Minnesota and Cedric Benson in Cincinnati. We can breed running backs all day here in Charlotte, and keep trading them for positions of need.
We are lucky indeed that we have two stud RBs behind a great offensive line. We need to leverage that trading power and fill holes at other positions.
My only worry is if we trade one of them, and the Matt Moore thing doesn’t pan out, then what? Ride either D-Will or Stew into the ground for an entire season? This team would sink IMO if that happened.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
I worry about it too. There is no doubt losing either one would be a temporary hit to our running game. However, we have proven that we can take young Running backs and help them achieve immediate impacts. Stewart was a huge impact in his first year. Granted, he is 1st round talent, but beyond him… our scheme works. Look at Sutton, he has been performing above his expectations in limited work… and he was an UDFA. If we get a host of draft picks in exchange, or better yet, a proven player at one of our positions of need and some draft picks, I think we can emerge as a better team. I think we could easily take a 3rd round talent or higher in the draft at RB and turn him into yet another success story at the position.
I disagree
We haven’t had this kind of success in a long time. DeAngelo really wasn’t a home run hitter until late in the season after JStew got drafted. We just had great picks with DeAngelo and JStew. JStew could’ve gone higher if it weren’t for his injury. Plus, we wouldn’t have drafted JStew in the first place if we had such a confidence in our running game.
I wouldn’t call Chester Taylor a success story. He’s only had a 1000+ rush yard season in 06, and I wouldn’t call his 300+ season a success. If Cedric played so well with the Bengals, then how did Forte play so well with the Bears in his rookie year and how did the Bengals struggle with their running game before 09 season?
If Moore doesn't pan out we will lose despite Double Trouble
We just experienced this with Jake! It doesn’t matter if you have 1million ProBowl RBs on the bench… You must also have a passing game to win.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Actually, this is wrong
we won 8 games this year with one of the worst passing games in the league. It shouldn’t be that hard to find a kerry collins(titans, giants) or trent dilfer(bucs, ravens). A below avg QB could win 10 games on our team.
How do you figure that?
8 games is nothing to hang your hat on. AND Moore was putting up insane numbers… FAR from “worst passing game”.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
If Moore doesn't pan out
we are screwed even with a Pro Bowl receiving corps. Then we can count on the ground game to keep us in games, because it is more of a reliable denominator than an excellent passing attack.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 1:47 AM EST up reply actions
Moore is "moore" (lol) likely to succeed with good WRs
His supporting cast is already strong. Having great RBs and a great running game will help any QB. But we need to get some younger weapons on the outside, we cannot wait forever.
Right, which is why all the successful teams this year were run first teams
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
Baltimore, New York, Cincinnatti
The Saints ranked seventh on the ground. New York is a PRIME example of what I’m talking about. Average QB, had flashes of brilliance, double headed attack on the ground, killer defense, solid deep threat and a reliable #2. We will have that next year, and considering our pass defense is better than NY’s, we can handle most of the passing attacks in the league.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:01 AM EST up reply actions
NYG?
You want us to be like a team that struggled much of the season. Did they even make the playoffs?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 11, 2010 1:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Jets
You know, the team that made the conference championship.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
If Houston had a ground game
they’d be 13-3.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:01 AM EST up reply actions
Goodson missed this memo
Apparently Mike Goodson missed this Memo…I haven’t seen him do squat behind our line. I swear if someone breaths on him he goes down. He doesn’t fit our running style at all. I wonder if we could trade him for a late round pick and cut our losses. I like Sutton much much more than Goodson.
by SouthernPanther on Feb 9, 2010 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
He is stall raw, and we knew that when we drafted him
I do like Sutton better, however. This is just more proof that we can find RB talent for cheap and turn it into quality rosterable players.
Sutton is no less raw than Goodson...
he’s just better. He hits the holes faster, with more power, and breaks tackles — oh, yeah, and he doesn’t fumble, like Goodson does. Goodson is expendable — he had his chance, and didn’’t deliver.
yeah. im not saying we should keep him for to long.
The only reason Goodson was drafted and Sutton was not was the school they went to. IMO.
That's because they insist on using him like a Power Back
If the staff had a little creativity and found ways to get him the ball in space (where he’s very dangerous), then he could possibly be VERY useful. Sutton’s just more built for Fox type ball.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Sutton is 4" shorter, and they weigh the same...
I can’t see that their “build” has much to do with their relative effectiveness.
Being shorter is an advantage for a running back, particularly a power back
It gives you more leverage and a lower center of gravity… if you hit someone lower you are more likely to knock them off balance.
When I played football on the D-Line coaches were always preaching to get low to help drive back those D-linemen, and they are right. Physics is on the side of the low man.
"Built" figuratively then
Sutton runs more like a power back, low center of gravity, falls forward… Goodson tries to juke and jive too much. He needs to be used in space.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
They're two different types of backs
Goodson is like Bush, he has jets and is better in space. He can hit you because he is big, 6’0, but he prefers to go around you. Sutton is a workhorse, he doesn’t have elite speed or moves, but he hits the hole hard and keeps coming at you. There is a reason both weren’t higher drafted, they have flaws. You guys point to our great success with running backs, failing to note that two of them have been first rounders, and the other one looks like a utility player at best.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 1:49 AM EST up reply actions
I really do not understand your idea
that we can find RB talent for cheap and turn it into quality players. Tashard Choice had a great season when Barber, and Felix Jones were out. Does that make the Cowboy a RB farm? What about the Titans? Teams passed up on Chris Johnson, but does that mean the Titans groomed both Johnson and LenWhale white? What about Shonn Greene from the Jets and Pierre Thomas from the Saints?
Not to be rude, but I can promise you that if DeAngelo or JStew had landed on another team, they would have had the same success if not better. Other teams with more balanced offense can take the pressure off from the running game and maybe if it weren’t for Jake, Double Trouble would’ve had better numbers this season.
It’s how you make the transition from college to nfl. Look at Chris Johnson for example, anyone thought he would’ve had that kind of season with the Titans? How about Reggie Bush? How is it that Pierre Thomas can run better than Reggie Bush?
All you're doing here is proving my point.
Pierre Thomas can run better than Reggie Bush for the same reason that Sutton can run better than Goodson. I firmly believe that talent fights its way to the top, it does not have to be selected there. Hell, the Saints are a perfect example for having a system that breeds talent at a position. They do it at WR. Marques Colston was a 7th round pick. Devery Henderson was regarded as a cast off. Lance Moore was nobody. Enter Sean Payton and Drew Brees… boom. you have a supporting cast that allows you to show off your talent.
We have one of the best, if not the best, run blocking offensive lines in professional football. We can take underrated talent and turn it into servicable backs. Sutton is proving himself to be a reliable asset to the team, and he was not even drafted. What is depleting your confidence that we can’t take another late round RB or UDFA with a desire to be better, and turn him into a good NFL RB?
Sutton has only had 12 carries
I don’t think you can rely on Sutton based on his performance last season. But you tell me, do you think we can continue to produce DWill or JStew type of player and trade them to fill other positions? What happened to Deshaun Foster when we tried to trade him? Just because we had very good two seasons with DWill and JStew does not mean that we have the O-line that can produce good runningbacks. DWill during the 08 season didn’t break out until later in the season. Plus, we drafted Jonathan Stewart the same year.. if we were so confident in our running game we would have waited until later in the draft to grab a runningback.
I still believe in that it’s got everything to do with the runningback talent, despite the kind of O-line you have
Forgot to mention
That DWill and JStew are hardly the diamonds in the rough. Both highly coveted even before the draft. So you’re saying that we can continue to draft RBs in the later rounds and produce them into rosterable players, but Sutton’s only had 12 carries, and Goodson’s been “thunderstruck” the whole season. I would not call that a success.
Therefore
If you are making the assumption that we can produce solid runningbacks based on Sutton’s production last season, then you’re mistaken. If you’re making the assumption based on DWill and JStew’s accomplishments, are you suggesting then that we draft a RB with our first round pick each year? You do know that they were first round picks?
Like I said before, there’s no proof that the Panthers can “groom” late round, undrafted players based on Sutton’s 12 carries and Goodson’s god-awful performance last season. And drafting a first rounder to trade for another first rounder is not only a waste of a precious pick, but not a wise decision.
you are "Assuming" to much
I never said that my points are based around just Sutton last season. he was impressive, especially given that he didn’t really cost us anything.
You’re also incorrectly stating that we would be trading him for “just one first rounder” no way. That is crap value for us, and would certainly be foolish.
I am also not saying we should keep relying on late round and undrafted talent to be backup RBs either. But i think we can take say a 3rd round guy and make him into something special, or we can definately get one of the myriad FA running backs to work.
Yeah
My point in that vague post was that say we trade away one of our backs for some #2 WR that MAY catch 50 balls, then we decide to draft a RB, and we pick a guy like Shelton again, we would have then essentially given away part of Double Trouble for virtually nothing. No thanks.
Or we pick another Wiliams or Stewart
The argument that we could pick a bust is cancelled by the argument that we could pick a star.
The idea is that we get a proven commodity at WR, that will catch as many balls as we can feed him, and get a couple draft picks to better our chances at picking a stud. Like it or not, we will have to face this decision about breaking up double trouble eventually.
Or we keep Williams and Stewart
and sign a free agent this season. We can extend one of the two this season when it’s uncapped, frontload the deal. Stew still has like three more years left on his deal.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
But there's no proof
that we can take a 3rd round guy and make him into something special. And in order for these scrub running backs to get noticed, they would have to get significant carries. 12 carries barely gets them noticed. That takes away possible TD from DWill or JStew, and take away their carries in general.
Williams and Stewart were both first rounders.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
But they still found ways to use Bush
We could use Goodson effectively in a similar manner.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
+1
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 1:51 AM EST up reply actions
Sutton's more serviceable now... Goodson is a project
Let him put on some more muscle, and cross our fingers that the staff will get more creative with him. I still think he could do well getting the ball in space… more like Reggie Bush. But if Fox is stubborn about all RBs having to run up the middle then it might never happen for him.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I understand what you're saying but might I ask..
If that is the case, why haven’t we developed Mike Goodson into a stud RB to trade?
Do we develop great running backs or have we been extremely fortunate in getting two great running backs? I’d say a little of both. While we have two great running backs now, and a good one in Sutton, that hasn’t always been the case. In fact, I’d say I can’t remember any other time when we have been sitting so well at the RB position. Stephen Davis was my favorite Panther but even he wasn’t as good as Williams or Stewart.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
You're not going to hit a home run everytime
Mike Goodson is not a good fit, as stated many times above, for the fox-style running game.
He is a burner. Someone who really will only be effective off-tackle and in space. If our coaching staff could come up with some creative ways to use him, I would wager that he can be effective.
yea, but
i still think if we trade D. Will and pick up C.J. Spiller we would be find. If you have seen this guy play you would see what i am talking about. He’s a great player with great personality and he’s just another D. Will. This guy is so good, they retired his number in Clemson. I know D. Will. and Stewart’s chemistry is great, but it takes two. Stewart reminds me of Julius Peppers, but he’s just not full of himself like pepps is.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 9, 2010 10:14 AM EST reply actions
Yes!
As much as we like double trouble, the NFL is now a passing league with the way the rules favor the quarterbacks and wide receivers. Two running backs that run for over 1,100 yards and the Panthers are home on the couch in the playoffs??? Superbowl XLIV- 150 rushing yards and 614 passing yards. We have other options at running back as previously mentioned and we could definitely use some help at wide receiver.
I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it.
I don't really buy the "this is a passing league" rhetoric
You still need a good running game to open up those options in the passing game. Yes the Super Bowl numbers were heavily leaning toward the pass. But if you look at both NO and IND, you see a pair of running games you have to respect. The Saints finally finding a way to move the ball on the ground as well as through the air is what catapulted them into the super bowl. You should also take a look at home many of those passing yards went to running backs. Addai and Bush both has success catching the football out of the backfield, something desirable in any running back. I see more and more big plays developing from a simple dump off pass where the RB turns nothing into something.
This being said...
I think you play your cards when you can afford to hold ’em not when everyone knows you have to fold ’em
Tater..
Whether you buy into or not the statistics show it is a pass heavy league now. Watch the NFL network, those cats are always preaching how the league is changing. This post was about giving up one of our two headed monsters not both. The Panthers would still have an elite back and a complimentary back with Sutton, Goodson, or a draft pick. That should be enough to provide a balanced attack, which is what we really need to compete at a higher level. Just my opinion.
I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it.
If you read my other posts
You’ll see that I am in the trade camp.
I am simply pointing out that the claim that “this is a passing league” is false.
There are teams that can point to their success this season, and will tell you “we turned this ship around thanks to the running game”
Best examples would be the New York Jets, Cincinnati Bengals, Miami Dolphins.
Teams that sputtered this season because their running game was not as effective as they would like it to be:
New York Giants
Houston Texans
Philadelphia Eagles
Chicago Bears
Add San Diego to that list
They needed old school LT on the field in their playoff loss, but they got his current version, which is just not as effective.
They could also be a trade destination (if that is even considered). They could use a home run threat at RB. Just don’t think we could get much back.
However, I still don’t want to trade either. Just seems like an intresting option there.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
San Diego provides interesting options
If you assume that LT is done in San Diego, which in all likelihood is true based on recent statements, your next question should be…
“Do we have faith in Darren Sproles to carry the load?”
I think the answer is no. Sproles is lightning in a bottle no doubt, and he is having similar success to what we saw out of Jamaal Charles late last season. Does that mean that San Diego and KC won’t be shopping for a more all-around RB? Probably not. I think both are good bets to make moves at the RB position in the draft or via free agency.
KC is likely to hit the draft for their answer, because they have a lot to rebuild before they can make a super bowl run. San Diego, on the other hand, is right on the cusp of getting there and winning one. They need an answer now, and will likely look to free agency for it.
Enter the Panthers.
Being that San Diego has a young team, they can afford to part ways with a couple draft picks and a player in order to acquire the services of a stud RB. I think they view Vincent Jackson as a crucial element to their success for a SB run, but what about their other young WRs Malcolm Floyd and Legedu Naanee? What about the fate of LT? Surely he would find success in a timeshare behind a line the quality of ours.
It is likely that San Diego would want the power of Stewart to match the speed of Sproles…
Carolina gives: RB Jonathan Stewart
San Diego gives: WR Malcolm Floyd, RB LaDanian Tomlinson, 2010 1st round pick, 2011 3rd round pick
NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
We hardly get a thing.:(
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 9, 2010 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
What? Seriously?
We get a 6’5" 225lb. 4th year WR coming off a 45rec/800yd season
We get one of the greatest RBs of the modern NFL era, playing with a chip on his shoulder, and in a situation that can extend his life. He is not 2005 LT anymore, granted, but as a backup RB or in a timeshare… I like him
We also get a 1st round pick and a 3rd round pick.
How is that “hardly getting a thing” ?
Heck No
Stewart is going no where, he has 2-3 years kleft on his contract and is a young RB. I don’t even think if they are offered 3 first round picks if the panthers would take it.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 9, 2010 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
Yup!
Why’d we take a WR who’s ok not really great we don’t know how good a RB who will maybe last a few years before he’s useless and a 1st and a 3rd. For possibly the next Steven Jackson?
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 9, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
Who?
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 9, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
DeAngelo
Is what you are trying to get at that you would consider this trade if it were DeAngelo on the block and not Stewart?
Yea
If it was D. Will, we should consider, but not for BeefStew.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 9, 2010 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
No not really
I’d want a huge amount for either.
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 9, 2010 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
Okay, so what if we do this...
Malcolm Floyd is indeed a free agent this year. Last year he signed a 1 year contract for 1.5m and has his best season as a pro.
Do you think this deal is better if we drop the 3rd round pick in 2011 and get
WR Vincent Jackson
RB LaDanian Tomlinson
2010 1st round pick
Yup.
Much better still don’t like the idea of losing D Willy but that would make it a little easier to swallow I like VJ.:)
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 9, 2010 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
No Vincent
I don’t like Vincent Jackson, he loooks and sounds like too much trouble in the locker room. Too much pride. He doesn’t fit in the Panthers Organisation.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 9, 2010 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
maybe better
Stewart has the tools to be better than Steven Jackson. Stewart is Faster and stronger. Stewart breaks 3-5 tackles everytime. He had an ankle problem and still ran a 4.4 at the combine.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 9, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
Malcolm Floyd
Isn’t he a free agent this year???
by SouthernPanther on Feb 9, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
Agree to diagree then...
Running is important to balance an offense, I just don’t believe you can be as competitive without a solid passing threat anymore. Even Bill Cowher has stated that the NFL is now a passing league.
Link- http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/scott-toole/index.ssf/2009/10/post.html
I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it.
I agree you need a solid passing game to win
And that is what the Panthers are missing. But you need to build it on the base of a good rushing game to keep the defenses honest. They key to a good passing game is the presence of a good rushing game, IMO.
I say we give up something in our monstrous running game to make big strides in our passing game. Which seems to be exactly what you are advocating.
OR!
We keep our phenomenal run game, and get an upgrade at #2 receiver. This is a deep class for receivers, and there are plenty of UFA available who could give us a threat. You act like we HAVE to trade one of D-Will or J-Stew to get a better passing attack, newsflash, we don’t HAVE to do anything with them until their contracts expire.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 1:55 AM EST up reply actions
Jeez back off it
I am not speaking in absolutes, and this thread is all about theories and possible scenarios. I understand your love for drouble trouble. we all love double trouble. but reality is that we cannot keep them together forever, so we should start looking into all the value we can get for them.
Instead of signing some mid-grade free agent, we can get a high quality player or players, as well as some draft picks for one of them.
Sorry mate
I reread that, and it came off a little harsh. But I honestly believe we can keep them together, they both feed off of each other, hence the Double. We will have to make some roster sacrifices, but I think it will be worth it.
And we don’t need an elite #2, or even higher quality. A cheap, low cost, role player vet is all we need. Kevin Walter, Nate Burleson, etc. They would provide the same impact, and we get to keep Double Trouble.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:04 AM EST up reply actions
Also
i would also like them to trade Mike Goodsoon. If you pay attention, all his running is always to the outside. When he tried to run inside he fumbles the ball. We have too many running back to be grooming one. This past draft, i believe they wasted an entire 4th round. We could have picked up a FB amongst the UDFA. Players like Chris Pressley. He was on the Bengals TC, but is now with Tampa and he is a good FB.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 9, 2010 10:22 AM EST reply actions
Nobody would trade for Goodson
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I agree
We spent a 4th on him just last year, unless we can recoup the value I don’t see us making that trade. We’re much better off learning how to minimize his weakness’s and maximize his strengths, he’s good in space, get him the ball in space. Keep him on the team, let him develop. He’s only been here for one year, give him a chance.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 1:56 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed, let him be a project
And he has good hands too. Maybe even put him in the slot??? I just have a little doubt Fox will ever use him much if he can’t run up the middle.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, it is not like we asked him to do much
When you have such an effective run game, you dont need to ask much out of your rookie RB.
We have a 2nd and a 3rd rd this year.
I think we can fill any holes needed with double trouble still intact.
Agreed. I don’t see any reason to break them up at this point now.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Agreed!
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 1:57 AM EST up reply actions
If Pep leaves...
then we’ll need a #2 receiver and a DE. You’ll likely fill neither this year with only 2nd and 3rd round picks.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
if pep leaves
We’ll receive compensation to try and replace him. We can’t incorporate pep’s situation into this cause we don’t know what’s going to happen. We can certainly address the need of a #2 wr. with a 2nd rd. pick
U are contradicting your stance
What do you want for trading one of our backs? More picks so we can pick more Jarretts?
Or we can pick more Smiths
No one knows how a draft pick will pan out. But they are eternally valuable none the less. Especially considering that you don’t even have to use that draft pick to draft someone, you could use it to trade for a proven commodity that you need.
Sure… we could fill a #2 WR need in free agency. But the cream of the crop in the upcoming FA class is likely to never make it to free agency at all. If they are good enough to be a #2 WR, they would have been re-signed by their team.
What I am advocating is a trade involving a proven player at WR, along with some draft picks to potentially reload at RB, or to trade for another RB.
"you could use it to trade for a proven commodity that you need."
Aren’t you proposing the Panthers do just the opposite of that?
nope.
because while it is nice to have a 2nd running back the quality of a williams or stewart, we have not shown the offensive creativity to play both at the same time. We do however, play 2 WRs in our base configuration, like most teams. And we desperately need to get younger and more talented at that spot.
Having the 2nd awesome RB is a luxury for us, and I think by downgrading a little at RB we can upgrade our overall offense. If we add more threats to catch a pass, we make the job easier on the RB we keep, and the new RB who becomes our new #2.
The only real reason I advocate any of this at all, is that this is something the organization will have to face eventually. If we could keep double trouble forever without destroying our ability to upgrade other positions (in a salary cap situation), then obviously we would. However, right now, we are holding all the bargaining chips, and this is the time where we can get maximum value.
We can upgrade the second receiver spot without downgrading at running back
For this season at any rate. And while Williams is a free agent, we will take advantage of the cap situation to frontload any extensions. And what about the possibility of a hometown discount.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
Or more smiths like you stated....
You can’t go into the draft expecting to draft a bust. Top 5 receivers in 2009:
1 W. Welker – Undrafted
2 S. Smith (NYG) – 2nd rd.
3 A Johnson – 1st rd (3rd overall)
4 B. Marshall – 4th rd.
5 R. Wayne – 1st rd. (30th overall)
if they do their homework and choose the right guy we can grab solid talent in the 2nd rd.
We have to incorporate Pep's situation in this cause
Because a 2nd round or later draft pick is not going to come close to feeling his HUGE shoes… At least not in their first year. Recent history has shown you have better odds of getting an immediate serviceable RB through the draft. But a DE or WR that contributes in 2011 will most likely have to come through FA.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
If Pep leaves
we have Brayton, Brown and Johnson. Another warm body is needed, but a 4th or fifth will do.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 1:57 AM EST up reply actions
Let's hope Brown has a strong 2nd year
But even if he does, Pep will still leave a huge hole. I’d like to see a more dominant DT… then Johnson and Brown could probably handle the load.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
good point
having pressure up the middle is something our rush lacks big time. Having a more dominant pass rushing DT would help our DE’s greatly.
by SouthernPanther on Feb 10, 2010 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
Trade one of them. The Panthers have Sutton and “Thunderstruck” whom have both shown promise. There is no reason to keep two pro bowl running backs. BTW, I think they are also the first two 1000 yard rushers on the same team whom DID NOT go to the playoffs. Its absurd to have two pro bowl backs like that but still not make the playoffs. That should tell you there are bigger issues on this team.
"It's a bad day to have a bad day" - Coach John Fox of the Carolina Panthers
yea
i agree. If we don’t use the pick for a RB in the first round, we could use it on Dez Bryant and maybe Jarvis Best in the Second or Jonathan Dwyer in the second or just groom Mike Goodson then.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 9, 2010 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
Jahvid.
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 9, 2010 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
Your welcome.:)
I like Best but I never thought he’d might get a spot on the team as a RB but if we trade D will would love to get him.
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 9, 2010 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
yea
Never really paid attention to him in college, but he looks like a very good return guy.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 9, 2010 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
But we did go to the playoffs the season before
With a very good record in fact. I promise you, if we had a decent passing game, we would have made to the playoffs with ease. All we have to do is make a little bit of an adjustment on our passing game, but breaking up our running game will lead us to nowhere.
And “Thunderstruck” must have been struck all season, because he was god-awful. There’s no promise in either Sutton or Goodson. Sutton made some good runs, but his 12 rushes can’t be the sign that we can let go of either DWill or JStew.
We went to the playoffs because we had a passing game to compliment them
If we don’t sure up QB and/or a #2 receiver, then we won’t make it in 2011 either… even with 1million backup-ProBowl RBs.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
And we can do that..
Without trading either of them.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
Possibly
But you are assuming that every FA will want to come here, and that we will out bid every other interested team. FA’s try to milk their situation, but when you trade they have little say in it.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
Actually Fox's style is to build through the draft
It’s not really like him to bring in big name FA’s.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
Which is why a solid role player like Kevin Walter, Jason Avant, or Nate Burleson
is a great fit.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:06 AM EST up reply actions
We missed the playoffs because we didn't have a competent QB
We have one (likely) now, why risk hurting his success by trading away our ground game? He did just fine throwing to Smith, he did fine even when Smith was out. He got Jarret his first touchdown.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 1:59 AM EST up reply actions
So you are implying that Jarret should be #2 then
Because Moose is getting too old to stay there, and we have nobody else.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 11:11 PM EST up reply actions
No, I'm saying Moore was excellent with the talent around him
An upgrade at #2, some youth in the draft, and we are set for the season. No need to trade an elite RB for picks and a quality #2. The picks will be used just for more role players, not stars, our roster is too stacked for that. And the quality #2 won’t have as big an impact as the #1b running back.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:08 AM EST up reply actions
So we agree we need talent around him, more than talent on the bench, right?
And trading a ProBowl RB that is stuck on your bench, could probably get you talent at multiple positions. That is why NOBODY ever holds on to 2 dominant RBs.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
If we had a second Pro Bowl QB
your becnh argument would be valid. But Stew sees playing time, and isn’t rotting away on the bench like you suggest.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 14, 2010 6:46 AM EST up reply actions
Look at it this way...
Chris Johnson is the talk of the league at RB, right?
In ‘09, he played 896 snaps, gained 2,037 yards, scored 14 TD’s, had 1,073 YAC (yards after contact) How many years do you think he can keep that up?
Contrast that to our 2 leading RB’s —
Williams and Stewart combined numbers are 941 snaps, 2,250 yards on the ground, 17 TD’s, and 1,375 YAC — but they split the 941 snaps, 443 and 498, thereby extending both their careers.
So you would take away half of that exemplary production, and throw to some as yet unnamed new WR#2 (or hand off to some RB as yet untested — Sutton and Goodson had a total of 34 carries) approximately 450 times? Or would you wear down the RB you don’t trade by running like Johnson, and thereby exposing him a shorter career, or increased risk of injury, without a top backup, such as we undeniably have now?
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
The extending their career argument doesn't work
Because keeping both throughout the life of their careers would mean eventually paying both star RB money. Which would be ridiculous.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Sorry i was being ridiculous.
I’ll try to be less factual and logical in the future, so as to please your opinion of the situation. Of course you see the future more clearly than I.
So you don't think it ridiculous to pay a backup star pay?
I’m not trying to go Procto on you BigDavis. I just have a hard time agreeing with you guys, when nobody ever keeps talent like that on the bench.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 15, 2010 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
He's not on the bench, he's getting plenty of reps.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 16, 2010 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
Why?
You pay stars star money. Peyton Manning gets 100 million, he’s just one player. Haynesworth got 100 million, he’s just one guy. Stew and D-Will will likely combine for 60-80 million, that’s worth it for two players of that caliber. Especially considering they are our identity on offense.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 15, 2010 1:26 AM EST up reply actions
Ok seriously, name one team that has kept and paid a ProBowl caliber player to be a backup?
I cannot think of one. But I can think of many backups that were traded when their value went up… and there is a reason for that. Because it makes good economical sense.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 15, 2010 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
This is a unique situation
There isn’t precedence.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 16, 2010 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
Well, that we agree on!
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I am shocked at how many people said yes.
So what happens when the back we keep gets hurt? You are going to rely on one of our quarterbacks to carry us? Our passing game will pick up the slack? Short-sighted lemming-ism.
Look at my price.
I don’t want to lose them but for that price it’d help it go down.
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 9, 2010 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
John Fox football is...
short-sighted. Invest everyhting into the runing game and nothing into the qb and wr positions. That is what got us into this mess anyways.
I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it.
I think the mess being..
Possibly having the greatest chance we have ever had at winning a super bowl next season.
Some mess.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
Not really
You can’t possibly panic after this season. No one complained until we got our butt whooped in the game against the Cards. Fox’s playing style has always worked. We’ve almost always made it to the playoffs. It’s really the turnovers and the lack of a good QB that cost us the season.
I disagree that it was our WRs’ fault. It was more like Jake’s inability to utilize all the weapons he had. Jarrett was very promising coming into the league. Although many ppl already think that he’s a bust, Delhomme had a lot to do with it. We don’t need to trade double trouble, we just need more luck in drafting a WR
You are correct across the board
We have invested in the passing game, it just hasn’t panned out. And to Davejinxer…if you are not psyched about how we ended the season then I just don’t know.
by ERL on Feb 9, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
What happens if Smitty gets hurt? Or our QB plays like crap?
Oh wait, we just found the latter out this year. Our stud RBs didn’t carry us in 2009! It wasn’t until we had a balanced offense that we started playing well.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
And we played well WITH our two running backs..
No need to get rid of one of them, just build on what we have.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
EXACTLY
We have a great, young core to build around here. Blowing up the barn for a #2 receiver is “short-sighted”. If a QB goes down, or Smith, we are screwed, #2 receiver or not.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 2:01 AM EST up reply actions
I'm with Flowing Willow on this topic
Our tandem of RBs are the envy of the league. Let’s not forget that they play well as teammates — they root for the other’s success; there is not a shred of a hint of discord, jealousy, or one wanting more touches. They are like twin brothers. They realize their effectiveness as individuals increases because they spell each other, a
(CONT'D) sorry for the early Post error
…and this puts defenses at a disadvantage. And we don’t NEED to trade one to get a competent #2WR — they’re readily available.
I suspect this topic arose from, and is being kept alive by, the popularity of Fantasy Football, and all the trading that it entails. Maybe we should quit trying to be GMs, and be thankful for what we’ve got.
Other teams may have their little 2-headed monsters, but none can match ours.
To answer the query the post raises, there is NO scenario, or combination of draft choices (available in the real world!) that I would trade either of these studs for.
+1
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:09 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think we watched the same post season
It was balanced teams and strong passing teams that made playoff runs. Look at the top 4 rushing teams… NYG, Tennessee, Carolina, Miami, Baltimore. Only ONE of them even made the playoffs. On the other hand 2 of the top 5 passing teams made the Superbowl!
Bottom line, RB is one of the easiest positions to draft… but regardless, stacking RBs will not get you to the post season.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
Running alone won't get you there
It’s a team sport, you need a defense and a passing game. But we can have all three without breaking up Double Trouble. Our defense is good, it came back from a rough start which likely knocked us out of the playoffs. Our passing game is looking up, one of Fox’s famous low-key signings and we are set. And what more can I say about our running game that hasn’t already been said. Miami had the toughest schedule for a team that was only two years removed from 1-15. There are still some major talent deficiencies on that roster. And Ronnie Brown went down halfway through the year, that’s a factor. They lost part of their Double Trouble, how did Ricky handle the load? Tennessee had an awful pass defense, started 0-6, then put in Young who worked his magic with a lackluster receiving corps. The Giants were ineffective rushing all year, blame Jacobs becoming a softy. Ahmad Bradshaw couldn’t handle the load, and the trifecta of Earth, Wind, and Fire is no more. You see where I’m going here?
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:13 AM EST up reply actions
"help it go down"
You are still deciding that picks are better than having both of them…its not being forced upon you.
i dont think we just trade for picks
We trade for players and picks. I agree that picks are to risky. Take a look at my San Diego trade scenario above. We get picks, an upgrade at a position we have need in, and a veteran insurance policy at RB.
And a Dominant WR.:)
Well technically it is since I’m not in the FO so if they do trade one then at least I will only be mad I will still be a fan instead of becoming a fan of someone else.
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 9, 2010 11:23 AM EST reply actions
Why?
Malcolm Floyd is going to be available this offseason. We used a 1st rounder on either back, so we are essentially getting a 3rd rounder next year and a washed up 31 year old back who avgs 3.3 per carry? No thanks.
We get a 1st round this year, and a 3rd rounder next year.
Plus the two players.
One of which is a future NFL Hall of Famer. You know… we traded for a 30 year old back once. I think his name was Stephen Davis?
+1
I just posted about this up top, I’m almost sure Floyd is a FA
by SouthernPanther on Feb 9, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Preach it!
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 9, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
Amen Brotha!!!
=P…I love DeAngelo’s character too much, both are way to good for the locker room, and they are both so much fun to watch!
by SouthernPanther on Feb 9, 2010 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
The Dance on the side line is awesome.:)
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 9, 2010 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
Yes
We both know it’s not going to last for long. I believe after this season offer him an extension, if he wants too much money, tag and trade. KNowing D.Will, I don’t thing he would cripple the Franchise, i believe he would take any fair amount cause he just such a nice guy and he’s not driven by money like peppers is.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 9, 2010 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
What does he make now anyways?
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 9, 2010 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
$1,380,000 for 2009
with the probowl selection, maybe another 500k-750k i think, not sure.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 9, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
He is so unselfish
Have y’all seen where chris johnson and Deshean Jackson are grumbling for new contracts!?!? Deangelo is better than both (Yes better than CJ), and he is STILL PLAYING ON HIS ROOKIE CONTRACT!!!! Isn’t that amazing…
by SouthernPanther on Feb 9, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
I agree 100%
D-Will knows the game and the organization is bigger than he is, and acts that way.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Feb 9, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
That said...
The Panthers need to come forward and offer him a long term deal that pays him what he is worth to this organization, without him having to ask for it.
The Panthers wont be able to afford to tender extensions to both Williams and Stewart. We’re going to lose one of the eventually.
The Panthers will delay making that decision as long as possible.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Feb 9, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Which is what this is all about
Do we jump the gun and trade now while both of them are guaranteed their highest value AND while we are in a position that we don’t have to move one of them?
We have all the chips in our possession right now… I’d like to see a big move made while we can get maximum value.
If I were the type to overblow your logic (MP)
I would say:
“So you think the Colts should trade Peyton Manning now, while he still has a year on his contract? We won’t be able to afford him in 2012 beyond, so trade him now so we get max value.”
This is taking it too far, yes, but you must find ways to afford them both…Just like you find a way to pay Manning 20M+ per year. These types of franchise players win games for us/them.
by ERL on Feb 9, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
Hah I'm glad you're not MP
My reply would be “Yes, but Manning does not have another Manning behind him”
I love having both Williams and Stewart… and I hope everyone knows that. I just don’t know if we will ever be in a better bargaining situation than we are right now. Both backs, coming off an amazing year, and both relatively healthy.
"You must find a way to afford them both"
It’s just not possible if they continue this level of production. No team has ever done it. The Chargers had to choose LT over Michael Turner, the Giants had to choose Jacobs over Derrick Ward.
Both would be looking at an extension comparable to what the Rams gave Stephen Jackson (6 years, $32 million). The Panthers can’t afford to commit that much money to two running backs.
Just look at the difficulties Arizona are having trying to juggle extensions for Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin… and those players are on the field at the same time, making it more easily justifiable.
The Peyton Manning analogy is a poor one, because teams only ever use one QB with regularity (with the exception of the Dolphins).
I love Double Trouble, but it’s unrealistic to think we can keep them both when their both due for extensions.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Feb 9, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
The only way it will happen is if they both settle for low pay
Which, in today’s NFL, I seriously doubt would happen.
But, it would be nice if they would both take smaller contracts so both could stay around for the next 5 years.
To be really cheesy...
Anything is possible. If they both want the potential for 30 carries a game, then they may part ways. But the friendship they have found might allow them to accept below market value to stay together. RB’s do not command the kind of paycheck that QBs and pass-rushers do. They will both be affordable.
But realistically, by the time Stewart’s rookie contract is up, DeAngelo will be in the middle of his second contract, so it will all be about J-Stew at that point.
Since he is the younger of the two, he will be considered the future of the position (more so than Williams), so the Panthers will do almost anything to keep them together—at least they should.
by ERL on Feb 9, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
Its all about give and take
IF they want two great RBs, then they’ll have to make a cut somewhere else. It can be done, but to what end? Do you skimp on a defensive position or two in order to keep them? Maybe you do.
by ERL on Feb 9, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
But combined Manning is more than Double Trouble
The Colts find a way to make it work. I’ve used this before, Double Trouble is just as important to our teams success as Peyton Manning is to the Colts’.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 2:04 AM EST up reply actions
Execept that Peyton has a Superbowl ring DT doesn't
Only 1 top 5 running team made the playoffs this year. Double Trouble is nice to have, but will not carry us to a Superbowl.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
DT have only been together for two years
one of them netting us a 12-4 record. Manning in the meantime took what, eight years to win a Super Bowl? Come back to me when Double Trouble has been together that long, we’ll see who has more Super Bowls.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:15 AM EST up reply actions
If we sign them both this season
and frontload the deals to take the hit in the uncapped season, we very well could. Whoever manages our cap is a wizard, fielding an effective team with Peppers salary clogging up the books is nothing short of a miracle.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 2:02 AM EST up reply actions
Well hopefully by the time DWill is 30
He’s figured out a way to play WR. Because as we just learned Double Trouble can’t make the playoffs without a passing game to compliment them.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
And you are assuming we can't have both.
There are plenty of options for #2 receiver that don’t include trading away one of Double TRouble.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 2:05 AM EST up reply actions
I'm saying we can replace one easily, and use the value to better benefit the team
This is a passing league now, you can no longer run your way to the post season. Putting too much stock in Double Trouble will hurt us. We need to distribute that talent to the positions that will help us get to the post season.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
Umm, yeah we can
Do realize that if we had won the Buffalo game and one more game, we’d have been in the playoffs? We had the same team in 2008 and 2009, but we won those 2 or 3 pivotal games to go 12-4 in 2008. I’m not even sure what you are advocating. What do we try to trade for?
No. We can't.
We lost the vast majority of our games last season while our passing game was suffering on the arm of Jake Delhomme. It wasn’t until Matt Moore came in and gave us a decent passing game again that we collected most of our wins.
Double Trouble was not nearly as productive in the first part of the season as they became down the stretch, or as indivuals when the other was hurt.
Agreed
They would have been more effective without those 11 carry games Davidson was prone to throwing out.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:16 AM EST up reply actions
I'm advocating the FACT that runninf game will not carry you to the playoffs
Only 1 top 5 rushing team made the playoffs. On the other hand 4 of the top 5 passing teams made it, and 2 of them went on to the Superbowl! We are lopsided to a fault, we need to move some of that talent to our passing game it we wan’t to be a playoff contender.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
And we can add that talent through our current situation
In the draft, Golden Tate, Brandon Lafell, Mardy Gilyard, and Arrelious Benn could all very well be available at our selection. In free agency, Kevin Walter, Nate Burleson, Malcolm Floyd, all would be the solid #2 that we need. We are lopsided, but that’s more of a case of you have to pick your priorities each year. Who would have thought our passing game would have regressed a year ago? We had to pick one area to improve, while unfortunately another regressed. You have to have balance in this league. And we can achieve that not by downgrading at one position to upgrade another, but by just upgrading.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:19 AM EST up reply actions
"And we can achieve that not by downgrading at one position to upgrade another, but by just upgrading."
That’s probably the best summation of the one side of this debate that has taken over 320 posts to cover, so far.
The other side, espoused by tater, is that we’ve got to do it sometime (break them up), because eventually. one or the other is going to need a big fat new contract — so why not do it now, when they’re hot commodities.
I can’t see that either of these two sides of an argument will ever be convinced he’s wrong. And maybe neither is.
Yea
I know, He had 1500 yards and 18 touchdown last season, this season he was voted to probowl and we still didn’t hear him demanding for more money. I believe Peppers is motivated by money. You could say what u want, but since he didn’t want to be here no more, he just decides to get paid as much money as he can get paid. He broke his hand, he know he could have given other opportunity to setup and play one of two games, but he didn’t cause he knows on a franchise tag you have to paly all games.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 9, 2010 11:59 AM EST reply actions
I believe...
That peppers is motivated by money because his agent is motivated by money. I just get the sense that the Peppers of the past season and a half or so is not the same Peppers we have had all these years in Charlotte.
I agree with the sentiments that Carey is feeding him these things, and he is buying into it.
He deserves to get paid. That is for sure. But all this huge money talk… i dont know if it is really Peppers talking.
Thank You
He’s making it too obvious, and his Agent who has no experience in my books is going to ruin his career, and knowing peppers who plays when he wants to or when we dominating but can’t be found when our offense lacks rhythm. I think he has a weak mind and gives up easily eventhough he’s an excellent athlete. Just wish he has the heart Jon Beason has i.e. playing every down like it’s ur last breathe.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 9, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
shouldnt do it
every one is forgetting stewart has a bad achilles has since college and is coming of surgery his liable to miss a few games every year i would rather have d-will runing threw the holes than any other running back and vice versa when d-will went down we had no drop in production im just saying you gotta account for this is a rough game injuries happen we have the best formula
Excellent point about the injuries.
Welcome to the blog!
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Feb 9, 2010 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
Injuries are the key
The problem with having just one back is that when he’s got an injury, you are in deep trouble. as long as everyone is up front about it, I think they should both be around.
It should also keep them playing for more years as the cumulative hits get spread out more.
by panthersnbraves on Feb 9, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
Then trade Stewart
Sutton is more of a Power Back anyways. He’d compliment DWill better than Stewart.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
So based on Sutton's twelve carries
you’re ready to trade away a Pro Bowl back? Sutton has some skills, but he will never be half the player Stewart or DeAngelo are. He’s like Nick Goings, and that’s who’s ceiling I put him at, a reliable utility player. He’s not going to carry this team if D-Will goes down, which means neither will our passing game.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 2:07 AM EST up reply actions
+1000
I understand our need for #2 receiver and everything, but thinking that Sutton can replace JStew based on his 12 carries is a huge mistake.
I mean seriously, after 12 carries, ppl think he’s the answer to our problems. I can’t believe Goodson and Sutton is actually part of the discussion right now.
A running game is not going to carry this team period
You guys are completely ignoring the fact that 4 of the top 5 rushing teams missed the playoffs. We can easily pick up another solid RB. But Keeping 2 ProBowl RBs, when running the ball is proven to no longer consistently win games doesn’t make sense.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
Lets look at the playoff teams, see if a run game really won't carry you in the playoffs.
New Orleans: Seventh ranked ground game, proof you need balance.
Minnesota: Adrian Peterson, need I say more? Actually I will say more, because he was ineffective near the close of the year, but Minnesota struggled near the close, am I right?
Dallas: Choice, Jones, and Barber, combined with a killer defense, effective passing attack led by a star, role player, and a QB similar to our own. This whole situation is familar in fact.
Arizona: Second least rushing attempts in the league, did they get far?
Green Bay: Their passing attack was good, but so was their defense, until the playoffs, and Ryan Grant was a decent ground threat. Maybe if they’d had more they would have advanced?
Philadelphia: Passed the most of any team, lost in the first round. No run game whatsoever.
Indianapolis: This is the exception to the rule, but Peyton Manning is the exception.
San Diego: Beast passing attack, but when they ran into Darrelle Revis and the Jets, their ground game couldn’t pull it out.
Cincinatti: Very good ground game, but like us only one target in the passing game. Proof of balance is needed.
New England: No ground game whatsoever, and one of their receivers goes down, they get blown out.
Baltimore: Heck of a run game, got them past the Patriots, but their defense did them in.
New York Jets: #1 defense and ground game, got them to the AFC Championship as a sixth seed.
So basically my point is you need balance. You need a strong rushing attack, you need an effective defense, and you need a competent QB. We have all three, and the only missing piece is a #2 WR. That piece is easily acquirable in the second round, third round, or even free agency. We don’t need a superstar at #2, and our roster is stacked enough our own picks for the next few years will suffice. So trading Double Trouble hurts us in both the short term and the long term.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:28 AM EST up reply actions
woW
If you belive this then you must really be out there.
Sorry, me and 31 other teams agree
That one ProBowl RB is plenty.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
Actually you read that wrong
I meant Sutton would compliment DWill better than Sutton would compliment Stewart ;)
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 11:41 PM EST up reply actions
You can't be serious!
Or was that an attempt at irony?
No. Actually I find it very amusing...
That you guys think it takes 2 ProBowl RBs to make the playoffs. Especially when we didn’t make the playoffs, and when 6 of the league’s top 10 RBs didn’t even make the playoffs.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
And when 4 of the top 5 rushing teams didn’t make the playoffs
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 11:40 PM EST up reply actions
I think the issue is we remember the Seattle game
Lose your key RB and you screwed. Do you really expect a RB to take 300 carries and be healthy for the playoffs? I can and does happen but just as likely not.
So if Stewart turned out to be just average would we even be having this conversation? It’s because both RB’s are very good so we think we can trade them for equal value at another position? It works in FFL but not real life. Just because we have two very good RB’s doesn’t mean we have to get rid of one, as if he’s wasting away only getting half the carries. The Panthers drafted Stew to have two good RB’s and I don’t see why that changes because they both appear to be PB caliber.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
I think they drafted Stewart with uncertainty about DeAngelo
But my point is more that with our run blocking and commitment to the run, we don’t need ProBowl RBs. There is a reason guys like Derrick Ward and Michael Turner aren’t with their original teams. Either we get something for them now, while we can… or lose them to FA later.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Yeah, those two weren't Pro Bowlers in their time with their previous team.
Stewart outperformed D-Will this season, who was a Pro Bowler. A time tested fact in this league is that you don’t let your Pro Bowlers go if you can help it.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 13, 2010 9:01 AM EST up reply actions
Read my 2nd reply to macattac
lol. Was wondering why you thought that was so crazy :)
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t see any reason we should do it, but everybody has a price. Just like in baseball, nobody is untouchable. You get the right combination in return, then anybody can be shipped out.
+1
We should be open to the POSSIBILITY of a trade. In fact, it behooves us to seem like we don’t want to trade either of them.
It is in our best interests for other teams to approach us, and give us the upper hand in any negotiation involving either half of Double Trouble.
stewart won’t be traded he’s our speedy power back and he’s very young with more years on his rookie contract. i think deangelo will play out this year and be traded next year because extending both of them won’t work and his value is sky high, especially if we have a new head coach next year.
its sad but this is going to be the last year of double trouble :( we better do something big this year.. if i were the gm however i’d offer them an extension at the same time for the same exact amount and length maybe 3-4 mill a year each that’s not too bad. but you have to wonder since they’re too classy to let it show are they getting sick of not being feature backs and having to split carries. i say deangelo plays this year then gets traded and stewart is our feature back. loved watching stew at the end of the season tho he runs fast and hard so losing deang isnt too bad
I'm not so sure
Fox is loyal to starters like DWill. Plus Sutton would be a better compliment to DWill than Stewart because he has more power like Stewart, but not nearly as fast as DWill.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Sorry
We don’t have that many holes where we need all these high draft picks. You are going to end up trading the heart of your team for a couple of complimentary players. Just don’t make no sense.
First I'll comment on the listed trade, then my opinion.
In the original offer, it all depends on the team we’re trading to. If we’re trading to a team where we know those #1 picks are going to be in the top 15, I’d trade Stewart. Deangelo Williams is our home run threat and he’s the player that really gets this running game going, and once Matt Moore starts catching fire we’re going to need some star wideouts to pair up with him. It would do us good to find some good #1 wideouts in the draft to pair up with him, and build a powerful, long-term passing attack to go with our running game. When you consider that a rookie pay scale is probably incoming, it’ll be much easier to fit those high picks into the salary cap. But if an elite team like the Colts, the Patriots, or the Cardinals offer that same deal, I turn it down without a second thought. The bust potential of the lower 1st rounders start to rise, and at that point we could just use the same original draft pick we get on a 2nd round receiver and still incur the same amount of risk in picking the player. In a nutshell, turn down the deal if the 1st round picks are low, accept if they are high, and ONLY for Jonathan Stewart. Deangelo Williams is an untradeable.
In my mind, the only thing I would trade one of our stud running backs for is a #1 receiver. Whether we get that in the form of high picks to use on said draft receiver or a proven #1 receiver from another team, I don’t care either way. Even a proven player like Larry Fitzgerald would require something like a 2nd round pick in order to seal the deal. This is the strongest RB Tandum in the league right now. It would take a momentous offer in order to split them apart.
Double Trouble 2011.
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
Larry Fitz and 2 1sts
I honestly think the 2 like it here they have a good O-line and soon to be a good passing game.
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 9, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
Haha! I'd take that! :3
I agree. Our O-Line is the unsung heroes of this offense. Honestly, I can’t wait till Matt Moore becomes the above average QB we dream that he can be. He’s not going to be a Tom Brady or a Peytan Manning, but he’s going to be a Big Ben! By the end of the season, I’m going to give him the title of “That scrambling, accurate, son of a B****!” :D
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
you really think stewart would be traded before deangelo? stew has more time on his rookie contract and is FOUR years younger than deangelo. I doubt they want to extend deangelo at 28 years old when they can really get something out of him in a trade. this is the time you trade away your talent when their value is sky high see edge james.
Wait up now!
He’s 26 right now, not 28. Let’s get that fact straight really quick. ^^
Really, my thing with Stewart is this. He’s never been completely healthy since he got here. He’s undergoing his second Achilles surgery in the past 3 years. ((If I’m not mistaken. One before the draft, one after the season))
We trade away Deangelo Williams, can Stewart handle being the main guy? Right now, we don’t have anyone besides Terrell Sutton to be his backup, and I’m not confident that he’s good enough to produce as a #2 back. That’s why I’d prefer to trade him. Either way if we trade one of our backs away, we HAVE to get a replacement back in the draft. Our two back system MUST be continued. It has worked too well for us to get away for it now.
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
surgery
The first surgery (predraft) was toe surgery. This last surgery was on his Achilles. An important note: Jonathan Stewart has not missed a single game in his career…despite the label he has as “injury prone”
by SouthernPanther on Feb 9, 2010 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
He's shared the load nearly his entire career
Late last season being the exception. He hasn’t proven he can handle a full season being the #1 back. Come to think of it, neither has DeAngelo. Neither have ever received “#1 back carries” so that might decrease the value in some teams eyes, and increase the risk for us.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 2:10 AM EST up reply actions
I think you will be suprised at the closeness
I’m a Duke fan but you know how these games go…these players see that other jersey and all bets are off.
by ERL on Feb 9, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
The only way the heels are turning this season around
Is by claiming a victory of Duke.
But, yeah, what you described above has been true every season that I have been alive and can remember. All bets are off for the battle of 15-501
LOL
That should be our motto regarding Double Trouble.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 2:11 AM EST up reply actions
Good Idea, but Wrong Trade Outline
I would definitely trade them for the better of our franchise, D is amazing but running backs in this league will not last much longer than 7 years. D has already had 4 years and with his contract running up soon, we could possibly construe some type of deal that would work in our favor. J-Stew on the other hand is a little bit of a tougher commodity to simply give away. He is coming off his most productive season and still has the possibility to explode for another breakout season. Therefore I’m not so sure about packing his bags just yet. BUT, these two guys are in the deepest parts of my heart for my Carolina Pride and I personally never want to see them go, ESPECIALLY after their amazing accomplishment last year.
However (I sound a little like Pep the way I keep changing topics) IMHO anyone should be traded for your hypothetical trade outline. TWO 1st round draft picks plus change? I would trade practically any premier running back in this league for that deal. The NFL is all about one thing: What have you done for me now? And with that being said, new talent is always welcome, especially with Fox and Hurney at the helm breeding pure work-horses at the running back position.
Not a chance in HE!!
There is no way i would ever get rid of Stew or DWill for anything. I remember the days of DFoster along with Goins and whoever could fill in @ Hback (not the best of days for our running game). Plus, if somebody gets hurt, we can easily reload!! Bottom line is we have the best duo of backs in the NFL right now and we want to win don’t we. It just takes a little time to get our WR squad and passing game to the same level as our running game ….just look how long it took to get our Hbacks to this level. We are on the brink of something good in the Panther Nation for our offense as well as defense…Lets go win that Super Bowl!!!
You have to acquire talent to help your WR squad
The best way to do that is by trading a position that you have an abundance of talent at.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
NO!
Sorry if I seem uptight Southy, but that is a misconception!!!! We have plenty of options, even without a first round pick. You act like all #1’s HAVE to be highly picked, but newsflash, Marques Colston was a seventh, Steve Smith was a third, Vincent Jackson was a second or third, heck he could have been a fourth. You can get great receiving talent in the later rounds, or even in FA. Kevin Walter is a perfect fit for this team, and he’s UFA.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 2:13 AM EST up reply actions
But Fox and co has not picked a single successful WR
I’m not saying you can’t go through the draft. I’m just not confident Fox can. And I’m really not confident a rookie WR would contribute his 1st year… on this team.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
Then why trade for more picks?
That almost certainly would be used on a receiver?
Just grab a low-key vet this year and you are set.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:29 AM EST up reply actions
we drafted smith
fox and hurney were the ones who drafted Steve Smith…just sayin
by SouthernPanther on Feb 11, 2010 8:58 AM EST up reply actions
No, Seifert did they year before Fox came.
That draft also yielded Dan Morgan and Kris Jenkins. Seifert could draft, if nothing else.
Durability.
People keep saying that D-Will will poop out at 30. But people forget he has been sharing carries his whole career. Guys like Tomlinson and Shaun Alexander had been featured backs their whole careers. They were getting almost 350-400 a season. Half the point of having a dynamic backfield duo like this is to keep guys healthy longer. these guys are gonna be able to go further in their careers because they aren’t taking the beating that some of those other guys take. Plus if you watch williams run (this isn’t a knock on him), if he can’t break the tackle, he goes down easy or gets out of bounds to avoid unneccesary hits — thats extremely smart!!)
Note
Chris Johnson had 358 carries this season, tops in the league, this is a typical amount for a featured back. Both Deangelo (216) and J-Stew (221) were way way way under this mark. This will do wonders in extending their careers.
by SouthernPanther on Feb 9, 2010 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
I like the way both of you think
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 2:14 AM EST up reply actions
As Billy Bob said in "Sling Blade",
“I like the way you talk. You talk good.”
DeAngelo could split carries with Sutton as well
Sutton can handle those short yardage situations. And finding another serviceable #3 RB to use in a pinch shouldn’t be too difficult.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Based on what?
His twelve carries this year?
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 2:14 AM EST up reply actions
Yes!
Keary Colbert
Drew Carter
Dwayne Jarett
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
Moose, Keyshawn
Have had season with more than enough production for a #2 WR.
If you recall, a gameplan stressing the passing game, which you so vehemently support, is what got us beat 33-13 against ARZ in the playoffs. What did it take to kick their ass 9 months later….oh yeah, pounding the #1 run-D into the ground.
I dont think he is trying to stress the passing game
I think he is lobbying for balance, and to have the personnel to create that balance. Or to at least be able to pass when we need to.
And we have that personnel
Did you see our offense at the end of the season?
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
I agree we have taken great strides with Moore
However, Moose is well into his twilight. We need a #2
Which we can acquire via FA
No need for a trade.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 13, 2010 9:02 AM EST up reply actions
This should be a no brainer
2 – 1st rounders and 3rd and a 5th??? I would trade anybody in the league, short of a few QBs. But nobody would offer that.
We could use part of those picks to trade for a strong #2 receiver, and still be able to draft another stud RB, or trade picks for one. This would be ridiculous to turn down.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
You COULD draft a #1 receiver, stud RB, etc
Have you considered that they could bust? Then what are we left with. We let go of the bird in the hand to go for the two in the bush, now we got nothing.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 2:16 AM EST up reply actions
You are talking from the heart not with your brain
Two first round picks.
A third round pick.
A fifth round pick.
in exchange for one of the easiest to replace positions in the NFL at which we have TWO pro bowl players.
You would be nuts not to take it.
Our last 9 1st round picks
Everette Brown (valued a 1st)
Jonathan Stewart
Jeff Otah
Jon Beason
DeAngelo Williams
Thomas Davis
Chris Gamble
Jordan Gross
Julius Peppers
Which of these are you referring to as a bust?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 10, 2010 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not saying we drafted first round busts
I’m saying they do happen. That trade is building for the future on a team that is built to win NOW! Running back is one of the easier positions to replace, but busts do happen. Cedric Benson, Eric Shelton, Cadillac Williams. Running back is also one of the more injured positions, if one of Double Trouble goes down, the other is still there to spell and our chances as a team are screwed. That same guy goes down, we are down to Tyrell Sutton, who is not going to make teams respect him as a starter, yet. Now our “killer passing attack” that we’ve traded for is being relied upon to win games instead of to take pressure of the ground game. How do you think it will fare?
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:34 AM EST up reply actions
Other than Shelton, those are bad examples
Cedric Benson, since joining the Bengals, has completely shed his bust label. He put up huge totals last year.
Cadillac Williams was victimized by horrible injuries, but is currently making a decent impact on the Buccs. Some people thought he would never play again. He is playing, and playing pretty darn well.
And Shelton is the anomoly
RBs have come out of nowhere the last few years. It has as much or more to do with run support than it does having a star RB.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 11, 2010 2:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
My point there is that there are busts at every position
And while Cadillac has been victimized by injuries, who’s to say our draftee won’t have the same problem. Or who’s to say whoever stays can handle the extra carries? Both backs have never carried the load for a full season, can they handle it?
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
again i dont think we would ask them to handle a workhorse load
We would either develop what we have, bring someone in, or draft someone. Probably a combination of the above.
Instead of pure 50/50 like it is now, we maybe look at more like 65/35 unless we feel the other guy is good enough to go 50/50
Right, like DWill and Stewart can't split carries with other backs??
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I'm saying with an increase in workload come an increase in the likelihood of injury
And without #1b, our chance’s of success go down in case of injury.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 13, 2010 9:03 AM EST up reply actions
FO STOP BEING CHEAP
just tell the fo to stop being cheap and keep the quality players who actually want to be here they are the heart and soul of this offense.besides i dont believe these guys would be demanding 100 million dollar contracts or anything they are both very humble players who actually love the sport for what it is and not all about the money. to the people who say this is a pass heavy league look at what happened to the patriots they probaly have the best passing attack in the league and didnt make it to the playoffs either so you guys can say all you want about the passing game when it comes to december you need the ground game to carry you. you can run the ball in any weather. DOUBLE TROUBLE 4 LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i'm sure d-wills is a class act, but his agent may feel differently
if the right offer of picks and a proven player comes along, it makes sense to trade d-wills
j-stew is younger, has more years on his contract and we need another WR badly… i happen to like V-Jax a lot… always a great deep threat
This is the WR Free Agency Class
here u go
Brandon Marshall (RFA), WR, Broncos
Miles Austin-Jones (RFA), WR, Cowboys
Vincent Jackson (RFA), WR, Chargers
Braylon Edwards (RFA), WR, Jets
Derrick Mason, WR, Ravens
Antonio Bryant, WR, Buccaneers
Lance Moore (RFA), WR, Saints
Steve Breaston (RFA), WR/PR, Cardinals
Davone Bess (ERFA), WR/PR, Dolphins
Davone Bess (ERFA), WR/PR, Dolphins
Courtney Roby (RFA), KR, Saints
Jason Avant (RFA), WR, Eagles
Terrell Owens, WR, Bills
Malcom Floyd (RFA), WR, Chargers
Nate Burleson, WR, Seahawks
Plaxico Burress, WR, Giants
Chris Chambers, WR, Chiefs
Kevin Walter (RFA), WR, Texans
Matt Jones, WR, Jaguars
Mark Clayton (RFA), WR, Ravens
Muhsin Muhammad, WR, Panthers
Kelley Washington (RFA), WR, Ravens
David Clowney (RFA), WR, Jets
Maurice Stovall (RFA), WR, Buccaneers
Donte Stallworth, WR, Browns
Domenik Hixon, WR, Giants
Sam Hurd (RFA), WR, Cowboy
Demetrius Williams (RFA), WR, Ravens
Troy Williamson (RFA), WR, Jaguars
Bobby Wade, WR, Chiefs
Kassim Osgood, WR, Chargers
Josh Reed, WR, Bills
Hank Baskett (RFA), WR, Colts
Jerheme Urban (RFA), WR, Cardinals
Derek Hagan (RFA), WR, Giants
Brian Clark (RFA), WR, Buccaneers
Ben Obomanu (RFA), WR, Seahawks
Mark Bradley (RFA), WR, Buccaneers
Sinorice Moss (RFA), WR, Giants
Kenneth Moore (ERFA), WR, Panthers
Ruvell Martin (RFA), WR, Rams
Todd Watkins (RFA), WR, Raiders
Mike Furrey, WR, Browns
Adam Jennings (RFA), WR, Lions
Syndric Steptoe (RFA), WR, Browns
Brian Finneran, WR, Falcons
Thanks to www.walterfootball.com
by panthertillidrop on Feb 9, 2010 9:05 PM EST reply actions
I'd love for us to nab Steve Breaston
What would we have to give up for him?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Some good names there
Stallworth could be a bargain. I do think he’s a good guy who made a horrible mistake. Steve Breaston sounds good too. Maybe we could grab someone who can help with kick returns in FA and grab a possession receiver in the draft.
Stallworth and Burleson are my preferred (yet reasonable) picks.. (example, I don’t expect the Cowboys to part ways with Austin)
Sinorice Rice would be a secondary pick..
Jason Avant and Malcolm Floyd would be ‘fall back’ players.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
Add in the guys in the draft
Golden Tate, Arrelious Benn, Brandon Lafell, Mardy Gilyard, Andre Roberts, Eric Decker, all these guys could be very good. And they are well within our range.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 10, 2010 2:18 AM EST up reply actions
I like him too!
I like Tate better though.
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 11, 2010 5:52 AM EST up reply actions
depends on the player and what they can get and how high
of course they both had 1,000 yard seasons. They have a pretty good line. but they got injured a lot. DeAngelo Williams got hurt at the end. Luckily they had Jonathan Stewart to take over. Unless they think Matt Moore can take over for Delhomme, then, no. But if you can get up to a team that does need a RB, Seattle and draft a franchise QB if Bradford or Claussen dropped. you got to really think about it and throw in extra picks, come on, I don’t think any team would trade a future #1 pick, too. But a franchise qb and extra picks is totally worth it and throw in an extra player: WR, because they suck. This years WR is pretty good. D.Bryant, A.Benn, D.Williams, not bad. and with TE J.Gresham, not bad at all. But other tandoms, Peterson and Chester Taylor, this years: Ray Rice and W.McGahee, Terrell Davis and Clinton Portis. Chris Johnson and LenDale White.
dont give up yet
fox has been building this type of run/play action style of offense for a long time just look at the line they are all built to run you guys are freaking out too much all we need is a serviceable #2 threat at receiver to take the pressure off of smitty and a good dt to compliment kemo. we are so close to being there its not funnny if not for the injurys and turn over delhome we would be in the playoffs if you follow fox football you would have seen the trend this year will be OUR year everyone will be back and hopefully they learned how to not put the game in delhomes hands. with what we have we could push for the super bowl for years to come
If you can't fill one WR spot with that list above then you are a silly butt
You certainly don’t go around like a desperate nelly asking every team with a few WRs to trade.
we should probably wait
On judging who is actually available from that list until contracts expire in March to see who is actually available. I don’t see us going after to many RFAs that wouldn’t likely be re-signed by their teams.
slot
earlier this year smith said he wished they would get another #1 cause he would like to play the slot, that could be dangerous for opp.
We don't know that he said that -- that was an offhand comment from Collinsworth on TV.
At least I never saw it in print, as a quote in an interview.
He did say he'd liek someone faster than him to compliment him.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 15, 2010 1:28 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, but doesn't mean the slot position
That’s what I was attributing to Collinsworth — Smith has never mentioned a slot role for himself, that I’ve ever heard.
Yeah, I agree.
We do move Smith around a lot too, so he does get playing time in the slot regardless.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 16, 2010 12:34 AM EST up reply actions
OK
So let me see if I understand you (the ones willing to trade). You would take the most productive component from your O and split it for an unknown? Simple (yes or no)….
Now I think Matt Moore is going to supprise all doubters next year and Fox and Jake screwed us this year. We do need a second WR but not at the cost of screwing the rest of our attack.
Keep the picks we have now and let the cards fall where they may. And deal with “slingblade” peppers and keep him here and lets get a SB win.
No
I would not trade it for an unknown. I would insist on getting a WR who is already productive and a handful of draft picks.
I think you underestimate
Moose’s contribution to the run-game. I think you also underestimate his ability to contribute in the passing game. We need a slot receiver, which can be had with any number of picks that we already have. The way we distribute touches, our 2nd WR will see a maximum of 50 balls. We will not trade a Pro-Bowl RB for that minimal production, sorry. In Madden it is a sound theory.
DING DING DING DING DING
This is it. You’ve hit the nail on the head my friend. For some reason we have never had a true slot receiver. This is exactly what we need. Simple as that, a reliable handed guy who will catch short balls over the middle and get us 10 yards consistently. We need our own little Wes Welker.
by SouthernPanther on Feb 10, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
We had that in Ricky Proehl
Coincidentally his last year as a Panther in 05 was also our most effective in regards to the pass. We also went deep into the playoffs.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:36 AM EST up reply actions
yeah poor guy
To have a career year and then have something like that happen to him.
I usually don’t have much sympathy for patriot players, but I like Welker. Hope he can bounce back.
more assumptions.
No true Panther fan can underestimate Moose. he is awesome. But he is also old. He will not be around much longer (if at all). We have got to get younger at WR. Simple as that.
WR
How about just filling in then and using what we have. The issue with passing has always been Jake…… If we can get a WR thru FA do it but not at the cost of picks or Double Trouble
I just want to say...
DWill and JStew made history by reaching 1100+ yards each. I think sometimes we get carried away, not appreciating what we have. No matter what kind of O-line you have, this has never been done before in the Panthers organization or in the history of football. I promise you, getting rid of one of them for a WR will not help our passing game. We give constant pressure on the opposing defense with Double Trouble. We just needed a QB who could manage the game throughout.
I know that we need another WR (slot, possession, whatever), which we can improve in the upcoming draft or FA. Just to remind you folks, we have the weapons in our passing game. Just think about that. They’re the same WRs that helped us to get to the playoffs with one of the best records in the league the year before. Now that Jake wont be under center throwing picks (hopefully) we have a very good season ahead of us, and let’s not get carried away with this discussion.
And please, no more discussions about Sutton and Goodson. You’re making me cry.
The Hogs of the 80's didn't do what we have done.
And I know the Hogs were better than our O-line, so the changing factor must be Double Troubel.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:37 AM EST up reply actions
Brandon Jacobs and Derrick Ward
Were the last tandom that ran for 1000k each, and the Giants let Ward go…I’m pretty sure there rushing attack wasn’t nearly what it was the year before. So how do we know that trading one won’t backfire and totally F*&% up a good thing…
by SouthernPanther on Feb 11, 2010 9:01 AM EST reply actions
Jacobs or his offensive line should be held responsible for the dropoff in production
2008 stats: 13 games, 219att, 1089yds, 5.0ypc, 15 TD
2009 stats: 15 games, 224att, 835yds, 3.7ypc, 5 TD
Jacobs actually ran LESS per game in 2009 than he did in 2008, so the excuse that he could not carry the extra load cannot be used. He simply was not as effective, or his line was not as effective. He was largely outplayed by his compliment, Ahmad Bradshaw, who was a 7th round pick and a 3rd year player (more proof you can find excellent backs at any stage, especially #2 backs).
I suppose you could say that it broke up some sort of chemistry… but I don’t believe that was the case. It is not like Jacobs and Ward were on the field at the same time, and trading one messed up some sort of timing.
"some sort of chemistry"
How do you know there’s not “some sort of chemistry” going on between Williams and Stewart?
Can you recall another pair of RBs, on any team, that celebrate each other’s TDs or success, as much as these two do? I can’t. WRs, yes. RBs, no.
And ponder this: say we trade one or the other, as you propose — the purpose of which is twofold, as I understand you — 1) to obtain a starting and effective WR#2, and 2) to preempt what you think is the inevitable huge contract demand that one of them will make down the road, forcing a trade later on. Putting aside the damage this does to the “chemistry” aspect of their brotherly relationship, wouldn’t it also force the one remaining here into way more carries, an increased risk of injury, a shorter career, and oh BTW, an immediate demand for more $ for those extra carries?
You’re saying we should cross a bridge before we come to it — I say we may outflank it.
Oh there is definately chemistry.
No doubt they both are great friends and enjoy playing together. They would miss each other… but being professional football players, I believe that one could keep up his own pace of production. I will again state, that I love having them both, and watching them both play together is a true treat. They chemistry comment above, was that unlike trading a QB or WR, you aren’t messing up a timing relationship on the field. Williams and Stewart work independently of each other when one or the other is on the field. They are like great cheerleaders for each other, but they do not have to coordinate on plays.
As to the twofold purpose, you are correct on #1, except that i would demand draft picks along with that #2 WR.
For #2, I am worried that we will have to pay BOTH of them a lot of money, not just one of them, which will hamstring us when trying to sign other positions. I would not expect that the one who remains will become a workhorse back, shortening his lifespan, I expect that we will compliment them with someone yet again. Who that someone is would have to be determined.
All said and done. The question asked was “Is there any trade you would consider to break up double trouble” and my answer is “yes”
But it won’t happen. Not this year.
I'll answer yes
And then ask for:
A bigger johnson
a supermodel sex slave
a winning lottery ticket
Oh and a bag of skittles
Hello, ERL -- I am your Genie -- your wish is my command
Unfortunately, you can only have 3 wishes granted.
Here are your three bags of Skittles, as you requested.
After all this dicussion (and good discussion mind you)
We have officially started dancing in circles… but all should know the likelihood of either one getting dealt this year, in an uncapped year, with a potential lockout ahead is slim to none. However, it is very likely that one day we will have to cope with the reality of a double trouble break up.
Ultimately, I would like to see what the final list of free agents looks after re-signings and all that occur, and then evaluate potential upgrades at WR.
We shouldn't be so emotionally attached to Double Trouble
If you have a staff commited to running, and a big, strong rushing o-line… And a couple guys willing to block down field, then you can run the ball successfully with most decent RBs.
Let’s not act like Stew and DWill did this on their own or like they are the only capable backs in the league. They are REALLY good… But by far are not impossible to replace
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 11, 2010 2:07 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Not impossible
But basically you are trading (lets say Stewart) for a STAR #2 and a first round pick. That first has to be used to replace Stewart, so now we basically traded a known for an unknown while acquiring excess at #2. We don’t need a star at #2, we need an effective threat. Kevin Walter is exactly what we are looking for, and he can be had on the cheap.
And something else that can put this whole debate to rest, who is going to pay for Williams or Stewart? Like you guys have said, running backs can be found easily, so why won’t teams keep their #2’s and first rounders and draft a running back of their own.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
for the same reason you have been preaching
They are both proven.
Some teams have 0 proven backs and have no one really up and coming, and they need someone who can make a big impact right away.
Once they have that solid piece they can bring some guys along a little slower behind them.
And who says we have to use that 1st round pick to replace Stewart? We could just as easily use it on a great WR1 of the future, and have a world of options with our 2nd round pick. Chances are a 1st round RB will still be sitting there in round 2. Given this scenario…
We give up 1 proven commidity, and we get 1 proven commidity. We also get a 1st round pick that will open up numerous options in our draft where we could get even stronger.
I still like the idea of a trade with San Diego… take LT off their hands and a couple draft picks.
If they are proven why are we trading them then?
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 13, 2010 9:04 AM EST up reply actions
Why don't we just trade all our #1 picks for proven players every year then?
I mean since they all have so much bust potential.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Madden
i feel like too many people are basing this off of Madden. In madden its easy to replace a player with a 1st round pick or a 2nd round pick b/c they are never busts in madden. All I’m saying is why screw up a great SURE thing for a RISKY bad, mediocre, good, or great thing…
by SouthernPanther on Feb 11, 2010 2:46 PM EST reply actions
GENIUS!
Off topic does anyone like Mark Herzlich next year to replace Diggs as much as I do?
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 11, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
I dont even play Madden
and on top of that you are assuming we would screw it up. I see plenty of opportunity to come out way ahead on the deal.
Anyway. I’m done. The dead horse has been beat.
I also see plenty of oppurtunity to screw up the best thing since sliced bread.
Either way, I will put away my horse beating stick.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 13, 2010 9:05 AM EST up reply actions
Do you guys want to risk losing one of them with no compensation to FA?
I don’t remember exactly when their contracts are up, but I seriously doubt we are going to pay the salaries of 2 ProBowl backs. And if you don’t do something with them before their contracts up, then they’ll leave for more money else where… And we’ll get NOTHING!
It makes so much sense when you have an abundance of talent at a position to get something for one while you can, in order to spread talent to weaker areas. But what you guys are suggesting will lead to either getting nothing for one of them, or paying an outrageous salary to a backup.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I'll use BigD's bridge analogy
Right now, the bridge is at the next exit. But we still have a few miles to go before we get there. Williams contract expires next season, Stew’s in three years. We can extend Williams, then trade Stew in his contract year. Or trade Williams right before he hits 30 and extend Stew. Point is, we can afford to wait, it’s not going to screw us if we keep them this upcoming year.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 14, 2010 6:51 AM EST up reply actions
And I'd rather cross that bridge with 4 wheels under me, than 2.
More stability, less chance of skidding.
A trade is much easier before the big contract is signed.
But what you are saying is fine… Provided we land a strong #2 receiver in FA, because we aren’t going to get one that will contribute next year with our current draft positions. AND our only leverage in finding that #2 will be out paying all other interested teams, which odds aren’t good.
Actually chances are, without a trade, we’ll just draft another late round receiver bust… OR sign an average #2. Meaning our passing game will probably suffer again next year, and we’ll again fail to make it deep into the playoffs. BUT hey! At least we’ll have multiple ProBowl RBs!
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Okay Southie, it's clear you are convinced in your doom and gloom predictions.
And with our draft position, we can land Mardy Gilyard, Golden Tate, Jeremy Williams, Brandon Lafell, and many others. And you can bring in high quality players at necessary skill positions without a trade, just ask Arizona and Indianapolis. They drafted all their wideouts.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 15, 2010 1:31 AM EST up reply actions
Well I'm a Carolina fan
And my “John Fox” team, with it’s run first mentality, has a history of drafting very good RBs and very bad WRs. Philly has a history of sitting their QB when he plays bad too… But that also has nothing to do with this team.
And I’m not doom and gloom. I’m hoping my team will spread talent around the field, like other teams do… instead of stocking it up on the bench.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 15, 2010 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
John Fox has never really drafted a receiver high
There’s Colbert and Jarret in the second, and I think Carter was a fourth. Carter had speed, but then he got hurt, he could have been very solid for us. But when your bread and butter is speed, you can ill afford multiple knee injuries. Colbert had a great rookie year, then he just fell off the map. Jarret is teetering on the edge of bust, but he is still holding on. My point is that just because you haven’t had success drafting at the position doesn’t mean you avoid it altogether. You could sign a FA if you feel he will give you a better impact, but look at the Lions. Joey Harrington was a bust, did that stop them from taking Matt Stafford with the first pick?
Our talent is spread around the field, just because a lot of it is on the bench doesn’t mean it isn’t on the field. And two backs will have more of an impact in a run oriented offense like ours than an elite #2. Unless you are advocating becoming like New Orleans.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 16, 2010 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
And without making a big trade of some sort...
The highest we will have to possibly get one is again 2nd round.
But I hope you are right… Even though it’s unlike fox to make big FA splashes (he tends to prefer to get his key position talent through the draft), I hope he will keep Double Trouble and still find immediate contributors on our d-line, and WR.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
This post is ridiculous
I am a panther fan and love J-Stew and D-Lo, but the fact is neither one of these guys is worth the trades that you people have proposed. Over the past few years numerious teams have prooven a serviceable RB can be found in the draft or free agency. Coaches know that a good running attack is attained by building a solid O-Line, not by trading away al your drft picks or your best WR for a guy who has looked good splitting time. The fact is, if you have a great offensive line, most current college RB’s could come in a put up decent numbers. And on top of that, J-Stew has had injury problems every year, including his last year at Oregon.
I dont think there is any team out ther willing to offer enough to get us to bite. We will sign Deangelo long term, and when J-Stew’s contract is up, he will sign somewhere else because he will want to be the feature back.
What do I think we could get straight up for J-Stew?
A solid #2 WR, and a 3rd Rd pick.
I agree!
With this o-line and run first coaching, many RBs could come in and do well. Sutton, with his few carries was proof of this.
But the bigger question is would you trade J-Stew for a #2 WR and 3rd pick?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Not until his contract year
if he didn’t want to stay. And I’d ask for at least a first to recoup original value.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 17, 2010 3:19 AM EST up reply actions
No Trade
I would not trade #2 WR and a 3rd RD for J-Stew. just not enough in return, unless we were at a risk of loosing him in FA with no return.
It sounds like most fans are feeling like it is a forgoen conclusion that our first pick this year will be going after our #2 WR. I am not sure I agree with this philosophy. there is a select few players that I would agree with in rd. 2, notably Golden Tate, but he may not be around.
after signing this DT from Indy, does anyone else think we still need help on the D-line? I would like to see another DE out of this draft. I was surpirsed to see Greg Hardy listed on ESPN’s 9th best DE. If that were to hold up, that would make him available when we are picking – now this could be wishful thinking with where Ive seen Hardy on some mocks. Sapp out of Clemson is another guy I like, if avaialble. Selvie from USF would be an interesting combo with Everett Brown. I feel we could benefit from this draft class being top loaded with talent at DT, forcing some of these guys to slide down the board, and then get a WR in the third.
I see jordan Shipley and Jacoby Ford both possibly slipping to the third round. I would like both of those selctions, although it would be nice to get a #2 that is bigger to counter wieght Smitty. On that thought, I like Marcus Easley out of Uconn. and I havent yet given up on Dwyane Jarrett as well, lets give him another year with Moore tossing him the rock. hopefully during preseason workouts we’ll see them build on their chemistry from last season.
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