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Could the Panthers be stigmatized?


I know this is seriously pessimistic, but considering how the season's going, it's a question I have.

 

Can this season lead to the Panthers being stigmatized? Meaning where no player wants to come to the team either through free agency of the draft...

 

Look at Eli Manning... drafted by the Chargers, he says, "Umm... sorry, but no."

Look at Ken Lucas... the Panthers wanted to trade him to the Lions. He says, "Umm... hell no!"

 

Are the Panthers going to be one of those organizations that players don't want to go to? There's going to be a new coaching staff so a new identity so to speak for the team is in the works, but will they be able to attract top free agents? (Assuming Hurney is able to pull the trigger on their contracts and I don't think Richardson will allow him to.)

I don't think they'll be the laughinstock of the NFL but you never know.

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i dont think we'll be stigmatized

unless we suck for the next couple of years i they would be glad to come in and contribute

by shaun_bass on Nov 22, 2010 12:58 PM EST reply actions  

We already are stigmatized

By the media at least. Even when we do well no one gives a crap. But I don’t think we’ll ever be stigmatized like the Lions because Charlotte is actually a nice city. Who the hell wants to live in Detroit?

by EyeSack on Nov 22, 2010 1:24 PM EST reply actions  

Money talks...I don't see it as a problem

the Panthers typically have very short rebuilding times. Two seasons and this team will be fighting for a NFC South title again.

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by Jaxon on Nov 22, 2010 1:41 PM EST reply actions  

Winning cures all.

In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.

by ERL on Nov 22, 2010 2:16 PM EST reply actions  

Money may talk, but the voice we hear isn’t going to come from JR’s wallet. He’s spoken loud and clear… there ain’t no money… cut big contracts and players, cut employees from the stadium, raise ticket prices.

I hope there’s a new CBA to go on by the end of the season… otherwise, Hurney will have to trade the #1 pick in the draft for a pack of lifesavers and a fruit rollup because JR won’t pay a massive contract… unles the kid drafted is signed for 20 years and receives $200.00 guaranteed with the rest of the $50,000 being prorated over the life of the contract with incentive laden escalators…

by scorpion12 on Nov 22, 2010 2:27 PM EST reply actions  

I'm with you on most things, but much of this is conjecture and/or inaccurate

1. Yes, he’s looking to cut player contracts- so are 31 other owners. Just because he’s the mouthpiece doesn’t mean he’s on an island in this situation.

2. The reason he cut the players and tightened the books is so he could preserve jobs at the stadium… not fire more people. Most of BoA stadium’s employees will retain their jobs because of the difficult cuts made even if there is a lockout. Ask people who work for the Bears if they’ll get the same treatment.

3. Yes, ticket prices were raised; but the plan to raise them in 2010 was originally tabled in 2007. It wasn’t a decision that was made overnight, and the Panthers still have the 6th cheapest tickets in the NFL even after the hike.

4. There’s no basis to assume the Panthers will trade back solely to avoid paying a rookie.

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by James Dator on Nov 22, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I’m wondering where this perception of JR being cheap just because of one year of saving money is coming from. Hell, he cut costs this year to get rid of some big money contracts he shouldn’t have made to begin with.

by SlayerGhaleon on Nov 22, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Total rec on that post, James. It really jerks my giblets when people talk about how

“cheap” JR has suddenly become. Your opinion as stated is exactly in line with my own.

I was thinking that I was drinking too much....so I quit thinking

by Rick Bates on Nov 27, 2010 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m cautiously optimistic that JR know exactly what he is doing. The contracts and players we let go this year needed to go to build the team moving forward..

With a new team salary cap and a rookie pay scale in place next year the Panthers should be in a perfect position with a lot of cap space to sign any players they need to fill the gaps in the roster.

 I have a feeling this time next year we may all be singing the praises of JR and his moves this year to set this team up in a great position for the next few years. I hope so anyway. This year has been brutal on the fans.

by sgtx on Nov 23, 2010 8:58 AM EST up reply actions  

This year got the Panthers out of Salary Cap Jail

They had to pay Jake all that extra money to get back under the cap last year. At least by letting him go and paying it all this year, they are over and done with it.

I disagree with the FO decision to cut Hoover and Moose, since the savings weren’t really all that much, and their alternatives were not exactly going to do all that much better.

by panthersnbraves on Nov 24, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

They didn’t cut Moose. His contract ran out.

by SlayerGhaleon on Nov 24, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Remember how they showcased him the end of last season, with all those rushing plays?

They were either advertising him, hoping another team would ask for a trade, or they knew they’d let him go, or both.

Sad way to treat a guy who’d given so much, unselfishly, for so long, and was the unsung reason for our rushing success. I think the error of that move is now evident.

by bigdavis on Dec 1, 2010 9:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Totally agree bigdavis.

We desperately needed Hoover this year, based on what Fiametta has provided us thus far.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace

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by BW Smith on Dec 1, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

+1

and not only from a performance standpoint but also leadership wise. My sense is we desperately lack leadership on the offensive side of the ball.

by paydirt16 on Dec 1, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

I hated that move most of all this offseason. Even if he did get hurt, he’d be there to point out to Fiametta what he was doing wrong.

by Flowing Willow on Dec 1, 2010 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s an awful lot of pointing…. :-)

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace

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by BW Smith on Dec 1, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Gamble is overpaid, but he’s a good player, so it’s somewhat mitigated.

by SlayerGhaleon on Nov 26, 2010 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

#1. Tell that to the Bears… $60Mil+ for Peppers…
Hurney’s being made out to be the bad guy because he’s not receiving the support (as the fans see it) from the Organization.

#2. If this is the case, then the Panthers are a much classier organization than people know and JR’s new heart must be made of gold.

#3. I know ticket prices went up before this season… but with the losing streak, will the go back down? I dont think so.

#4. After they chose not to franchise Peppers again (and I agree with the decision still) they apparently didn’t like the $21Mil paycheck for one player for a season. They’ll almost assuredly have that or one even larger if they draft in the top 5… unless there’s a rookie wage scale.

by scorpion12 on Nov 22, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

On #1: All of Peppers’ money is due in 2010, they used the loophole of no cap to sign players, we used it to shed salary. They want to lower the cap just like every other team.

On #4: There would never be a situation where a rookie would make $21 million in a single season. Even Sam Bradford who is the highest paid rookie in NFL history never makes more than $19 million in a single season, and that was only because they chose to have the entire $17 million signing bonus come in 2011.

Furthermore, there were far greater issues with Peppers than just the money. The Panthers tried to make him the highest paid DE in the NFL…. twice, and were rejected both times.

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by James Dator on Nov 22, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks James for the sane answer.

I remember Peppers turning down both offers and complaining they weren’t high enough.

Didn’t Jamarcus Russell get some insanely high contract?

by scorpion12 on Nov 23, 2010 9:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Russell did get a huge deal

But the #1 overall QB contract has been rising since then:

- Russell: 6 years, $61 million ($31.5 million guaranteed)
- Stafford: 6 years, $72 million ($41.75 million guaranteed)
- Bradford: 6 years, $78 million ($50 million guaranteed)

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by James Dator on Nov 23, 2010 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

And I don’t think JR is willing to pay that. I agree. Implement the rookie wage scale.

by scorpion12 on Nov 23, 2010 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

There's going to be a rookie pay scale

Of that, there is no question. Both the NFLPA and the Owners want it.

by aceofsween on Nov 23, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

But will it be implemented before next season?

by scorpion12 on Nov 24, 2010 8:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, It will be part of the new CBA.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace

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by BW Smith on Nov 24, 2010 8:47 AM EST up reply actions  

On #1: All of Peppers’ money is due in 2010, they used the loophole of no cap to sign players, we used it to shed salary. They want to lower the cap just like every other team.

I thought there were limits on this? Something like only 2/3 of the contract could be front loaded or similar?

by patosan on Nov 27, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

You have to suck for many years in a row to be stigmatized. We’ve had one bad year. Difference.

by SlayerGhaleon on Nov 22, 2010 2:58 PM EST reply actions  

Maybe not too many

The media loves to gloat over anyone whom they feel superior too. Small market teams (especially in the deep south) fit that bill perfectly.

by patosan on Nov 27, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I would hope players would trust the opinion of those people who have actually played here, who have nothing but praise for the organization rather than the media.

by SlayerGhaleon on Nov 27, 2010 7:54 PM EST up reply actions  

It's going to have an effect on our team, don't kid yourself. But it's not going to be a big impact.

If we offer one a free agent a contract that is higher than the rest of the NFL offers him, he’s not going to say.

“I’d like to accept, but LOL Panthers suck LOL!”

This is a business. As long as they’re willing to compete or at least give the general appearance that they wish to compete on a football field, and the team has the money to offer him the contract, the player will usually accept. We may have to put out a bit more money though if we REALLY want to attract a player that is interested more in winning a championship than he is with getting a huge contract.

"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn

by Revshawn on Nov 22, 2010 3:44 PM EST reply actions  

Well, hopefully the organization stays classy and shies away from players seeking a ring and a paycheck. They’ll have a chance to help build the history of the team.

But, is the team (JR) going to be willing to come off of the money to land more talent, skills, heart, leadership, and experience? That’s the question.

by scorpion12 on Nov 22, 2010 3:50 PM EST reply actions  

Free Agent Panthers signings:

Stephen Davis
Jake Delhomme
Ricky Proehl
Ken Lucas
Mike Wahle
Keyshawn Johnson

All of those were immediate starters and some of the were pretty expensive too (Keyshawn and Lucas). The reason we haven’t had any signings in the last few years was because of guys like Jake Delhomme and Julius Peppers who were eating up valuable cap space.

by aceofsween on Nov 22, 2010 4:04 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

How long did we keep Keyshawn? 1 season or 2? Then drafted Nameless Joe Blunder who didn’t pan out…

Yeah, the rest contributed but they were expensive for their production… and they weren’t marquee players and were on the downside of their careers…

At least no one mentioned Sean Gilbert…

by scorpion12 on Nov 23, 2010 9:42 AM EST up reply actions  

That's the point...

All of those players were expensive (with the exception of maybe Jake his first year). That shows that the Panthers ARE willing to spend money when they need to. This year is the exception, not the norm.

by aceofsween on Nov 23, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re right. I know I’m over reacting and everything’s going to be fine. Within the next 2 years, I think the Panthers will excel under their new head coach and everything comes together. NFC Champs!

From seeing Atlanta and TB rise from their obscurity, and the Saints as well, the NFC South is going to be the conference that no other team will want to play because they’ll almost assuredly lose…

by scorpion12 on Nov 24, 2010 8:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Why would we be stigmatized???

We’ve got a lot of talent that is underperforming or injured. With a couple of additions, we could be right back into the competitive ring. Additionally, who knows what potential Free Agents or Draftees think because we’re going to have an entirely new coaching staff next year, so that could largely influence their decisions, good or bad. I wouldn’t worry about it just yet, bud…

by jkp1516 on Nov 22, 2010 4:00 PM EST reply actions  

Interesting question...I'd say no...

my general impression is it seems like the current players like playing in Charlotte and that’s telling. In cases where $$ issues are equal, some of the intangibles that players look at are things like the coaching philosophy, quality of training, practice and stadium facilities. I can remember FA’s wouldn’t even consider coming to Philly back when the Eagles were playing in the old Vet Stadium.

by paydirt16 on Nov 22, 2010 5:12 PM EST reply actions  

Could you blame them? The Vet was a nightmare for ACL's...

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace

My Panthers Blog | My Twitter Page

by BW Smith on Nov 23, 2010 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes .......

between the bad seams in the turf, crumbling concrete and rat infestations it had to be one of the worst stadiums operating at the time.

by paydirt16 on Nov 23, 2010 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

no... trust me.

I’ve always been a Lions fan, and trust me, if we got Stafford, Ndomukong Suh, Megatron, the Panthers can still get almost anyone they want.

by Lions & Panthers Fan on Nov 23, 2010 12:18 AM EST reply actions  

Suh...

I went to a Big 12 school for a year, and knew of Suh, but I wouldn’t have predicted he’d end up being the NFL rookie beast that he is. Watching the Lions game yesterday, man…I freaking wish we had Suh in Carolina.

As bad as our team looks this season, I think there’s definitely a public/media stigma attached to the Panthers. But I don’t know if that’s true within the NFL business. I think that current and upcoming NFL players will realize that we have some amazing individual players on our roster, and that with a change in the coaching regime, that we really have potential to pull it all together.

If we acquire the right coaches who know how to use the strengths and minimize the weaknesses of their players, we should have a winning team next season. And maybe I’m being too optimistic, but I think that with the right coaching/roster moves, we should have an NFC title within the next 2-4 seasons.

by jamiedk on Nov 26, 2010 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

We have something the other teams don't

The Big Cat (i.e. JR) is highly respected throughout the league. With ownership like that and a good GM, any agent worth their salt will know we won’t be perennial cellar dwellers.

by patosan on Nov 27, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm kind of surprised to say it, but true.

The more I think about it, combined with James’s comments earlier, I’m becoming less angry with JR and Hurney. I still don’t know what in the heck is going on in their heads concerning the QB carousel, but they otherwise seem to have made some smart choices over the years. And I do think that agents and upcoming players will look at the overall picture for the last several years, and that they will realize that. And I think that those agents and players will especially look at the core of young players that we have this season and see that we have a strong foundation to build with over the next few years (even if the W-L record doesn’t reflect it this season).

Not even in the draft, we did get a steal and some good years out of Delhomme – even if he did start declining during the 2008 playoffs. Seriously – the guy was an undrafted no-name with the Saints, played in the European league, then all of a sudden shows up in Carolina and takes the 2003 team to a highly competitive and tight Super Bowl in his first year here.

As to drafts, we’ve had some busts (*cough*a second-round WR from USC with a penchant for DUIs*cough*), just like any other team. But we’ve largely made good decisions in early-round picks and have gotten some steals in later-round picks.

If I’m not mistaken, Hurney became GM in 2002, and I’m guessing that Steve Smith came in a year before that as he was drafted in 2001. But since 2002, we’ve gotten big names who have panned out well – like Peppers (I guess he’s debatable – a diva who shows up like a monster on his own schedule), D-Will, J-Stew, Beason, Kalil, etc.

Anderson was a later-round pick who’s been around for a few years. But all of a sudden when he shows up as a starter – he’s lights-out and has gotten national attention.

Munnerlyn’s continuing to improve, and I think earning a name for himself. In addition to that, he gets national attention for his literal name. Haha. When I first heard his name, I thought he was literally a team captain or that it was some sort of nickname. Nope. =) Just a freaking awesome name.

Goodson was a fourth-rounder who came in as a small guy who physically wasn’t able to get a lot done. Second year, he shows up with more strength, better decision-making, and is making a name for himself as an excellent kick returner, and it’s looking like an RB. The load is normally split between D-Will and J-Stew, and it seemed like Goodson played nearly every down in the last two games (with just the occassional respite in the form of Vaughan).

As to this past year, jury’s still out on Clausen and Armanti Edwards. With Clausen, it’s just plain hard to judge a QB on his rookie season. Most writers, and I think most fans agree, that he has generally shown signs of improvement and that the game is slowing down for him. (I still don’t know why we didn’t get McCoy while he was still available, but we’ll see how the two pan out over time.) As to Armanti Edwards, we just plain haven’t seen enough of him. I’m willing to cut the guy extra slack. Enough players have a hard enough time transitioning from the speed and the skill/size of college play to the NFL when they’re still playing the positions they’ve played for years. Edwards is a project, transitioning to an entirely different position between college and the pros.

Did we get a big-name first-round WR like Dez Bryant (or like Crabtree the year before him)? No. But I think we have something better in our 6th-round steal – Gettis. By all accounts, he’s about the furthest thing from a diva, and he’s quickly come up from a guy who was debatedly questionable as to whether he’d make the 53-man roster to our #2 receiver. Almost every writer, when writing about “things to watch” for the upcoming games, has started to write about Gettis.

And I thought that the team was crazy for drafting LaFell with their 2nd pick when the guy had a reputation for having questionable hands. He showed those questionable hands all through the preseason and the earlier games of the season. Then, it seems like he suddenly showed up one week and learned that he could wrap his hands around the ball instead of letting the ball bounce off of them. And I think LaFell has played well on ST.

Everyone here knows our other 6th-round steals with Hardy and Pugh. Hardy’s the only player to block a punt this season (and for a safety), and apparently now, teams are tempted to stick two guys on him.

Pugh has been a solid ST player (averaging the best kick returns out of the group – although he obviously hasn’t returned as many as Goodson), has stepped in for Martin seemingly without missing a beat, and grabbed an INT in his first start.

While we are the butt of jokes in the media, agents and upcoming players (and free agents), realize that there’s a lot more to a team beyond it’s W-L statistic. I think that they’ll look at the promising young foundation and consider the philosphies of incoming coaches and coordinator(s).

by jamiedk on Nov 28, 2010 10:31 AM EST up reply actions  

It would be nice if Donkey Kong Suh had stayed in until now…

But hey! We’ve got Otah. Maybe when he’s healthy there’ll be a quality backup and production won’t drop when he gets injured again.

by scorpion12 on Nov 23, 2010 9:44 AM EST reply actions  

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