Carolina Panthers Monday Morning Optimist (Friday Edition)- 12/24/10
by James Dator on Dec 24, 2010 7:00 AM EST
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Merry Christmas eve Panther faithful. Last night's game was a microcosm for the Panthers' season as a whole. Carolina were outmatched by their opponents and helped them by ostensibly beating themselves with badly dropped passes, missed opportunities and costly turnovers.
It was a game where looking at the box score is misleading. Yes, Jimmy Clausen made mistakes, he definitely needs to get better and understanding and avoiding the pass rush... but in my belief the wide receivers let him down as much as he let them down. Fact is: Jimmy Clausen has a handlful of moments every game where he looks like he has a NFL future, a handful of moments that make him look like he has no business in the NFL and a larger set of plays that fall in between; we are left with a bell curve of mediocrity that doesn't sell him enough to stave off a top QB falling in the Panthers' laps during the draft.
That being said, in honor of Christmas cheer, peace on earth and goodwill to all men I think it apropos to concentrate on a good sign for the Panthers, rather than concentrate on an unsure one; the defensive ends as a group have really stepped up in the absence of Julius Peppers and proven that we may not need a top DE heading into the NFL draft.
Let's take a look at the DE's and give out our holiday cheers and jeers.... after the jump.
Based purely on sacks alone the Carolina Panthers had 31 sacks in 2009. Of these 31 sacks, 22 came from the DE's.
Thus far in 2010 the Carolina Panthers have 30 sacks. Of these 30 sacks, 17.5 have come from the DE's. Okay, so superficially the Panthers have dropped off, but don't think it's because they're lacking Julius Peppers, but rather Tyler Brayton falling off the face of the earth. Brayton accounted for 5.5 sacks in 2009, and has none in 2010. Instead guys like Charles Johnson (11.5 sacks), Everette Brown (3.5 sacks) and Geg Hardy (3 sacks). Three young players accounting for all the sacks of the DE's. This is very encouraging.
Of these three players there's one who stands out, Charles Johnson. What started as an amusing curiosity of comparing Johnson's sack total to Peppers' has transcended into putting Johnson in th annals of NFL elite. Think that statement is fraught with hyperbole? Think again.
Granted, there is one more game for most of the league to play, but as it stands right now Johnson is 3rd in the NFL among 4-3 DE in sacks. Let that sink in for a second: third in the NFL. More than Justin Tuck, more than Osi Umenyiora, more than Jared Allen, Trent Cole and the aforementioned Julius Peppers. The only players in front of Johnson as it stands are Atlanta's John Abraham and Tennessee's Jason Babin, both with 12 sacks.
I'll be the first to give myself a pat on the back for saying Johnson would surprise people this year, but truth be told he surprised even me. Perhaps most impressive is that he's amassed this number without any assistance from his opposite number in Brayton, nor has he benefited from a strong defensive line to make his life easier. Though it's a basketball term analysts always refer to great players as "creating their own shot" not having to rely on anyone else to make them look better than they are, well, Charles Johnson is "creating his own sacks" and proving that he is ready to be a force in the NFL.
Optimsitic
Charles Johnson- Extemely Optimistic: See above
Derek Landri- Extremely Optimistic: Landri really has been good when given the opportunity this year. He doesn't get a lot of chances to shine but his 3 tackle, sack performance did that.
Greg Hardy- Somewhat Optimstic: What I like so much about Hardy is his natural ability to understand what move to use at what time. One of the largest critiques of Everette Brown is that he has a Dwight Freeney-esque love with the spin move, almost to a fault. Hardy on the other hand knows when to rip, run over his man or spin. While his name doesn't appear on the box score Hardy was busy all night long and looked to be threatening on numerous occasions despite a stout Pittsburgh OL.
One more game to go- Tangentially Optimistic: The pain that is 2010 is almost over. Once the Superbowl is over the clock is reset and everyone is 0-0 again. Only difference is that bar some act of god we'll have the #1 overall pick to play with.
Pessimistic
Secondary- Extremely Pessimistic: Just terrible game by the entire secondary. Ben Roethlisberger shredded the cover-2 all night and while it can be toug for an individual to make a dent when the QB is carving up the zone it's also incumbent upon the players to make plays on the ball when they're there.
Wide Receivers- Extremely Pessimistic: None of the receivers did anything to help the QB last night. Whether it was David Gettis not fighting for the ball resulting in the INT, or Smitty yet again dropping passes it was ugly. Smith is now tied 4th in the NFL in drops with 9.
Offensive Line- Extremely Pessimistic: We need help... simple as that because they can't keep letting pass rushers through the line unblocked.
Not much else to say really.
Overall Analysis
Normally here I'd wax poetic about our next opponent, talk about 'winnable games' or other some such... but there's not much to say. 2010 is almost over and the promise of a new season abounds thankfully.
This is the last MMO for 2010 due to the Thursday night game, so I would like to thank each and every one of you for reading each week. I promise you, I love writing this for you guys each and every week and hopefully we'll have a lot more optimism in 2011.
Have a very happy and safe holidays!
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Depth Depth Depth
This year has just proven that we have a lot of “surface” talent but need to replenish the depth that we used to have in spades during the playoff years (especially on the Oline…Hangartner was the best sixth man ever)!
That being said, I think many of the youngsters getting playing time now will turn into quality backups at the least, but we just got to endure the growing pains right now. I was actually quite impressed with the Dline as a whole last night, but rapelisberger is just ridiculously hard to bring down lol I knew CJ would be good at least but god damn, I didn’t think he would be THIS good! like many have said: PAY THAT MAN!!!
and in the spirit of the season, I'm refraining from the QB debate this week lol
I think we’ve all repeated our opinions on the topic ad nausea um enough for 2010 :p here’s to the most interesting offseason since 2002!
I think I agree with everything you wrote
So does that make me an optimist too?
I’m super encouraged by our young DE’s as well. But we still have a lot of holes to fill. And I’m extremely curious how a new staff attempts to do this… If we’ll have a new staff in time to do it… And how a new CBA or lockout could effect all this.
Regardless, it should be a fun off season! Merry Christmas!
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 24, 2010 7:44 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Johnson
Just think if Charles was able to pad his sack stats against our O line twice a year like Abraham.
I'm really dreading this CBA drama...
All its going to be is blah blah blah we don’t want to play 18 regular season games and 2 preseason games blah blah blah tough shit we’re gonna make you blah blah blah we want 60% of revenue going to player salaries blah blah blah 60%? how bout go fuck yourselves?…..
I don't wan't 18 regular season games
It’s hard enough to get through 16 healthy.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Merry Christmas fellow Panther fans
I hope everyone has a wonderful holiday. Last night was rough but we’ll be back…..some day….maybe…lol
Wide receivers- Pessimistic
As much as I would like to say I am pessimistic…I cannot blame Gettis for the INT. That ball was overthrown by a few yards and thrown to the Defense. He has been the only true find in our receiving core this season.
It is Smith that has been a total failure. You expect a “loud-mouth fire breathing” veteran to do better than what he did last night. I think we have seen the last of Smith in a Panther uniform (as much as I hate that thought)
Well…I can still dream. Wishing all you Panther faithfuls a wonderful holiday season. As you sip on the eggnog and gorge on your turkey and ham…..DREAM. Dream of a Super 2011-2012 season. May those dreams keep you warm.
I can't fault Smitty entirely...
If I were him I would be upset with this entire season and I would be breathing fire as well. Clausen seems to lack the touch needed for players to catch the ball consistently. It’s the velocity he uses when throwing… if he has time he gets good velocity and touch, when forced… not so much and the ball can end up anywhere. Some QB’s have touch no matter if they’re forced or not like say Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Mark Sanchez, even big Ben… the ball comes out the same way every time. Receivers don’t have to over compensate or under compensate for where the ball will end up.
If you throw over my shoulder and lead me every time I’ll become more accustomed to your passes and catch more. If I have to taper off my routes or speed those up to get to the ball… that split second indecision will make me look like… a Rookie (there… I’ve said it).
by Caro2daheart on Dec 24, 2010 9:17 AM EST up reply actions
They'll do much better once we improve our O-line
They are young and being asked to make veteran catches in coverage, because when Clausen has time to throw, it’s due to defenses having dropped a lot of guys into coverage. However when defenses blitz us, which is often, somebody is almost always open.
I think if we can buy Clausen (or whoever) another second or two then we’ll see them making more plays down field… And that will give them confidence to make the tougher catches as well.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Gettis giving up on a route is not a rookie mistake
There is no excuse for that. I have been more impressed with Brandon Lafell as of late rather than Gettis. Smith dropping passes is not acceptable either. I’m not saying that I want to but it may be in the best interest of this team to trade Smith and pick up AJ Green in the first round fi Luck doesn’t come out.
Ya boi Still gettin it in!!
Don't want to make excuses for them... But it's true that when it rains it pours
These guys (including Smitty) have no rhythm or chemistry, no expectations of what Clausen will do, and they rarely get to warm up with any easy catches. So when they finally do get an opportunity, the team is so desperate for them to make a big play that they are thinking about getting down field instead of keeping their eyes on the ball.
On one hand it’s unacceptable, on the other we see stupid mistakes like this happen all the time when the a team is accumulatively not playing well.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
The possibility of Johnson and Hardy as bookends on the D-Line is salivating...
Imagine what those two are going to accomplish together if we can get a stud DT or two to complement them….
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Assuming Hardy can stay healthy for a 16-18 game season
But I agree. Charles Johnson looks like he’s getting doubled often. Bringing in a big-time DT to free him up more might make him a premier DE. But if we draft a QB 1st overall, then where do we find such a DT?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
that's my problem
It would be really cool to have a Peyton Manning… but I will settle for a Drew Brees. And yes I think Clasuen has the tools to get there. I think it would be wise to trade the pick to someone and full multiple voids.
And then there’s FA, but I like that we build through the draft and I would like to keep it that way.
What has Clausen done to make think "he has the tools to get there"?
I’m asking this sincerely, because I have seen nothing to suggest that he’ll ever be an elite NFL QB.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 24, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
I'm thinking Clausen has the tools to get to the level of Chad Henne in a couple years.
I was thinking that I was drinking too much....so I quit thinking
That's great, but why?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
They strike me as having very similar skillsets (arm strength, accuracy, release)
… and Henne breaks and runs right when he should step up. He does keep his head up better than Clausen, and can complete the sideline pass on the run. It’s really something that just popped in my head while watching Dolphins; “He reminds me of Clausen.”
I was thinking that I was drinking too much....so I quit thinking
I always liked Henne.
He makes more boneheaded decisions than Clausen though. If we have a safer version of Chad Henne, that’ll definitely be worth some draft picks in the future. And it could be a very good piece to build around as well. However, if we can get a gamechanging QB, that would definitely be an upgrade.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 24, 2010 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
i dont want to settle for a Henne
period. I have not been very impressed by anyone we have put under center this year. Even if the line gets overhauled tremendously, i still think they are all projects and mediocre at best.
Greg Hardy is the most double teamed guy on the Line.
He gets double teamed almost every play
Ya boi Still gettin it in!!
Only if we get a good DT
I drink to the tought of Charles and hardy as bookends……
Charles and Hardy/Brown can get 25 sacks between them if we draft a good DT. That is our biggest need. Even greater than a QB.
Even if it is Marvin Austin the 2nd or 3rd round…..We need a GOOD Tackle. Someone with speed and power. Maybe a Paea or a Crick in 2011.
by Indian Panther on Dec 24, 2010 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
I don't see how any position could be a greater need then QB
This is what your entire team is built around. All the premier teams… NO, Indy, Pittsburg, ATL, NE, all have one thing in common… And it’s not a franchise DT, it’s a franchise QB!
Actually I can’t think of a single team over the past 10 years that’s been consistently on top, that doesn’t have a franchise QB.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
dt over qb.. dont think so
im glad you said 2nd or 3rd round cause right now its not gonna do any good to get a dt if we have a qb that cant even get the team into the inzone.. other teams are going to score so we need a qb that can help us score.. i think the problem is that the panthers offence is too predictable.. they know we want to run the ball as apposed to passing so they stack the box against the run.. i’m willing to bet if we could get a qb tht can put up a few good passes here and there that would change things for our offence because then we are a lil more unpredictable.. that will back the defense off the line a lil which will free up sum room for our back to make sum plays. also that will help the o-line give the qb a lil time to get rid of the ball.. clausen is too predictable. he drops back in the same spot everytime so the defense knows where he is.. if he was just a lil more mobile that would probably give him a lil more time to get the ball out instead of being a lame duck waitin to b plucked… my personal opion i suggest the 1st round goes to a qb and work everything arround that.. i defense isnt all that bad and they showed that in the beginning of the yr. if they could get off the field for a while to breath they will b ok with a few tweeks here and there..
by NEXT YEAR PANTHERS PLAYA on Dec 24, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
Our Offense needs far more improvement than our Defense.
The Panther’s D ranks 16th in YPG allowed, tied for 7th best in Yds Per Carry Allowed – yet the Time of Possession they’re on the field is among the highest in the league. Were the Offense to sustain longer drives (I can’t find the number, but I’d bet we’re at the top of number of 3 and Outs), the rest would certainly help the performance of the overworked Defense.
On the other hand, our Offense is ranked DEAD LAST in Points per Game, Yards per Game, First Downs per Game, 29th in Time of Possession, 8th in Most Penalties Incurred, 2nd in Most Fumbles Lost (by 1!)
THIS is where we need the complete overhaul, with as many changes/improvements as possible.
A year ago, we were all screaming about how bad our Special Teams work was, and how it had to be improved. The Panthers went to work on that, getting a new coach and new components, and Hurney will see a similar need this off-season.
I think with better DT's, we look like one of the better DL's in the league
that is if Hardy pans out to what we think he’ll pan out to be. A little Luck plus key additions to OL and DL through FA and the draft, and I think our team is a super bowl contender in 2012!
by Deuceklinco on Dec 24, 2010 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
Please let us get at least two top FAs for OG and DT, and maybe a decent OT as well.
Draft for the future — Luck is the pick. BPA is the best draft philosophy, unless we can put together a trade to move back up for another 1st or 2nd (without trashing the 2012 draft).
I was thinking that I was drinking too much....so I quit thinking
I don’t think we can afford to let go of any of our picks for 2012. Who knows, we may end up near where we are at next season. I’d hate to be in the same position with our second rounder this year, next year with yet another second rounder or, worse yet, our first round pick.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Oh, I totally agree. If we want to move up, it should involve later round picks and/or
players (Goodson?, Gamble?, Connor?, Smitty? …).
I was thinking that I was drinking too much....so I quit thinking
I would probably try to use maybe 1 or 2 later picks first, and then maybe Gamble and/or Connor.
I’d be hesitant to let go of Goodson if we’re going to continue to be a team based on the run. If we’re going to put such a large burden on our RBs, the more of them we can keep, the better – that way the burden can be spread out a little more and we’re more likely to keep them healthy.
Because of the limited depth, I would want to make sure we could get a very good corner in FA or a highly-touted rookie before making a switch with Gamble. Plus, Marshall’s almost certainly out the door. Munnerlyn and McClain have had some good/decent play, and I haven’t noticed enough of Wilson or Stanford (has Stanford even played?)…I’d be hesitant to leave the cornerback position to just those four.
As much as I love Connor, he’s probably the most tempting. He’s a very good LB, but we have a wealth of riches at that position when they’re all healthy (Anderson, Beason, Jamar Williams, Harris, Senn, Davis, etc.). It might also depend on if we stay a 4-3 (I’m guessing we probably will), or go to a 3-4, or a hybrid or some other scheme.
Smitty’s tempting, too. He’s on the decline, and as much as I like him getting fired up, I also think his attitude may be more divisive than anything else. However, I don’t want a bunch of rookies and second-year guys as our only WRs, no matter how promising they are. I don’t know if it would make a lot of sense to use Smitty just to have to get another “vet” that we would need at the position.
OMG it will be like Rucker, Jenkins, Buckner, and Peppers all over again
Ya boi Still gettin it in!!
They were beastly in their day (when they played football for more than the money)
I was thinking that I was drinking too much....so I quit thinking
Good read this early in the A.M.
I’ve been impressed this entire year with the talent we have at the Defensive-end position with the exception of Tyler Brayton. I Agree that the play of these young guys have eliminated the need to draft a DE in the draft unless a good one falls further than expected.
I thought Steward had a good game aswell even though the opposing teams knew exactly when he was going to get the ball… 1& 2 down. I know you want to spell your runningbacks to keep them fresh but I think the "Insert Goodson every two plays is taking away from Stewarts momentum.
Wide recievers HA HA HA HA…
I’m done…. I’m done…
the youngsters
I am really optimistic about our receivers. most receivers don’t break out until their third year, but we have two that have played well “for rookies” this year. Gettis and LaFell will be solid receivers for the next several years for us. as for smitty, i don’t know. assuming you don’t see much difference in quality of play between the three, smitty is the one who’s already peaked. i think he’ll be all-pro next year, though, with luck throwing the ball in a new offense. also, stewart, goodson and sutton could be the best RB combo next season as well. but james is right, it all hinges on the O-line. Luck will need time to pass, and stew needs some holes. I assume a lot, i know, but i think fiametta will be a lot better at blocking next year. i mean, picking up one guy would be huge, whether it’s a blitzing LB or someone else on a run play.
charles johnson looks great, and i feel great about a Anderson, Beason, Davis LB corps, but a new coach could go 3-4 with those three and Connor.
Smitty might never make the ProBowl as a Panther again
Maybe he will if he get’s traded to a team with a better, more veteran offense. But assuming Andrew Luck or whoever will be a Matt Ryan-Joe Flacco like anomaly in his rookie year, is highly unlikely.
With this young team he’ll probably need a year or 2 to make the playoffs. And by then Smitty will be well past his prime. However, I’d love to see Smitty stick around as he get’s older and take more of a Wes Welker like role.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Great MMA James!
I’m almost getting sick to my stomach hearing that Clausen is the problem and to blame for every game though. This offensvie line is a patchwork of second, third stringers, and practice squad guys, and they can’t block diddly squat! The receiving group also let JC down today. Smitty was dropping perfectly catchable passes, Gettis gave up on a play leading to the int, and LaFell was no where to be seen. I’m really starting to believe that the surrounding players are largely to blame rather than the whipping boy JC, who we’ve made out to be the problem.
I heard on a forum yesterday, many crying that JC can’t have it that bad, and theres’no way other teams like St. Louis and Detroit aren’t in the same predicament and that their QBs are rising above. That’s simply not true. Simply look at the O line statistics this year. The Panthers are almost dead last in every O line passing category. We’re second worst in sacks with 47, one sack away from being the worst line from protecting against sacks. And in QB hits, we’re also 3rd worst, having 89 QB hits this year. I mean heck people we’ve had 2 QB concussions and a QB shelved on IR because of piss poor Offensive line protection!
Do the math. That’s more than 3 sacks a game. And almost 6 QB hits a game. Now, we don’t let Clausen drop back to throw more than about 20-25 times per game. 25 snaps minus 6 hits= 19 snaps. 19 snaps minus 3 sacks= 16 snaps. The rest of those 16 snaps, Clausen is being chased after, Smitty drops 3 or 4, Gettis gives up, theres an interception, other drops, and then the necesssary throw OOB because of oncoming rushers and no one getting open. Take a typical drive last night. We run the ball 1st and 2nd down. It’s now 3rd and whatever. Clausen drops back to pass, Mike Goodson can’t pass block for junk, Farrior goes right through Goodson and Clausen gets sacked. There’s absolutely nothing Clausen can do in that situation. Take another play, a screen pass to LaFell. The blockers can’t get setup, the D line is in Clausen’s face, and LaFell’s not even in position to make the catch! Nothing Clausen can do! It’s almost not even fair!
Want to talk about other teams being better? St Louis has a much better line, allowing 30 sacks which is a slightly higher than average, but not alarming as is ours. Bradford has so much more time to throw it’s not even funny, plus he gets more snaps throwing, so he’s naturally going to have higher stats. Also Bradford has a pretty good stable of dependable receivers and tight ends. Talking about Detroit being so bad?? Seriously? Detroit is in the better half of O line statistics. They’ve allowed only 24 thus far and about half of our QB hits. Also they’ve got All Star Calvin Johnson, Brandon Pettigrew who’s playing out of his mind, and a very dependable Jahvid Best and Nate Burleson to throw to So, yeah, I’d imagine it’d be easier for a QB in Detroit because he’s not running for his life all day and because he’s got some serious talent to throw to.
So, YES, our O line is WORSE than just about EVERY other team. And yes, it is largely why Clausen is performing so poorly. I can’t sit here and blame Clausen any more! Until we have an offensive line that can protect Jimmy and some dependable receivers, I reserve the right to withhold my judgement, because I don’t think this is a true indicator of JC’s true potential, and I believe he would be MUCH better!
Here are some typical shots from games, and they don’t lie!
by jkp1516 on Dec 24, 2010 9:51 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Clausen has caused his own sacks more than the o-line has let them through.
He has ran out of the pocket at least 80% of the times he was sacked. Is the o-line supposed to know where he is going to run to to stop them? Count the times he was sacked while in the pocket & i bet its half the sacks. Clausen sucks, he isnt even close to the qb that he was advertised to be. He played in the same offense his whole college career & doesnt know what to do. Sure the o-line can use a little help but Clausen holds onto the ball too long and causes sacks just as much as the o-line doesnt prevent them.
I'm sure that's it
The next to highest sack total and 3rd highest QB hits is all due to our whipping boy Clausen. He brings it all upon himself. No, Goodson who can’t pass block isn’t to fault. Second string G Bernardeau, who has to false start just to get into position isn’t to fault. 3rd string/Practice squad RT Garry Williams who can’t block diddly isn’t to fault. It’s allllll Clausen!
Yep, sacks are all Clausen’s fault! Play calling? Clausen’s fault! Global Warming? Clausen’s fault! Manbearpig?? Clausen’s fault!
Yep, sacks are all Clausen’s fault! Play calling? Clausen’s fault! Global Warming? Clausen’s fault! Manbearpig?? Clausen’s fault!
Yeah…. not sure anyone is saying that at all here. We are pointing out the fact that some sacks and poor decisions are his fault. Your blind faith in him is not letting you see the blame that is placed on him for this season along with everyone else.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Should have been a quote:
Yep, sacks are all Clausen’s fault! Play calling? Clausen’s fault! Global Warming? Clausen’s fault! Manbearpig?? Clausen’s fault!
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
You had it right the first time.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Lol..you're welcome.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Firstly, I'm not a "Clausenite"
And secondly I have no “Blind faith” in Clausen. Like I said earlier, I reserve the right to withhold judgement about Clausen until he is playing with a decent supporting cast. There’s no blind faith in that. I’m not saying I believe that Clausen will be a Pro Bowler, or even that he’ll be good at all. I’m just saying that Clausen has a very poor supporting cast to work with, and I don’t believe that it accurately represents his true talent. I’m not a Clausenite, and I’m not a Clausen-hater who’ll blame him solely. Actually, I believe by withholding my judgement that I’m staying in between the two.
I consider Clausen has about as much experience as Matt Moore does and Moore still would be my pick over Clausen to start.
Moore might not be the qb we hoped for after last season but he still beats out Clausen in my opinion.
Imagine what Fox would look like right now if over the past 8 years he had an elite QB like Belicheck does.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
He's still Fox.
As ingrained in his ways as he seems to be (I don’t know the guy, so I am guessing here), he’d probably still be a run-first, conservative, defensive-minded coach. Maybe there’s hyperbole here, but I honestly would doubt that Foxy would throw the ball much more even if he had a team with a Brady/Manning/Brees/etc. QB. I’m sure any team would produce more with an elite QB, but I doubt Foxy would ever field a team that looked like the Patriots. It doesn’t mean the team couldn’t be as good as the Patriots, but he probably would stick to his run-first, conservative, defense-minded philosophy no matter what QB he had.
I said I'd revisit that comparison after 10 starts, and that's almost here.
Right now, it’s not even a comparison.
A lot of people thought Moore failed this year, and if that’s a correct description, then Clausen is an EPIC FAIL. (And I believe all starts for each of them have been with the same “supporting cast.”)
Not quite
Would you agree Moore had a better team from top to bottom in 2009 and again in 2007 than 2010?
I would wager that 99.9% of Panthers fans would answer that with a resounding ‘yes’.
So, given Moore posted a 59.4 rating in his 5 starts with the 2010 Panthers and Clausen has posted a 62.2 in his isn’t it just as likely the supporting cast shows a complete lack of reliability, given that two different QBs have struggled.
Either that or both Moore and Clausen are terrible and have no future. It’s one or the other as I see it.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
Either that or both Moore and Clausen are terrible and have no future. It’s one or the other as I see it.
It could be exactly that. Last year, teams had no game film on Moore, and consequently, Moore played very well against the pats, vikes, giants, and played decently against tb and no. I think a majority of CSR readers agreed that he struggled this year due to the fact teams had film of him in action and the fact that our team sucks.
Using that same logic, Clausen should have done better than he has because teams had nothing on him. Yet he has played poorly in all his starts (and yes, not all of his play was his fault). One would figure he could put some decent numbers up, but he hasn’t even come close to that.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Well Clausen is a rookie
but I see what your saying we shouldv’e seen something out of clausen by now. Moore on the othr hand has no excuses what so ever because he is a 4 year vet. I knew from the stsrt of the 2010 season that Moore wasn’t the answer due to the fact his success last came from what you said above… Other teams didn’t have any film on Moore and Moore was playing with no pressure to succeed
Ya boi Still gettin it in!!
I totally agree. But I still wouldn't pass up Luck because of this.
And as far as Moore goes, I just don’t think he has much of a ceiling. I wan’t more for this team… I want an elite QB.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I know you didn't. I did.
Just pointing out that regardless of the shaft that Jimmy’s been given… I’d still take Luck.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I don’t feel that we have enough time to wait and see with this guy. We are heading towards a 2-14 season and the fanbase here will not tolerate another season of hope and pray. We cannot afford to put him out there next year with a better cast and hope that that is his only issue. If he fails miserably, then we are screwed for a second straight year. If he improves drastically, then I can eat my words.
But based on what I have seen of him this season, he is not the answer to this teams issues at QB. We need a guy that is a reliable game manager/elite QB, and I would not bet a dime that Clausen is that guy. I used to be on the Clausen bandwagon, but his play has dropped me back to Earth.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Glad your chute opened okay.
(Whoops. Don’t need that falling off a wagon.)
Like I’ve been harping for months, if it were there, we’d have seen a glimmer by now. Regardless of supporting cast.
Playing behind the same inept blockers, Moore only allowed himself to be sacked 13 times, vs 30 for Clausen – this compares to 79 pass completions for Moore, 138 for Clausen.
And not even counting Moore’s great numbers from his past years, he threw 5 TD passes, vs just 2 for Clausen.
This isn’t comparing Clausen to a QB on another team, rookie or not, or some rookie from another era – this is apples to apples, Panther in 2010 to Panther in 2010.
Chute opened ok, but I hit kinda hard; it is what it is and I picked a bad day to open a bad chute.
But I digress; I agree that Moore had done and possibly would have done a better job this season had he not been injured. Yet again, I am glad we saw Clausen now, rather than next season and having this as the result. At least we know somewhat that Clausen is/might not be the answer.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Good point.
This year is a sorry waste, and better to be able to evaluate as many moving parts as possible, so the new broom in town can (and will) sweep it all clean.
A new HC can readily study film and see which CBs, OL men, DTs, DEs, and LBs can cut it, and which can’t.
Armanti Edwards is about the only guy on the roster who didn’t get a fair shake to show what he could do.
Armanti Edwards is about the only guy on the roster who didn’t get a fair shake to show what he could do.
+1
Unfortunately that is true. I really hope a new coach doesn’t give up on him. If used properly and coached correctly he could be an invaluable weapon.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
So the fact Moore is a veteran doesn't factor into the fact he has more TD's?
Along with the fact he was playing with a healthy Williams and Wharton?
And you don’t find it disconcerting that Moore’s QB rating is lower than Clausen’s despite starting fewer games and throwing more TD’s?
And you don’t think that the fact Moore was sacked less than Clausen was because he played in far fewer snaps, along with the fact he still had Wharton in the lineup?
AND you’re not impressed that Clausen pulled a veteran move by freezing James Harrison with a pump fake, sliding into a throwing lane, and delivering a pass downfield to a spot where only Mike Goodson could catch it? I believe it was on third down as well.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 24, 2010 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
Between the two of you, that's an interesting point.
With touchdowns out of the picture, Matt Moore played worse than Clausen based on QB rating yet he still managed to throw more TD’s on less attempts. If I had any hope left for the kid, it has just been murdered silently in the night.
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
Moore
also threw less touchdowns to the other team, did he not? really tired of pick 6’s….
Clausen threw 2 pick 6's this season
That equates to 14 points.
Moore thew one pick 6 (San Fran), and 3 other INTs where the ensuing drive the opposing offense scored (3 FG)… that equates to 16 pts.
Seems like a wash
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Seems like comparisons to Moore should be over now, and unless Moore recovers from his surgery (and there was actually some competition between them for the spot next year), it should be over.
By any measure, Clausen has not performed as well as Moore, over their entire body of work, or starts. But the comparison that should be made, in order to evaluate Clausen, is to other young rookie QBs. By comparison to any others in the past (who worked out to be good at their craft) he’s failed to match up.
Since you or anybody else can’t come up with one was equally as bad, the excuse is made for him that it’s not his fault, that it’s the fault of the OL, or the OC, or the WRs. They’ve certainly all contributed to the hard hill he’s had to climb, but, as the saying goes, “It’s no hill for a climber.” Is he were a climber, he’d be higher up that hill by now.
Honestly..
At this point, I’m really getting tired of looking at the nuances. Jimmy just isn’t leading us to victory and, until we consistently win with him @ QB, I’m going to support a change at the position. If that change is for the worse, I’ll support another change. I’ll continue to support this change until we find someone capable of leading our team to victory. Fickle as it may be, I’m tired of incompetent quarterbacks. The writing is on the wall and I’m done scrubbing it with soap.
On an unrelated note, as terrible as this season has been, I can’t believe it’s almost over. Seems like just yesterday James was posting the first MMO of the season and we were all still so optimistic/excited. Ahh, another long off-season, here we come!
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
I'm tired of incompetent play at the QB position too
Honestly, the only reason I’m defending Clausen is that it transcends the Carolina Panthers at this point. We obviously need to find a QB for this team, which is why I hope we’re able to draft Andrew Luck.
That being said, there also needs to be an understanding that winning and losing don’t start and end with the QB position. There are 53 guys on the team and even though QB is the most important nobody is getting it done.
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I totally agree..
I’d like to adjust your last sentence though, just for emphasis…
“There are 53 guys on the team and even though QB is the most important nobody is getting it done.”
Considering this, I think we could blame pretty much anyone we wanted to as to why Clausen, or any other player, looks bad. However, when I see Stewart performing well, and even Goodson having his little break out moment, or Gettis and his one great game, or LaFell starting to put it together, or Charles Johnson turning into a force, or Greg Hardy exhibiting excellent play for a rookie, or Clausen….. Well, I get to that point and honestly can’t think of anything to finish with. That makes me sad. We’re seeing flashes, as faint as some may be, from a lot of guys but no consistency. The only flash I seen from Clausen came against Arizona. Considering it was against Arizona, I’m hesitant to call it a “flash”, maybe more like a firefly zipping around a dark room.
Last week, I said I just wanted a little bit of consistency from Jimmy and I’d consider putting an effort forth to renew my faith in him. We know how that turned out. To be perfectly honest, when it gets down to it, I’m just a Panther fan scorned by our bad play and Jimmy is the target because quarterbacks are supposed to be the face of a franchise.
I’m punching our franchise in the face.
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
by D-Ranged1 on Dec 25, 2010 1:50 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"a firefly zipping around a dark room" is a beautiful analogy.
Rec’d your post for that.
It should be stressed that our running game has stepped up a whole lot in the last 5 games, and that should be making it easier for a QB to complete passes. When we couldn’t gain anything on the ground, the play action had not benefit – now it should have.
Hey now.....stop right there.
Manbearpig is clearly Davidson’s fault.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
I'm totally serial guys
"My everything, or nothing. My everything, or nothing. WE gonna fight, til we can't fight no more. We gonna lie down, and bleed a while. Gonna get up, and fight again." -Tashard Choice
by SouthernPanther on Dec 24, 2010 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
I think Davidson is asking:
“Hey have any of you guys seen my cake? It was about this high and…”
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
+1
This is what is the most annoying thing of all, is Clausenites who refuse to place any blame on him whatsoever. We all know the O-line sucks, we all know the WR’s are doing nothing this year, and we all know the coaching blows. Let that sink in for a moment: yes we know all of those things.
But to say because of those three variables that Clausen is free of any blame is ridiculous. It goes beyond sacks and pressures. There have been many a time when he has had time to throw and he makes errors that, if it were a must win game that hinged on him, would have sunk us and killed our chance at that game.
When something doesn’t work, you try something else. The WR’s will be the same next year, but the coaching and O-line will be drastically different. And a QB who has only one win in 9 games starting is not going to spell confidence for any new coach that will take over in January.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Rosario had his man beat in the EZ.
Any other QB in the league lofts that pass to the corner, letting Rosario run under it for an easy TD. Clausen fires it on a line, where’s it’s easily knocked down by the trailing defender.
Everybody’s got a heaping share of blame for our horrible offensive non-production, and every man on the O-Line, including Gross and Kalil, have allowed more sacks than they can count (I know I gave up enumerating them 6 games ago.) But a QB has got to be productive on the plays he’s allowed to function on. And we don’t have that. Period.
If you’re faced with proving your value, with us very probably exercising our #1 draft choice on another QB, you should do a little better than a Rating of something under 30.
Easily knocked down, since the trajectory was all wrong for the route.
He didn’t even have to jump to knock it down. It needed some air under it. He overthrows Gettis on the go route, and underthrows Rosario on the short corner.
I agree that that was an inaccurate pass.
Considering my “bias” on the subject, I think you can say that’s a fair assesment.
The INT was also overthrown, but considering Clausen actually decided to go downfield and was counting on Gettis to bail him out, I can’t really fault him too much for the play.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 24, 2010 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think it was so much the defender or the trajectory.
Again, I’m a girl who’s only watched football for 2 years, but in that time, I’ve NEVER seen a QB stare down a receiver that blatantly before – in college or NFL.
I mentioned this on the post-game post. Clausen not only stared down Rosario from the second he got the ball in his hands, but gestured so wildly at Rosario that no one looking anywhere on the field could have missed it. I prayed that it was Clausen trying to fake-out the defense and he was suddenly going to pass to someone else.
I have a lot of patience for rookies (or freshmen in college football) and give them a generous curve. But my patience was pushed past its limits on that play. That’s why at that point in the game I was pleading with Fox through my tv to put St. Pierre in then. I know that it’s unlikely he could have produced much more, but that game was just too ugly and embarrassing for me to bear. I know probably a majority of the fanbase wants the Panthers to just lose everything so we can benefit from a #1 pick, but I’m not satisfied for a team to just give up to do that. At least be competitive. Leaving Clausen in, playing like that, wasn’t competitive. It was rolling over.
Even Hasselbeck was recently pulled from a game for playing so poorly.
Sorry, kind of a pessimistic post, but that’s just my opinion on the matter. But in the spirit of the MMO and the fact that it’s now Christmas Day, Merry Christmas everyone! =) And here’s to everyone getting his/her wish for a better Panthers team in 2011 – by any means in which it’s accomplished.
And I know the poor play doesn't all fall on the QB.
But we don’t have many (if any) viable options for switching out any other position on the offense – especially the O-line. Unfortunately, what we’ve got out there on that line is all we’ve got (minus people on the practice squad or any practice squad members recently promoted, and the recent promotees probably would have made the situation worse).
WHOA Ivan...
Never said that Clausen is free of blame! No, not in the slightest sense. And I’m not a Clausenite, so please refrain from calling me one. Please go back and find where I said that, cause I haven’t said that and I won’t. But I don’t believe he’s the sole person to blame. All I’m trying to point out is that he shouldn’t shoulder the entire weight of the blame, when you know, just like you’ve just said above, that other players are largely contributing to the poor play. It just seems that Clausen has become our whipping boy, and I personally don’t think it’s fair.
Would you blame the conductor of a professional grade orchestra/syphmphony solely if he’s working with middle school tromboners, flutists, and other instrumentists if they can’t hold a tune, follow the plan, and be somewhat decent?
Additionally, if
We all know the O-line sucks, we all know the WR’s are doing nothing this year, then how can we continue to place the blame fully on Clausen?? The blame should be on the entire team, or the entire offense. Like BWSmith always says, the QB should never be named the winner or loser, because he in himself doesn’t win/lose the game, but the entire team as a whole wins or loses the game together. Contrary to what many might believe, Clausen didn’t lose this game for us, the team lost it together.
then how can we continue to place the blame fully on Clausen??
Who on here has solely blamed Clausen for this season? Nobody. But the fact that Clausen has done little to change this season makes him a part of the problem not a solution.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
I agree, there's lots of blame to go around when we're 2-14. But...
when the running game started clicking, it had to open up opportunities in the passing game. Granted, the o-line didn’t pass block worth a shit, and blitz pickups were frequently missed. Yet good QBs make plays against pressure. You have to be cool back there, expect to get hit, but get the ball out. Clausen looks as if he’s in Panic mode, not attack mode. So, no, it’s not all his fault, or even mostly his fault. He’s just been about as effective as a Dill Pickle performing his specific responsiblities, and he’s played enough that he should be showing some improvement.
I was thinking that I was drinking too much....so I quit thinking
I'll play both sides here.
From a historical standpoint you need to start Jimmy next year. There has been only a handful of NFL QB’s that have had “Good” Rookie seasons. Look at Terry Bradshaw, Steve Young, Troy Aikman, John Elway, Joe Namath, Joe Theisman, I can throw Peyton Manning in there and the list goes on and on. The point is rookies are almost never good and that I think gives Clausen another shot at it next year to prove himself. I mean its just like a head coach, how can you make a bad team good if your only there for one year? Everything takes time to see if its gonna washout. Also not to mention that is O Line and Recievers aren’t particularly performing well around him.
On the other hand Jimmy hasn’t really showed anything to say he is the Franchise QB as of yet. He hasn’t put up a 200 yard game yet, He only has 2 TD’s and 9 picks. It just doesn’t seem to me like he is improving signifcantly. I know this is his rookie season but as this point he is not a rookie anymore and he needs to show us something that will make us think twice about drafting Luck with the first pick next year. He doesn’t do things he should be doing at this point like stepping up in the pocket to avoid pressure. Some may use the arguement " Well he has no supporting cast" but look at what McCoy and Bradford has been able to do hell even John Skeleton and Tim Tebow are looking better than Clausen. They have far worst receiving cores than we do. Some will say in response to that is “Our playcalling is crap”. Well my response to that is it is up to the players as a whole to execute whatever play is called. I will admit there is nothing Jimmy can do when we call a draw on third and 15 but he can do something when he has to drop back and pass. Some of these things are Jimmy’s fault and some aren’t but I always go by the motto of “IF Delhomme can do it, any other QB can too”.
Overall, I believe its about the expectations of the fan when it comes to QB’s. Some of you will settle for the Trent Dilfer type Qb that hands the ball off and only throws when he has too.(this is what John Fox wants) and some of you will not settle unless our QB is the next Manning, Vick or Brady. and last but not least some of you(like myself) just want a QB like Flacco, Rodgers, or Ryan that can carry the game on his shoulders when he has to and not have to be depended on to much to make a play. We can have our opinions but in the end its all about what the next head coach wants and how does he want to run our offense.
Ya boi Still gettin it in!!
by DT3428 on Dec 24, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
ok
i still think we should use the #1 draft pick for a qb.. what if you are wrong and we loose out on a qb that would fit our team better.. now we stuck with a qb thats not going to get us any where with a hope and praire that the following yr will bring us the opportunity to get a prime qb.. i’m not sayin get ridd of clausen im just sayin get us a back up plan just in case.. if clausen does better next year then we have another young qb we can develope in the process in stead of tossing him to the wolves.. even thought i think if we got luck that clausen would b the 2nd or 3rd behind moore..
by NEXT YEAR PANTHERS PLAYA on Dec 24, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
Moores gonna be gone next year
I hope our depth chart looks more like this
#1. Luck
#2. Clausen
#3. Kitna/Brunnell
Ya boi Still gettin it in!!
great line-up
i’m really feeling that line-up @dt3428.. that would work.. luck is numthing but raw talent.. seen this kidd play.. he is deffinately the kinda qb we need in the carolina.. hopefully the front office will see the same thing we see..
by NEXT YEAR PANTHERS PLAYA on Dec 24, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
Also that will also allow us to have more than two back up plans
if Luck/Clausen fails we turn to Kitna who did a good job with the cowboys this year. This wil enable us to savage our season next year if things go souht early
Ya boi Still gettin it in!!
#3
Haselbeck/Orton. I don’t see Dallas or NY letting their guys get away.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
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I like both these guys... Orton's been shafted in Denver, like many others.
I’d expect several teams are looking at Orton right now.
Hasselbeck’s best option at this point is to become a seasoned backup, which would fit the bill nicely here. He’s got the big game experience, he understands the ups and downs of the position. Sign him up.
I was thinking that I was drinking too much....so I quit thinking
Honestly,
If we got Orton…I would want Luck to sit for at least half the season. Orton was lighting it up early, and has had a great year so far. We would be lucky to have that guy on our team.
"The game of life is a lot like football. You have to tackle your problems, block your fears, and score your points when you get the opportunity." - Lewis Grizzard
by ThePanthers! on Dec 24, 2010 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
I'd take Orton as a starter in a heartbeat.
He’s got game, and has improved every year. Even in his rookie season, he threw 9 TD passes.
http://www.nfl.com/players/kyleorton/profile?id=ORT716150
We should be so lucky.
Surely Orton will start somewhere
With a coaching staff that knows how to use the guy, he is very good.
We'll be lucky if we get him
and the right scheme to complement him. That’s all he is, a scheme QB. You’re seeing that this season now that McDaniels is gone.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 24, 2010 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
I doubt dallas lets Kitna go. He has played pretty good in relief of romo. Definitely one of the better backups in the NFL. I’d be surprised if dallas doesn’t retain him.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
I’d take Kitna in a heartbeat, and I’d give a good look at Garrett as an OC or HC. Kitna’s been solid, and Garrett brought a drastic change in culture to that team as soon as he took the reigns.
But, yeah, Dallas almost certainly won’t be letting either one go.
Almost any vet looks good at this point. =)
Playing Luck initially gains you very little
Stick Clausen in there to start (or even a vet if we get one that is good enough). Assuming we improve our OL, we’ll get to evaluate Clausen when the play calling is (hopefully) better and we don’t have a patchwork OL. If Clausen stinks up the joint, then we know what we have. If he plays well, then we’re in the enviable SD type position of having two marketable QBs (we deal one away).
Luck gets to sit and pick things up, allow the game to slow down, and get his head on straight. By the time Luck is ready to play, our offense has picked up on the new offensive scheme and is all ready to plug in a new piece at QB.
I see very little up side to playing Luck initially other than getting him battered around and a bit of game experience.
+1
Rec’d.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Every extra game we start Jimmy is another game wasted.
Are the Panthers in this to educate a slow learner, or to win games?
That should be the question they ask themselves.
He can’t make plays, he can’t throw TDs, he can’t avoid sacks, he can’t scan the field for open receivers, almost half the time when he sees his primary open, he under- or over-throws it, or it’s behind their stride on a crossing pattern. One more game of this doesn’t matter season, and then clean house, and try to win some games next year.
Wasn't Matt Moore the same slow learner?
You love Moore and he couldn’t even win the backup job until everyone was injured in front of him.
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We agreed we'd revisit the comparison of those 2 after they'd had an equal number of starts, did we not?
I believe you said that after 10 starts, you’d review the matter.
In any event, Moore will be lucky if he ever plays again, so we’re no longer debating which should be the starter here.
And, No, Moore wasn’t a slow learner. His first 8 starts in the league are a matter of record, and achievement. The fact that he was buried on the depth chart is another matter, and one we’ve hashed out sufficiently.
Find my other post on this thread, about the comparisons of the two QBs, from the perspective of each playing behind the same bad OL, etc. If Moore was bad (and he was, this year), Clausen is execrable (how’s that for an iteration?)
Moore did play well in his first few times at bat, but we have to say that he did have a better team around him in those situations, unlike Clausen has now. Is that a free pass for Clausen, hell no. But Moore did have that benefit.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Forget 2009; I am.
Just compare their stats, one to one, with the guys on THIS year’s team.
There’s bad, and there’s worse. (And I still maintain that Moore only played 4 quarters of bad football this year – they were stinkers, but the other time, he was good. Clausen was never good, the best he did was one adequate game, when he stayed out of the way.)
Moore is a template. He may never play again. I’m holding Clausen to a standard of what a winning QB in this league should have shown by now. Let’s say he can’t get under the limbo pole, even held at the starting position.
sadly its a very differnt team in week 15 than what moore started wifh
How many players do we have on ir now? The absense of wharton and deangelo alone makes a huge difference to the ceiling of what this offense is
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by James Dator on Dec 24, 2010 8:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'll disagree here (surprise)
You don’t give up on your rookie QB after one season. You just don’t. Ever. Period. Exclamation point. Bold. Italicized. Caps. Any other form of emphasis you can think of.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 24, 2010 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
He is developing bad habits in his term here. David Carr had a better season statistically and he was sacked a record 76 times and because of that he had some awful habits developed that we all know far to much about. While Clausen hasn’t yet perfected the self-sack, he is developing habits that a QB shouldn’t be learning.
I’d rather have a vet running the show next season than Clausen or (assuming we draft him) Luck. Right now, Clausen is not a starter in the NFL. The state he is in right now he is nothing more than a third string QB. Can that change over time? Perhaps. But as of now, this guy is not an NFL caliber QB.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Agreed.
But wouldn’t Cowboy fans have said the same thing about Troy Aikman after his rookie year? I agree he is nowhere near where he needs to be for us to be successful, he may not reach that point during his tenure with us. But to ditch him after his rookie year would be as stupid as if the Cowboys had done the same with Aikman.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 24, 2010 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
Troy Aikman threw 9 TD passes his first 11 games in the league.
Jimmy Clausen has but 2. There’s no comparison.
Aikman threw 27 more passes than Clausen in his rookie year (this should be about the same after our last game.) However, Aikman gained 373 more yards in those 27 extra passes. That’s what?…about 3.7 football fields?
Had Clausen done that, I’d not be in favor of replacing him. But he hasn’t, so I am.
Any others (who turned out well) that you’d care to bring up? I assure you that you can’t name even one future star who has shown so little.
You would only do it after finally coming to the sad realization that he doesn't have what it takes to succeed in the league, and that he was vastly over-rated by putting up numbers in college that were amassed against efenses that were inferior to those
I realize you haven’t concluded that yet. I have. it’s a matter of evaluative judgment. We both think we’re the better evaluator. Time will tell.
I just hope the next HC isn’t in a position to be stubborn about it.
haha, that's about right.
We both have the assuredness that comes with our age. You because you’re sixty some years old (you don’t have to give an exact number) and have the experience and know how that comes with living that long, me because I’m 16 and have the pride and arrogance that comes at that age. We’ll see whether I can pull off the upset. ;)
And I wouldn’t necessarily have to come to a “sad” realization, just because I don’t want to bail on the ship doesn’t mean I can’t prepare the lifeboats. I might get "Luck"y.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 25, 2010 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
That's a wise assessment of the situation.
I like your style.
Best to you in all things you do in life. You’re a class act.
Thank you.
Same to you. If we ever get that CSR gathering together, I call dibs on the seat to your left.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 26, 2010 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
One sack took 4 full seconds to occur last night. Ouch!
I recall one single play in which JC sidestepped to avoid a rusher (Q1, where he completed to Goodson on the left sideline, a great catch by Goodson.) Other than that, he’s usually a pretty stationary and immobile target.
I’m not sure what the pix above are intended for – is it to portray Clausen as the victim? I would imagine some good research could turn up numerous photos of every other QB looking just as pitiful, as he suffers sacks. It’s what one does with the plays one has time to operate on, that defines the QB’s skill set. JC amasses 72 yards passing last night, on 23 attempts – that averaged a whopping 3.13 yds per attempt.
Hell, why pass at all? Even on a bad night, our rushers average more than that.
The Smith drop was egregious – hit him right in the helmet, after bisecting his hands. Okay, so give Clausen 15 yards on that one; still only averages 3.78 YPA. Ugh.
Pics don't tell the whole story either.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
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And St Louis's offensive line's stats??
Right in the middle of the pack. They give up almost half as many sacks and QB hits as we do. Additionally, Bradford has played twice as many games as Clausen with less hits per game.
What's that got to do with.............
your pictures that “don’t lie”? I (and everyone else here) am aware of how bad our O-line is. Doesn’t make Clausen legit behind a different line. Would he be better? Probably. Has he shown that he’s a sure fire #1? NO. It’s too early to judge anyway. Unfortunately for Clausen, he’s going to have to prove himself to us, as well as another coaching staff. Oh yea, he’s also going to have to compete for the job. Personally, I don’t have a problem with it. He’ll either persevere and be great or he’ll flame out and be a back-up. Either way, I’m not going to feel sorry for him. He will make a damn good living either way.
What ever forum you heard that shit on was lame. They sound like bandwagon, arm chair QB fans to me. Why aren’t you taking it up with them? We’re all well aware of what Clausen is at this point in his career. Some believe, some don’t. Either way, it will all be ok.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Sad
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
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And..
My comment that went something along the lines of..
“You can’t convince me that 31 other teams have picture perfect conditions.”
Which, I’m still not convinced even after reading through that entire post. The use of words such as “almost” further prove my point. Our o-line is not the worst yet our QB is.
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
Smitty is done..
He does not want to hurt himself any more. he would rather be a financial anaylyst/planner and move to california with his family. I think his best is over. He may end up becoming a TO and cause more distractions for a young team.
I often wonder what it would be like to have
someone taking snaps like some of the other teams in this league have. Someone that doesn’t need optimal conditions from the O-line or receivers to make a play. Someone with the ability to put the team on his back and make something happen. Watching Rothlisberger last night reminded me of how big of a difference it can make to have that kind of player. A standard “good” QB for the Steelers last night would have been sacked three or four more times last night (being conservative). Elite QB play like that just really separates a team from the rest of the pack. What’s frightening is I can see Freeman becoming much like Big Ben.
Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays everyone.
And visions of college twat dancing in his head.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
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We are going to need a Franchise QB with the way this division is shaping up to be
We have Ryan, Freeman, Brees. We need to be able to keep up score with them if we wantto win.
Ya boi Still gettin it in!!
by DT3428 on Dec 24, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Fucking A!
+1, Rec’d, and sent to the Observer.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
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You mean you don't think another Jake Delhomme would cut it?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Charles Johnson
Has turned into a force, the only bad thing is we’ll have to pay him a pretty penny to stick around.
Go Panthers
Pay the man.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Interesting stat on Charles Johnson
Shows him as #1 in negative yds produced by his stats.
That’s a formidable number, and is not merely a ratio.
Charles in Charge is a stud!! Pay him.
I was thinking that I was drinking too much....so I quit thinking
That's insane.
I had no idea.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
HAPPY HOLIDAYS !!!!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & HAPPY NEW YEAR to all you guys !!!!!!
I think it’s going to be a LOT more fun being a Panther fan next year.
Jim
Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays!!
I’m hoping Santa brings us the #1 overall pick. We deserve it after what we’ve endured this season.
Have a great one folks! Stay Safe!
Merry Christmas to everyone as well!
Another game, another loss, another day closer to a new season, a fresh start and a step closer to the #1 pick. Another great MMO James. I thank you for taking the time to write them for us. Truth be told, I’d rather read the MMO than go to ESPN or the Charlotte Observer. So thanks again for taking the time to write them.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Merry Christmas Panther fans...
I live in Carolina so I know all to well what you guys are going through. Good game last night, and good luck next year.
Bungles Tank Stupidly like Clockwork
--------
Every night at the club the girls screamed when he'd come
He stood six foot five and weighed 241
Kinda meaty in the face with a head full of stone
And everybody knew you didn't go to the bathroom alone around Big Ben
(Big Ben Big Ben) Big Fat Ben (Big Ben)
--------
"Salt in the wound’s going to be Steelers coming to Jerry’s palace to win yet another SB" - Random Cowboy fan on BTB
Nice MMO, James, this week and always. Thanks for all you do to keep it sane.
My Christmas wish: please Santa, bring us a competitive team next year!
Enjoy the Holiday, everyone. And a Happy and Prosperous and Rewarding New Year to all the fine posters who make this a daily delight.
Thank you James.
I always look forward to reading your MMO article. You are always spot on with your analysis. Thank you for keeping our spirits up thru this awful season. You are greatly appreciated!!! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and all of my CSR compadres.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
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I've been busy and haven't read all the posts from last night's game yet, so this may
have already been mentioned. Did you guys see Stewie’s monstrous stiff-arm on James Farrior? I think it was better than the one on Ronde, and Farrior’s a linebacker. That play made me happy, as did watching CJ and friends bust up Big Bad Ben (he’s a great QB, but a very bad man). I enjoyed watching Hardy get more reps. This guy goes all out every play and never stops.
We all knew going in that we’re not in the same league (figuratively speaking) as the Steelers, so I’m not surprised, or even disappointed by the outcome. I found my nuggets of happy plays midst the overall ass-whupping.
I echo the other posters in my thanks to James for the MMO — best regular feature on any blog I know about. Great stuff all year, James.
I wish Jaxon, all the editors and authors, and all who contribute or just lurk here a very merry Christmas. Stay safe and God Bless us Every One.
I was thinking that I was drinking too much....so I quit thinking
That was a great stiff arm.
It looked kind of like he picked him up a little bit & slammed him with 1 arm.
Steeler's offensive line is stout???
One disagreement. The Steeler’s offensive line is mediocre, at best.
Good LUCK in 2011.
LOL!!!
WHAT?!?! You’re obviously seeing something wrong.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Ben makes them looks worse than they actually are
He holds on to the ball far too long waiting for the receivers to break coverage.
Sometimes he makes them better than they are.
The Panthers aren’t exactly a sack machine, yet they got 3 last night, and had it not been for Ben’s size, strength and determination, it would have been 5 or 6.
I think we're in agreement...
Big Ben causes more sacks by holding on to the ball, but is able to mitigate it somewhat using his size and lumbering mobility.
11th in the NFL in rushing, 17th in the NFL in passing
You don’t put up those numbers with a ‘mediocre at best’ OL.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
Mediocre is "average or ordinary"
17 of 32 is that.
And they’ve allowed 41 sacks, which is 28th worst in the league.
They rank #17 in rushing YPA, 11th in rushes to the left, 19th in rushes up the middle, and 25th in rushes to the right.
I think that pretty much defines mediocre.
(With the numbers I got from NFL Stats, I don’t see where you can rank them #11 in rushing….unless it’s to the left.)
I know what mediocre means... I just don't think 'at best' they're average.
Sack numbers are also entirely misleading because Ben stands in the pocket forever… and his blessing and his curse is extending plays and never throwing it away, which naturally leads to more sacks.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
In what do they rank #11 in rushing, then?
Sacks allowed was only 1 of several rankings I mentioned, and it was worse than mediocre.
What about the rushing numbers? Ben’s taking time has nothing at all to do with those.
The Steelers rate 26th in the league per Stats Inc.
Protection Index which is determined by a proprietary formula that combines the length of a team’s pass attempts combined with penalties by offensive linemen, sacks allowed and quarterback hurries and knockdowns.
by adamwanderer on Dec 24, 2010 11:15 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks for MMO James
great job all year of finding the bright spots in this dreadful year
"My everything, or nothing. My everything, or nothing. WE gonna fight, til we can't fight no more. We gonna lie down, and bleed a while. Gonna get up, and fight again." -Tashard Choice
by SouthernPanther on Dec 24, 2010 1:42 PM EST reply actions
I think NFL Playbook on NFL.com did an excellent job at evaulating the 2010 Panthers
Next years draft we should look at Mike Mayocks Big board becauese this guy is good at evaluating players.
Ya boi Still gettin it in!!
Agreed on Mayock. Just don't listen to Kiper/McShay crapola.
I was thinking that I was drinking too much....so I quit thinking
Enough! Clausen is a wet turd
Why are people defending Clausen? Do you see any touch on his passes? He can’t even complete a simple screen pass. Do you see him step up in the pocket like Sam Bradford? People see something in this kid that simply isn’t there. Don’t think for one second if Luck declares, we won’t draft him because we will. Clausen doesn’t have an NFL future. He’s not a winner, not even in Notre Dame.
Dude?
Don’t be hatin on Christmas Eve. That’s somebody’s baby you’re talking about. Lol.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Really? It only takes 5th grade rhetoric to crack you up?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
C'mon ST..
Why be an ass?
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
Yeah why you got to be an ass for... If I think something is funny I'm going to laugh at it whether im 5 yrs old or 70 yrs old
Laughter is good for the soul
Ya boi Still gettin it in!!
clausen has potential but!!
clausen is one of those qb that has to sit as a backup qb for a while until he is ready to blossom.. he just doesnt hve the talent to take on a starting possition just yet.. now luck on the other hand, from what i’ve seen of him he has everything we need in a starting qb with a lil on hand experience i think he will cme out gunning and fire up our offense to get it rollin in the right direction.. i just dont think clausen is ready for the big leagues yet.. let him develope as a backup for a while then see wht he does..
by NEXT YEAR PANTHERS PLAYA on Dec 24, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry, but when you start a post with calling somebody a "wet turd"
I can’t begin to take anything you say seriously.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
To me, proclaiming Clausen has no NFL future based on 2010 with this iteration of the Panthers equates to saying DeAngelo Williams' career is done based on his performance with this iteration of the Panthers
One is a rookie QB thrust into a starting position before he was clearly able to handle the starting job.
The other is a 27 year old RB who averaged 4.1 ypc, 60 yards per game and had 1 TD on the year.
Outside of Charles Johnson and James Anderson there isn’t really anybody on this team who had a good year.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
Jason Baker had a good year...
Until his leg fell off when he kicked his 8,937th punt against the Seahawks.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
+1
I say give Clausen another year to see how he performs whether or not Luck comes out we still should draft him. Even if Luck doesn’t come out it could be good for the Panthers because if Jimmy’s good next year we could use them picks on some other position of need and if Jimmy sucks then we can take Luck in the 2012 draft. Either way we win in the long run
Ya boi Still gettin it in!!
How many third down plays have we seen clausen tuck the ball, put his head down, and try to run away from pressure
instead of keeping the ball in a throwing position in his hands and keeping his head down-field. Clausen has been the cause of plenty of these sacks. He has to develop better pocket presence. On top of that, what happened to “Clausen is very accurate” coming from the scouts. I have yet to see it…
"My everything, or nothing. My everything, or nothing. WE gonna fight, til we can't fight no more. We gonna lie down, and bleed a while. Gonna get up, and fight again." -Tashard Choice
by SouthernPanther on Dec 24, 2010 6:32 PM EST reply actions
We saw a glimpse of his accuracy last week
I just think it was a whole lot of smoke being blown up our proverbial asses that Clausen would be fine immediately because the offense was familiar.
As for the ‘tuck and run’ again, I agree… but one wonders if he had just tried to make a throw how many would be ill advised interceptions? Gettis giving up on the ball in the air last night kind of gives credence to the notion of receiving corps isn’t trustworthy yet.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
Probably most of them would be ill-advised INTs.
And that’s what he avoids, because he’s afraid to make something positive happen, and because he senses he’s not in a correct position to make such a throw. Other QBs (the good ones) keep their eyes downfield – I think he keeps his on the cheerleaders, in such instances, because that’s where most of such throws end up.
Damn, James, there are, even in this abomination of a season, a lot of things to be optimistic about, and I lauded your MMO to do that. But why keep wasting your optimism on a guy who shows no progress towards becoming what we need? Throw in the towel on this kid. As winning QBs go, he’s short, has small hands, no quick release, no leadership, no decisiveness, no confidence, and no ability to make the big play – even sporadically.
Let’s talk about somebody else.
How do you feel about a hybrid 4-3, 3-4 defense next year?
agree with you on the throw-aways
he’s developing a bad habit by throwing the ball away way too much imo. i’d rather see him take the chances and make a few mistakes so he could learn to make the throw in those situations.
Cat Scratch Reader's not-so-creepy stalker
a.k.a. DeAngelo Williams in the stalking business- agile and elusive
BigD, think about this for a moment.
James is one of the most level headed posters on here. He’s right a majority of the time. He doesn’t let his bias or homerism get in the way of his analysis. If he is keeping up hope that Clausen is a legit QB, maybe, just maybe, you should give some credence to his thoughts. Clausen isn’t afraid to make something positive happen, he’s afraid to make a mistake, and right now that’s what’s hurting him the most. Not any of the hyperbolic reasons you listed. If he would cut loose, he’d make a few more positive plays, but far more negative ones. He just doesn’t have the supporting cast to excel. Any condemnation of his NFL prospects after this year is premature and foolish.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 24, 2010 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
I guess you'll implying I'm foolish, and less level-headed than James...and maybe even a premature evaluator.
As he is an Editor, and a professional blogger, does that mean that this falls into the majority of times that he’s right?
Perhaps you should give some credence to the thoughts I present, as they are backed up by historical facts and comparisons, and a wealth of past experience in the observations of what makes up a future NFL star.
Your distinction of types of fears is interesting. However, I dislike fear as a motivational force, or obstacle to be overcome, in my QBs. Controlled fearlessness would be more attractive.
I'm doing nothing of the sort.
I’m merely stating that someone much closer to you in experience and credibility believes the same thing as I do. Which perhaps lends more credence to the thoughts I present.
And believe me, I love a fearless QB. I was Jake’s biggest supporter at one point on this blog. But coaches don’t necessarily like that in their rookie QB’s, especially when it leads to costly mistakes.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 25, 2010 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
Hell, I thought 'premature evaluator' would get a chuckle.
If a coach doesn’t like that, the coach should be replaced. Faint heart ne’er won fair lady, nor the big game.
You may not have seen the Dallas/Arizona game tonight – only on NFL Network. But both inexperienced rookie QBs (McGee/Dallas, after Kitna went out) and Skelton (who played against us 2 wks ago) took chances in the last few minutes and both came through with big passes for their teams, each supplying come-from-behind, go ahead drives. That’s what I’ve wanted to see from Clausen, but haven’t. Part of the reason’s the coaching you cite, but part’s because he just can’t do it.
Neither of those kids has anywhere near the experience he has, yet they both did it. Something to mull over.
Ooooooooh, I get it now!
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000301308419 - The idiot behind the post.
I watched Dallas/Arizona too.
And I was impressed by both McGee and Skelton (especially Skelton). Were they lighting the world on fire? No, of course not. But if I were a fan of either team, I’d be pretty happy with what I saw based on the fact that McGee had never taken an NFL game snap until tonight, and Skelton’s a 5th round rookie from Fordham in his 3rd start. They both made big plays that made it a crazy and close game (and they both had TD passes!!!). They both had to deal with the idiotic penalties of their teammates. On top of that, Columbo looked like he was a member of the Carolina O-line – so that didn’t do Kitna or McGee any favors on the Dallas side of the equation.
Skelton reminds me of Freeman, Flacco, and Big Ben…in part because of his physical frame that makes him hard to tackle and bring down. But on top of the advantage of size, he’s mobile, he has a strong arm, makes accurate throws the vast majority of the time (even in mid-hit), keeps his composure, and shows some pretty good instincts (seems like he can sense pressure coming from behind and knows when to run, has a good feel for time-management, etc.), and it really feels like the game isn’t too fast for him (I’m sure having a tailored playbook helps some…but still). I would definitely be hopeful with a rookie playing like that in his 3rd start. I was impressed with him during the game against the Panthers (and kind of wanted to play “Let’s switch the rookie QBs” – sorry, but it’s the truth, even though Clausen really played decently in that game).
So we both agree we'd love to see Clausen take more chances.
And we both agree that the coaching has something to do with it. We’ll see how much next year. ;)
by Flowing Willow on Dec 26, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
“He just doesn’t have the supporting cast to excel.”
Charles Johnson doesn’t exactly have a great supporting cast on the defensive line yet he is still showing us glimpses of what he can be with an appropriate line. There are a few examples of players excelling despite the rest of our team.
Clausen is not one of these examples. I don’t want a QB that is going to post a QB rating over 100 every game with a perfect offensive line only to get an injury on the line halfway through the season and, suddenly, our “great” quarterback is back to swimming in the 30’s.
Obviously, we can create any excuse we’d like to make any situation appear as we want it. Before Goodson jump started the running game, our offensive line was playing terribly. Well, Goodson breaks off a few good games and Stewart turns it on, suddenly our line is run blocking well but can’t pass protect to save their lives. At some point I have to wonder if, just maybe, the skill of these “skill players” could perhaps be the culprit? Maybe our QB is making our o-line look bad at pass protection but we can’t admit it because we don’t want to believe our 2nd round pick was a waste, so it’s just that much easier to blame the line and be done with it.
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
The OL have allowed 47 sacks. 2nd worst in the NFL
Clausen’s been sacked 30 times in 12 appearances (2.5 per game)
Moore’s been sacked 13 times in 6 appearances (2.2 per game)
St. Pierre’s been sacked 3 times in 1 appearance (3 per game)
Pike’s been sacked 1 time in 1 appearance (1 per game)
Given that the three players who started all exhibit similar ‘sacked per game’ numbers it seems to show that it’s the line who can’t pas block rather than the QB making them look bad.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
"Appearances" can be deceiving.
Number of appearances can be skewed by only playing as a mop-up for a series or two.
A better measurement might be sacks/drop-backs, defined as sacks taken, divided by (pass attempts + sacks).
By this metric, Clausen is sacked 10.1% of the times that he drops back to pass (30/296). Moore’s ratio was 8.3% (13/156), St. Pierre’s was 9.7% (3/31), and Pike had 7.7% (1/13.)
These aren’t exactly even, as “appearances” would show. Clausen is sacked 22% more often than Moore was. And although one could say Moore had Wharton blocking in more games, Clausen had a superior running game to back him up.
I don’t know where to find similar sack rates for other teams’ QBs, but I’d surmise that 10.1% of your drop-backs is a pretty high number.
I did look up 2 other QBs, whom I know take a lot of sacks: Ben Roethlisberger’s had 32, in 399 drop-backs, a rate of 8.0%, and Jay Cutler, another QB who hangs in the pocket a long time (Mike Martz’ fault, not his) has been sacked 44 times this year, on 412 drop-backs, a rate of 10.7%. That probably puts Clausen as second highest.
In short, our OL makes all our QBs take more sacks than they would with better blocking. But of the bunch, Clausen takes them more often, so part of it’s on him, and his lack of avoidance skills.
And I'm sure none of those additional sacks from Moore to Clausen had anything to do wit the absence of Travelle Wharton?
Wharton was far and away the best OL we had in 2010.
In the five starts with Clausen under center without Wharton the Panthers have allowed 18 sacks (3.6 per game), with Wharton he was sacked 11 times in 4 starts (2.75).
Based on that projection alone Clausen would have been sacked over 5 less times if Wharton was there for all his starts, like Wharton was with Moore under center. I’m sure that difference more than makes up for the 1.8% difference is sacks per snao.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
Okay, I surrender.
You win the debate. You want it more than I do.
Clausen is a demi-God, long-suffering at the hands of an inferior supporting cast.
Merry Christmas to you, James.
And for those of you haven't seen it before, "A Christmas Story" starts again on TBS, at 2PM.
Don’t miss it.
Having had a Red Ryder BB gun as a kid, I can relate.
9 starts... one game with a QB rating over 90, one other with a QB rating over 100
I don’t believe it’s ‘wasted optimism’ to say:
“Here’s a kid who walked onto the most dysfunctional team in the NFL, the worst coached team in the NFL with a patchwork OL and who was forced to start before he ever should have… maybe he does have some semblance of a future.”
I keep hearing the terms ‘scared’ and ‘afraid’ as adjectives to describe Jimmy Clausen. Just this last week Muhsin Muhammad was on WFNZ, and he knows far more about QBs and WRs than any of us will, and perhaps more importantly he’s at every single game in the VIP box so he can see plays develop. Much like I do, Moose still advocates we should take Andrew Luck as a safety valve, but utterly dismissed the notion Clausen is afraid. On the issue of throw aways he said something to the effect of: yes, Jimmy throws it away too early sometimes but the WRs aren’t doing their job to get open.
He also said that based on the 2010 Panthers it is impossible to know what kind of player Jimmy Clausen is. I agree with that 100% this team is so terrible and poorly coached from top to bottom how can people say with such absolute certainty that a player who hasn’t even seen one full season’s worth of starts has no future?
If there we take Andrew Luck… every… single… time, but to say Jimmy Clausen has no future is completely ludicrous to me. It’s not even holding out hope at this point, I just feel it’s common sense.
What some see as a propensity to throw the ball away, others will see as protecting the football. 8 INTs in 9 starts isn’t great…. but it’s less than Bradford at 14 in 14 starts.
Sure, the lack of TDs is a concern… until you look a little further inside the numbers and see that Clausen has only has 85 of his 266 passing attempts on the opponents side of the field (32%). The play calling simply doesn’t call passes on the opponents side.
If we compare this to Matt Moore, Moore had 64 of his 143 attempts on the opponents side of the field (45%).
If we’re going to chastise Clausen for not taking chances then let’s be sure to also chastise play calling that doesn’t give him the opportunity to take chances.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
"a little further inside the numbers..."
“Sure, the lack of TDs is a concern… until you look a little further inside the numbers and see that Clausen has only has 85 of his 266 passing attempts on the opponents side of the field (32%). The play calling simply doesn’t call passes on the opponents side.”
Well now, those raw numbers are totally misleading, though I’m sure you didn’t mean them to be.
Let’s look a little further, even…
Jimmy Clausen did indeed make 85 of his pass attempts from the opponents’ side of the field – yet he only threw 1 single TD from those attempts, a very paltry 1.18%.
Matt Moore did indeed make 64 pass attempts from the opponents’ side of the field – yet he threw 5 TD passes, a ratio of 7.81%.
Is that ability because he’s better, or because the coaches don’t call passes for Clausen that they used to call for Moore? Either way, it doesn’t speak well of Clausen.
You keep bringing up the Moore/Clausen comparisons (I guess to stress that they both played this year for the same poor blocking, poor play-calling team), and so long as you do, I’ll keep showing that Clausen doesn’t have it – no matter what side of the field they’re on, no matter who’s blocking, no matter who’s calling plays, no matter if Moose is in the VIP box making excuses or not.
And on that last note, if Moose says, “Jimmy throws it away too early sometimes but the WRs aren’t doing their job to get open.” – maybe if he didn’t throw it away early, they’d have a chance to get open.
And here are equivalent numbers for some leading QBs , from this year:
Brady: 28 TDs, of 147 attempts form the opponents’ side of the field (14.7%, a phenomenal ratio.)
Rivers: 24/212, or 11.3%
Brees: 29/262, 11.1%
P. Manning: 25/242, 10.3%
Ben R.: 13, 170, 7.6% (a lower ratio than Moore.)
We can make of that what we will, but it again shows that Moore got it done far more often than Clausen has.
Fair enough
What metric do we allow for then with Moore throwing 1.6 INTs per start to Clausen’s 0.875 INT per start?
You keep saying they played on the same team… but they didn’t. Matt Moore had DeAngelo Williams available, and had Travelle Wharton for EVERY start. Those two absences are huge.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
These are niggling mitigating circumstances.
DeAngelo Williams was playing, but the running game has been more productive, since he’s been out, so I can’t see that making a difference, to support Clausen as a more long-suffering toiler. If anything, the increased running game in the last 5 games should have made his life easier.
The difference in INTs is grasping at another straw, and the broom’s about threadbare now, isn’t it? It shows that Moore tried more often to make something happen, whereas Clausen is afraid of something, and at the very least, it’s fear of making a mistake. He’s like Fox, in going for a meaningless FG, to avoid a shutout. Scoring TDs is the name of the game in the NFL, if one wants to win, and isn’t afraid of the dark. INTs are like breaking eggs in an omelet, an unavoidable consequence.
Clausen doesn’t break as many – bu we get no omelet, either.
"INTs are like breaking eggs in an omelet, an unavoidable consequence"
Were you singing the same tune last year with Delhomme?
by Flowing Willow on Dec 25, 2010 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
No, but I would with Moore.
Jake threw more than twice as many INTs as he did TD passes – that’s why he was let go. INTs that come from bold attempts to score, yet don’t outnumber a QBs TDs, are what I was speaking about. Clausen doesn’t try enough TD passes to qualify as a QB, IMO.
Funny story to tell you, since it was a nice holiday, and I’ve had some wine, and I’m feeling loquacious now (and it relates to breaking eggs)…
About 30 years ago, it was my first (late) wife’s birthday, and as we were living in Miami, I thought I’d make a Key Lime Pie for her. Told her to stay out of the kitchen, and I’d do the whole thing, from scratch.
The meringue is the vital part of the pie – you have to beat 3 egg whites (separated from their yolks) to a foamy peak, and this is done best in a copper bowl with a whisk, and a lot of wrist action. (There’s a chemical process between the copper and the albumen that speeds it up.) A cookbook I referred to said to put a pinch of Creme of Tartar to help the process.
I ruined 3 sets of egg whites trying to get them to foam, but they just lay there in the bowl, soggy, and flat. By now the cursing had reached the living room, where my wife was reading. She said, “Bring it in here, and let me see it.” She was a gourmet cook.
I took the copper bowl of slop in to her, and she said, “What’s this green stuff?”
I innocently said, “That’s the tartar sauce. Why?”
I didn’t know Creme of Tartar was a white powder.
That’s my breaking eggs story for the night. True story, I swear.
by bigdavis on Dec 26, 2010 1:19 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
That is a great story bigdavis, I lol’d for real.
My mother-in-law tells a story about key lime pie where she used real limes instead of key limes (there is a huge difference, as I’m sure you know). My father-in-law calls it her “vinegar pie”.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Okay, thanks for clarifying, that made a huge difference.
And hilarious story, I nearly made the same mistake with the tartar powder/sauce mixup. As is, the only cooking mistake I’ve made in my sixteen years that comes even close to that is mixing up the teaspoons and tablespoons when putting salt in the batter for buckwheat waffles. XD
by Flowing Willow on Dec 26, 2010 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
Ouch.
Must’ve led to a spitting contest.
Ptooie!
Rec'd, rec'd, rec'd!
Hahahaha. Excellent story.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000301308419 - The idiot behind the post.
Just did the same.
That post deserves to go green.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 27, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
Here is my problem with Pickles
He has no pocket awareness.
His favorite play is to chuck it out of bounds.
His second favorite play is be the heroes sidekick “Captain check down” throw it to a RB in the flat.
He can not throw the deep ball… he hit on two this year that I recall. So if you are a defensive coordinator the why not stack the box and bring down the safety? He ain’t going to light you up and throw a TD deep if you blitz.
On a good day he will bounce a 8 yard out to the WR or throw it 3 yards behind the TE over the middle.
Our best receiver doesn’t think bunch of him and this is a guy who was a pro-bowl player with Jake which most considered a game manager not an elite QB.
His ratings as a QB better compare with Ryan Leafs career than anyone else.
He holds the ball way to long and can’t make a decision … most will blame the O-Line but if you can count to 4 or 5 the ball should be out of his hands. But on no, the RB in the flat was coverd so there goes his progression route.
I know it doesn’t sound like it but I was really pulling for Pickles. At worst I was hoping he could be a game manager and at best I was hoping for an elite QB that could carry a team. I don’t see either… I see Ryan Leaf several years later. Maybe that is why he fell to us in the 2nd round. It was worth a shot taking him but he hasn’t produced. Only 2 TD’s throwing the ball is a huge red flag to me. So what is the harm in drafting a QB with our first pick? At worst you give Pickles some competition for the starting role and if he shows us something he hasn’t so far, he starts and hopefully lights hte NFL on fire. You only get so many shots at what several scouts have called the obvious number 1 pick in Luck if he comes out, so why not roll the dice again and draft the kid?
by Jp_here on Dec 24, 2010 8:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Looking at those photo's of Clausen
makes me say “Make a decision Clausen… just make a decision”. I’m not sure who on this post said it first but he holds on to the ball far to long. I guess he want the wideouts to be REALLY open before he throws.
I like Clausen’s moxy but dang man… we have to go in another direction with this position.
Here's the thing about the Clausen imo
As bad as Clausen’s been this season, O-line had a lot to do with his development (or the lack there of). Also our dominant running game was suppose to help Clausen develop this season, but even that’s been inconsistent.. mainly due to the coach’s inability to create half-decent plays.
Here’s my thing.. there are many factors that hindered JC’s development in his rookie year (including his injury and so on), and we could make all the excuses in the world about his performance this year, but Luck may be too good to pass up on with the first pick.. plus, I don’t think we’d be having this discussion if our running game was dominant enough to carry us through the season, despite JC’s performance this season.
I know there still are JC faithfuls out there, so I just wanted to point out that it’s not that JC’s a horrible QB after his rookie, but we may not have the supporting cast to help develop JC as a solid QB. I know that sounds ridiculous, but to me, any team can beat us with our current lineup, even with smitty and double trouble if they were to put 8 men in the box every time. We would simply go 3-and-out, and we’ll start passing as soon as we start losing. We simply aren’t maximizing all of the weapons we have on offense, and I feel that drafting Luck would be a good change of direction for this organization.
I know that we got burned by Steelers passing game on Thursday, but It’s hard to blame the D too much when they’re coming right back in after a 3-and-out every time… can’t think of a CB I would want with the first overall pick.
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"but we may not have the supporting cast to help develop JC as a solid QB"
i guess what i’m trying to say is that we need leadership at that position who can maximize the talents we have on the field.. not the other away around.
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All I can do is quote my boss..
A die-hard Pittsburgh fan that has been awaiting this moment all year, I surely expected a huge dose of salt to be thrown on my wounds as I arrived at work today. Instead, I got…
“That first drive kind of scared me. It would’ve been a hell of a game if Clausen was a real quarterback.”
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
Wasn't as bad as I expected..
He actually gave our defense props.
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
Here's Clausen's problem
It is third down. A pass play is called.
You have had the ball for about 2 seconds. Pressure is coming, you do not have much more time.
Do you:
A) Throw the ball before the receivers have gotten open
[quote]Stop throwing into coverage! Your trajectories are all wrong! Damn it JC![/quote]
B) Hold on to the ball for another second to let receivers get open
[quote]Stop holding on to the ball! Get rid of it already![/quote]
C) Throw the ball to a receiver who will promptly either drop the pass or give up on the route
[quote]Come on rookie, learn to throw! A better throw and that’s a catch! Stop missing receivers![/quote]
D) Throw a perfect pass that’s caught & run in for a touchdown
[quote]NOOOOOOOOOO if we win this game we can’t draft Luck #1 what are you doing Jimmy![/quote]
Before the season..
The Clausen vs. Moore argument was strong and, honestly, I do believe there were more people riding the Clausen Wagon than the one for Moore. Any reputation Clausen has at this point in time (such as not being able to do anything right, as is being referenced by your post, unless I’ve misinterpreted) has come entirely from the performances he has given us this year.
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
I noted in the Dallas/Arizona game tonight, both inexperienced rookie QBs came through, big time.
McGee and Skelton each threw big-time clutch passes to drive their teams for go-ahead, come-from-behind scores, when it counted.
Neither has the experience or ‘pedigree’ that Clausen has, and neither has a top OL or running game, and both had defenses keyed to stop their passing, with time running out for each. Yet each got it done.
Their fans have something to look forward to next year.
Interesting..
McGee, in the first in-game action of his career, posted a 102.8 QB rating. Skelton, in his 4th game and 3rd start, posted an 82.6, with a 62.7 on the season. Both performed better than Clausen has despite having less in-game experience combined. I could write off McGee’s 102 performance as going against the Cardinals but then I’d also have to do the same for Jimmy’s 107. I just can’t find any sugar to put on it. I dumped the whole bag and it slid right off. It doesn’t make me happy at all to think a 5th round pick is out-performing our 2nd on an equally terrible team.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000301308419 - The idiot behind the post.
Collectively having Miles Austin, Jason Witten and Larry Fitzgerald doesn't hurt those young guys.
Having our #1 receiver being in the top 5 in the NFL in drops really does hurt our QBs.
Those aforementioned receivers are putting up great numbers in spite of their poor QB play, our receivers don’t.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
All of those players are good.
But I just had to add that Fitzgerald only had 1 catch tonight. One. Skelton did that with less elite/experienced receivers (including rookies Max Komar and Andre Roberts – with Roberts making a catch for a TD).
Did you actually see the game, or are you just re-excusing Clausen out of habit?
McGee threw a beautiful TD pass, deep down the field to take the late lead for Dallas. It was just a go route, that Austin ran under to catch in stride. It’s exactly the kind of pass I’ve been saying Clausen can’t make, and hasn’t, and because it came in crunch time, by a nobody, it again demonstrates that our QB lacks the IT factor.
(It was similar to the pass that another nobody, Brian St. Pierre, was able to score with, and I don’t think he had Austin, Witten, or Fitzgerald to catch it, nor a decent OL to block. Just our bunch of excuses.)
I saw the game, I'm just wondering if you've become accustomed to re-chastising Clausen out of habit.
The 37 yard TD pass you’re referring to was nice, just as Clausen’s 29 yard deep pass to Gettis was nice in the 1st quarter of the Arizona game.
To me, McGee played an almost identical game vs. Arizona that Clausen did- yet those with a propensity to critique Clausen are willing to say McGee’s was impressive and Clausen’s was just okay… and I just don’t understand why.
6 of McGee’s 11 completions went for 5 yards or less. Curious he gets called ‘getting it done’ and Clausen gets called ‘playing scared’.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
And to save people some time....
Only 3 of Clausen’s 13 completions went for 5 yards or less.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
Stephen McGee has also been in the league a while longer.
Although this is his first start.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 26, 2010 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
To be clear..
I don’t believe McGee was impressive at all. I was just commenting on his good game. For whatever reason, I believe the Cardinals secondary has fallen off hard. I don’t follow them so I don’t know what the cause of this decline is. They went from keeping decent QB’s in the 60’s to shutting down Orton with, I believe, a 27 to giving up 100+ ratings to a rookie and a guy that had never taken a snap in a game before. McGee’s performance diminishes Clausen’s just a bit, to me, because I’m not ready to declare McGee the next big thing.
I’m still of the same opinion that Clausen has done nothing worthy of securing his job as our starting quarterback. He hasn’t been competent and I don’t really know why we’re ok with this. If we enter next season with Clausen as our #1 and no competition, I fear breaking .500 is but a pipe dream.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000301308419 - The idiot behind the post.
I’m still of the same opinion that Clausen has done nothing worthy of securing his job as our starting quarterback. He hasn’t been competent and I don’t really know why we’re ok with this. If we enter next season with Clausen as our #1 and no competition, I fear breaking .500 is but a pipe dream.
To be clear on my end I agree with this statement 100%. What I am arguing is this certainty some have that Clausen will never be a good NFL QB, or never have a future. He hasn’t done nearly enough to enter 2011 un-contested, and of course we need to get competition either through the draft or via free agency, but I think it’s way too early to definitively say he has no future.
I think those satisfied with what they’ve seen of Clausen have blinders on for one reason or another, just as those who think he has no future have blinders on.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
by James Dator on Dec 27, 2010 7:14 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The only thing I can add to that is..
Rec!
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000301308419 - The idiot behind the post.
That is it!!!
It’s official…. Clausen Sucks! We need to go in a different direction. Here is my late Christmas wish that Luck comes out and we get him!
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