Is it up to the Carolina Panthers whether DeAngelo Williams stays?
by James Dator on Nov 29, 2010 3:15 PM EST
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PrintThus far there has been the firm belief that if DeAngelo Williams is no longer a Carolina Panther in 2011 it will be because of the Carolina Panthers, and the Panthers alone. However, according to beat writer Darin Gantt this may not wholly be the case.
Per Gantt's twitter less than 30 minutes ago:
"DeAngelo Williams said keeping RB coach Jim Skipper would be a factor in his offseason decision-making [...] Essentially, DeAngelo was lobbying for Skipper to stay. Was sending message that keeping the veteran assitant would be an enticement for him [...] DeAngelo loves Skip, trusts him. Whether the new coach would want to keep Skipper would be up to the new coach. [...] The other thing to remember that if Skipper doesn't stay, he's likely to go wherever Fox goes.
This represents the first time we've heard from DeAngelo what he would be looking for in order to remain a Carolina Panther. There is no doubt that DeAngelo Williams has a deep relationship with Jim Skipper, his RB coach who has been with the Carolina Panthers since 2002.
A deeper look at Williams' decision after the jump.
It's been discussed at great length, but it must be reiterated; there is a greater chance a new head coach will clean house rather than retain any of the current coaches. Skipper has been a fantastic RB coach, but it's likely a new guy will like to surround himself with 'his guys'.
This is why I think Williams is at a cross roads. On the one hand he's a loyal, high character, do anything guy and on the other one must wonder if he feels that same loyalty is a two way street. Couple this with the fact the Panthers are in a full rebuilding process and he's just on the right side of 30 as it is and one must wonder if he sees Steve Smith (as brilliant as he is) as a cautionary tale of the amazing player losing good years on a bad team.
That's not to say the Carolina Panthers are going to be a 'bad team' for a long period of time, but the window for a running back is so small and there will be some very good teams who are very close to a championship who may look for his services in 2011; immediately Green Bay and New England spring to mind.
This new twist of Jim Skipper playing a role in his decision coupled with the recent stellar play of third string Mike Goodson add layers to an already complicated situation.
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Funny How Skipper is never mentioned as a HC candidate
What he’s done with backs here has been nothing short of sensational.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
He'd be an interesting candidate for OC....
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
It's EXCEEDINGLY rare...if not completely without precedence...
…that a position coach jumps to head coach. That’s asking a lot of someone…a leap between skill sets of nearly ridiculous proportions. I certainly don’t mean to imply it can’t be done, but it’s the difference between tactical and strategic; tactical is short term goals and gains, dealing with details, whereas strategic is taking multiple tactical scenarios and melding them into a cohesive goal…the gestalt.
That being said, Jim Skipper has OBVIOUSLY accomplished as much as any RB coach in the league, possibly EVER (two 1100 yd backs in one season…turning D-Will into a top-5 3 down back instead of a “change of pace” as was expected of him coming out of Memphis). His tutelage of Williams, Stewart, Goodson, and Sutton is nothing short of astonishing; if we get a new HC, he’d be a fool to dump Skip…a complete fool.
But as bwsmith said, perhaps he’s an interesting OC candidate (and not in the Rush Limbaugh kind of way). I just don’t know enough about him to take a side on THAT issue.
It's becoming more common
Pittsburgh and Tampa Bay have hired former position coaches as head coaches.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
another thing about Skipper is he is the assistant head coach
A new coach may not be absolutely adamant about bringing in his own RB coach seeing what is already in place, but I don’t see Skipper being assistant head coach under the new regime and that may be enough for him to leave with Fox, if he doesn’t already plan on going with him.
Rules and Regulations of the Game: 89, Bottom Line
Why would the Panthers get rid of Skipper in the first place?
Our running backs are doing so great because of him. Why would we shoot ourselves in the foot and get rid of him?
Honestly, I would prefer the Court Jester over John Fox right now. And if keeping Skipper with us keeps one of our star running backs with us, hell, we keep him. And just judging by the results, he seems like he’s a good coach. Plus listen to this.
Coach Skipper.
Coach Jimbo Skipper.
I like the sound of that.
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
Regardless if Skipper stays, its time for D Will to go.
Goodson ran for 100 yards twice behind the same o-line Williams could not for more games. All that work Williams put in at U. of Memphis is starting to take its toll. I appreciate everything that Williams has done, he should’ve had an opportunity to start earlier in his career instead of sitting behind Fumbles Foster. The running game will be fine without him.
"It's a bad day to have a bad day" - Coach John Fox of the Carolina Panthers
He's still just 27 though!
You figure, he still has 2 or 3 years of his prime left. Is it worth breaking up Double Trouble just because Goodson had a couple of 100 yard games? Remember, this isn’t just any running back you’re talking about. We’re talking about a running back who started every game in 08 during our run to the playoffs, scored 20 touchdowns both receiving and rushing, ran for over 1,500 yards with under 300 carries, and didn’t fumble the ball once.
Mike Goodson won’t have a chance to come close to that total this year, but you can’t deny what Williams have done for this team. Next year, when Jeff Otah makes it back and our offensive line is fully healthy. Maybe we grab another OT in the mid-rounds of the draft and Duke Robinson steps up instead of falling on his ass to injury. We could very well have a deep O-Line and have the re-emergence of Double Trouble.
Do we really want to risk our running game not being effective as it was in the past? I think that’s the key question here. Do we want to risk our expectations not being met by a player that hasn’t ever done it before in his career?
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
Nick Goings had 5 straight 100 yard games.
D-Will is an every down back. Goodson is still a complimentary player.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
Exactly, he'd be a great compliment to Stewart
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
ummm...just because I'm THAT guy...
…and have seen it twice in this thread so far, it’s actually “complementary,” unless you’re saying Goodson likes to say positively reinforcing things. ;-)
At the same time, instead of letting D-Will walk (well, I guess he will if he really wants to), I’d rather sign him long term and trade J-Stew for at LEAST a 2nd rounder. Letting D-Will go in free agency gets us a 3rd round pick the following year…at BEST. And I still think he’s top 5 RB material.
There's pros and cons to both Stewart and DeAngelo
If we can get a high pick for Stewart than it should definitely be considered. But like everything else, a new coach could favor one over the other.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
hell no there is not one runningback in the NFL draft
that has more talent than stewart… Stewart is 23 on top of that
Ya boi Still gettin it in!!
We don't need a RB in the draft
One dominant every down back, an emerging talent, and another decent back is plenty. We have way too many problems at other positions to make this a priority.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Nov 30, 2010 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
I agree....
We’ve still got Sutton and Vaughn too. Both of those guys have shown flashes of how good they could become.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Panther fans need to realize having 2 top backs is the exception
NOT the rule. If we’ve learned anything over the past 3 years it’s that they do little to make the entire team consistently dominant.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Nov 30, 2010 4:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think we'd figure out pretty quick how miuch they matter to our success.
If we didn’t have them.
by Flowing Willow on Nov 30, 2010 11:14 PM EST up reply actions
With any run heavy coach.
Harbaugh and Grimm are both run oriented head coaches.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 1, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
Which is what I'd prefer
If you want to be a “Powerhouse” type team, I think you’ve gotta be.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
by ERL on Dec 1, 2010 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
I think one of Double Trouble will be gone.
I’d maybe prefer to keep Williams, he’s probably more durable than Stewart. Plus he was better this season before he got hurt.
by jojoisthemann on Nov 29, 2010 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
Couldn't disagree more
Goodson of 2010 = Matt Moore of 2009 to me. Sure he’s shown he’s capable but I think putting all your eggs in one basket based on their performance at the end of a lost season has proven to work out pretty horribly for us in the very recent past.
How is that putting all your eggs in one basket?
We still have JStew. Even if Goodson blows up, JStew is still there.
+1
Keeping DeAngelo is sort of an injustice to Stewart, who does have his own career to consider.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Has Stewart made it through an entire season without being injured as of yet?
If Stew goes down and Goodson is our man, I don’t trust him. Yes, he’s been fine this year, but so was Matt Moore last year.
This is the first year Stewart has missed a game
Williams is more of a problem in that department. Also, we still have Sutton.
Good point, but Stewart has never been healthy
He’s never even made it through training camp
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I think it's a wash when it comes to durability
Convincing arguments can be made about both of these guys
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Completely Disagree
This is Goodson’s second year. He has shown immense improvemnt. Plus…he can catch the ball. Neither Stew or D Will can catch the ball well…
The best option is to go with D Will and Goodson. Trade Stew for a late 1st round to the Patriots and use that pick for a good DT/DE/CB
by Indian Panther on Nov 30, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
I don't understand why people say Williams or Stewart can't catch...
Williams has 118 receptions for 922 yards over 5 seasons (24 catches for 185 yards per season), Stewart has 31 receptions for 271 yards over 3 seasons (10 catches for 90 yards per season), Goodson has 35 receptions for 271 yards over 2 season (18 catches for 136 yards per season).
The numbers say Williams is our #1 pass catching back.
And for the record
I do like Goodson, I just don’t see any benefit in letting Williams go and replacing him with Goodson. To me Williams is clearly the best back on our team.
by MindMachine on Nov 30, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And are we all forgetting the great relationship they have with each other, and the support they show the other?
Sign D-Will to a back-loaded, incentive laden 4-year contract, and keep the other two.
Whichever one we let go will wind up biting us in the ass.
Get some OL players who can block like Otah and Vincent did last year, and find a FB to replace Failback Fiammetta, and our run game will be just fine.
+10
That’s really been my point all along is that I like all three backs, I just don’t want to see the team let Williams walk just because we think Goodson can play comparably.
Failback! lol
I truly find it unbelievable that after Fiametta’s performance in the early running this year we didn’t go get Hoover back, I can’t imagine it would have taken much to get him.
Personally I find it to be kind of a slap in the face to a guy that sprung many excellent plays from our RBs. I don’t know how much of an impact it really would have had, but if bringing Hoov back would have helped DWill and JStew have more success it would have lightened the load for both Moore and Clausen as well.
Wait what?
Williams can catch, he’s just not used that way. There’s a reason he holds the NCAA all time record for most all purpose yards.
It's pure opinion, but I remember seeing Goodson make many more "tough" catches
And DeAngelo and Stewart both dropping passes that hit them right in the numbers. Maybe I’m wrong, but Goodson just seems like a lesser every down back, but a more versatile football player.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
All our backs have receiving skills.
But Goodson is the best receiver out of the bunch, his hands are more natural. However, like MM said, you don’t become the NCAA leader in all-purpose yardage by not being able to catch. Stewart had some pretty passing highlights coming out of Oregon too.
by Flowing Willow on Nov 30, 2010 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
He's had a couple good games
And DeAngelo has had two straight years of 1100 yards, and an incredible career YPC.
by Smitty89 on Nov 29, 2010 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
There's not enough room for him and Stewart
The biggest issue regardless of which back(s) we keep is finding an o-line and passing game. That will be a new coaches priority… retaining 2 stellar will be low on the list. And it should be, considering how the last 2 years have gone despite having both Stewart and DeAngelo.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
He's also been hurt for significant portions of the past two seasons.
He’s getting older and we can likely expect to see more of this as he ages.
Why is the 18 game schedule not being discussed in the RB situation?
RB is one of the most injury prone positions in the NFL. Hell, we hit 5th and 6th stringers this year by week 7! The days of single back systems are over…single backs like AP and CJ without true #2 threats are relying on pure luck to make it through playoffs and to the SB. One injury and you’re instantly one-dimensional. Based on this and my opinion of Goodson, I think we should do whatever it takes to keep Williams.
Unless the team changes drastically into a pass-first offense in less than a year, I do not see Goodson as a solid #2 back. Goodson is a great pass-catching RB that works well in space, but is not consistent enough between the tackles to take the #2 spot on a run-first team. Stew and Goodson are two wildly different RB types, meaning either the offense has to be very symmetric in play types or one back gets worked to death to fit the scheme, with a rare change-of-pace back taking too few snaps for an 18 game schedule. You can see this identity issue watching the Browns game. I stated in another thread that I think he’s capable of the #1/#2 spot on teams like the Skins and Saints, but even if we transition to a pass-first team, it will take longer than a year.
Based on this news, I really hope we keep the RB coach. He’s done an excellent job here, almost every single RB to hit our roster ends up being a success. I guess we can only hope the new coach thinks the same way. Also, he’s provem to be capable of coaching RBs like Goodson into success, which may be necessary for our new offense.
An excellent point
I’ve seen it called a luxury to have two backs like Williams and Stewart but with the almost inevitable 18 games season upon us it may become much more of a necessity than a luxury.
Something of note, I think Stew is the best #2 back in the NFL. Sure we pay a premium to keep depth in the position, but its a position I feel where depth is necessary.
The golden question: how much more are we really talking about when keeping DT on the roster, in comparison to say, CJ and his nonfactor #2 backup. I doubt there is a huge difference.
Stew is the best #2 back
And he would be the clear-cut starter on almost every other team in the league.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
I think he'd take the lesser of offers, if it meant going to a contender
But I don’t think he would take a lesser offer to stay in Carolina… not with the team potentiall being stripped.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I've missed your pessimism ST. :P
JK :) You are usually more accurate than most of us regarding these things, even if we don’t want to hear it. Welcome back.
by Flowing Willow on Nov 30, 2010 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
Realistically I am not sure D-Will is brought back
Richardson loves him but has taken a firm grasp on contracts before, but the Cats have a ton of money spend however we also have huge holes to fill on the OLine, WR-DEfensive line.
Remember D-Will already has five years in the league and is getting no younger not to say that he is used up not at all but he is gonna want top dollar and do we offer it to D-Will ? Or do we simply fill a couple of holes and role the dice with J. Stew and Goodson, Sutton plus a rookie next season ?
Honestly from a fan’s point of view money should be paided to D-Will, however from a Richardson point of view you have to look at filling other vary glaring holes. QB, WR issues not to mention an aging Gross, and Wharton plus we have not RG and Otah is still a mystery . Backups on the OLine are trash as well.
DE, DT well you just have to look at the stats to see the need on that side on the ball as well.
From a Business standpoint – D Will is offered franchise tag and traded in an ideal world
From a fan standpoint – D-will gets paided and his coach stays.
In the end I fear the Cats go the Business route. Panthers should have no problem franchise tagging and trading Williams b/c the NFL draft and Free agent crop with out a totally free D-Will in it is nothing special at all. M. Ingram is the only back in the draft worth of a 1-4th round selection.
Go Panthers.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Nov 29, 2010 5:12 PM EST reply actions
From a business stand point
They have lost a good amount of fan support due to business decisions this year.
I am not one them, but I see a lot of Panther’s fans hanging this season on the ‘money saving tactics of the organization’. These same fans have also watched a fan favorite in Julius Peppers walk for no compensation. I don’t know about other fans, but Williams is one of my favorite players and I am already hesitant to buy a jersey given the uncertainty of his status with the team.
I don’t think it would be the greatest move of the organization business-wise to let another fan favorite walk from the team after this season. At some point the organization needs to sell tickets and merchandise too and letting all of our fan favorites walk (Smith can’t have too many seasons left in him either) can’t be good for selling merchandise and tickets.
Funny
at the beginning of the year I think the general opinion was that our O-line was a strength of this team. I sure thought it was.
Now, it looks like one of the more pressing needs that will have to be addressed this off season.
Here’s hoping they return to dominance, I like a meaty O-line and the reputation that comes along with it.
by GoodOl'NorthState on Nov 29, 2010 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
I wish
we could pick an’ choose coaches.
Davidson, see ya.
Meeks, Skipper, stick around for a bit.
by GoodOl'NorthState on Nov 29, 2010 5:51 PM EST reply actions
Maybe Meeks gets a shot at HC?
I’ve mentioned this before. But if JR is uncertain about the future, then Meeks might be a good, cheap option in the meantime.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
It's difficult to know what will happen with Skipper or DLo
Just like a lot of questions about the future of this team, a lot of it depends the next head coach. Also, D-Lo didn’t exactly say if Skipper goes he goes, he just said that he would factor that in to the decision, money can always sway his decision back this way.
I do distinctly remember an interview Hurney gave foxsports 730am in the offseason (someone posted here at CSR) when asked if one (of Double Trouble) should be traded to help fill weaker areas of the team and Hurney was pretty emphatic in stating that he had no intentions of trading any RB they had, that they were very comfortable with this group and felt that they can improve the weaknesses of the team without weakening the strengths.
1-10 could have changed his point of view but but that’s what he was saying in July/August.
Rules and Regulations of the Game: 89, Bottom Line
Most of these people will go where the money is.
They can say this and that about what they’d prefer in order to stay, but the fact is once they see the zeros behind that dollar sign, they’ll follow them like a baby to candy. If they want Williams to stay, they better be prepared to shell out the cash, plain and simple.
stuff 'bout stuff.
Doesn’t what DeAngelo is saying directly refute that?
The money is going to be numerous places, but it seems for Williams, having Skipper here is a serious selling point.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
If I thought Carolina might be the one to shell out the most cash for me ...
… I’d make requests about what personnel should stay too, just so I like the situation I’d be in; or, maybe that really is his biggest desire. When the offer sheets are sitting right in front of him though, I imagine it’ll be a different story.
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Nov 29, 2010 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
James, I've got a special request for you...
I greatly respect your knowledge on cap space and contracts.
In my uninformed take on things, I think JR went cheap this year because of uncertainties with 2011, the CBA, and a possible lockout. I don’t think he’s frugal with contracts by nature. If you see that basic assumption differently, correct me right off the bat.
If we make the assumptions that there’ll be uninterrupted play in 2011 and a new CBA worked out……
Do you think it’s financially possible for the Panthers to have their cake and eat it, too?
That is, could JR feasibly keep Double Trouble and Goodson, plus Kalil, TDavis, and whoever else is a “nucleus player,” plus sign the #1 draft choice, if we qualify for it and want it, plus have enough $ left to fill holes on our OL and DL from FA, or secondary rounds of the draft?
There are so many posts here about doing it one way or the other, signing one guy and letting another walk, that I wanted your take on whether a trove of riches is available to keep everything of value we have, and pay for needed replacements.
Yes.
But that isn’t as fun as jettisoning off people (playing virtual GM). And I’m not trying to be condescending, I do it too, because, well, it’s…fun.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
Not to steal James's thunder but I can answer some of this.
We have $70 million already tied up in contracts and the cap is likely to be $130 to $140 million at the least. So let’s say that we can spend $70 next year.
Here’s a little known fact… Williams is making $9 million this year. That is right up there among the top of the league in RBs. I would say that Williams would command at least $9 million a year, if not more than that. I would say at least $10 million a year, which puts him among some of the highest paid backs in the league. Let’s assume that $10 million per year number over 5 years then.
As far as Linebackers go, it’s going to be tricky. Davis is coming off surgery and Anderson is having a break out year. Let’s assume we pay both of them like Lance Briggs was paid back in 2008. That comes to roughly $6 million per year on a 6 year contract, which drops off significantly after this year (from $6.695 million down to $3.9 million). All of that represents a drop in roster bonus. Let’s assume though that we pay Anderson and Davis each about $6 million per year for the next 5 years.
I’ll be honest, I have absolutely no idea how much Centers get paid. I know they aren’t paid nearly as much as Tackles, but that’s about it. He won’t be making the $10 million per year that Gross makes, that’s for certain.
So of the $70 million we would have to spend with a $140 million cap, with the numbers I described above we would be looking at having spent close to $22 million on Davis, Anderson, and Williams. Those are likely the biggest chunks we’ll see spent on our own free agents and it leaves us with $48 million to pursue other teams. It should be noted though that we would still have more money to spend than your average NFL team. The League average is $96 million already tied up in contracts, leaving them with $44 million to spend with the aforementioned cap.
As far as what we can spend that on… it really depends on how much of this they want to devote to new contracts.
If you are correct
I think it would be a no brainer to lock up Williams, Davis and Anderson before this season is even over. Lock em up before they even get to test the waters IMO.
You must remeber that owners are not going to sign a new CBA until the players take less money.
These contract figures you have estimated are based off of recent existing contracts. The reason very few (or none in our case) players are being extended is because the owners know they can get away with paying much less after the new CBA is inked.
These contract figures are out of control, and the owners know it.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
by ERL on Dec 1, 2010 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
I don't know this topic all that well
but with a new rookie payscale and two more games a year, I feel that contract extensions are unlikely to be affected much.
Well
The players found a way last CBA agreement to pull one over on the owners. The percentage of money dived up by the players was 18-30% more than the owners want it to be moving forward. Because of this, contracts in the future (post CBA) will be 18-30% smaller than they have been. I think the players know they have been getting a very fair share for the past several years, and will ultimately have to accept a lower percentage of the total income.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
*CBA agreement*...who doesn't like a bit of redundancy?
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
I love redundancy...
A few of my favorites…
ATM Machine
2 AM in the morning
VIN Number
PIN Number
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
That's not true actually
If what we’re hearing is correct, the answer to the salaries of the NFL players is going to be the 18 game season (22 games total with the preseason). Players aren’t going to take a paycut, but in return they’re going to play 2 more games a season.
Hi guys... stuck in meetings today so I'm playing catch up
Yes, it is feasible, however the $70 million available will likely need to stretch further than just this years FAs and draft picks.
Beason will be due an extension soon, as will Jonathan Stewart and Jeff Otah.
While it’s technically possible to sign both D-Will and then J-Stew to #1 RB money will a new coach want/need that, or will they ask Hurney to spend the money to fill bigger holes with better players?
There are so many questions right now and many of them can’t begin to be answered until we know the philosophy of our new HC.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
Fair answer - thanks.
Just wanted to know if it was feasible, or impossible.
You answered that.
All else is sheer conjecture, and lobbying for one’s favorites. Way too early in the process to ‘know’ anything, and I’m glad you answered in that way.
This team can't get any worse
At this point, any change is good. Breaking up Double Trouble will signify a change in philosophy… Something I’m looking forward to.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Are we sure we know who that is at this point?
This year D-Will and J-Stew are in a dead heat, much like last year.
To me it’s almost getting to the point where it’s “Who complements each other better if you were going to split them apart? Williams and Goodson or Stewart and Goodson?” I tend to think the latter.
Furthermore, the money saved on DeAngelo could be spent to try and lure Jonathan Joseph back to the Carolinas.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
Yup, sure if
Obviously Cincy could franchise him… but it’s unlikely given with their RB situation being so dicey they may need to retain Cedric Benson who’s also a FA.
Furthermore, Darrelle Revis’ deal coupled with Asomugha’s makes the amount of money to franchise a CB INSANE!
I had an idea on CSR radio a few weeks back that we do a straight trade D-Will for Joseph and both get their extensions. They have two #1 CBs and can only afford one, we have two #2 RBs and will only be able to afford one in the future.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
Jospeh is the real deal...
that dude can play corner
by SouthernPanther on Nov 29, 2010 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
Yup
Seriously, if the Panthers did the following:
- Reupped Kalil and Davis
- Let D-Will go
- Let Marshall go
- Signed Joseph
- Signed a DT (Brandon Mebane or Cullen Jenkins)
It wouldn’t matter what we did with the #1 pick. We could take Luck safely and have filled all our gaps. This isn’t a pie in the sky scenario either, it’s very possible.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
i'd want us to sign a starting guard too...
i’m tired of experimental guards trying to fill in at RG. Cullen Jenkins would be great IMO. Who is brandon mebane?
by SouthernPanther on Nov 29, 2010 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
His size is very appealing, 6'1 311 lbs.
plus, looks like he is having a bit of a down year according to his career avgs…so he might be available at a lower price.
by SouthernPanther on Nov 29, 2010 9:12 PM EST up reply actions
completely agree on the CB statement...
…I respect the talent, intelligence, instincts, physical tools, and training of what Revis and Asomugha do. But GEEBUS, they’re just lockdown corners! There job is to take out ONE player on the opposing side! And if they’re playing a running team, their cost-benefit ratio dips even lower.
I know it’s important to take out a team’s best receiving threat, but it’s not so important as to make their salary nearly the equal of a DE who disrupts an ENTIRE offense…or an LT who protects the franchise QB from concussions, or an RB who is the engine (if not the driver) of an offense. I just can’t understand why CB’s get THAT kind money. Yes, they deserve serious compensation, but when you take a look at career longevity and injuries, a good CB does just about as well as any position in the NFL (excessive protection of QB’s notwithstanding).
I don’t know…just ranting without statistical backup. Please proceed about your normal day.
What about if the better back also has higher compensation?
Does that change your perspective on who to keep?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Depends on what compensation we're talking about
It would take a lot for me to be willing to part with Jonathan Stewart given he’s only 23.
If it’s a 1st rounder, sure… let’s talk. But if we’re talking a mid second rounder then I don’t see the value.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
So Stewart solo, is better than DeAngelo and a 2nd?
Not necessarily disagreeing, but that does start to even things for me.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Honestly, I worry about wear and tear on DeAngelo.
If he doesn’t take another carry then between college and the NFL he’s amassed 1,810 carries.
For comparison Shaun Alexander began breaking down at 2,078 carries.
It’s a real concern for me. That we trade away Stewart and go with D-Will only to have age catch up with him two years down the line and we’re left without a true star RB.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
I'm worried about wear and tear on both of them
Stewart on the other hand has never been healthy. So I’m not sure he’s a better answer to our durability issues.
I tend to want to agree with you, but not without examining Stewart’s value first.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Nov 30, 2010 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
Again with the win, lose, or draw...
Ok… its a draw, We have Stewart and Goodson under contract, so if there’s going to be a trade it will come from there. Williams is an up coming free agent who will be offered top dollar by many teams around the league.
We will have the option to franchise him, sign him to a long term contract, or release him with no compensation. It makes no sense to franchise him because the amount of money we’d give him for the franchise lable, we could sign him long term for less. Also Richardson do not want to get back into that ole Julius Peppers situation again. So given the gravity of the situation a long term contract seems more likely. Last choice will be to let him go with no compensation… like I stated before we’ve learned from the Peppers situation.
Williams enjoy’s playing for Carolina and wouldn’t mind staying. Richardson will open up his wallet for this player. This issue was one of the reasons many veteran contracts were cut this season.
Side note: Its truely depressing to hear many fans ready to ship D. Will off to bring in whoever. This guy has been a class act since reporting to the organization. All this stuff about he has too many yards on his legs… I’m not buying, but whatever. I’m to the point where I would pay him before paying Andrew Luck.
Wow! All you resident Charlotteans will probably find this interesting!
Mark Packer is leaving WFNZ radio
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/11/29/1874661/packer-leaves-wfnz.html
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I won’t lie, I listened to Pack on the way home from work everyday… but ‘Primetime’ was lazy, lazy radio.
Seriously, there is no bigger cop-out in sports radio than to do nothing but take calls for 5 hrs and let the masses do your job while you occasionally interject with ‘yays’ or ‘nays’.
The show was most interesting when they had an interview, or Beason rode shotgun and while surprising it isn’t a huge loss. Compare ‘Primetime with the Packman’ to Dan Patrick or Jim Rome’s show and it was night and day.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
Completely agree
I’m far more likely to listen to the morning and early afternoon shows, but then get bored with Pack and switch to NPR :)
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Nov 30, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
It's pretty bad when you.......
squash boredom with NPR.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
So true... Story of my life
But as Chris Rock put everyone falls into 2 categories. You’re either single and lonely or married and bored :)
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Nov 30, 2010 4:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Amen brother...amen to that.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
To answer the post title question....No, it is not up to the Panthers whether Williams stays
What ever leverage Richardson thought he might have this offseason had to dissipate as soon as D-Will went on IR, if he had any left. That’s why teams re-sign their players the year before they expire, because they still have the leverage of the balloon-payment year at the end.
All we have left is Williams good will and what ever informal arrangement Williams and JR might have created previously. But the Panthers seem bound the screw this up and Williams walks. The only way I see it working is if the Panthers make Williams one of the top 3 if not the top paid RB in the league. You see JR doing that with Goodson looking so good?
But you sparked a follow-on post James that I’m about to work on…good stuff.
I forgot to mention...Williams talk about Skipper is not a way for us to keep Williams
he’s simply telling us why he is going to leave. I see a small chance Skipper stays but D-Will could be simply telling his next team ’Hire Skipper and your chances improve!"…;)
Maybe they put Williams on ir to lower his value.
He was hurt last season & missed the last few games. He wasnt doing well this season, & he got hurt this season & went on ir. I dont see any other teams offering him a bundle.
I have a question
Can’t the Panthers place a franchise tag on him like they did other players last year? Like the Panthers would have to pay him 3 mil or another team would have to give us a first round pick if they want him?
No.
You’re thinking restricted free agent tenders.
A Franchise Tag is a 1 year deal that pays the player 120% of their previous salary or the average of the top 5 highest paid players at their position.
If any move needs to be made is to fire ....
Davidson… Yea you guessed it !!! What could it possibly harm to promote him as OC for the rest of the season. Don’t leave it to Fox either. He is gone and will not make the moove until he signs with another team. If we don’t make this guy our OC … Fox will.
I would like to see what he would do if we promoted him to head coach
It would be funny if came out running our Offense like Oregon or something and Clausen actually throws the deep
Ya boi Still gettin it in!!
Simple
Keep him… and I’m from an enemy… one of many, but always had a soft spot for you lot.
Even if you turf Fox, make it part of the head coach deal, and I dont think Fox needs to go either, but a quarterback (well, and not a cheapskate owner) would fix many ills.
There's no question everyone wants to keep in
I don’t think there’s a single person here who believes the Panthers are a better team if we let him walk. Sometimes it’s just not that simple though.
I hope not
I still think if we let him walk he leads the NFL in rushing next year when he’s a featured back on a team.
by MindMachine on Nov 30, 2010 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
Uhmmm... It takes a lot more than one talented back to lead the league in rushing
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Nov 30, 2010 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
Tell that to Chris Johnson of 2009 or Arian Foster of 2010
Foster currently leads the league in rushing yardage and has 1147 yards already this season with 224 attempts.
Other RB’s on the team:
Derrick Ward – 36 Attempts
Steve Slaton – 19 Attempts
I’m just saying if you put Williams on a team where he is featured like a Chris Johnson or Arian Foster I think he leads the league. IMO Deangelo is the best RB in the league.
by MindMachine on Nov 30, 2010 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
I have to agree that he is the best
Letting him walk would be a mistake, plain and simple.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
I get your point... Because he's not splitting carries.
But there’s still something to be said for the work done by the O-line, FB and the passing game to help clear the box… And of course if the staff is too pass happy they’ll limit his touches.
Point being there are many factors.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Nov 30, 2010 4:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No worries dude
I’m just a Williams fan and have this gut feeling that he make us look silly if we let him walk.
We may be a small-market team, and get little media attention, but...
I’d guess we’d be panned across the board if we let him go, at the peak of his game, over $.
Absolutely
Peppers was a different story, the fan base was starting to split on him, where some were saying he takes plays off, some were saying he’s a beast.
But with Williams I highly doubt any Panther fan would say they didn’t want to see him on the team next year for reasons other than the money.
I say pay the man, he’s more than proven he’s worth it.
Yeah but so could a handful of other guys that could be let go
The staff will be willing to let talent walk if it means make us an all around better team. And that’s what letting DWill or JStew go would be.
And this is coming from a Williams fan as well… Just look at my pic :)
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Yeah I noticed that
I see your point as well, I am just hoping they find away to keep all of the players we want (DWill, Davis, Anderson, Kalil) and still fill the holes we need to fill.
I am a huge Thomas Davis fan as well and can also see the reasoning of letting him walk since Connor and Anderson have both proven to be players, but would much rather have Anderson/Beason/Davis. Although linebacker depth is more key than RB at this point I think.
I think James made a great point above when he said not only do we need to sign our key free agents but also need to look at extensions for other guys.
In a perfect world we can keep all of these guys and still have money left over to get some new guys in here too. But as James also pointed out, until we know who is coaching this team and what the 2011 season is shaking out to be all of this is pure speculation at this point.
On the bright side, imagine the headache the teams that chose to take advantage of the uncapped year are going to have this offseason and be glad we aren’t looking at that.
Yes! I'm hoping for your last point
It could be the one bright spot in this wreck of a season.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Damn me - I'm starting to think like Homer again!
I can see the biggest turnaround in the league for us next year, if some things go right.
I’m making one assumption: that JR opens up the purse-strings, and tells Hurney to go build a playoff team.
We’ve already got a nucleus of strong-willed young players, who are building experience (stars seldom show themselves at their brightest until they’ve learned the ropes for a year or two) and have shown they’ve got no quit in them.
I completely agree
I think the Panthers are an attractive team to a new coach with all of the young talent we have with some vets in key spots.
But as you say, hopefully JR lets the team fill the holes that need filling. I would imagine he will without the uncertainty of the CBA (assuming they get their sh!t together) and a new coach on board.
Again i’m not sure how the coach hiring process goes but I can’t imagine trying to bring in a new coach and hand cuff them right off the bat by being cheap.
One thought...
We don’t necessarily need Anderson with Connor in the mix of things as well. If I recall correctly, he was going to compete with Anderson for the start at SLB until Davis went down with an injury.
We need him for depth at the very least
Look how many LB’s we have gone through this year, plus I think Anderson has earned his spot, he’s out performed Beason this year, granted he’s been moved around, but still he’s earned his starting job in my eyes.
I trust Hurney to replenish our LB corp
He’s had a really good record drafting LBs so far. I trust him to keep that going.
Connor would be great trade bait
He’s a young, thumping MLB who can play in either a 3-4 or 4-3. That should have some nice trade value. Part of me would rather see Connor go play somewhere he can flourish in his natural position. If we could trade him somewhere who is thin at LB and flush with an OL, I’d love to see us pull the trigger there.
Darnit James, you closed the MMO thread that turned into a monkey shit fight about QBs, so...
Jimmy Clausen, Andrew Luck, Andrew Luck, Jimmy Clausen, Matt Moore, no not Jake Locker, Jake Delhomme, Fran Tarkenton.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
(you love it)
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
by ERL on Dec 1, 2010 9:56 AM EST up reply actions
Hey, I was (am) as staunch about the guy as you...;-)
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
by ERL on Dec 1, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
the future
As much as I hate to say it this is just the first of a few bad years to come. I can’t help but feel that the DWill has played his last game in Carolina. The emergance of Mike Goodson this season I think all but seals it. I have heard about Green Bays interest in accquiring DeAngelo and expect them to make a heavy push to land him as a rare(at least for Green Bay) freeagent. He will be missed that goes without saying but the Panthers will go on. I hope that Richardson has a plan. I hope that he isn’t looking at cutting the roster salaries down thus turning us into something that resembles the Bucs of the 80’s. For the love of god could we get some field turf our field every year sucks.
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