Carolina Panthers' question of the week: Should the Panthers make Julius Peppers the highest paid defensive player of all time?
by James The Aussie on Feb 2, 2010 9:57 AM EST
45 comments
The question was going to come up sooner or later, and since Carl Carey (Peppers' agent) is determined to make this an issue of sooner, rather than later we might as well hash out this discussion at CSR.
Much like last week's discussion about the Panthers drafting a QB lets keep this civil folks, don't forget the new ToS. It's hot button topics like this and the ensuing conversation that often pushed the ToS to its limits.
Roughly a month back I asked how much Peppers was worth to the Panthers. Now it appears we have a ballpark figure of what Peppers and Carey think he should be paid. The question to you, the fans, is if Peppers is worth it.
There's no denying that Julius Peppers has amazing talent, but it's never his talent that has come into question it's his work ethic and desire. He seems to still be somewhat of an enigma, as I feel Julius still hasn't reached his full potential. For a long time I've said Peppers could be the most dominant defensive player to ever play in the National Football league. I truly believe that Pep could be more of a force between the hash marks than Lawrence Taylor was, but I still don't really believe he has the desire to be that player.
Now, to put this issue in perspective let's look at the 5 highest defensive ends in the NFL, as well as Albert Haynesworth, who while not a DE, is the highest paid defensive player in the NFL and the mark that Peppers would top.
|
Names |
Years |
Amount |
|
Albert Haynesworth |
7 |
$100 million |
|
6 |
$73.26 million |
|
|
6 |
$72 million |
|
|
7 |
$63 million |
|
|
6 |
$54 million |
|
|
6 |
$45 million |
So, let the discussion begin. Is Julius Peppers worth being paid more than not only all 5 of the top paid DEs, but also more than Haynesworth's $100 million deal?
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Maybe if he played his best football every down
but he doesn’t and a player like Jared Allen who isn’t as physically gifted does.. so NO!!
63M for 5 years
I am not sure of the offer the Panthers made him 2 years ago which he declined. But at this point an offer of 63-65M for 5 years may be OK. Anything more than that would be overkill.
He is a good DE, but the one this we need to remember is that we have a few LB and RB that are contributing more to this team than Peppers. How much do we pay them?
those deals are irrelevant
He didn’t want to be here, he likes how he’s used now. He had a good time this year. The beginning of the year they were learning meeks. They got it figured out later on and it showed. Pep broke his hand and still got double digit sacks. The guy wasn’t the pep that everyone is used to complaining about. He is gameplanned for. He contributed greatly to our defensive efforts.
So based on this I think he should be paid as one of the best. Up to 15 mill a year. But I don’t think we will even offer that this year. I think both parties will want the tag for this season if its uncapped. And negotiations will take place for the 2011 season after the cba is all figured out. If he plays hard every down this season then we need to pay.
All this talk of he doesn’t give it his all needs to be put to rest. Its a thing of the past as far as I’m considerd. We are all ready to say jake is done…only one person on here brings up what he used to do. And we all say that’s irrelevant. Give pep his shot.
Richardson you better not screw this up for me!
by STEVEN 785 on Feb 2, 2010 11:01 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
agree and disagree
i agree that pep really does bring his best every game. over the last two seasons, very few players have outperformed him on the DL. Haynesworth certainly hasn’t. I think he is better than Abraham, Freeney, and Jared Allen, also. I disagree about paying him the money, though. Haynesworth deal is really not as big as it looks, considering he’ll never see all of it. He might be entering his last year in washington. It’s just that Pep is 30 yrs old, and we have other needs on the team. At this point, I’d rather have Haynesworth with Brown and Johnson starting at DE. Of course, that would be with Haynesworth making a helluva a lot less money. I just don’t think his level of play is $1 million a game better than Brown. He’s worth a lot, and he’s the best DL in the league in my opinion, but that’s too much if you ask me. At the end of next season, assuming there is football in 2011, I suspect we’ll be handing out new money and we can’t afford for his cap number to go up every year as we try to bring in new guys to plug holes.
I also beleive we can win it all next year without him. I would like to sign him to a deal that gets us a trade for a 1st rd pick, but i don’t see that happening. I just think that we have enough talent overall to win it all, and we will without him.
by usana_gaines on Feb 2, 2010 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think he can be replaced. Maybe he can but I can’t see it. I don’t think he should get a mill a game. Some kind of high incentive contract…but guaranteed at least 12. but our overall performance on the DL would drop and would effect our coverage. I can’t see it going any other way if he left.
Richardson you better not screw this up for me!
by STEVEN 785 on Feb 2, 2010 12:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He’s the only guy we have on defense that our opponents have to game plan for. If he leaves, the LB’s and secondary will have to account for one more HB/FB/TE/WR running a route and not chipping or helping the o-line. I love our talent and depth on the line, but he is the only game changer we have in the trenches.
So people don't gameplan for Beason?
TD? Harris? Peppers is good, and a force to be reckoned with, don’t get me wrong, but we have enough talent to replace him should negotiations go bad. Despite what the Grinch, er, I mean Mr. Carey says, I’m not ready to believe we are at that point.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 3, 2010 2:51 AM EST up reply actions
My opinion is no they don't
There is a difference between a coach making sure his players are cognizant of the great players with exceptional skills on the other team (Beason, TD, Harris, Gamble) and a coach ensuring that a player is accounted for on each snap.
A QB may hesitate or be more cautious making throws in the middle of the field because he is aware of Beason exceptional range and ball skills, but that doesn’t mean the offensive coordinator is going to make sure all routes are ran outside the hashes.
OC’s sacrifice weapons in the passing game to ensure that there are multiple blockers assigned to slowing down the edge rush. The thing I love about Meeks/Baker is that they allow Peppers to switch sides and positions on the D-Line to counter what the offense is trying to do as far as match ups in pass protection are concerned .
Don’t get me wrong, all those guys you named are game changers in their own right, but its different when you have one in the trenches. I could be totally wrong here, but that’s how I see it.
What about in the running game?
Do they pull a guard, stretch the line, try and catch Beason and TD in the wash? Beason, Peppers, and Harris all have talents that must be accounted for, and that will be covered in the gameplan. That’s what I define gameplanning for.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 4, 2010 3:02 AM EST up reply actions
Valid point, but I still disagree
I think the running game is a totally different situation. Assignments in a running play are very seldom changed once they’ve been installed. (training camp, OTA’s, mini camp) If a guard is supposed to pull on a certain play, he’s going to pull no matter what LB corp they are facing that particular week. I agree that teams may choose to or not to run a stretch play to one side or the other depending on the LB’s or if Chris Harris is down in the box on a particular side. But I’m yet to see a QB call a run play then tap a guard on the butt and say " instead of blocking your assigned zone or man I need you to pull this time so we can slow down LBx or SSy". The QB would just call a different run play he felt more comfortable with.
On the other hand in the passing game QB’s have the freedom to tell the full back or TE to say in and block this time or to make sure you get a good chip on the edge rusher before releasing into their route. Hell, some teams (including the Panthers when Gross got hurt) have scrapped entire formations from their game plans to minimize the damage that can be created by a premier edge rusher.
So the bottom line of both of my long winded posts is this, if we lose Peppers our defense will suffer, maybe not a catastrophic breakdown but it will be a step in the wrong direction. Those doube teams and the “help” that #90 sees each week will be shifted to one of those players we named earlier. I personally have more confidence in #90 to beat some if not most of those situations. Teams have been playing him like that since Rucker left.
But, and this is a huge BUT, I do not agree with making him the highest paid defender of all time. He blew that opportunity about 2 years ago. 12 – 14 million for 5-6 years is about as high as I would go to keep him. But leadership has to atleast try their best to keep him for the sake of the rest of the defense and not because he’s from here.
They may not change a play to do that
but they will call more of those plays in the weekly gameplan. That’s what I mean by gameplanning against.
But yeah I agree with most of your post, there will be a dropoff, Peppers has missed his chance.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 5, 2010 3:08 AM EST up reply actions
Ignore Haynesworth's obscene number.
It was an aberration, and won’t/shouldn’t be duplicated for any defensive lineman.
But Peppers deserves to be in the category of salary that’s being paid, on average, to Allen and Freeney — all are considered as disruptive (in any given game). That is, it’s justifiable to pay him around $12myn per, as those 2 are getting.
Age comes into the equation, too, as John Abraham is 1 1/2 – 4 years older than the ptyhers mentioned, and he seems to have lost a bit of his effectiveness the last year, as he turned 32. Peppers is only a month older than Freeney, 2 years younger than Allen. I can’t see a 6 year deal justified, maybe 3-4, and incentive laden, somewhere around the $12myn per average that those 2 get.
It’s fair, it’s comparable; neither Pep nor his agent can show that he’s more productive than either of them — so pay him as they’re being paid. If he doesn’t accept such a reasonable offer, bid him farewell and good luck.
inflation
i agree with you, but every year in the FA market, it seems that prices go up. The market goes up. So if Pep got a new deal the same year as Freeney, I think he should have been paid more than Freeney. But now I can’t see him taking less than $15 a year. Here’s the kicker, though, suppose the highest bid for him is 14 mil a year, should we go 14.5 or just walk away. if we go 14.5 or 15, and he accepts another deal for less pay, we look like idiots.
by usana_gaines on Feb 2, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
No way...but maybe this is a solution
Use the Transition Tag on his.
A transition tag is a tool used by National Football League teams to retain unrestricted free agents. It guarantees the original club the right of first refusal to match any offer the player may make with another team. The transition tag can be used once a year by each club unless they elect to use a franchise tag instead. Transition tags can be rescinded, however, teams that rescind a transition tag cannot use it again until the next season.
This allows pep to negotiate but they all need to work together. The Panthers get with Carey and say fine, we get it that he is leaving but we are not going to let him go empty handed. You find a team willing to pay your price and give us a 1st rounder. Bring us the deal and we will match it and execute a sign and trade deal. Both sides can put poison pills in the language to keep someone from backing out or getting screwed (see the link for poison pill examples).
Yes players hate the T-Tag but why would the Panthers care if he is leaving anyway. The reason for the tag is to get some compensation, not keep Pep.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
ignore the 'on his'...not sure how I left that in there
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
+2
We may use that on peppers or any of the other UFAs this year. I like that idea. Has the panthers used that before on any players?
by Indian Panther on Feb 2, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
The transition tag doesn't help in Peppers' case
The transition tag is a cheaper version of the franchise tag. It uses the avg. for the top 10 salaries for the position rather than the top 5. However, both tags require a minimum raise of 20%. Peppers earned more than the avg. last year so either tag requires an offer of 120% of what he made last season. The other difference from the franchise tag is that gives the team the right of first refusal but no draft picks. In the past, teams got to use either the franchise tag or the transition tag once. Next year they get an extra tag. Either one FT and one TT, or two TT’s
Thre transition tag does help, alot.
You’re assuming with the 20% raise that Carey and Peppers would want to remain in Carolina for another single season with no guarantee. That wont happen again.
Yes, his salary of $20 million is huge, but I bet if you transition tender Peppers some team is going to offer upwards of $30 million guaranteed in addition to his salary.
The right of first refusal deal means a sign and trade could be tabled where a team offers Peppers a deal, the Panthers refuse… match it, then immediately trade him to that same team.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Feb 2, 2010 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
i disagree
right now, there is no offer on the table at all for pep. i think he gets an offer from the panthers in the next few weeks. if we use the transition tag, he has no reason to listen to any offers. i think he enjoyed playing in carolina last year, had a productive, pro bowl season, and realizes we can win it all next year. additionally, we have some depth at DE, even though the other guys aren’t on his level. With all that said, we have the leverage, unlike last year. He knows that, so if we offer him $20 million in a TT or FT scenario, he’ll take it. He’s not worth $20 mil a season. Then, if there is football in 2011, we’re right back in this position again. We need a long term solution. We offer him a deal, and he can take it or leave it.
by usana_gaines on Feb 2, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
Per Darin Gantt about 2 weeks back on 'Primetime with the Packman'
His sources told him that Carey and Julius want a deal that would make him the highest paid defensive player of all time. A deal that was offered to Julius last season, but he declined. At that time he would have made more than Jared Allen, but now, he wants roughly $15 million per season, with performance escalators that would take him above $100 million and Haynesworth’s mark.
There’s a great deal of risk playing in the NFL with one year left on a contract, which is why so few players do it. Not only is there a risk of injury, but also a risk that a bad season sets you back monetarily. It would be shortsighted of Pep to play on another franchise tag and risk all that.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Feb 2, 2010 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly...by using a T-Tag vs F-Tag
it removes the two 1st round pick requirement to move him. It doesn’t change the cap hit sure…but that’s all short term anyway. It allows Pep to go find another deal and bring it to the Panthers. I think the Panthers can get a 1st round pick for Peppers realistically if Carey is willing to work with the Panthers and they trust each other.
My whole thought process is how do the Panthers keep him from walking and only getting the 3rd round comp pick. They should get more than that but agree if some team has to make him the highest paid defender trying to get a lot of picks may not be realistic.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
well, maybe
if you get pep, you won’t have the money to sign too many picks, certainly not a high-priced pick. honestly, i could see him going to dallas, washington, or oakland. i think oakland will just have extra money to spend. i mean, look at what they pay other free agents (javon walker, deangelo hall). the cowboys and redskins have owners who think they can win now, and he may be the missing link. in an uncapped year, the redskins could afford to pay sam bradford, pep and haynesworth. and this will be haynesworth’s last year in washington.
Why would the Panthers even make any offer?
It’s going to be rejected no matter the number…why not let some other team set the bar by using the T-Tag? No matter what the Panthers offer Carey’s first thought is going to be “I can get a better deal somewhere else”. So why risk insulting him? Tag him and say go find your new team, we want a 1st round pick, eve if it a 2011 pick. Then we can trade OUR 2011 pick for one in the this years draft, like we love to do!
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
The REAL value of the Haynesworth deal is 4 years, $48 million.
Not that any of these contracts we’ve got listed here are ever going to go to full completion, but Haynesworth is scheduled to make $29mil in the fifth year of the deal, so that’s how you know where its real-world cut-off is.
Peppers is one of the few players who had a big-time rookie contract and played it out completely without renegotiating. I can’t remember very many players who’ve played a high-profile contract out like that.
But the real question is how much should he make per-year. Could we afford to pay him $1mil/game for the next few years? (Honestly, I wouldn’t mind; I love getting and sending text messages to my friends during the game like “That was a one million dollar sack!”) I think he’s already at the top end of the market value for the elite players at his position, so I think keeping him right in the $15-17 mil / year range is fair and equitable.
But understand that he’s only ever signed one contract, Franchise Tag not withstanding, and, as I said before, he played that one to completion. You can expect his intention to do the same with his second contract, which means that silly numbers on the back-end of the contract to boost its perceived value (ala Haynesworth) will likely present problems when he expects to be payed those dollars.
I know James doesn’t think much of Carey, Peppers’s agent, since the guy only represents Pep and has therefore only negotiated only one contract. But I think the guy’s shrewd and smart and likely to fight for real contract value rather than the perceived contract value that help other agents land new clients.
I'm glad I didn't have to go look this up.
Haynesworth’s deal was mainly for show.
He deserves a top 5 contract and he will get one and I honestly hope its with the Panthers.
However,
I’m not sure what the front office is waiting for, Peppers and his agent have said he would be willing to play anywhere with any scheme. Peppers move is obvious, get as many teams interested as possible putting pressure on the Panthers to make an offer. If he wants $100million transition and let him walk no player (outside of QB) is worth that much money. But a contract worth between Smith’s and Allen’s is easily acceptable and worth the investment for a 5 year contract.
But why the stone wall from the Panthers? Last year all we heard was “Keeping Peppers is our number one priority” and this year silence. The man had a great year, he had two great years in a row in fact, and for more then half the games he played (uninjured) he was dominate. The new D Scheme is solid and with some run support upgrades could be the best in the league, but it takes exceptional players to execute even the best schemes (see Denver). Brown is a year or two and 25lbs from being a dominate DE but I don’t think he’s as good as Peppers.
The man wants to play here, he excels in the system, has unquestioned respect in every locker room, and the Panthers are playing hard to get. I don’t get it and I hope its not a prelude to deeper issues in the team.
But why the stone wall from the Panthers? Last year all we heard was "Keeping Peppers is our number one priority" and this year silence. The man had a great year, he had two great years in a row in fact, and for more then half the games he played (uninjured) he was dominate.
Well, I think the one thing we learned this year is that we need players at all 11 positions on defense and all 11 on offense, and his contract really made it hard to acquire the experienced depth we needed all around the team. So if there’s anything that might work against our bringing him back, it’s the crushing weight of his contract on the team’s roster flexibility. I don’t know if they’d be willing to suffer that again for any position other than QB.
But man, I agree with you, I hope it’s not a bigger problem with player retention down the road. I don’t want to see DWill dressing for any other team when his contract runs out!
by r3 on Feb 2, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
14mil/year, 5 years, 70 mill total.
And whatever incentives they feel the need to offer.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
Large upfront money
A large reason many are not willing to make peppers the highest paid defensive player in the league is how he will affect the salary cap. Well, since 2010 is an uncapped year, the Panthers could offer a huge contract front loaded his first year. That way when the cap returns his impact isn’t as large.
With the news that Peyton will receive a new contract and the news that his last one was really front loaded, it made me realize next year is a prime year to dole out large contacts that pay a large sum in the first year and dramatically less the following years. The first year would be guaranteed and the remaining years would be incentive based.
I agree with the others, the Albert Haynesworth contract is a load of bull.
I’ll say a six year contract for 70-73 million dollars. Plenty of incentives as well for winning playoff games and making the Pro-Bowl.
Also include a bowl of chips and a 2 liter coke for Pepper’s agent Carl ^^;
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
An inside look at how Carl and the negotiations are going:
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Feb 3, 2010 7:24 AM EST up reply actions
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
Absolutely genius!
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
:D
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 4, 2010 3:03 AM EST up reply actions
NO NO NO
You fellas are telling me you would shell out that kind of money to a guy entering his what 9th NFL season. Mostly all DE are done by the time they are 34yrs of age. Peppers was and still is a effective player but he is no longer worth the type of cash he wants especially upfront.
I want to be able to keep D-Will, BEASON umm Hello, and lastly T. Davis to long term deals regardless what happens with the 2011 season.
We need to think about the future and Peppers is about to be in our past, accept the 3rd rounder and let him go to freakin Miami, Houston, Pats, whereever.
The fact of the matter is we are not going to pay him that type of money and we are not going to kill our team again by franchising him.
See ya Pep.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Feb 2, 2010 10:39 PM EST reply actions
Franchising him wouldn't kill our team this year
because of the cap, or rather the lack of one. Sign him long term, frontload the deal, and use the extra cap space we have this year to extend Davis, Marshall, and one or two of Williams, Kalil, Stewart, and Beason. That will give us long term cap flexibility, and clean up our books.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 3, 2010 3:00 AM EST up reply actions
I keep wavering...
He is a freak. This we all know. He’s getting older, this we also know. How long til his motor slows down? Who knows. I love JP. Heck, it was fun watching him play basketball at UNC (and I’m a Duke fan). I was stoked when he was drafted by the Panthers.
I’m not sure about the whole taking off plays thing. He may, he may not. That’s not what is foremost in my mind. The money is. I’d rather spend that money on other players. My guess is that we could get more talent on the field by spreading the money then dumping all into one position. But that’s just me.
If Peppers brings it every down then he’s pretty pathetic as a player and is wasting his talent. What happened to his “epiphany” earlier this season when he realized he wasn’t putitng his best on the field every time? He needs to bring it each and every down!
He needs to fire his agent and sign with Drew Rosenhouse or what’s his name that got T.O. $6Mil for signing with the Bills for 1 year.
The Panthers should offer him $100Mil over 10 years… or $120Mil over 12 years, and when 5 years have passed and he’s retired, they’re out between $50-60Mil… it’s enough for a player that takes plays off and doesn’t play like his life depended on every down like Beason does.
Don't forget the broken hand as a factor.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
+1
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 5, 2010 3:09 AM EST up reply actions
Peppers for hire...
Mario Williams 54 million…I will take two of those!
Better yet franchise Peppers and let Danny Snyder trade Carolina Orakpo for him (maybe Snyder would fall for it…I mean he already took a banged up Haynesworth and watched him sit out)…lol
BTW, Orakpo was my pick last year hoping we would have traded a 1st and 4th in a move up into the 1st round to get real defensive end! But they chose Brown….Once again, proving me, a dumb street kid, seems smarter than the entire Panther front office in staffing a team.lol
Orakpo is great, indeed..
But could we have afforded him with the Peppers situation?
Brown & Goodson combine for roughly 6 million over 4 years.. Orakpo is over 15 million for 5 years.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
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