Free Agent Market
by SouthernPanther on Feb 16, 2010 4:18 PM EST
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With Julius Peppers likely on the way out, the Carolina Panthers are losing one of the most talented players to ever wear a Panther's uniform. Losing him will no doubt be a blow to our defense and anyone who says that losing Pepper's won't affect our D is a fool. Losing someone who is that big of a game changer, even if he takes plays off, is an incredible loss. So, the question is, who would you like to see us go after in Free Agency.
I'm not talking necessarily about how we will replace Peppers or add depth on the D-Line, I'm talking about any position that could add talent to this team. I'm seeing a FA class that is quite weak at DE, so I'm thinking, maybe our D-Line takes a bit of a step back, but what if we surround the rest of the team with more talent. Where do you think we should look?
I'd like to explore two defensive players I would love to see the Panthers pursue:
1) Vince Wilfork:
Vince is a massive load to say the least. At 6'2", 325 lbs, he is a force in the middle that is an incredible run stopper. He has anchored the NT position for the NE Patriots for a long time and has been absolutely spectacular, making a name for himself as one of the best NTs in the league. He is 28 years old, and an UFA. The dilemma is that there is speculation that the Patriots will use their Franchise Tag on him to keep him there, despite his statements that he strongly desires not to be tagged. If he hits the open market, he would demand a pretty large contract (but it would look miniscule compared to what Peppers wants). I'd love to see this big man plugging up the middle of our run defense for a long time to come.
Dansby is known to be a great playmaking ILB for the Arizona Cardinals. He is excellent in pass coverage and as great size for a linebacker (6'4" 250 lbs.). He plays the ILB position in a 3-4 defense as of now, which is what causes some bit of a dilemma here because Carolina runs a 4-3. However, hear me out. Jon Beason (We all love him at MLB) played OLB in college at Miami. In fact, the Panthers had originally drafted him to play WLB (Weak-side Linebacker) before Dan Morgan went down, again..., like every year. Beason stepped in at MLB and has shined there ever since. Dansby's ILB position is much more like MLB than OLB, and I think someone with his athleticism and talent could make the switch pretty easily. Our LB Corps would consist of: Jon Beason (SLB), Karlos Dansby (MLB), Thomas Davis (WLB). Davis has flourished at WLB which is why I would hesitate moving him and playing Beason at his natural WLB. Our linebacking corps would easily be tops in the league, and it would help our pass coverage even more which will be hurt by the loss of Pepper's pass rushing skills. Let's face it, Diggs is solid, but he has certainly gotten slower and it's been noticeable on the field.
These are just two of the guys that I have on my wishlist. They are both a stretch and I by no means expect either of them to be with us next season, but I can always hope, can't I....
Having said that, let me know who you guys have been eyeing out there...
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I voted someone else...
I want the Panthers to pursue Aaron Kampman. He plays OLB and DE very well, and I believe is a free agent.
Why worry about moving Beason around when you can get a guy (Kampman) who can play either OLB in a 3-4 or DE in a 4-3. (And I’m saying this because there is the (slight) possibility that JR hires Bill Cowher after next season and he brings the 3-4 defense with him. If that happens it wouldn’t hurt to be prepared with some personnel who can adjust and has experience in both systems.)
kampman was always a 4-3 DE and struggled at OLB in the 3-4 and is 30 so I don’t see him adjusting to a new position. It was worth experimenting but i definitely want the panthers to sign him at DE. I’m pretty much banking on it and probably just setting myself up to be disappointed :|
What's wrong with being 30?
As a future member of the 20-ten club in July I resent that remark. (j/k – LOL)
I see your point though. I thought he started out in college as OLB and switched to DE. But, I could be wrong. Either way, he would be worth looking into as a Peppers replacement IMO.
He played LB in HS and his first two years of college.
But he’s been a DE ever since except for last year, which was a disaster.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 2:16 AM EST up reply actions
No need for Dansby
Our SLB position is not on the field for obvious passing downs. Our nickel back is on the field for over 50% of the defensive snaps. Team management wouldn’t waste the money on a position that only participates in half the defensive snaps. Diggs, Connor or Anderson are all that we need for now. If Peppers leaves is DE becomes more of a priority that SLB. Also, don’t rule out the possible franchising of Peppers. All the crap being thrown around right now are rumors being made up by aspiring writers trying to get their names out. NO DECISIONS WILL BE MADE UNTIL AFTER THE CBA FOR 2010 IS DECIDED ON. I’m amused how rumors by these writers are converted into facts the more they are talked about.
I see what you're saying..
But you failed to acknowledge that franchising Peppers is just as equivalent a rumor as letting him walk. Both scenarios have an equal opportunity of happening at the moment as far as we, the fans, know, yet you clearly favor the idea that everyone is wrong for speculating that Peppers will walk. No one has stated it as a fact, yet :).
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
Did you even read my post before commenting??
Seriously, read the post before commenting. “Also, don’t rule out the possible franchising of Peppers.” The use of the word “possible” in this context suggests an option that can be used. I didn’t fail to acknowledge that they might not franchise him…that’s why the phrase “possible franchising of Peppers” was used.
And to make it worse…did you miss the all capital letters sentence “NO DECISIONS WILL BE MADE UNTIL AFTER THE CBA FOR 2010 IS DECIDED ON”? What do you think that sentence means?? I’m not favoring anything…what are you even talking about?? Next time read the post correctly before commenting.
Truth about the need.
What would be the sense of moving Thomas Davis again after he’s finally found a home on the weak side? And no, Peppers won’t get franchised. It’s simply not worth the risk that he takes $20 mil and forces us to keep him.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 2:18 AM EST up reply actions
Don't rule out a trade??
If Peppers wants to play for a top eight team, he must be traded to that team. Those final eight playoff teams cannot sign him as the CBA stands right now. The Panthers could franchise him and deal him the same day for a 2nd round pick for all we know. Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe that they can franchise him before the deadline and then have until July to drop the tag if they so choose. I’m not certain if that holds true if he signs the franchise offer. If they let him walk without compensation they’ll most likely receive a third round compensation pick in 2011 from the league. Panthers front office will work out their best perceived scenario.
They can't trade him the same day if he doesn't sign the tender.
And there’s no reason to think he would.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
You'd think his agent would have learned since last time
I think that IF we tag him, we go to Carey and Peppers and say, “Julius, we love what you’ve done here for us, you’ve had a long run, and we’d like it to continue. If you would be willing to work on a long term extension beneficial for both sides, please sign the tender and move on. However, if you feel it is in your best interest to be traded, we will try and accomodate your wishes. Please sign the tender, as that will speed up the process and make it more efficient. I hope you learned from last year.”
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 19, 2010 1:11 AM EST up reply actions
You'd think.
But he’s bungled nearly every other step of the process for years.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 19, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Well we'll just have to see
the optimist in me says we’ll get it done. :)
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 20, 2010 2:07 AM EST up reply actions
The rules that apply to the final 8 also cover trades
The rules don’t allow a team to circumvent the restrictions by using a trade.
Kampman already tried playing 3-4 OLB. He just wasn't any good at it.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 2:14 AM EST up reply actions
Great post Southern Panther
One thing I disagree with however is the idea of moving Beason back to OLB. I know he spent time there in college, but a lot of Beason’s value to the team is as a defensive leader. It’s easier to see defensive alignments and call defensive audibles from the MLB position, rather than the OLB. I’d see moving him as messing with a good thing.
Wilfork would be a dream. He again fits into the role of ‘pay me’ territory, which could mean a massive contract… but he is a guy who needs to be doubled on every down.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Follow Up
I actually did a little follow up on this, and some NFL “expert” said that Dansby actually fits the bill to play outside linebacker which would work out perfectly for us. I agree, I’d rather avoid moving Beason, but if Dansby could move to outside linebacker he’d be a huge upgrade over Diggs.
by SouthernPanther on Feb 16, 2010 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
He would definitely be an upgrade over Diggs
However, we just extended N’ail… and Dansby is going to go for more money than I think Richardson will commit to OLB.
Personally, if all it took was a 5th rounder for Philly to get Witherspoon from St. Louis we should have given a 4th.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
+1
I was totally thinking the same thing when that trade happened! I was shocked. Witherspoon was a beast for us and I couldn’t believe he went for such a low pick.
by SouthernPanther on Feb 16, 2010 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
He's also very expensive for a guy who's proven he's not very good in the middle.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 2:19 AM EST up reply actions
Wait wait!
I understand the logic in replacing Na’il Diggs. Personally, I think it should have happened last year. But what about a certain kid from Penn State? Has everyone forgotten about poor Dan Conner and his tremendous Pre-Season? We won’t need a linebacker with him waiting in the wings.
If you ask me, I’m on board for a good NT or DT. Right now the guys we already have has aged up pretty well, and no one knows how well Kemo will recover after his knee heals up. I’d love to make a move for Vince, but like it’s been stated he probably won’t be available in FA.
Maybe we could snatch up Richard Seymour from the Raiders after they screw up their extension for him again. Besides those two guys, the rest of the younger free agents are kept away from us because of all of the uncapped year bull. Pretty bloody shame if you ask me. Bloody shame.
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
+1 on Connors
we dont need a linebacker. anderson and connor are both solid players at this point. maybe one day they become more than that if they get the chance
by pantherpride on Feb 17, 2010 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
If Oakland doesn't extend Seymour (and he wants to stay), they'll franchise him.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 2:19 AM EST up reply actions
He'd also be a huge increase in cost.
Would the marginal improvement in ability really be worth it?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 2:18 AM EST up reply actions
Witherspoon has been missed!
Unfortunately, he left Carolina via free agency, because he is only interested in playing in the middle. I don’t know about you guys but I am not ready to shuffle JB to the outdside in order to make room for an aging WW….As much as I would love to un-retire my Jersey and see him in the team colors one more time.
Except he's far better on the outside than in the middle.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 2:20 AM EST up reply actions
I think Dansby
Could be a SLB.:)
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 17, 2010 5:47 AM EST reply actions
I know this wasn't associated with this post
but has anyone ever thought of Peppers going to the Atlanta Falcons. The Falcons have a shot to making it to the Playoffs this coming season and Peppers would terrorize us twice a season. I really don’t want to think about it, but we all know it’s a possiblilty if they let him walk. Arthur Blank would give Peppers 15M per season, he’s the one that gave a mediocre Vick 10-12 M per season before he got in trouble. We all know he’s not going to the Bucs and the Saints are out of it. I hope and pray he doesn’t go to the Falcons.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 17, 2010 11:14 AM EST reply actions
Peppers doesn't scare me
Jordan Gross could handle him… that I’m confident in.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Feb 17, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
+1
Gross practiced against him every day for 7 years, we’re fine.
by SouthernPanther on Feb 17, 2010 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
peppers will destroy us
With little help from whatever team he is on…I hope I never have to see it happen but if it does ill put every penny to my name on peppers team and ill be getting PAID!
Richardson you better not screw this up for me!
by STEVEN 785 on Feb 17, 2010 12:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ha...please.
Where has this “destruction” been come playoff time? Eight games, two sacks.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 2:21 AM EST up reply actions
funny
Peppers destruction of the other team came in the Feb 2009 Pro Bowl when he thought he was leaving Carolina. I could see him doing that to us if he got to play us again, but not against opponents on regular basis.
by usana_gaines on Feb 19, 2010 8:58 AM EST up reply actions
Ha...
Yes, he tore it up in a game where the other 21 players on the field cared as little as he did. Big shocker there.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 19, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
true
the point was that he tore it up in a meaningless game because he thought it would help him get a little bigger paycheck. blocking schemes were simplified, and most guys weren’t working as hard as him. too bad for him, though, he got stuck making millions in carolina.
by usana_gaines on Feb 19, 2010 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
NOT
That’s funny! I’ve been to training camp for the last several years and have witnessed first hand that Jordan cannot handle Pep. Having said that…..bring it on!!!! I’m weary of the saga and look forward to moving on without the guy. I’ve loved him since watching him as a Tar Heel, but enough is enough.
by Adam LaClair on Feb 17, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
From what I read last year...
Gross couldn’t handle Peppers in practice. I think that was a big reason that they tagged him.
Sorry James, that DOES scare me
We all know how Peppers is when he gets motivated. And if you don’t think he’d get motivated to go against his former team, then your kidding yourself. Even low-key, easy going guys like Moose got fired up to play their old team. And while Gross played Peppers every day in practice for a long time, Peppers played Gross every day in practice too. Pep probably knows more about Gross as an OT than any other player in the league.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 18, 2010 2:58 AM EST up reply actions
Muhammad got fired up?
He had one game in both Carolina and Chicago where he played the team from his previous stop. He combined for 11-108-1. Not exactly a human wrecking ball.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not talking about stats
I’m talking about motivation. In interviews before the game, no question Moose was fired up. Same with Chris Harris. Harris made an impact that game, and Moose needed the rest of the offense around him to make an impact. That’s just how receiver goes, you can only catch what they throw to you.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 19, 2010 1:12 AM EST up reply actions
Peppers would probably "terrorize" us the same way he does most teams with good tackles...
couple tackles a game, maybe a sack every three or four games.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 2:21 AM EST up reply actions
Ask Bryant Mckinnie if he thinks Pep is a slacker.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 18, 2010 2:59 AM EST up reply actions
One game does not desire prove.
Particularly one game on national TV when he was trying to audition for the whole league to get out of Charlotte.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
And do you think playing his old team would offer less motivation?
It’s not just Mckinnie he’s abused, but that’s besides the point.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 19, 2010 1:13 AM EST up reply actions
Peppers ain't going nowhere
Guys…Peppers is not going anywhere. He will continue to play for the Panthers. No team will pay him more than what the Panthers will. He is not looking for a 1-year deal. He wants a long term 15M/yr deal. With an uncertain 2011…thats not going to happen. I still believe Richardson will make him an offer which will better than what other teams offer him.
by Indian Panther on Feb 18, 2010 9:20 AM EST up reply actions
Ha...
You’re crazy if you think he won’t get a mega-offer from a team like the Redskins, Raiders, or Eagles as an unrestricted free agent in an uncapped year.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
Not disagreeing with you
But many “respected” members of the national media seem to think Peppers is one of several UFAs to stay away from this offseason. Hasn’t stopped Daniel Snyder in the past, though.
It only takes one out of 32...
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
the offers
There is NO WAY Pep plays for us again if we don’t offer him a contract. It doesn’t matter what other teams do. If we don’t make an offer, he walks. He’s more likely to be unemployed (which we know what happen), than to get paid $20 mil by JR. He has 25 sacks over the last 32 games. Hardly anyone can compare to those numbers, but if he gets $20 mil for 11 more sacks, that would be just stupid. Didn’t he get an extra $1.5 mil for making the pro bowl, giving him $18.2 mil for this past season. So if he gets $20 mil next year, that would be $38 mil over two seasons for 20-25 sacks. Not gonna happen. He’ll get a long term deal somwhere else. The fact is, if he is the best DE EVER (which he’s not) he still wouldn’t be worth that kind of money to us. MP and I disagree about his work ethic and effort, but it’s hard to argue about the money. Give me Kampman and Adalius Thomas for that money, and there is still change left over after that.
by usana_gaines on Feb 19, 2010 9:04 AM EST up reply actions
We HAVE made an offer.
It was for more money than any other defender had ever gotten. He turned it down.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 19, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
!!!
But only slightly….=P just kidding…so lame Pep
by SouthernPanther on Feb 19, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
ok,
What about Otah. You know he moves from right to left DE attimes.
by panthertillidrop on Feb 17, 2010 11:59 AM EST reply actions
Otah could have some difficulties… but the coaches know to a tee what Julius’ weaknesses are as well as his strengths.
They don’t even need to watch film, all it takes is the D-line coach to say to Otah ‘He struggles against X’ and they can scheme for it.
So in the event Julius decides to actually show up and play if he ended up on another team I think we could deal with him.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I think that you have it backwards
Julius knows the weaknessess of the Panthers’ O-line. The reports from training camp were that Peppers made Gross look silly on more than one occassion. If the Panthers let him walk -and yes it looks like that WILL be the case now – it will come back to haunt them. As in “I think he broke our quarterback.”
I’ve seen Tyler Brayton dominate Jordan Gross in camp then watch at Gross manhandles some of the league’s best DE’s in the regular season.
I can count on one hand how many times Julius has legitimately taken over a game in his career. The bark of Peppers is often far worse than the bite.
I don’t know how much is ‘wishful thinking’ and how much is just being very confident in our offensive line’s abilities.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Feb 17, 2010 7:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This a million times over.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 2:22 AM EST up reply actions
+1
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 18, 2010 3:00 AM EST up reply actions
To grip's comment
You guys have said it yourself perfectly, when Pep is motivated he’s the best DE to put on a jersey. Well, he’s going to be motivated. And he knows our entire offensive line, he can say to Babs on the interior “Wharton does X in Y situation” I do not look forward to playing Peppers at all next season, let alone twice a year if he went to Atlanta.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 18, 2010 3:02 AM EST up reply actions
Couldn't Kindal Moorehead have done the same thing?
Strikes me that they didn’t suddenly start destroying us when he got in town.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
Morehead didn't have the talent Pep did
Also I don’t think he played all that much against us, he was a rotational guy at his best.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 19, 2010 1:14 AM EST up reply actions
the money
If Pep could destroy us, he still isnt’ worth the money. I mean, really, the highest paid defensive player of all time. Look at the 2008 season, his best ever. 14.5 sacks. Last year he had 10.5 sacks, 2 INTs and a TD despite playing some games with a broken hand. He is incredible, and I think he is the best DE in the league. But I cannot see him making so much more money than D-Will, Smitty, Moore, Jake, Beason, etc. He is not that important to the team to cost that much money. Suppose Everette Brown starts and only gets 7 sacks. 3.5 less sacks for about $17 million less. I can handle that.
by usana_gaines on Feb 19, 2010 9:09 AM EST up reply actions
What's your point?
If your concern was that he’d share information about the tendencies of our OL, then Moorehead was no less capable of sharing that information. Hell, I could watch practices and make the same report.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 19, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Well John Abraham always destroyed us
Maybe Morehead gave him info. My concern is this. We all know Peppers has some INSANE talent, right? Even you can’t deny that, although I’m sure you’d like to. When motivated, he is the best DE in the game. You are kidding yourself if you think he won’t motivate himself to play against us. And when he does, I would hate to be Gross or Moore.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 20, 2010 2:15 AM EST up reply actions
Sure he does.
If he wanted to, he could be among the best and most impactful players in the history of the game. But unfortunately for the people rooting him on and signing his paychecks, he simply doesn’t most of the time. And while you say you’d think he’d get fired up to play us, you’d also think he’d get fired up for the playoffs. And his playoff career is mediocre at best. The truth to me is just that he can be schemed out of the game with good enough talent and game-planning to overcome his talent, no matter how motivated he is.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 21, 2010 9:27 PM EST up reply actions
MP
You can’t handle the truth!
:D
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 22, 2010 2:46 AM EST up reply actions
Peppers will go to a team that will turn him lose
and everyone will realize that the only man that could slow him down was John Fox and his defensive scheme that had Peppers maintaining a containment position.
Not the only man...
Ryan Clady did pretty well in his rookie season completely shutting Pep out of every single play ; )
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
As did the decidedly mediocre Matt Light this year.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 2:25 AM EST up reply actions
Bryant Mckinnie was a solid tackle.
And as for Pep’s “career dominating games”, I can’t speak for his entire career, but the past few seasons, he’s dominated three or four teams a season, at least one a playoff contender. You’re not going to get a sack every game, you’re going to have bad days. Look at Jared Allen, a guy most people point to as what Pep should be. He had more than half of his sacks against a Green Bay team BEFORE they fixed their OT issues. I sometimes think you guys expectations of Peppers are unrealistic, yes, he has had issues in the past with motivation, I’m not going to deny that. But I’m going to point at his domination in games like Arizona, Washington, and Minnesota as proof he has turned the corner, while being limited with a broken hand.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 18, 2010 3:06 AM EST up reply actions
"Limited with a broken hand?"
According to what? If he was suited up, he should be giving 100% and performing up to his own standard of play. Dominant games are nice and all, but I’d prefer he avoid the invisible games even more.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
+1
I want 16 games at 100% instead of 3 games as a dominating beast and 7 or 8 games as a non-existent ghost on the field.
Absolutely.
If you can dominate Bryant McKinnie, you should never be single-blocked by TEs and FBs as Peppers was multiple times this season and throughout his career.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
100% with a broken hand is different than 100% without it
He probably wasn’t held out because he could go, just not at full effectiveness. A lot of times he was just out there for the fear factor, which despite your attempts to prove to the contrary, Peppers still maintains throughout the league.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 19, 2010 1:15 AM EST up reply actions
There's no "fear factor" when teams are willing to single block a DE with a tight end or fullback.
It happened many times last year, and it was very effective.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 19, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
Hmmmm
I didn’t notice. Sure it was this year?
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 20, 2010 2:16 AM EST up reply actions
Yes.
I remember specifically the first Atlanta game, and it was discussed in the Julius Peppers, play-by-play breakdown here on CSR.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 21, 2010 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
Ah
The game where the entire defense underperformed and many plays Peppers was not a factor. No mention of the many times they ran to the other side or got rid of the ball quickly. Of course, that one game means we should let him go.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 22, 2010 2:47 AM EST up reply actions
not one game
that one game doesn’t mean we should let him go, but look at your argument. you mention they got rid of the ball quickly and ran to the other side. if that’s all it takes, is he worth $20 million? he’s obviously the kind of DE every team wants, but he’s not worth the money.
by usana_gaines on Feb 22, 2010 3:04 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I'm not advocating paying him 20 mil
No player, except maybe some QB’s, are worth it. A defense is only as good as the sum of it’s parts, Peppers is just one part. I’d love for a trade to get draft picks, or a long term extension, but ultimately if he walks we will replace him. I’m advocating keeping him because he is a once in a decade talent, and despite a lot of the hate directed his way he does put in effort.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 22, 2010 3:13 AM EST up reply actions
"Turn him loose?"
What were they doing in ’08, asking him not to rush the QB?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 2:23 AM EST up reply actions
Yes... more or less
John Fox said that sacks were overrated. A lot of football people feel that sacks are the most overrated stat in the game. When a DE records a lot of sacks, it usually means that he is taking an inside route, which leaves the TEAM vulnerable. Jared Allan has been used as a prime example of this.
If the coaches were expecting lots of sacks from Peppers do you REALLY think that they would have offered him a contract that would have made him the highest paid defensive player after 2008? Which brings us to Peppers perceived lack of motivation. I have never known a football coach who could tolerate anything less than 100% effort. For god’s sakes, it was football coaches that coined the term “giving 110%.”
The only ones who really know how well a player is performing are the coaches that tell him what his assignment is and then grade every snap BASED ON THAT. Do you really believe that Peppers would get to play, let alone be franchised, if he were grading out as badly as you think that he is playing? Do you really think that the coaching staff has overlooked a lackadaisical output of effort by Peppers? Do you think that they’re all stoned?
I’ve got to believe that the coaches have had schemed the defense to keep Peppers maintaining a containment position. I also think that is the reason that Peppers was frustrated playing here and wanted out.
Yes, I do.
Because I don’t think it has anything to do with scheme. I think it had to do with his effort and desire to play. And they knew as well as I do that he can be dominant when he feels like it. That’s just not particularly often.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 18, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
I agree...
Though I must add, if our coaches weren’t pressuring the QB with Pep intentionally, I have to wonder what they were thinking? Peppers isn’t exactly as terrifying a run stopper as he is a pass rusher (which is another reason I wouldn’t be bothered by having to play against him).
I also disagree that sacks are overrated.. Anything that disrupts a play and amounts to a loss of yardage (sometimes a massive loss) couldn’t be considered overrated in my book. If my defense is moving the opponents offense in the wrong direction, I’m happy,
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
by D-Ranged1 on Feb 18, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
About sacks being overrated
I think that the point is arguable and both sides have their points. I do agree with your point about disruption, etc., and I think that a sack can be a game changer. My point is that I think that the Panthers’ coaching staff schemed the defense with less emphisis on sacks. This approach would not make them unique.
I also don’t think that Peppers liked playing this style of defense and that it was the biggest reason that he wanted out. I think that the changes made to the defense this past season are why he’s changed his position regarding leaving.
One more point: Peppers is regarded as being a very good DE against the run by most analysts.
Seriously?
Have you ever known a football coach? I don’t believe that there has ever been a football coach that advanced beyond PeeWee league that could tolerate anything but total effort. They might appear to be laid back, but that’s just compaired to other coaches. Compaired to everyone else, they are an intense group of people.
Also, do you really think that would have been okay with him making all of that money and only trying hard when he felt like it? More money for him means less for everyone else when there’s a salary cap. It would have destroyed the locker room.
How did the Panthers team react to him making over $1M a game? They elected him captain. You must think that everyone in the Panthers organization, from the FO to the coaching staff, to the players are doing something to mellow out.
I have noticed a slow decline in his apparent effort on some running plays...
for the last 3 or 4 years. He will turn it off once he sees a couple teammates have the ball-carrier in their sights. Maybe he figures diving around into piles is not going to extend his career, but I have noticed him shut it down early on certain plays. I think he has become very adept at hiding it, though too.
by ERL on Feb 18, 2010 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
One of the things I love about Peppers
is his pursuit in run plays. Especially this year with Meeks, I think a lot of this was last season with Trgovac. This year, Meeks really let the whole D-line loose on passing downs.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 19, 2010 1:19 AM EST up reply actions
Yep
MP thinks the coaches are stoned. Explains why they stuck with Jake. :P
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 19, 2010 1:17 AM EST up reply actions
scheme
You cannot ignore the scheme as much as you want. You try to act like referring to the scheme is completely wrong, but it isn’t. Peppers has spent a lot of time dropping back into coverage in zones. He has often covered a fullback or RB coming out of the backfield. In addition, teams can run away from him and employ quicker pass plays to minimize him. A 3 step drop and a quick slant make it very difficult for a DE to get a sack. Then you can run the ball to other side of the field, especially when your team is beating the Panthers cuz of all the turnovers. With that said (and obviously MP and I disagree about Pep), HE STILL AIN’T WORTH ALL THE MONEY HE’S DEMANDING. I would like to see someone compare his stats over the last two seasons with DEs that they think are actually better than Pep. The real difference between Pep and those other DEs won’t be the stats, but their salaries.
by usana_gaines on Feb 19, 2010 9:16 AM EST up reply actions
No, he hasn't spent "a lot" of time in coverage.
He did it two or three plays a game (out of 50+) in ’08, and did it even less this year.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 19, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
wut?
where do you get these stats from? i think you made it up. i’ve seen games where he certainly dropped back in coverage more often than your statline, but i don’t have numbers for a whole season. provide your source. regardless of the final numbers, you can’t deny that the scheme does have something to do with it.
by usana_gaines on Feb 19, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
I watch every game at least twice, and the Observer even tracked him play by play in several during '08.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 19, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
Peppers
Carolina is being foolish for not at least talking to peppers. It would not surprise me if the Panthers lose Peppers, and turn into one of the worse defenses in 2010. Last Year his agent was filling his head with garbage, and after playing all year, he now realizes that Carolina is a good place to be. He wants to talk, but the team management is acting like a 13 year old girl. They will give Del-homie and Gamble long term contracts but not Peppers. What are they thinking. Don’t get me wrong I like Delhomie as long as he is throwing to the right team, but he is not accurate. One time its too deep, the next time its short. Gamble makes some plays, but also gets burnt a lot also. One Interception does not make up for getting burned for a touchdown. But they don’t want to even talk to Peppers. Another mistake in a long line of mistakes.
disagree
i just think about the money. i mean, everyone on here obviously knows keeping peppers for the right price is the smart thing to do, but the right price is a few million PER YEAR less than what he’ll accept. if you could guarantee me 25 sacks, 3 pics and 2 TDs, and a blocked kick or two, he’d be worth what he’s asking, maybe. but if that keeps us from improving in other areas on the other team, then he’s still not worth it.
by usana_gaines on Feb 19, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
If losing him would degenerate us into the worst...
Shouldn’t we have been the best with him? If losing him commands that kind of drop in performance, why wasn’t there an equivalent boost during his time here? Yes, I know he’s a beast and I know losing him will hurt, it’s great having Pep on the field but he didn’t make us the #1 defense in the NFL because he’s only one man and with that said, if we lose him, we’re only losing one man.
We’d still have Davis, Beason, Harris, Marshall, a stable line, and a slew of young, solid players that gained valuable experience this year, plus whoever we draft.
With or without Pep, I expect a top 5 defense next year.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
"One of the worst defenses?"
How do you figure? We’ve got Pro Bowl-caliber players at no less than five of the eleven positions on defense (SS, CB, CB, ROLB, and MLB), along with a deep and versatile corps at DE which will surely be supplemented by a draftee or FA signing. Will there be a dropoff without Peppers? Sure, but this team still has the talent to be an upper-end defense in the league. Further, there’s a huge difference between Delhomme’s contract (which puts him at the middle level of his position in the NFL), Gamble’s contract (which puts him at the upper end of his position, but not out of line with players of his accomplishments), and the contract which Peppers is demanding (which will not only pay him vastly more than any player at his postion, but almost any player in the league.)
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 19, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
You're awfull lose with the Pro Bowl designations
I love Chris Harris, and I’d rate him in the top half at his position, but he’s not a Pro Bowler and probably never will be. Same with the 2 CB’s.
That's ballsy of you to say knowing Hitman reads the threads...
I gotta give it to you for that.
But, I disagree. I think he’s pro-bowl caliber (and I’m not just sucking up) and I think he’s gonna come out in 2010 and make his name known.
His name should be known already.
Any player who can force nine fumbles in a year (as he did in his first season here) deserves to be mentioned. Those numbers have fallen off a bit, but somebody listed that he’s still among the tops in that category when you combine each of his seasons as a Panther.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 21, 2010 9:24 PM EST up reply actions
I'd disagree..
Well, actually, I’ll disagree with both of you, in a sense.
In todays football, “pro-bowl caliber player”, to me, means the most popular player, not the most talented. The fact that a player is a “pro bowl player” means next to nothing to me considering the pro bowl itself is a joke that I cannot even watch.
Now, I think the players MP mentioned are definitely top of the line players and completely agree with the point he was making. We’ve got plenty of talent to make up for a lack of Peppers.
Also gotta agree with BWSmith, 2010 is the year of the Hitman :).
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
Hitman!
Seriously already in South Africa a new brand of de-oderant came out in Jan. It’s called HITMAN!
One of South Africa's only Carolina Panthers and fans.
by chinchillas sword on Feb 20, 2010 4:20 AM EST up reply actions
You're right about the Pro Bowl, D-Ranged1
It is a joke. I don’t even watch it anymore.
Hitman’s gonna be kicking ass and taking names this year! I can’t wait to watch!
The Panthers need to talk to him...
especially if they think that he’s asking for too much money. It would really be stupid if it turns out that no one is willing or able to pay the mega bucks because of uncertainties regarding the future salary cap and then lose Peppers to a contract that the Panthers would have been willing to pay – except they burned the bridges by not talking to him.
I do agree that it would be a mistake to give him a contract that hamstrings them down the road. But how much is too much if he’s the missing piece to a Super Bowl win. Imagine how you’ll feel if next year at this time, when Peppers has a Super Bowl ring with his new team; after he destroyed our QB to knock the Panthers out of the playoffs. I’m sure that you’ll be gloating because we didn’t have to pay him $20M.
Another point that gets me – that I keep reading over and over on these posts – is "let him walk and use the money we save to get 2 or 3 other good players. As if you can just go to the Wal-Mart and pick out a couple of Pro-Bowlers. It’s like the comments that we should have drafted a ProBowl QB. IT’S NOT THAT EASY!!! And if $20M is overpaying Peppers, isn’t it still better than overpaying a journeyman FA?
He's obviously not the missing piece to a Super Bowl.
He’s been here for nine years, and we’ve gotten no Super Bowl.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 19, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
First of all, we haven't talked to any of our FA's
Pep is the one raising the stink. I’m sure that after Carl’s little announcement, Hurney called to resolve any misunderstanding. He probably figured Peppers knew how he did business.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 20, 2010 2:27 AM EST up reply actions
Huh??????
I didn’t say that he WAS the missing piece. I just raised the question that if he is the difference than maybe $20M isn’t excessive.
And he’s only been here for eight years.
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