Panthers Keep or Cut: WR Muhsin Muhammad
by Jaxon on Feb 24, 2010 6:00 AM EST
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PrintThis week's edition of Keep or Cut focuses on veteran and fan favorite WR Muhsin Muhammad. ‘Moose' as we love to call him has been a solid contributor for the Panthers since being drafted by the Panthers in 1996 (except for a three yr hiatus to Chicago). Yet Father Time catches up to all of us and at 37 Moose is getting long in the tooth. Panther fans have spoken about the need to upgrade the WR position; it is currently the number one need per the recent fan poll on this side.
Here's what Moose delivered last season:
G 14 GS 13 Rec. 53 for 581 yards, Avg of 11.0 with a long of 27yds, TD 1
His salary cap hit was around $1.75M in 2009. Though Moose is now considered a possession receiver he also remains a solid contributor in the Panthers running game. So the big question remaining is whether the Panthers tender him a one-year offer as insurance in case they are unable to obtain a WR to fill the #2 spot or Dwayne Jarrett is still unable to get it done. Moose can still contribute on third downs and is a solid presence in the locker room and as a mentor to the younger guys.
I would be remiss not to mention he holds the Super Bowl record for longest reception at 85 yards (TD) from the Panthers lone SB appearance in 2003. That still stands as one of the greatest single plays in Panther history.
Finally, some of his career stats: 860 receptions for 11,438 yards and 62 TDs. A very nice 2nd round draft pick for the Panthers. Will they work the same 2nd round magic this year?
So what say ye Panthers fans, keep (re-sign) or cut (not re-sign)?
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I voted 'kee[' but there's an asterisk involved
I think Moose truly believes he’s still able to play at a high level and be a productive #2 receiver. If that’s the case and he would only accept a deal predicated on the notion he’s the #2, then sadly I have to say ‘cut him’.
We have to start at least trying to groom someone for the position. Whether that is giving more snaps to Dwayne Jarrett of drafting a receiver.
If Moose is willing to accept a deal and fight for the #2 position, but happily play in the slot should he not win the open competition then sign away! He is a great locker room presence and a stand up guy.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com
What player thinks he's signing a contract with control of personnel decisions?
He’s a much more mature player than he once was. He’d take whatever position on the depth chart he earns.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 24, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
That’s alot of speculation.
All I’m saying is that the team is going to be straight with him. I don’t honestly know if he’d accept being a #3 receiver, as he still really believes he’s far from being done.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com
Where do you think he'd be one of the top two receivers?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 25, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
Kansas City
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com
Chambers is also an FA.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 26, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
So he'd be #2 over Wade.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 27, 2010 3:35 AM EST up reply actions
Wade is also an FA.
But if you don’t think they’ll draft or sign a better receiver than Muhammad, you must not think they know what they’re doing at all.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 28, 2010 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
Well if WR was their only need, I'd say you were right
But it’s not, so they might get Moose as a stopgap and another rookie. And if there is one thing we (read as you) know about rookie receivers, it’s that they need significant development.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Mar 1, 2010 1:37 AM EST up reply actions
Oh...
And we’ve hardly held Jarrett back. Snaps have to be earned, not given.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 24, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
When did I say the team was holding Jarrett back?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at www.realbitsofpanthers.com
"We have to start at least trying to groom someone for the position. Whether that is giving more snaps to Dwayne Jarrett of drafting a receiver."
That comment suggests that they haven’t been trying all along.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 25, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
We really haven't put a lot of energy, besides Jarret, into building the receiver position.
Not many high picks. And while that comment could be interpreted as us not trying to groom anyone, it doesn’t suggest we have held him back because he hasn’t earned snaps. If we give Jarret more snaps, I think that he will continue to develop.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 26, 2010 5:29 AM EST up reply actions
Colbert?
We’ve also put other picks on the position into Walter Young, Drew Carter, and tried to sign plenty of productive UFAs (Taylor Stubblefield, Charly Martin, et al)
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 26, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Two second round picks under Fox
along with some later round picks and UDFA from other teams. I’m not too terribly impressed.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 27, 2010 3:36 AM EST up reply actions
I think we've put a ton of failed energy into finding Smith's #2
Carter, Colbert, Keyshaun… But we sucked so bad at it that we had to bring back the old man. I think Jarret can be good in this league, primarily based on some of the tough grabs he’s made. But I question his motivation. I’m not confident he’ll ever be consistent.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 27, 2010 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
I'm going to go with most recent performance.
Jarrett looked to have a lot of fire in the belly in the last game. He came up with some tough catches, and getting his first taste of the NFL end zone looked very juicy to him.
He has a high % of catches for FDs, plays tough over the middle, has a large target area, and stated to show some downfield ability. He may be one of those WRs who just take 2-3 years to come into their own.
Looking over Jarrett's season last year..
I’d have to say it was highly inconsistent with flashes of brilliance. Either he was ON and catching all, or most of, the balls thrown his way, or he was OFF catching none.
With a little consistency, I think Jarrett has the talent we have all been looking for.
But I don't remember him dropping or not grabbing catchable balls
It just seems like sometimes he’s out there running around with nothing coming his way. Maybe our QBs need to start looking for him more… He does have a large target area, even when covered.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
And GREAT hands
He was also getting open downfield, which is what excites me the most.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Mar 1, 2010 1:38 AM EST up reply actions
Usually I would agree, but I'm not sure that is true on this team
Fox has an unwavering loyalty to veterans and he never hesitates to let a talented young guy sit in favor of a Vet. See Dan Connor — hard worker, everyone knows he is better than Diggs at this point, yet we see Diggs on the field. See Matt Moore — Jake Delhomme throws our whole season to the other team but Fox sticks by him until he breaks a finger. See Sherrod Martin — 3 INTs in his first 3 starts, yet when Godfrey gets back Martin drifts back into the unknown of the bench. On most teams I’d agree, you earn your snaps, but I’m not so sure thats the case for the Panthers. From what I saw, Jarrett really was pretty good when he got on the field last season. He tied Moose for touchdowns in a ridiculously smaller number of chances. I saw him catch a lot more of the balls thrown his way including a CLUTCH 4th down catch in the NO game.
by SouthernPanther on Feb 24, 2010 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
Uhh...no.
Give me some definitive proof that Connor is better than Diggs. Delhomme could have looked just as good as Moore had the defense put him in position to do so. And Martin hadn’t even practiced as a safety all season. That certainly limited their play calls when he was in as the FS. You’re not there every day in practice. The coaching staff is.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 25, 2010 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
I really hate to get into a Delhomme debate
because we’ve rehashed all the points, but the defense turned it on at Washington. Delhomme’s numbers after Washington are hardly impressive either. 10 INT’s in the eight games after the bye before Moore came in, to only 5-6 scores. Add to that the coaching staff had to limit the playcalling. The fact remains that our offense put points on the board consistently with Moore, not with Delhomme.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 26, 2010 5:34 AM EST up reply actions
I still think Jake's accuracy was never right after the surgery
He’s been under or over throwing deep balls ever since. Even the clips I look at from 2008 the ball looks wobbly, and I constantly see Steve or Moose coming back to it… rarely in stride. The difference was in 2009 DCs were more aware of this and keeping DBs over and under the WRs routes. Since we only run 2 wide, this was an easy cover.
Combine that with Jake always being antsy under pressure and there you have his down-fall.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Really?
Have you seen Dan Connor in preseason games…He is a tackling machine. Plus he a was one of the best linebackers in school history at penn state. Meanwhile its obvious Diggs has lost something. I saw Diggs miss a number of tackles this year because he has simply gotten slower and can’t change direction as quickly. Either put Connor in or let James Anderson play, but either of them at this point would be more solid than Diggs. As for Martin, even if he didn’t practice safety all season, its his natural position. How can you argue with the numbers to. He got three picks in 3 starts and DOMINATED in the Arizona game. I’m not saying I’m at practice every day, but that doesn’t mean somethings aren’t obvious just by watching the games. Apparently Jake Delhomme was a lot better in practice, but I don’t see anyone complaining about how Matt Moore played in games.
by SouthernPanther on Feb 26, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
Connor looks great in the preseason when he's surrounded by inferior talent on both sides of the ball, sure...
But Diggs is a steady veteran whose mental acuity for the game likely far surpasses Connor’s at this point.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 26, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
Connor was a machine on ST, with 14 tackles, sure, but...
Diggs is only debited with 3 missed tackles, in 411 snaps
http://www.profootballfocus.com/cstats.php?tab=by_team&season=2009&teamid=5&stype=a&stats=d
He’ll be 32 in July, true, but I haven’t thought of him as slowing down yet. The last 2 games of the season were two of his best.
All that said, Connor’s time will come.
by bigdavis on Feb 28, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
btw
You said “Delhomme could have looked as good as Moore had the defense put him in position to do so.” I totally disagree. Delhomme turnovers were making our defense look bad. Plus its disheartening to a defense to get a stop on third down, get the ball back, and then march right back onto the field because your QB just threw another pick. When Moore helped our offense by not turning the ball over, our defense magically got a lot better…coincidence…I think not.
by SouthernPanther on Feb 26, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
It's also disheartening to the offense to see the defense totally unable to make a stop, ever.
See the eight consecutive drives Arizona scored in the playoff game against the D when it was “all Dlehomme’s fault.”
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 26, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
Umm...
I’m not talking about last season, I’m talking about this season. I’ve never been a fan of Mike Trgovac’s defense…
by SouthernPanther on Feb 26, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
Why are you still stretching so much for Jake
You sang his praises all last off-season, and he proved you wrong. I know its hard to swallow, but you are the only one left that won’t admit it.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 27, 2010 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
I voted CUT
As much as I love Moose, it is time we gave a younger player the chance to prove himself. I still believe that Jarett will prove to be better this year provided Moore is the QB. Jake does not believe in younger players and will not target them.
We have a great team this year and if we do not train a few young panther cubs, the next years will be even worse.
Bullshit.
Delhomme targeted the secondary receivers at almost an identical rate to Moore.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 24, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
What secondary receivers are you referring to?
That got as many opportunities as Smitty and Moose? Do you really think Jake didn’t look to Smitty before Jarret?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 25, 2010 12:09 AM EST up reply actions
I'm talking about Jarrett, Moore, Rosario, King, and Barnidge.
Moore did not throw to any of them (outside of week 17 when Smith was out) significantly more often than Delhomme did.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 25, 2010 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
Lol, Yeah right
You are saying Moore didn’t throw to anybody but Moose and Smitty, except for one week. I’ll have to look that one up.
How about when throwing to Moose and Smitty? Which one completed the most without throwing picks?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 25, 2010 3:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Wait, what?
You’re saying Delhomme literally never threw to them? Funny, I feel like that’s not true.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 25, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
I never said anything remotely close to that
You said Moore didn’t throw to any of them outside of week 17. That’s what’s so funny.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 25, 2010 5:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No, I didn't.
I said he did not throw to them significantly more often than Delhomme did. Reading is FUNdamental!
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 26, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
I guess you typed an exageration or sarcasm
But since you don’t allow me that… Here’s what you typed, that you didn’t really mean…
Moore did not throw to any of them (outside of week 17 when Smith was out)
Typing is FUNdamental!
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 27, 2010 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry, south, but read the whole sentence.
There are 6 more words after the word out)
I'm just messing with him, because that's what he does to everyone else
Everyone knows what people mean, yet he’ll exaggerate things over literally just to start an argument.
But wait… when did you become so chummy with Procton?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
He didn't
He just didn’t want to see you embarass yourself. :)
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Mar 1, 2010 1:40 AM EST up reply actions
Exaggerating≠misrepresenting.
If you can’t properly read a sentence, that’s not my fault.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2010 2:03 AM EST up reply actions
i voted keep
one i want him to stay and retire a panther and 2 he can be a safety net for us. we pick up someone in free agency or the draft and if they dont work we still have moose. he can still play, is a great locker room presence, and unlike someone (peppers) he wants to stay in carolina.
My guess is the Panthers offer a 2 yr deal at about $1M per season
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
i was thinking along the same lines
but m guess was a one year 700 though deal. what also helps his chances of coming back is that he is willing to play a lesser role
by pantherpride on Feb 24, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
I'd love to have him back.
But he can’t be our best option at #2. And we can’t pay more than the $1 mil or so Jaxon suggests.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
def. not at #2 but i'd love to have him at the #3 position.
He’s a great safety net and can convert that critical 3rd down when needed. Not to mention his leadership, character and work ethic. But we’re long overdue for another threat to complement SS.
#2 is the big question... who is it?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 25, 2010 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
I vote keep
But there is no way that we can bring back Moose as our #2 receiver. He’s too old and he’s not going to get much separation anymore against starting corners. We’ve got to find someone that can come in and give Moore a 2nd option. Then we can put Moose as our 3rd receiver and run 3 receiver sets more often.
He’s still a good player, and unlike Peppers he’s a guy that actually tries hard and comes onto the football field wanting to win a game. Let’s keep him till the wheels fall off.
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
Keeping Moose without bringing in a solid #2 FA, will assure Moose as the #2
We don’t have anyone better than him. And Hurney doesn’t sound like he’s interested at all in making a splash in free agency. Maybe we’ll draft one in the 2nd round. But that would still mean in 2010 Moose is our best option #2. Unless we want to hand it to Jarret and see what happens.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
So would it be better to leave him off the roster and have an even WORSE #2?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 25, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think so
You should bring somebody in and make him #3. But it’s not sounding like that’ll happen. So Moose will again be our best option #2.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Feb 25, 2010 3:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm all for keeping him
His blocking is invaluable, and he has a great knowledge of how to get open. If we use him in the slot on shorter crossing routes instead of bombing it to him deep, he can be a valuable weapon. IMO Jarret definitely needs to see more snaps, at least so we can set our minds at ease. I think Moose will be let go to start FA, then if he is still available and we still have a need we bring him back. He might still retire, who knows?
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
can you blame them?
Who would want to come here not knowing who’s going to be at the most important position on the field?
Draft Gilyard!
Not ESPN's opinion...
That was Pat Yasinksas repeating what Mark Yarbro said on a radio show — might have been on an ESPN thread, but third hand opinion.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcsouth/post/_/id/8420/panthers-may-have-trouble-finding-no-2-wr
No RFA WR would have a problem coming to the Panthers, if the $ was right. Matter of fact, it’s a golden opportunity for a #2 receiver.
But reading what Hurney had to say in his PC, I think they go to the draft, anyway — our hopes for filling holes with FAs are probably going to be dashed, as they allocate the $ saved from Peppers to other young Panthers who need their contracts more in line with their production.
Pat Yasinkas
is one of the worst writers i’ve ever read…don’t read to much into what he says. He also though sticking with Jake Delhomme was the right decision because he said Matt Moore wasn’t good enough to play.
by SouthernPanther on Feb 25, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
Yasinskas wasn't the only one.
The entiretly of the Panthers staff felt the same way. And why wouldn’t they? He’d never played anywhere near as well as he did at the end of this season, and he wasn’t even able to beat out Josh McCown in an open competition for the backup job. Josh. McCown.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 25, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
Based on what the staff saw in practice with Moore
that was probably the case. We can crucify Fox for not going to Moore sooner, but the fact is we are really looking at it in hindsight. Moore must not have been showing enough in practice to warrant Fox essentially gambling his entire season on him.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 26, 2010 5:39 AM EST up reply actions
...
It’s not much of a gamble to put Matt Moore in the games when your Quarterback is averaging almost 2 picks a game. Moore couldn’t have done any worse.
by SouthernPanther on Feb 26, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
We were still in the playoff hunt
Delhomme had done quite a bit before the year, and had looked alright at times this season. Atlanta, Arizona, NO. And while he may not have done worse, based on what Fox saw in practice, he probably wouldn’t do any better. If Fox had ditched Delhomme, he’s essentially betting his job on an UDFA who hasn’t shown much in practice. Fox is too smart for that.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 27, 2010 3:39 AM EST up reply actions
Fox was too LOYAL for that.
The smart part is up for debate.
In any event, things have a way of working out. As I’ve said in the past, Brett Favre only got to play because of an unexpected injury to the GB starter, Dan Majkowski, in the 3rd game of 1992. Before that, Favre had shown nothing in brief appearances, throwing 0 TDs and 3 INTs.
But once he got his chance, as they say, the rest is history. Prior to Majkowski’s injury, could anyone say the GB coach had any confidence in what they’d seen from Favre?
I’m not advocating for Moore to be another Favre, but there are similarities in the circumstances at this early stage.
Yep
You just summed it up, Moore had shown nothing to warrant Fox entrusting his job to him. Loyalty didn’t have much to do with it at that stage, Jake was playing awful. Had Moore shown he was a competent backup, or had we been eliminated, Delhomme would have hit the bench.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Mar 1, 2010 1:42 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, he's lucked his way into coaching the team that has more wins since his arrival than all but six other franchises.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Mar 1, 2010 2:04 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, #2s can't be successful here.
Just look at how bad Muhammad’s ’08 was. 923-5 is sorry as hell for a #2! Forget that it was the 26th best season of any wideout in the league that year.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 25, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
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