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Armchair GM: Looking at Wide Receiver

There's no doubt that Wide Receiver is a problem area for the Panthers.  Their top two receivers are both old, and one is clearly on the decline.  In any honest evaluation of the roster, it's clear that Wide Receiver is one of the biggest, if not the biggest concern.

The Panthers haven't done a lot with their receivers in the John Fox era.  While offensive formations throughout the NFL have shown more three and four receiver sets as rules have changed, John Fox has doggedly stuck with his I-Formation and the Erhardt-Perkins smash-mouth running scheme.  When it's worked, it's worked well for him, and he's conservative enough to stick with a winning formula.

But making it work requires some specific skills.  You need a Tight End who can block and work the middle.  You need two receivers who can play physical and knock the cornerback out of the way when the back is running a sweep.  You need a split end who's strong enough to beat the jam at the line and either support the run or make plays across the middle, preferably paired with a speedster on the other side to stretch the field and keep the safeties honest.

In the Panthers' system, running backs are not used as receivers often, they run the ball and set up the defense for deep gains in the play-action passing game.  If the safeties start cheating up to support the run, the quarterback can hit the deep threat for a big gain.

Star-divide

Carolina has been fortunate to have had one of the best deep threats in the league on their roster for several years now in Steve Smith.  The Panthers also have Muhsin Muhammad, one of the best blocking receivers in NFL history.  In 2008, the two of them were almost prototypes for what you look for in starting receivers in the type of offense they run.

Unfortunately, that's no longer the case.  There isn't much behind them, and both starters are aging.  Moose clearly lost a step in 2009, and would not challenge for a starting role on most rosters.  Smith has some time left in him, but he's about all the Panthers have, they don't even have a viable slot receiver.  And they have no one who's been groomed to take over either starting position.

Ideally, Muhammad will assume the third receiver role in 2010, with a newcomer taking his place as the number two option.  That means they need another physical possession receiver who blocks well.  But they also need someone who they can develop behind Smith, and it's never a bad thing to have speed on the roster.

What they really need at Receiver are a couple of legitimate deep threats and a couple of good possession receivers.  But then, so does every team.

In the meantime, here's what they have to work with.

  • Steve Smith (30 y.o., 5'9", 185 lbs.) - Smitty may be 30, but he still has incredible quickness, speed and athleticism.  He's also about the biggest competitor on the roster, which has both its good points and bad.  He's good for at least one circus catch a game, and has the strength to take the ball away from defenders.  Unfortunately, he's so good at what he does it almost makes it seem like he's the only receiver with any talent at all on the roster at times.  And at 30, it's time to admit he won't be here forever.  The Panthers need to start looking for a replacement, and they need to start now.
  • Muhsin Muhammad (36 y.o., 6'2", 215 lbs.) - Moose will be back for another year, but he's no longer good enough to demand a starting role.  He still has the strength and physical nature to fight for position in the middle, and he can still block with the best of them, but he's slowed down to the point that a decent cornerback can all but erase him from the game.  His future with the Panthers is in the slot, if he has one.
  • Dwayne Jarrett (23 y.o., 6'4", 219 lbs.) - Jarrett was supposed to be the heir apparent to Muhammad, but it hasn't worked out.  He's got good size and decent speed.  He has great hands, and he can jump and catch just about anything thrown his direction.  But that only gets you part of the way; an NFL receiver needs to run good routes and get separation, and Jarrett has struggled with both.  He also needs to develop a mean streak and add a little intensity to his game.  He's young, and neither is out of the question.  But the Panthers may not wait, if he doesn't show that he gets it in Camp he probably won't be on the roster when the games count.
  • Kenneth Moore (24 y.o., 5'11", 195 lbs.) - The knock on local favorite Kenny Moore is that although he's athletic and versatile, he's almost too versatile.  That's a kind way of saying that he's good at a lot of things, but he isn't great at anything.  In a league that demands greatness, just being good enough won't win you a starting job.  Particularly when you don't have great size or speed.  Moore may land on the roster again, but if he does, once more it will be through the lack of a better choice rather than from his play forcing the coaching staff to sit up and take notice.
  • Charly Martin (25 y.o., 6'1", 212 lbs.) - Martin is similar to Moore in that neither is capable of starting, but each is just good enough to hold on to a roster spot.  Martin has great hands and will make a catch in traffic.  He's a physical player who will block in the running game, but he doesn't have good speed and can be taken out of the game by a decent Cornerback.  He needs to develop into a deep threat to hold on to his roster spot.
  • Dexter Jackson  (23 y.o, 5'9", 182 lbs.) - Jackson is an intriguing case to many fans in the Carolinas.  A local favorite from Appalacian State, he was drafted in the second round in 2008 by the Buccaneers.  In his first season, his play suggested a fear of getting hit, which is a huge sin in the NFL.  He isn't a physical receiver at all, and was a poor fit for the horizontal West-Coast offense ran by John Gruden.  When new coach Raheem Morris installed a vertical passing game, Dexter thought he might have a chance to break free of the bust label, but despite a good training camp he was released at the end of August.  There's no better player to put him next to than Steve Smith, and if any of the physical and fiery nature rubs off the Panthers are going to be in great shape as far as a deep threat is concerned.

    Jackson runs a 4.3 40, and is quick getting in and out of the break.  He's very athletic, with good body control and reliable hands.  He can also return kicks, although he still needs to adjust to the speed of the NFL game.  If he's in a system that allows him to get down-field and avoid the more physical confrontations at the line of scrimmage then he could be effective at this level.  He still needs to develop more upper body strength, and he may be a year or two away from becoming anything like an every-down player.  But if he does, and if the skills he showed in college surface on the pro level, he'll be a starter for sure.

There are a few Restricted Free Agents out there who could be possibilities for shoring up the Carolina Receiving Corps., as well as a couple of veterans who might be available if the Panthers decide to make a trade.  With that said, Hurney has never really been about improving the team through trading for veterans, nor is Fox interested in players who bring baggage.  So it's not likely that any of these players end up in Carolina next year.

  • Anquan Boldin (29 y.o., 6'1", 217 lbs.) - Boldin is on the radar because he's publically stated that he won't ever sign another contract with the Cardinals, and trade rumors have swirled around his name ever since.  He's incredibly quick, has great hands, works the middle well, and can block like Fox wants.  He's no stranger to hard work, but he's getting older and his physical nature has increasingly resulted in injury problems over the past few years.  What's more, since this is a trade situation Arizona will have some control, and will likely look at AFC teams like Miami or Baltimore as preferred landing spots.
  • Steve Breaston (26 y.o. 6'0", 189 lbs.) - Breaston is a Restricted Free Agent, and will probably be given a high tender.  That would put the Panthers in the position where they would need to give up at least their second round pick to grab him, so he may not be worth the cost unless they're in the mood to do some drastic things with their roster this offseason.  Breaston has great hands, is good at getting open, and he runs well after the catch.  His ability to make defenders miss also makes him valuable as a return man.  He's not known for blocking, nor is he physical in general.  That would make him a somewhat poor fit to replace Moose, but his skills as a receiver would make up for it.
  • Malcolm Floyd (28 y.o., 6'5", 225 lbs) - The San Diego Chargers will have their hands full retaining Vincent Jackson this offseason, and may be forced to place a lower than desired tender on Floyd as a result.  Floyd has great hands, is physical, blocks well, and gives the Quarterback a big target.  On the downside, he's not fast enough to consistently gain separation or run away from opposing cornerbacks, and he's never been a big play receiver.  But among the Free Agent receivers that the Panthers might be able to lure, he's probably the most like the one they're looking to replace.
  • Brandon Marshall (25 y.o., 6'4", 230 lbs.) - Marshall is really included here just to be complete.  He has elite skills, but he's a real pain in the locker room and acts like he always wants to be traded.  The Broncos are willing, for the right offer.  The only way this would happen is if another player was involved, as the Panthers don't have the first round pick that the Broncos will likely demand.  Still, if you can get by his personality, it's nice to think about Marshall lined up opposite Smitty.

And then there are the Unrestricted Free Agents.  This years crop has the usual assortment of damaged goods and old players, but there may be a player worth a contract in there.

  • Antonio Bryant (28 y.o., 6'1", 205 lbs.) - Bryant has a lot of natural talent, but he's never really been able to consistently bring it to the field.  One play he'll make a catch that ends up on Sportscenter, the next he'll disappear from sight, running sloppy routes at half speed.  He doesn't block well, and can be a disruption in the locker room.  But with that said, his speed and agility will convince someone to take a chance on him.
  • Nate Burleson (28 y.o., 6'0", 198 lbs.) - The Seattle WR has a history of injury problems, which have kept him from achieving his full potential.  He's talented enough, with good speed and quickness, and he has the athleticism necessary to make some acrobatic catches.  Burleson runs well in the open field, displays big-play ability, and he can return kicks.  But he doesn't run routes as well as a receiver with his experience should, and has displayed lapses in concentration in the past.  He might be look promising, but the last injury-prone wide receiver Seahawk the Panthers took a chance on was pretty disappointing, so don't look for this to happen.
  • Chris Chambers (31 y.o., 5'11", 210 lbs.) - After nine seasons, Chambers still has good hands and leaping ability, and still gets his catches in streaks.  He's never been consistent, but when he's on his game he's capable of making some outstanding catches.  He's much more comfortable on the sideline than the middle, and despite his age he still has good speed and big play ability.
  • Derrick Mason (36 y.o., 5'10", 192 lbs.) - Somehow you expect Mason to once again flip off Father Time and make the tough catches again in 2010.  He's always been an excellent underneath receiver, and has the type of quickness that doesn't seem to disappear with age.  He can't run away from defenders any more, but he uses his experience well to pick apart zones and find openings.  He's tough as nails, but if you seriously consider signing him you may as well start Moose again.
  • Terrell Owens (36 y.o., 6'3", 224 lbs.) - Owens may be 36, but he's still good enough to start for most NFL teams.  He's big, strong, quick, and fast.  He'll make tough catches, break tackles, and find a way to the end zone.  He'll also take complaints straight to the media, argue with the coaches, demand to be the first option, and disappear from games where he feels he isn't being used right.  The Panthers already tried Keyshawn, they don't need T.O.
  • Donté Stallworth  (29 y.o., 6'0", 200 lbs.) - Stallworth has outstanding speed, and is a deep threat on every play.  He's great on hitches and comeback routes, but can't work the middle of the field and disappears against good cornerbacks.  He also has some attitude issues, but they may be fixed after sitting out for a year due to manslaughter charges.
  • Kevin Walter (28 y.o., 6'3", 215 lbs) - Walter isn't special in any way, but he's steady, solid, and reliable.  He uses his size well, runs good routes, and has good hands.  But he can't get consistent separation on his own and is probably as good as he's going to get.  With that said, he still represents an improvement for the Panthers.  However, if he replaced Moose the Panthers would lose a lot of blocking.

In sum, if the Panthers want to improve at Wide Receiver they'll probably have to either give up a draft pick or use one.  And in fact, given their needs they may use more than one.  If they do, they'll probably take one receiver on the first day and another on the second.

As in any draft, there are projects galore available on day two.  If the Panthers get lucky maybe they can find the next Marques Colston in the seventh round.  But that's not something they can count on.  Instead, they need to spend a first day pick on someone who can help immediately, and players like that are in short supply.  At the receiver position especially, if you want anything close to guaranteed first year production you need to look at the high first round, and even then it's not certain.

So they'll have to hope that someone slips down the board, and it needs to be someone who will fit into what the Panthers need.  A player like Marty Gilyard can say all the right things and post good numbers at the combine, but he might not be as attractive an option as you might think because he plays in a spread offense and relies more on straight-line speed than physical play to be effective.  The Panthers won't turn their noses up at a smaller receiver, but the first one they take will probably be more like Moose than Smith in style, just to align better with their needs.

With all that in mind, here are a few possibilities that may be intriguing as first day picks.  Not all will be available, and a lot will change based on what they show at the combine, but if you're putting together your big board now, you want to keep track of them.

  • Brandon LaFell, LSU (6'3", 206 lbs.) - LaFell has a big, strong frame and plays a physical brand of football.  He's got great hands and runs well after the catch.  He's good in the clutch, and looks more like Moose than any other prospect.  But he hasn't always been consistent, and although he's strong and fast he doesn't have much of a burst and his routes are inconsistent.  He's not likely to slide to the middle of the second round, but he may be worth trading up for.
  • Arrelious Benn, Illinois (6'2", 220 lbs.) - Benn is a real "love him or hate him" prospect.  Some boards have him as a mid first rounder, some have him available in the third.  He's big, physical, fast, and runs well.  He's also a good contributor on special teams.  But he's got hands of stone, he needs to run better routes, and there are questions about his effort.  So he may be available, but he may also have bust written all over him.
  • Eric Decker, Minnesota (6'3", 215 lbs.) - Decker will probably be there for the taking in the third, unless he posts some excellent combine numbers.  He's coming off injury, and although his numbers were worth writing home about his speed wasn't.  Still, he's got a great physical style, he's a polished route runner, and best of all he's an outstanding blocker.  If he runs well at the combine, he might even climb into the middle of the second, right where the Panthers first pick is.
  • Dezmon Briscoe, Kansas (6'3", 200 lbs.) - The knock on Briscoe is that he played in an offense that tends to inflate stats, and he didn't have to run good routes in it.  That's his major weakness; along with a pedestrian 4.55 speed in the 40 (pedestrian for a WR, that is).  The attraction is his physical style, in the open field he runs more like a running back than a wide receiver, and with his size and strength there's a lot of upside.  He's probably a reach in the second, but may be a value in the third.
  • Mike Williams, Syracuse (6'2", 212 lbs.) - Williams is included here because he may be the most athletically gifted wide receiver in the draft.  Then again, he also may be the biggest head case.  He's big, plays physical, he's fast and explosive, he runs well, and he's got good hands.  He was all the offense that Syracuse had until he quit the team midway through the season.  He may be snapped up in the third, he may last until the second day.  But given the Panthers' experience with Mike Goodson, they may be in the mood to take a chance on him.  He's definately a high-risk, high-reward player.

So those are some names, and of course, they're just possibilities.  Every armchair GM out there has their own pet receiver prospect, and their own ideas of who may be available and who may not.  I'm sure a lot of them will come up in the comments.

Fixing the Wide Receiver position is probably going to take more than one season.  But they need to start sometime, and given the state of the roster, it's better to start sooner than later.

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Our receiver position is really an enigma.

There are so many ways to go about fixing it. Take a speedster in the second, then a possession in the third (Gilyard, Decker). Leave Jarret as a possession and trade up for a speedster (Tate). Sign Kevin Walter and draft a receiver/returnman (gilyard) The possibilities are truly endless, and there’s no clear cut right way to go about it. Personally, I would be ecstatic with either Walter, Tate, Gilyard, Lafell, or Decker. I like Jarret and think he’s finally turned the corner. I saw him getting open deep this season, he had several deep balls thrown his way, and he has great hands.

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by Flowing Willow on Feb 17, 2010 2:44 AM EST reply actions  

I'm more excited by Jackson than Jarrett

Jarrett hasn’t shown me anything so far but potential. And he’s had three seasons. Once again I expect him to look great in camp, and disappear during the season. That’s why I think he needs to ratchet up his intensity. Fortunately, that’s something that’s easier to fix than bad hands or slow speed, but will he do it?

Jackson, on the other hand, is the same size as Smitty and has the same basic tools, but he really needs a shot of confidence and the chip on his shoulder. Tampa Bay took him too early, thinking they had another Devin Hester on their hands. He was a terrible fit for the WCO, but may make it in a more vertical game like the one we have. One thing’s for sure, he has the tools to make Moore and Martin look like afterthoughts.

My ideal scenario would be to somehow get LaFell and Williams in the draft. It would take some major luck, but one of them will hit it big in the pros. Send Jarrett and Jackson to sports shrinks and hope one of them gets his mental issues fixed. Those four would give us good depth for years to come, if only they reached their potential.

I hate that word…

by Cyberjag on Feb 17, 2010 7:35 AM EST reply actions  

I disagree

I’d take Jarrett over a receiver who is afraid of contact anyday (I’m hoping Jarrett takes the #2 spot on the team this year). I mean really, I didn’t know guys could even make it to the NFL when they are afraid of being hit (Other than QB’s of course).

My Ideal Situation:
   1) Smitty
   2) Jarrett
   3) Gilyard/Tate

by SouthernPanther on Feb 17, 2010 8:21 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd like that too.

I still want Jacoby Ford though.

One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.

by chinchillas sword on Feb 17, 2010 9:05 AM EST up reply actions  

He proved that was wrong last camp

Jackson got a lot more physical last year, but in his focus on that part of his game he lost his good hands. That and the coaching change is why he got cut in camp. Had Gruden stayed on he would have given Jackson another shot. Don’t count him out, I think he deserves at least the chance that Jarrett’s had. Give him a solid camp in our system and give him a chance on gameday. Like I said, if his skills surface on this level we’ve got something special.

And Jarrett’s had three seasons now. I like the guy, but enough is enough. He’s not as physical as he needs to be, and although he’s gotten stronger he doesn’t play like it. Watch some youtube clips of Moose and how he handles corners on running plays, then look at Jarrett—I swear it seems like the guy’s out there looking for a slap-fight. He needs to learn how to knock the cornerback on his ass when they try and jam him. He has the size, where’s the attitude?

by Cyberjag on Feb 17, 2010 9:05 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm all for chances

Also as far as Jarrett and blocking, from what I’ve heard Jarrett is actually a pretty solid blocker. Asking him to be a Moose at blocking is a bit premature b/c Moose is possibly the best blocking WR in the league (With Hines Ward, and even Smitty gets his shots in there). I think the blocking aspect is something Jarrett could certainly learn. Let’s not forget how young Jarrett is. He came into the league at age 20, where most guys come in around 22-23. He just needs to mature, and I think he has over the past season.

Now having said that, I certainly say give Dexter a chance, let him get out there and prove that he can be physical in a John Fox style pass game (meaning he has got to be able to block at least adequately). Especially let him jostle for a spot at returning kicks because we were god-awful at that last year. This is also a place where taking someone like Gilyard would be a great move. Special Teams play killed us in games last year and often gave out offense horrible field position. It’s a place that needs improvement dramatically!!!

BTW’s, I’m not trying to rip on you Cyberjag, this is a great post!! Just trying to let my opinion be heard :). Keep writing the great articles man. I love CSR!! So happy I joined!

by SouthernPanther on Feb 17, 2010 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Don’t worry, rip away if I deserve it. :)

I don’t see the blocking talent you do in Jarrett, but that’s probably because I’ve gotten tired of his promise. I never did well at dating teases either. So when he’s out there and I’m watching him, I’m more likely to see the half-hearted attempt to put his hands on a defensive back than the strong engage and push you get from Moose on a routine basis.

And while I think about it honestly, I do remember a couple of times where Jarrett blocked well. I don’t think it’s something he does consistently well though. The guy needs to get angry and play angry, and THEN he’ll prove his worth.

Both Jackson and Jarrett need time in the weight room, and attitude adjustments. I think that Jackson is already there, he needs a chance now. Jarrett, sheesh…

Best scenario for me would be getting LaFell somehow in the draft (He’s the second coming of Moose), and Williams on day two. I think LaFell would be the day one starter opposite Smitty, with Moose in the slot. Let Jackson and Jarrett fight it out for a jersey on gameday.

I wonder if Davidson would be allowed to run more four and five wide receiver sets if we had the personnel to do it. We certainly have the line… :)

by Cyberjag on Feb 17, 2010 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

More WRs

I’d love to see us spread it out ever now and then. The most receivers I’ve ever seen on the field for us is 3, and even that is a rarity. With how talented our line is, and now that we have Moore under center (someone with some mobility) as opposed to Jake, I think we should definitely spread it out a few more times a game. I’d love to see us run 4 WRs with Deangelo on the field, leave him 1:1 with a linebacker, a dump pass could turn into 20 yards. We have to get more creative…

by SouthernPanther on Feb 17, 2010 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Clarify

4 WR’s and Deangelo lined up at RB next to Moore in the shotgun.

by SouthernPanther on Feb 17, 2010 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I watched D-Jax at App State for 4 years

We called him “The Blur” and for good reason. His combine speed was actually under 4.3 and just a hair slower than the years fastest time which was Chris Johnson at 4.2, making him the 2nd fastest overall.

He is your prototypical deep threat WR, and like Smitty, was drafted with the intention of returning kicks with a long term plan of becoming a starting WR.

The problem was that the Buccs under Gruden demanded immediate results, and threw him right into the fire without letting him adjust to the speed of the game. Being a I-A caliber player who dominated less gifted DBs and special teams units in I-AA made the gap and learning curve necessary in the NFL even larger. Even the best I-A prospect rarely make impacts in their first year. With the change in coaching, he was given the axe way before his time. Honestly, can you really ever justify cutting a 2nd year WR who you used a 2nd round pick on before he even plays his 2nd season?

D-Jax aka “The Blur” will receive the chance he did not get in TB to become great. I believe he will learn from the best (smitty and moose) and will bring glory to the black and blue!

by Tater596 on Feb 17, 2010 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

+1

I’m really high on his potential. He had a HARD time adjusting to the physical nature of the NFL, and putting him in a WCO, where receivers routinely take hits from Linebackers, was a little much to ask.

I think that his cut was as much as statement by Morris as anything else. And if we let him develop he’ll be a real catch. :)

by Cyberjag on Feb 17, 2010 11:05 AM EST up reply actions  

now let's just draft Armanti Edwards...

And we can run the wildcat with a combo that already has 3 years experience together! :)

by Tater596 on Feb 17, 2010 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

+1

I had the pleasure of watching him too, although I wasn’t a Mountaineer at the time. The kid has tons of potential, hopefully he realizes it with us.

by bravesfan91 on Feb 17, 2010 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

"We certainly have the line"

Do we?

The OL we have was built to run block. We surrendered the number of sacks we did because the guys we have are expert at moving the line of scrimmage, opening holes for the RBs, and pulling for counter plays — neither of our starting OTs (Gross or Otah) is that adept at pass blocking (take a look at the sacks each allowed)

Four or five wide receiver sets will only work if the QB is given 4-5 seconds of time to scan the field for the open guy, and for the longer patterns to develop.

We’ve got a lot of talent on the OL, but it’s not that kind of talent, IMO.

by bigdavis on Feb 17, 2010 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

sacks

Well what I witnessed was a line that in part was made look bad by Delhomme’s unwillingness to step up in the pocket when pressure on the ends got past the tackles. Delhomme had a tendancy to go backwards as pressure comes at him which is why we saw so many 10 yard sacks with Jake. With Moore though, our line was less talented (especially pass blocking wise, we didn’t miss a beat on run blocking) which is what I attribute a lot of the sacks on moore too. But thats it is just what I saw…

by SouthernPanther on Feb 17, 2010 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

One of the great things about Delhomme is that he will hang in the pocket.

It did lead to a lot of fumbles because of the crowd, but you can’t say he was antsy and didn’t have guts. He tends to go backwards, but that’s because he likes to keep the rush in front of him. Stepping up opens you to a blindside sack, or a paw sweeping in to the ball from behind.

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by Flowing Willow on Feb 18, 2010 4:56 AM EST up reply actions  

I would love to get LaFell

He’s one of the few in this class who truly profile as a #1 past the first round. And he plays MEAN! He’s like Q Boldin, and would be an excellent addition to our passing attack.

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by Flowing Willow on Feb 18, 2010 4:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed,

Jarret seems like the perfect split end for our offense, and during the latter half of the year, he was getting separation. He had a nice couple of deep balls vs New York, New England, and New Orleans. He’s the type of guy you can throw it up to on a post pattern and he’ll come down with it.

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by Flowing Willow on Feb 17, 2010 9:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Return man idea

I’ve heard the chargers are shopping the Cro’ for a RB think Sutton/Goodson and a pick for him would be worth it? On WR what I want the Panthers to do is get maybe Golden Tate or Lafell and then maybe later Shipley or Ford. Then there is the option of waiting till next year to snag one. There’s the Big 3 Floyd, Green and Jones then there are guys who’d be 1st round picks any other year Baldwin, Brown and Posey.:)

One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.

by chinchillas sword on Feb 17, 2010 8:13 AM EST reply actions  

Ok they want an in between the tackles runner

So think Sutton and a pick?

One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.

by chinchillas sword on Feb 17, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d give Sutton & Gamble… Sadly, it’d never happen.

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Feb 18, 2010 12:35 AM EST up reply actions  

If the Panthers leave free agency with Aaron Kampman and Malcolm Floyd, then I’d be a very happy Panthers fan.

by bravesfan91 on Feb 17, 2010 9:02 AM EST reply actions  

Great post Cyberjag

I like the idea of Donte Stallworth to Carolina.

I’ll be the first to chide professional athletes for behaving like children, but Stallworth’s situation was slighty different. He made a really, really stupid decision but did everything he could to attone for it before the court case even started.

I think he could definitely compliment our team and the price wouldn’t be ridiculous due to the baggage. Is he a long term option? No… but he is an established veteran who can bridge the gap while we draft and improve the WR corps from the inside.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James Dator on Feb 17, 2010 9:59 AM EST reply actions  

I think you could use Stallworth as the #2, honestly.

I know much of his career has been as a slot receiver, but I think you could play with the offense so Stallworth is your deep threat and rely on Smitty for his short slants, curls and screen. Smith’s YAC ability is valuable enough that the defense needs to be kept honest with it on every down.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James Dator on Feb 17, 2010 10:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Over the middle

If I’m not mistaken, Smith actually proposed the idea of being used over the middle more and let him do the work rather than the QB. How many times have we seen Smitty catch a 5 yard dump over the middle and take it for 6 or atleast take it 25 yards downfield. He is terrifying in the open field. I totally agree with you here. I think Smith is starting to get fed up with nothing but Go-routes and Posts…

by SouthernPanther on Feb 17, 2010 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Good point

In that scenario, Stallworth would be a good fit.

by Cyberjag on Feb 17, 2010 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Go-routes and posts

Since Jake couldn’t throw that far, those were useless routes for the first half of the season.

Now that Matt Moore is in place, those routes aren’t useless any more.

by panthersnbraves on Feb 17, 2010 10:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Jake's arm was plenty strong in '08

He lost his touch on long passes in ‘09, and Moose lost his ability to stretch the field at the same time. But we still didn’t run them much, they’re just not part of our game plan under Fox.

by Cyberjag on Feb 17, 2010 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Count the Daunte Stallworth idea out of the equation.

One year deal to the Baltimore Ravens. He’s out.

"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn

by Revshawn on Feb 17, 2010 7:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll go cry in the corner.

I wanted him.

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Feb 18, 2010 12:37 AM EST up reply actions  

I didn't want him at first.

I thought he’d demand a larger contract. But for a 1 year deal for less then 1 mill? Holy crap! See you later Jarrett!

"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn

by Revshawn on Feb 20, 2010 3:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Plus...

…if Stallworth comes in and causes problems…cut his ass before the season starts and be done with it. It seems like a win-win situation to me. Stallworth gets a fresh chance, and Carolina gets s much needed deep-threat and some insurance at the WR position.

by SouthernPanther on Feb 17, 2010 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

You can Scratch Stallworth off the List

He just signed with the Ravens for a one-year deal worth 900k plus 300k playing time incentives. Dang!!

by panthertillidrop on Feb 17, 2010 12:03 PM EST reply actions  

wow.

We dropped the ball on this one. That is super cheap… AND gets the ravens off the hook in case of a lockout.

by Tater596 on Feb 17, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Ravens just got a steal for Stallworth. I feel that too often the Panthers stand pat in free agency and don’t strike out enough.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James Dator on Feb 17, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

We live and die by conservative around here, not just in our playcalling. I agree that it hurts us sometimes. This would have been a great hire.

by Tater596 on Feb 17, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree.

We’re just going to have to come to terms that we probably won’t be doing any big hiring this year with the new agreement up in the air. Hurney wants to set up a good example, and it’s killing us in the meantime.

"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn

by Revshawn on Feb 17, 2010 7:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Well

at least that leaves us an opportunity to nab a good WR in the draft if one falls to the second round cos we know the Raven needed a WR badly even more than we did, but would have hoped the Panthers picked him up.

by panthertillidrop on Feb 17, 2010 12:29 PM EST reply actions  

The reciever “problem” will be fixed when the Panthers have a RELIABLE QB who can game manage and SPREAD THE BALL AROUND WITHOUT TURNOVERS. End of discussion.

"It's a bad day to have a bad day" - Coach John Fox of the Carolina Panthers

by D.W.G. on Feb 17, 2010 1:00 PM EST reply actions  

Like Vinny T? Or David Carr?

You can try and pin 100% of the offense’s problems on Jake, but that doesn’t make it true. Go look at how well our receivers played in the last three games versus the previous 13. Their numbers were right in line with what they were doing under Jake. The difference was that Moore threw to the backs a little more, and that comes from the bench.

So either Moore isn’t an answer, or your premise is wrong. I don’t think that putting a better QB under center will suddenly make Kenny Moore faster, or Moose younger, or Jarrett smarter. Just look at our roster. We have two old guys, two kids, and two journeymen. Do you really think that anyone but Smith would start for any other team in the league?

Really, the guy’s probably done and we have a new starter in Moore. Leave the Jake Hate for other arguments, we’re here to talk football and the future. :)

by Cyberjag on Feb 17, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

"The difference was that Moore threw to the backs a little more,"

Sorry, but that’s categorically untrue.

Here are the figures that show Moore did just the opposite — he threw to the WR’s more than Jake did:

In the final 5 games, in which Moore was the starter, he was 79/126 — of those, 46 completions were to WRs and 18 to TEs, a total of 64 to non-RBs (3 more were to the FB and the other 12 were completed to RBs) — that equals 81% of his completions were to WRs and TEs, and only 19% to RBs.

In the first 11 games, a few passes were thrown by McCown and Moore in relief, but 96% of the passing was done by Jake. (I’m going to use the totals of all those 3 passers for those 11 games, but keep in mind it’s almost all Jake.) In those 11 games, WRs caught 96 balls, TEs caught 45, the FB only 1, and RBs caught 43, a total of 185 catches. The ratios were the opposite of how you assumed they compared to Moore in the last 5 games. To be exact, WRs’ and TEs’ receptions constituted 141 of the 185 total, or 76% — the other 24% went to the Backs, in the first 11 games.

This belies the theory that Jake was a downfield gunslinger, and Moore is dumping off to his backs. Au contraire.

Moore IS the answer.

http://www.panthers.com/team/statistics.html

by bigdavis on Feb 17, 2010 10:31 PM EST up reply actions  

even so

dumping to the backs isn’t a bad thing, its better than an interception or incompletion…sometimes you gotta just take what the defense gives you, something Jake couldn’t get past his head.

by SouthernPanther on Feb 17, 2010 10:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Moore is just the better player.

When the NFL ranks Matt Moore as the best QB coming into free agency, that’s a huge vote of confidence for him. The biggest difference between Jake and Matt Moore is that Jake just plain lost the ability to throw. He’s had a tendency to overthrow receivers in the 10-20 yard range for a while now, but it got completely out of hand this year.

As far as the WR argument is concerned, I think it’s a combination of factors rather than one premise alone. The QB and the WRs make each other, along with contributions along the offensive line. Take Minnesota for instance. Bernard Berrian was regarded as the only decent receiver out there, and Sidney Rice was being thrown under the bus. Insert Brett Favre, Career highs for Sidney Rice, Visanthe Shiancoe, and Adrian Peterson in the passing game.

Then you can go to Denver with Kyle Orton, and you see the complete antithesis of the previous scenario. Kyle goes from a questionable offense to an offense with a bunch of playmakers, and he suddenly becomes decent. Career highs all the way down the line in completions, passer rating, and touchdowns.

In theory at least, a great offense will make a mediocre QB look great. A great QB will make an average offense look great. It takes a great QB and a great offense to make an excellent offensive attack though, and that’s what wins Super Bowls in the end.

Luckily, that’s what we got coming into 2010.

"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn

by Revshawn on Feb 17, 2010 11:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Moore did go to his checkdown more often

Which is something I think people wish Jake did. However, Jake’s gunslinging mentality did a lot of good things for us over the years, and it’s a necessary quality when you’re down by six in the fourth quarter.

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by Flowing Willow on Feb 18, 2010 5:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Nice to see another stat geek

I use this site (not that it should matter, but team sites inflate stats a lot). http://hosted.stats.com/fb/teamstats.asp?teamno=29&type=rosters

I made a careless assumption about the backs after looking at Moore’s and Delhomme’s WR stats side by side. Jake completed 56% of his passes, Moore 62%. Jake completed 96 passes to receivers, Moore 46. So I extrapolated that Jake attempted 181 passes to receivers, Moore 85. Out of their totals, that means that Moore threw to WRs 54% of the time, Jake 53%. That’s not a significant number. Then I made a careless statement about where Moore’s extra completions came from, and I’m kind of glad you busted me—it will keep me on my toes in the future.

Still, it’s not like Moore made our receivers better. He executed better than Jake, you can look at the record to tell that. But under Moore, no one’s numbers went up dramatically, no one improved their 40 time, no one got better separation, no one ran better routes. I could go on.

We’ve got one quality starting receiver on the roster, and he’s 30. You can put Peyton-Unitas-Montana back there and it won’t change that.

by Cyberjag on Feb 18, 2010 8:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for the great site!

Seems to me the essence of the discussion you and I are having here is whether Moore dumps off to his RBs more than Jake did, and you and Flowing Willow apparently still think he does — I don’t.

I don’t see where you get the targeted numbers you mention. Let me know how/where those derive, okay? (“I extrapolated that Jake attempted 181 passes to receivers, Moore 85.”)

To me, the meaningful ratio is <#completions to WRs & TEs>
                                                          ____________________

…not divided by attempts.

That ratio would be 141/185, or 76% for Jake, and 64/79, or 81% for Moore. The converse is Jake had 44/185, or 24% to his backs, while Moore had 15/79, or 19% to the backs he completed passes to.

Jake did more dumping off to the backs then did Moore — or looking at it from another angle, Moore went downfield more often than did Jake — I doubt many people would have thought that, but that’s what happened.

To me, that indicates Moore surveys his options better, sees the field better, makes his reads better, doesn’t have to dump off as often — all of which leads to moving the chains better.

As you say, he may not make the receivers better, or run faster, but he gets them the ball in better position to make the play.

by bigdavis on Feb 18, 2010 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

(left out denominator of my ratio)

should have read (%by)

 Total number of completions

by bigdavis on Feb 18, 2010 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

He did help get Jarrett his first touchdown...

I mean, come on, he at least has to get some credit for that one as far as “making receivers better” goes ;)

In fact, I can’t let my comment end itself there. Concerning Jarrett and Moore specifically…(for what it may or may not mean)

Jarrett played 7 games with Delhomme under center. In one of those games he was shut out, that being his final under Delhomme (vs. MIA). In the others, he totaled 85 yards, an average of 12.1yds/game (including his shut out). He had 0 TD’s, gave up 0 INT’s on balls intended for him, and had 1 dropped pass. He had a total of 26 YAC, an average of 3.7YAC/game. All of this was accomplished off of 18 targets, which he caught 10, an average of 2.5 targets/game.

With Moore under center, Jarrett played in 3 games. He was shut out in one as well, his second of the three (vs. NE). He totaled 111 yards, an average of 37yds/game (once again, including the shut out). He had 1 TD, gave up 0 INT’s, and had 0 dropped passes. He had a total of 21 YAC, an average of 7YAC/game. This was accomplished off of 11 targets, 7 which were caught, an average of 3.6 targets/game.

He also recorded his longest reception of the season under Moore, in the first game. Then he did it again in his third.

Nothing impressive but a difference worth noting nonetheless. If I remember correctly, Delhomme was the one under center when Moose was injured, right? That could have provided targets that wouldn’t have normally been there. To be fair, as we all know, Smith was out in week 17, when Jarrett went 5/5 for 68yds and 1TD.

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Feb 18, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Plus

Let’s point out that the game Jarrett shined in was a game in which we didn’t have steve smith on the other side to draw coverage. So that makes it even more impressive in my opinion.

by SouthernPanther on Feb 18, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I completely agree with that statement :)

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Feb 18, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

From what I saw watching Moore

He went to his checkdown receiver more often. Not necessarily a back, a lot of time it was a TE or a WR. But he did seem hesitant to make a deep throw unless that was the playcall. Now maybe the receivers weren’t open deep, but from everything I’ve seen about Moore I know enough to say that the stats don’t bear out that he is a safe QB. And I would say rather than Moore going deep more often than Jake is indicated by the numbers, I would say that’s somewhat misguided by the fact that Moore actually completed his downfield passes. So it’s not Moore goes deep more than Jake, it’s that Moore can actually complete a deep ball. Which was our problem all along this season.

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by Flowing Willow on Feb 19, 2010 2:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Oops,

Receiver in the first sentence should be the only bolded part.

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by Flowing Willow on Feb 19, 2010 2:03 AM EST up reply actions  

"checkdown" doesn't equate to "dumpoff" to a RB

I was showing that, if his primary isn’t open, he’ll not just settle for a toss to a RB (which was the original statement that started me on this discussion), but will more often than Jake, find a #2 target.

Wouldn’t you all agree the stats I provided demonstrate that to be true?

by bigdavis on Feb 19, 2010 8:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah basically.

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by Flowing Willow on Feb 20, 2010 2:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Time to draft offense for Hurney and Fox

Okay enough with the drafting of DL players and LB’s in the top 3 rounds of the NFL draft: I still believe our first pick is going to be a WR or QB. More than likely we will take a QB in the 2nd round and allow a WR to fall to us in the 3rd. I seriously doubt the K. Moore returns for another season and D. Jackson will see the field for us in 2010. I love Moore being a WFU fan but the guy is nothing special at the NFL level and is a 4-5th WR on any teams depth chart at best. UFA class at reciever is not good enough to impress me and make me overpay for any of them. RFA are going to be given such high tenders that none of them seem to be worth it either.

I believe that we will fill our DE needs on the free agent market by signing hopefully A. Kampman to replace Peppers and if we need a lower end type reciever we could go at F. Washington formerly of the Ravens to fill that need but I doubt we need him still he has some size and decent hands.

Due to the CBA agreement Hurney will have a hard time trading away future first rounders in this season draft. Look for almost no trade involving picks to occur this off-season b/c nobody knows if their is going to be football in 2011 or not.

My draft 2010:

2nd rounder: J. Snead QB – Ole Miss; is got a cannon for an arm but needs time to develop his accuracy which was an issue for him this past college season. He has the size, some decent to average speed similar to M. Moore and really could be a QB of the future. O

Other opts: Colt McCoy – Texas, Tony Pike Cincy

3rd Rounder: D . Alexander; seems like a fit in the 3rd round for us and at 6-5 he is a big target. However his stock could rise with the combine and he could be off the board by our pick here in the 3rd round.

other opitions: M. Gilyard Cincy; & or E. Decker WR- Miss.

4th Rounder: Lamarr Houston DT-Texas; Houston was very undersize as a jr at Texas but put on twenty or so more pounds and still kept his speed for the Longhorns. He is a ideal DT for the Tampa – 2 or Meeks scheme; He has alot of speed for a DT and just needs to work on tackling in the run game. Still in the 4th round we get great value here.

Other opts: Mike Neal Purdue, Boo Robinson WFU

5th Rounder : n/a trade to the Chiefs for T. Tyler

6th Rounder: (A); gone traded to the Browns for Louis Leonard
                         (B from Oakland); S. Render OG – VT; I know some draft boards have Render going as high as 4th round but I seriously doubt that and highly ranked O-Line prospects always fall into the lower rounds. Either way if it is not Render then we will grab a OLineman here.

Other opts: Chris DeGeare WFU; Chris Marinelli Stanford

7th Rounder: M. Johnson ILB- Kentucky; very underrated player at Kentucky and really could be a UDFA after the draft. With so many good LB’s in this years draft some may fall out of the draft completely. Either way we finish with a typical John Fox pick a LB.

other opts: J. Kirlew DE- Indiana, (more than likely off the board in the 6th round plus we still have H. Taylor so the need may not be their to add another DE.
K. Bosworth UCLA, (underrated guy at UCLA)
Sam Maxwell Kentucky (will definately be in this round)

GO Panthers;

by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Feb 17, 2010 3:31 PM EST reply actions  

Sorry

Alexander- Missouri & Decker from Minn should have caught that sorry guys.

by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Feb 17, 2010 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

lamarr houston will not last into the 4th round

i also have serious issues with Snead as our first overall pick… we can get a project QB like Zac Robinson or John Skelton in later rounds and focus on a WR with the first pick

by vitzeng on Feb 17, 2010 8:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Under Fox and Hurney, they’ve taken 14 offensive players and 15 defensive players in the first three rounds. If you just look at the first round (the money picks), they’ve taken 4 on offense, 4 on defense.

by Cyberjag on Feb 18, 2010 8:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Breaston is the only one that excites me

With our lack of creativity we need a guy like him who can get open on his own, and get yards after the catch. Plus we don’t need him to block…. Smitty’s good at that, and we can lock up Moose for a couple more years as a #3.

And forget draft picks. We need to fill some starting positions, and we will not be in position to draft anybody with that potential. Trade em for FAs, and use what’s left on the best potential talent you can find regardless of the position.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Feb 17, 2010 8:13 PM EST reply actions  

i'm feeling a demaryius thomas high

he’s got great hands and is a powerful blocker, the only issue he has is route running and breaking away (sound like anyone we know? hahaha)

maybe we can trade our 2nd round pick and another one for 2 picks around the 3rd round so we can also pick up lamarr houston and then jordan shipley (who I am just as crazy about)

by vitzeng on Feb 17, 2010 8:50 PM EST reply actions  

update: apparently Thomas broke his foot

not being able to prove his already questionable route running skills, it appears that his stock will drop enough for us to take him in the 4th round

by vitzeng on Feb 17, 2010 9:04 PM EST up reply actions  

that would be a huge steal

please say that happens so we get him. imagine getting thomas and Ford. being an acc guy that would make me so happy

by pantherpride on Feb 17, 2010 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Dmearyius Thomas would be nice in the fourth

Despite the gimmicky offense he runs, he had PHENOMENAL stats this year, and he does get open deep, contrary to what people say. He has nice hands, and just needs to develop a route tree instead of the bush he ran at GT.

In free agency, I like Kevin Walter, Nate Burleson, Courtney Roby, Jason Avant, and Malcolm Floyd for us. Floyd would be well worth a third should they tender him with that. Avant would be like Ricky Proehl, Burleson would be a speedy slot option, Roby would be good on ST and returns, and Walter would be a perfect fit to replace Moose.

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by Flowing Willow on Feb 18, 2010 5:04 AM EST up reply actions  

If we're talking total package

then Floyd would be the “perfect fit” to replace Moose. Walter leaves a lot to be desired in the blocking game, but either would be a very good fit with us.

by bravesfan91 on Feb 18, 2010 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I've actually heard Walter is a very good blocker.

He does grade out very negatively on PFF though. Then again, so does Smith.

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by Flowing Willow on Feb 19, 2010 2:04 AM EST up reply actions  

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