Carolina Panthers' Monday Morning Optimist- 11/22/10
by James Dator on Nov 22, 2010 7:00 AM EST
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PrintGood morning Panther faithful and welcome to the Monday Morning Optimist. Well, that game wasn't quite what I expected... mainly because I didn't think we were going to score a touchdown. Thankfully David Gettis came through blowing by his man allowing for an 88 yard pitch and catch TD; I just realized there was a fair amount of unintended innuendo in that last sentence, my apologies for that.
In the end Brian St. Pierre proved to be a blessing only to those hoping the Ravens would make the -10 spread as he threw back-to-back interception TDs in the fourth quarter. Sure, the aforementioned TD to Gettis was nice, but if you completely take the good and bad plays out of the equation he finished with a comical 12/25, 87 yards. Yet again poor QB play was par for the course for the Carolina Panthers and despite the late interceptions in a sign of complete apathy and malaise head coach John Fox decided to keep rookie Tony Pike on the bench, despite pulling quarterbacks for much smaller sins earlier in the season.
Despite the poor play of the QB it was the running game that for the second week in a row was very impressive. Mike Goodson finished with 120 yards, including a 45 yard run. If Goodson can work more on his ball security he's definitely becoming the kind of player who can make an impact on this team. I think it's unfair to put his success solely on the OL, he's just playing better than DeAngelo Williams or Jonathan Stewart have in any game this season.
In the end it was an ugly 37-13 loss, but there were some bright spots that should be acknowledged, so join me
After the jump...
This is normally the point where I would discuss the coaching decisions, or the game plan- perhaps ridicule some bad moves, but in the end it's difficult to do this when the same missteps are there week in week out. One area that I could say there was improvement in was the first half tendency to work with a shot passing game and running the ball out of passing formations. It worked very well up to the point where Briant St. Pierre was required to make any plays with his arm, and at that point a combination of badly placed passes and bad receiving efforts railroaded any opportunity of decent drives.
Carolina were 1-13 on third down, and 1-8 when St. Pierre was required to throw for a third down. The only conversion he had was the 88 yard TD to Gettis. It was pretty bad.
Most astonishingly were the personnel decisions by the Carolina Panthers. Choosing to activate both David Clowney and Devin Thomas only to attempt a wildcat play with Mike Goodson makes so sense to me. Is Armanti Edwards really that much of a step down from Clowney or Thomas? In the very least you have some options on offense and seeing Edwards active sends a message to the Ravens, after all, it was John Harbaugh who said earlier in the week to Baltimore press when asked about Edwards:
"Yeah, well I remember... Wasn't he the guy that had the win against Michigan? Yeah, pretty talented guy. We don't know much about him, but that is a wild card. We'll probably have to be ready for some wildcat-type stuff."
Nope, no worries John... no wild card in Charlotte. Just bring some sprinkles and we'll supply the vanilla.
I could keep waxing on some more head scratchers regarding the personnel, but in the end it's nothing we haven't said before: "Why isn't Greg Hardy playing more?", "Why isn't player X benched?" etc.
So, without further ado let's get on with the individual player rankings.
Optimsitic
Mike Goodson- Extremely Optimistic: He really is playing fantastic football right now despite the rest of the team being so abysmal. The Ravens are the NFL's 11th best run defense allowing 118 yards per game, and Goodson's 120 alone eclipsed that. Simply put: He's doing more with less against better teams than either member of Double Trouble have been able to in 2010.
Charles Johnson- Extremely Optimistic: Some may remember than in the wake of the Julius Peppers situation I said that Charles Johnson would surprise some people this year and would lessen the void left by Peppers. I think that this season has led people to miss Peppers a little more than he deserves to be, because Johnson with his 7 tackles, 1 sack and QB hit is giving me hope for a rejuvenated Panthers DL in 2011, with our next two players.
Everette Brown- Extremely Optimistic: Brown must have been reading the open thread early when someone asked if it was time to consider him a bust. Brown was aways going to be a slow burn being an undersized 4-3 DE and being young (he's the same age as Jimmy Clausen right now). 4 tackles, 1 sack, 1 FF... he now has two sacks in two weeks and is starting to show glimmers of the dominance we saw in the 2010 preseason.
Greg Hardy- Extremely Optimistic: Another young DE who makes waves whenever he's on the field. 3 tackles, two for a loss and 1 sack. The thing about these three mentioned DEs is that they were performing well against one of the best OLs in the NFL. With some support from some solid DTs through draft and free agency we will be a much improved pass rushing team in 2011.
David Gettis- Extremely Optimistic: Gettis is the future... there... I said it. David Gettis has shown me enough that I believe he's the future of this team at the WR position. That doesn't mean Brandon LaFell and Armanti Edwards aren't in that equation, because they are... but Gettis is the kind of receiver who makes things happen. Yes, it took a well placed throw to result in the TD, but most of that was David Gettis getting open.
Captain Munnerlyn- Extremely Optimistic: One of the few good players in coverage and a great KR gives him props.
Jordan Pugh- Extremely Optimistic: Right now to me he's making a strong case to supplant Charles Godfrey at safety. He plays the ball very well in the air when he plays.
BILLS WIN!- Universally Optimistic: If we're going to be terrible, then we might as well get a reward. Right now we sit alone as the worst in the NFL. The consolation prize is getting to take the best QB, CB, WR or DT in the draft.
Pessimistic
Richard Marshall- Extremely Pessimistic: Honestly, he might as well look for real estate in Pessimist Corner because he's here most weeks. Marshall is consistently losing his man. Sure, he has 8 tackles... but that's because he's always playing catchup.
Devin Thomas- Extremely Pessimistic: Glad he was activated. Two mediocre kick returns and a dropped pass... awesome.
David Clowney- Extremely Pessimistic: Again... why was he active?
Jon Beason- Somewhat Pessimistic: This is extremely unfamiliar territory, but since moving back to the middle Beast has been distinctly mediocre. Yes, he had 9 tackles... but many of those came in easy plays and he's not really making a huge impact.
ST coverage- Somewhat Pessimistic: Allowed 19 yard per KR for three of the four, but the 84 yard return was a backbreaker.
Defensive Tackles- Somewhat Pessimistic: Though they made a play here or there, Nick Hayden and Derek Landri combined for just 6 tackles. They are a big reason the linebackers and secondary are getting stretched so much on running downs.
Overall Outlook
At the time of this writing John Fox has announced that Jimmy Clausen will start provided he's able to against Cleveland. In my mind the goals of 2010 are the same as they were in week 3; learn as much about your young talent as possible and put the new coaches in the best position to evaluate the current guys so they can make informed decisions on draft day. If John Fox can't deal with that then he needs to be fired. I am slightly disappointed that Jake Delhomme wont be playing against us, but at least we should get some fun: Jimmy Clausen v. Colt McCoy media this week.
15% optimistic heading into the game vs. the Browns
This week's music: Listened to 'Muse' while writing this week.
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I think the pessimism on Marshall is somewhat unwarranted.
From what I saw of the game he didn’t play too terribly. But I can’t really disagree with the sentiment too much.
I agree with Willow...
…although he’s not the best cover corner around, he seems to be above average on run support and has been mostly a very sure tackler in our secondary.
Does that mean we should keep him? I don’t know…but I’d rather keep him and draft a different position. The secondary has had some lapses, but we have far greater need in other areas of our team.
So…my question is: do we hope Clausen pans out? Or do we draft Andrew Luck (assuming he comes out)…a big, strong armed, mobile QB (might be a good idea with the sieve our OLine has become)? Personally, I don’t think we should draft a lock down corner with our first pick. I think QB, Oline, or Dline (inerior) are the directions to go.
I've been down on him all year...
He is not good as a cover guy. But to be fair to the whole secondary, the pass rush this year has been practically non-existent. Sometimes the front four remind me of toad frogs tryin to jump up on the curb.
Don't get me wrong, we can upgrade Marshall with Patrick Peterson or even Prince Amukurama.
But assuming Marshall doesn’t demand a ridiculous contract, I see no reason why we should let him go and force ourselves to take a corner. I’d rather we kept our options open between a DT, CB, or WR.
by Flowing Willow on Nov 22, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
Marshall has played himself out of a new contract in my opinion.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Marshall lost a step in the transition to cover-2, in my opinion
I still think he’s good in man coverage or at nickel, but given our defensive scheme and the fact that he was already complaining about contracts last season, I think he’ll see the door unless he accepts less money than he thinks he’s worth.
Excellent as usual
I agree 100% that the remainder of the season should be spent evaluating the young players in a variety of situations and schemes. Based on what I heard in the stands yesterday, I think that’s what the fan base would like to see the remainder of the season.
Clowney? Thomas? St Freakin Pierre? I don’t think so.
It’s time for Fox to dispense with the “he gives us the best chance to win” garbage. That ship has sailed— we ain’t winning.
by CamelCity on Nov 22, 2010 7:31 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
I've not totally bought into the fact Fox is undermining the team...
but I am beginning to think there may be something to this. It seems as if he is just trying to get back at JR and Hurney for not signing any veteran free agents this year. I am very disappointed in the season so far, but if it had to be a rebuilding year lets make it that. Play some young guys and see what they can do. We would have a lot better idea going into next year to see where to spend our (hopefully large amount) of free agent dollars and high draft picks
He’s basically saying to the organization and the fans F.U. If you aren’t going to give me any of the players I wanted to make a run at a decent final year, then I’m not going to help you out next year by playing the young players to give them experience, as well as giving the organization the opportunity to evaluate where these players are at.
Wherever Fox ends up next year I think there is going to be a lot of Panther fans pumped up to beat him whenever we play his team.
If "giving us the best chance to win" is the criteria, then...
Start Hardy in place of Brayton, whose only claim to fame in this game was falling on a fumble. He makes no plays, and Hardy flat does.
And I’ll say again this giving the FB spot in the backfield to Fiammetta, by default, is a waste of a roster spot. I know they take him out a lot, and shift Rosario to a blocking back, or run a single back set, with Goodson – but the I formation, with Fiammetta, is going nowhere. Every other team burns us with throwing flares to TEs, and we rarely try it…oh yeah, we did try it, and Rosario dropped it.
Can We Skip Ahead To Next Season
I missed the game because of a death in the family and had to attend a funeral so I think I saw alot of the same thing. People crying about what was and should have been. Regretting past descitions, Wishing things had turned out different, etc.
IT AIN'T SIZE OF THE DOG IN THE FIGHT BUT THE SIZE OF THE FIGHT IN THE DOG
Love the MMO - Agree in large part.
I agree 100% with everything under the Optimistic column. I truly am beginning to wonder about Double Trouble in comparison to Goodson. I think Goodson’s had two fumbles in his starts (granted, he’s only had two starts), but that’s something that can be worked on. And sometimes, no matter how tight and secure you have that ball, a really good and hard hit (especially coming from below the arm) is going to knock that out. At least Goodson was SUPER fast in recovering it. And I swore that Munnerlyn was going to take that one punt return to the house. Even though he didn’t, he made some super-fast cuts back and forth and shed some low tackles.
I’ve said it many times, but I truly do love almost every single one of our rookies. They are not the problem with this team. Clausen could be better, but I’m giving him a chance for the rest of the season (and Pike looked about the same as Clausen for the one quarter that he has played). Edwards – the jury’s still out on him, too (especially since we’ve barely seen him). Considering how hard it is for most rookies to make the transition to the NFL in the positions that they’ve always played, I think it’s reasonable to give him a break for the learning curve. Based on what I saw today, I soooo would have put in Edwards over Devin Thomas. And Pugh’s been awesome for the time he’s been on the field. The media keeps emphasizing how young our team is. It’s NOT the youth that’s the problem.
Add Kalil to the Pessimistic list as extremely pessimistic. I noticed at least 4 really bad snaps (and that didn’t help St. Pierre’s cause – those bad snaps threw off the timing of those plays). The guy is a Pro Bowler. There’s no excuse for his play yesterday. Especially that snap to Goodson. A 6 foot 7 guy with a great jump and wingspan would have had a hard time catching that ball.
And I have been really disappointed with the D for the last few games – especially the back four (I’ll give Godfrey a little more credit, he’s above the rest and has made a few INTs). They are just not making tackles. Really? You’re in the NFL, and you’ve been in it for several seasons. Go watch you’re film, then go watch film of any of the Top 25 BCS teams. Almost all of those teams are tackling better than our D. At the heart of the matter, it’s really a pretty simple concept. Run as fast as you can to your man, ram into him, wrap your arms around him like a vice, and bring the guy down. If you’re not fast enough, at least make a better dive for him.
Anderson’s been making some plays, but not like he was earlier. But I am really optimistic about Charles Johnson and Greg Hardy. Brown’s looked better the last two games.
St. Pierre. I really felt bad for the guy. No, he didn’t play well. But give the guy a break – he took blame for the INTs in his post-game presser. And the guy put in a ridiculous number of hours trying to learn an offense in just a few days. He really didn’t look worse than anyone else we’ve thrown back under center.
Eh, anyway, there were a few bright spots – mainly our rookies and Munnerlyn. And then there’s the next draft!
Tackling
I’d agree with you on tackling. But, in the 2nd half I’m willing to cut them some slack as our D has usually been on the field for most of the game at that point. Missed tackles will happen when players are tired. It happens to the best.
by adamwanderer on Nov 22, 2010 8:50 AM EST up reply actions
Totally agree with you re: Kalil
The dude was killing St. Pierre with the bad snaps. I mean, don’t get me wrong, it’s not like those bad snaps would have made St. Pierre morph into Peyton Manning had they been good snaps, but still — the guy doesn’t have much of a chance from the start, the least Kalil could do is give him some hope by getting the ball snapped to him properly.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Also agree on Kalil - he caused one of the sacks, too, by whiffing.
Our QB was sacked 3 times, and it was Gross, Kalil and Schwartz allowing them.
The OL blocked for the run plays a lot better this game, and they deserve credit for that, because the Ravens aren’t easy to move. But the pass protection is very erratic, at best. You watch the Colts/Pats game, and you see what a pocket really should be – or highlights of the Saints. I swear Drew Brees would be sub par if he had to throw behind our line. We’ve GOT TO change the personnel on the OL, through the draft or FA, or we’ll never get better. Unfortunately for the QBs on the Panthers roster, they’re the ones who get numerical Rankings, but it’s through the shortcomings of the OL that most of that derives.
I was saying this to a friend yesterday
When we get that #1 overall draft pick, we’d be wise to trade it away to somebody like the Vikings for their 1st and 2nd (who will finish near the bottom as well) so they can get their QB of the future and we can get back into the second round and pick up some offensive lineman with our picks.
Not really sure how drafting works or if that would even be a likely trade of picks, but it would be nice ;)
by MindMachine on Nov 22, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
To get the #1 pick, a team would have to give up their entire draft.
There’s a points system that grades draft picks, and to even come close to the value of a #1 draft pick, a team would have to pull a Ricky Williams type deal to get the #1 pick.
I don’t know if there are any teams willing to do that to get Andrew Luck when they can trade with someone later in the 1st round and get either Jake Locker or Ryan Mallet, or possibly Cam Newton.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Yeah, but that points system was created by a couple of coaches and owners… it’s not officially official or anything. Just a measuring stick that’s used.
I’m just sayin’
But, it is a measuring stick that almost every team uses.
I say almost b/c I don’t know how many teams really use it, but I would guess that a lot of them do.
It really boils down to what Hurney would take for the pick. I mean he could trade it for 2 tickets to a Rod Stewart concert if he wanted to, but I think he would want to get fair compensation for the pick, and if a team wants to get the highest graded QB to come out of college since Peyton Manning, they’re going to have to give up a lot to get him.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
I’ve got a sneaking suspicion that Hurney’s going to hold onto the pick and take the highest rated QB.
It isn’t really that bad of a choice. If there’s a rookie wage scale in place, then there’s nothing to fear and Hurney holds… if there isn’t a wage scale then it gets traded and Luck or Locker or whomever becomes the highest paid QB ever to never take a snap in the NFL. (Then Peyton and Brady get their contracts amended to make up for the difference).
How many WR’s did the Lions take with their top 5 pick? Like 5 in a 5 year period? How’d it finally work for them? It didn’t… until they took a QB.
It may work for us.
To Matt Millen's defense...
They did get Megatron, and a slew of picks from Dallas for Roy Williams with all of those WR picks. But yeah, what a dumbass.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
You can't defend Matt Millen. It's impossible.
He drafted Megatron, yes. But, he also drafted Charles Rogers and Joey Harrington.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
To be fair:
Nobody predicted what would happen with Charles Rodgers. There was a Larry Fitzgerald/Calvin Jonhson-esque hype about him where nobody thought he could be a bust, he was as big a WR ‘lock’ as their was.
Injury and cocaine destroyed that
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by James Dator on Nov 22, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
A.J. Green doesn't have those types of issues.
Short of a catastrophic knee injury, he’s about as much of a lock as you can get. As for Luck, I don’t buy all this “next Peyton Manning” hype. How much pass rush has the guy faced all year? I’ll take Green’s “drug issues” over Luck’s supporting cast.
by Flowing Willow on Nov 22, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
I understand, defending Matt Millon is a bit of an oxymoron, isn't it?
I was just as astonished as anyone by their continued endearment with 6’3" receivers. Shocking too, that a former MLB for the Super Bowl hogging 49ers doesn’t understand that a team is built from the ball, out.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
Well
Given that Brad Childress and the Vikings make about as wise of decisions as John Fox (Randy Moss anyone?) and Favre is almost for sure going to actually retire right now, they desperately need a QB because Tavaris Jackson isn’t the answer. (I live in Vikings country so I know all about it). Maybe we should be talking to the Vikings on draft day.
by MindMachine on Nov 22, 2010 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
and Favre is almost for sure going to actually retire right now…
Yeah, right. He says this same old shit every year. He’ll be back.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Yeah, but I honestly think had they not had the success they had last year he would have retired before this season… he was hoping for one more shot since they were one game away last year. That coupled with this whole sexting thing, I’m pretty sure they guy wishes he would have hung it up before this season started. Anyhow, thats about enough Brett Favre for me (and likely all of you as well). lol
by MindMachine on Nov 22, 2010 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
From what I've heard...
…Andrew Luck is head and shoulders above all other college QB’s right now. Jake Locker is showing a lot of flaws this year, and Cam Newton is a crap shoot; he’s somewhere between Tim Tebow and Josh Freeman, when you consider size, speed, strength, etc. I’m pretty sure he’s considered a reach for the 1st 2 rounds as a QB by most NFL scouts. Ryan Mallet? I think he can have a pretty good NFL career…but a team in need of the best QB in the draft goes with Andrew Luck.
And that looks like we’ll get a 1st and 2nd round pick for our top overall pick, because Luck is only 20 and would require a little time to develop, and that gets redundant with Clausen and Pike on the payroll already). We have enough other needs that I’d be happy with the trade…getting a top flight interior dlineman and a very good olineman (or vice versa).
Whatever…we have no idea who will be our coach and what their philosophy will be…who will be available for trade…who will be interested in OUR “disposable” parts, etc.
I don't like any of the QBs coming out.
Luck has all day to throw. He looks good, but I’d be worried if he didn’t with that pocket.
Newton is a scrambler – those guys are notoriously bad in the pros. He has a lot of athletic ability and he can throw the ball, but he’s a big project. He’ll have to cut down on the running drastically, which will change the throwing lanes he’s seeing in college.
Mallett is ridiculously inaccurate. He has a huuuge arm and he’s a big, big QB, but man he misses lots of easy throws.
Locker is a combination of the above two.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Luck has very good scrambling ability
You see his huge run this weekend?
by Ol' Uncle Munnerlyn on Nov 22, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
Ah, I see why Stanford put up 1bn points against Cal now.
Awful defending.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
That is the same D
that held #1 Oregon to 15 pts and 300 total yards…the same Oregon team that was averaging 60 pts a game…
by adamwanderer on Nov 22, 2010 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Give it up.
You’ll never convince OldhamA that anyone other than Jimmy Clausen is worthy to play QB for the Carolina Panthers.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
I can't explain that, cos that's awful defence right there.
They’re taking shocking angles to Luck.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Personally I thought Beason had a decent game. Nothing pessimistic about it. Not great, but not pessimistic either.
other pessimism not mentioned, in my opinion… Ryan Kalil, was snapping poorly all day.
Rosario was having a tough game with a few dropped balls, though he did make some good blocks.
Play calling was absolutely horrible but was overshadowed because Goodson did so well.
Optimistic, somewhat, … Steve Smith. He was covered well and managed to get open a lot although St. Pierre missed him. He was blocking down the field like a wolverine.
Redzone defense. The D let the Ravens march down the field too much but at least caused turnovers or kept them to 3 point tries.
I think you’re being a little too hard on Thomas right now, but I can see your point I guess.
anyway, that’s just me.
I have to disagree with Beason
being in the pessemistic section. I know Beason hasn’t really come up with the big plays he had last year but have to understand that middleline backers don’t generally have a chance to make alot of Big plays. If they do its mainly because of a tip, or passly thrown ball. From what I saw yesterday Beason was in alot of plays at the LOS. I am just making a case for Beason’s lack of flashy stats.
I do believe it was the right decision to activate Devin Thomas this week. I would rather have him than Armanti Edwards out there at this point. I am more excited about the potienal of Devin Thomas than I am about the potienal of AE just in my opinion. I am not a AE hater but due to his lack of playing time I can’t say that he has made enough progress at receiver.
Also I think some of thoughs sack stats are a little misleading because we didn’t really constant pressure on the QB yesterday and when we did get a sack its was because Flacco held on to the ball to long.
At this point I am about to hop on the draft a CB in the first round fan club because we really need to replace Marshall. He constantly gets beat although he does come up with big plays sometimes but for every 1 big play he has 10 bad plays. I am still thinking we need to draft a QB with the first pick but if Clausen really improves from here on out (I’am hoping he does) then I think the draft goes like this:
1st round: CB
*2nd round: TE
3rd round:DT/QB Locker if he falls this low
4th round:OG
5th round:OT
6th round: DT
7th round: OG
- The second round pick depends on if we trade down. We should if we are going to take a CB with the first pick.
Ya boi Still gettin it in!!
Still pretty sure Locker is going in the first round.
Not that he should.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
At this point (provided Clausen doesn't change my mind)
I want
To pick up one of the FA OT’s and 1 or 2 OG’s, and any decent DT’s if there are any. trade Clausen and clausen for 2nd rounders.
1rst-Luck
2nds- BPA DT and CB
3rd- OL
4th- TE (if the new coach will actually use them… i hope they do)
5th- DT
6th CB OL
7th
I also want to pick up a Veteran qb like McCown or Garcia or someone. Resign D-Will and Stewart.
I would trade Goodson in a heartbeat
Resign Williams and Stewart and what need is there for Goodson?
Those kickoffs aren't going to return themselves. :-)
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
To create mismatches...
There’s a ton of ways to use Goodson, Jstew, and Dwill… If you get creatve, he can be a nightmare for a D.
But, we need a creative OC for that to happen… oh wait! That should happen at the end of the season!
Fire Fox
Dump Gump
by scorpion12 on Nov 23, 2010 8:41 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Oooh... let me add one bonus "Our QB didn't crap his pants- Extremely Optimistic" Unfortunately, Falcons' fans can't say the same this morning
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Deadly… this was on Deadspin this morning as was not photoshopped
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looks like a bad case of mudbutt to me...
Rules and Regulations of the Game: 89, Bottom Line
by John Chilton on Nov 22, 2010 9:34 AM EST up reply actions
ugh....thats grody.
Rules and Regulations of the Game: 89, Bottom Line
by John Chilton on Nov 22, 2010 9:32 AM EST up reply actions
LOL
I guess it’s only a coincidence that he wears #2?
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
I noticed that on passing downs the Ravens would choose to double team Hardy
rather than anyone else…not a DT but our rookie DE.
If you think Jaohnson, Hardy and Brown can get it done and Clausen is the QB of the future then it makes that top pick between a CB and a DT. Both are positions of need.
I've always advocated BPA
Though I believe in Jimmy Clausen and think he has a bright future in the league I would be going against my own principals to think we should go for need over BPA.
If the Panthers wind up with the #1 overall pick and can’t find a partner to trade back with then I think they have to take the best graded player in the draft, and if that’s Andrew Luck… so be it.
Sam Bradford is good, no doubt… but the Rams picked out of need not BPA. When it’s all said and done I feel that Ndamukong Suh will leave more of a mark on the NFL than Bradford.
The thing with top CBs and DTs is that so many of them end up being busts. I’d much rather see the Panthers draft pure BPA and look to fill the corner spot and DT with established players through free agency.
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A study with 1st round picks in years 1989-2003
First Round Picks, By the Numbers:
Players Picked in First Round
OL — 70
DE – 55
CB – 52
WR — 51
LB — 48
DT – 42
RB — 41
QB — 30
S — 19
Reactions: This makes sense, since there are two tackles, two guards, and a center on the offensive line. It’s also clear that LT and DE are the new glamour positions. What’s surprising is safeties, the safest, most-productive position in the study, came off the board a study-low 19 times.
First-Round Bust Percentages
QB — 53 percent
RB — 49 percent
WR — 45 percent
DT — 33 percent
OL — 31 percent
DE — 31 percent
CB — 29 percent
LB — 16 percent
S — 11 percent
Reactions: Akili Smith. Cade McNown. Tim Couch. All three were quarterbacks drafted in the first round in 1999, all three are long gone. The other two QBs picked that year — Daunte Culpepper and Donovan McNabb — have been Pro Bowlers. History says that either Brady Quinn or JaMarcus Russell will fall flat on his face in the NFL. I came into the study feeling wide receiver, with its legion of head cases, would be the riskiest position, and I was wrong.
First-Round Pro Bowl Percentages
(Percentage of players making at least one Pro Bowl)
S — 53 percent
DT — 40 percent
LB — 39 percent
RB — 36 percent
DE — 33 percent
QB — 33 percent
WR — 31 percent
OL — 26 percent
CB — 23 percent
Reactions: Either my metrics were too easy or defensive players make an easier transition into the league. Also, the offensive linemen percentage may be artificially low since O-linemen often receive “lifetime” passes to the Pro Bowl; for instance, Seattle’s Walter Jones made the Pro Bowl for the sixth consecutive season in 2006, although his play clearly slipped from previous seasons.
Taken from an Espn draft study By Ted Kluck from 2007
Found Here
As you can see CBs and DTs have a significantly lower bust percentage than the offense skill positions with around the same number of picks or less.
On XBL-RjTheMetalhead
Playing Battlefield-Bad Company 2 95% of the time.
by RjTheMetalhead on Nov 22, 2010 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
What happens if the same methodology is applied to top 10 picks rather than just 1st rounders?
As you get towards the bottom half of the 1st round you see teams take a lot more flying leaps on QBs based on their potential, rather than their ability. This is what breeds selections like JP Losman. Sometimes they pan out (Josh Freeman) but other times the latter part of the 1st round is where teams are reaching for 2nd round QB talent afraid they’ll get beat out.
Since 2000-2009 here is what I found for top 10 guys. Players marked with asterisks are those I consider busts based on their draft position:
QB:
- Michael Vick
- David Carr*
- Joey Harrington*: No longer in the NFL
- Carson Palmer
- Byron Leftwich*
- Eli Manning
- Philip Rivers
- Alex Smith*
- Vince Young
- Matt Leinart*
- Jamarcus Russell*
- Matt Ryan
- Matthew Stafford
- Mark Sanchez
DT:
- Corey Simon: No longer in the NFL
- Gerard Warren*: No longer in the NFL
- Richard Seymour
- Dewayne Robertson*: No longer in the NFL
- Jonathan Sullivan*: No longer in the NFL
- Kevin Williams
- Amobi Okoye*
- Glenn Dorsey*
- Sedrick Ellis*
- BJ Raji*
CB:
- Quentin Jammer*
- Marcus Trufant*
- DeAngelo Hall
- Dunta Robinson
- Antrel Rolle
- Carlos Rodgers*
The results:
QB- 14 selections, 6 busts: 42.8%
DT- 10 selections, 7 busts: 70%
CB- 6 selections, 3 busts: 50%
If people want to argue whether someone is a bust or not, that’s an open discussion. I’m on the fence about say Quentin Jammer, but given he was a #5 overall pick and most wouldn’t consider him in the top 10 CBs in the NFL I think it’s fair.
Given my personal opinion in the top 10 the quarterback is the safest decision. The propensity for 1st round busts is greatly skewed by late 1st round leaps.
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by James Dator on Nov 22, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
1st of all Vince Young is a bust in my eyes,
To much of a “me” persona that gets him benched 3 or 4 times a year.
Carson Palmer had 3 great seasons but has been average since.
Most 1st round leaps are based on need for than anything else, or a team blindsided by some factor.
Trufant is a solid CB taken for need. Quinton is average but he was taken for a need.
BJ Raji is a 3-4 NT/DE not a exactly a glamor position and was taken for than effect by Dom Capers.
People expect more out of Top 10 CB or DT pick taken than a QB for their first few years, and teams have recently had a slew of good QBs to pick from.
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Playing either Battlefield-Bad Company 2 or NCAA 11.
by RjTheMetalhead on Nov 22, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
Those seem to be justifications as to why these guys have been lackluster… not really explanations why these guys aren’t busts.
Perhaps Vince Young is a bust… but he’s been a probowler and is currently 3rd in the NFL in QB rating.
As for Palmer, he’s a two time probowler and has a career rating of 87.9. I don’t consider him a bust
Seems the moral of what you’re saying is that the guys who have been lackluster have been the players taken for need over BPA. So, given that’s the case doesn’t it make more sense to take an Andrew Luck over a DT or CB?
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by James Dator on Nov 22, 2010 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
The true thing about the Top 10.
You’re a superstar or you’re not. Thats it.
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Playing either Battlefield-Bad Company 2 or NCAA 11.
by RjTheMetalhead on Nov 22, 2010 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
I agree 100%
When you’re taking someone that high in the draft they’re either a top 10 player at their position, or they’re not.
I think if you’re taking someone in the top 5 then in 3 years they MUST be a top 10 player at their position or they’re a bust.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
It's why it's such a curse.
i.e. the pressure is on for you to draft a super star – which is an issue because generally if you’re drafting in the top 10 you do a bad job of evaluating talent.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Indeed.
Teams can’t dig themselves out until they hit on enough players that they make a difference.
It’s terrible for a team like Detroit who seemed to be finally putting it together and now one has to wonder if injury is going to destroy Stafford’s career… but I guess that’s the problem with getting the QB without having any semblance of an OL.
Our OL are pretty bad right now, but when healthy I don’t really worry about them not being able to keep a QB uninjured.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
And some teams draft needs instead of BPA
And those needs where in aren’t the best player.
If you need a QB bad and you have the 1st pick, you’re probably gonna draft the best QB who has mid-1st grade over the actual better players.
A bust is a player so bad that the team cuts/trades/benches him within 3 years of drafting him because hes just that bad, if not that player just wasn’t worth the pick.
And if you take any player in the 1st round you think he is talented enough to start on your team, so thank you using statistics to skew thing your way.
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Playing either Battlefield-Bad Company 2 or NCAA 11.
by RjTheMetalhead on Nov 22, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
What am I skewing?
Using my definition of ‘bust’ as a player who severely under performs their draft position it shows that there are less risks taking a top 10 QB than other positions. That’s not skewing anything statistically, that’s basing my decision on purely empirical data.
We can have the discussion about the rest of the 1st round when we’re not selecting in the top 5.
Teams who consistently draft need over best player in the top half of the 1st round are consistently mediocre, because over the span of years they have populated a roster with lackluster talent solely to fulfill an immediate need, rather than having the foresight to take the best guy knowing they’ll find a role for him later.
In 2005 the Denver Broncos didn’t need Jay Cutler… Jake Plummer was just coming off a great season, but they took him anyway early because he was their BPA… in the end it was the right move.
You can find countless times a team has reached for a player in the top 10 because of need only to be let down:
- Vikings with Troy Williamson in 2005
- Oakland with Michael Huff in 2006
- Jacksonville with Reggie Williams in 2004
The list goes on
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
I dont care anymore.
On XBL-RjTheMetalhead
Playing either Battlefield-Bad Company 2 or NCAA 11.
by RjTheMetalhead on Nov 22, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
Hmmm....
….I agree with most of your selections, but not all.
I wouldn’t consider Quentin Jammer a bust; although he has underperformed for his draft position, but he has been quite serviceable.
RJ (below) also made a great point…3-4 nose tackles never have the stats…but their teammates DO because of them.
And Dorsey has gone from an interior lineman in a 4-3 to a DE in a 3-4. I still think he’s serviceable as well…but no bust; the DLine of the 3-4 just doesn’t have the stats their LB’s do.
by Mr_Sticky on Nov 22, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It'd be interesting to see how WR stacks up.
Is A.J. Green as much of a lock as I think he is?
by Flowing Willow on Nov 22, 2010 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with that
Draft the BPA then trade and get proven playersfor the needs or sign free agents for needs.
yes
I absolutely agree with you on that one. Though, I do think that drafting the BPA becomes tricky when you already have a QB that could turn out to a franchise players. But, yeah I’d probably take Luck if we couldn’t trade up in the draft. I guess we’d trade Clausen then.
Hmm… looks like I was right in my predictions.
#1. Offense failed as usual.
#2. Defense failed because they’re losing heart and are tired of carrying the load.
#3. ST failed.
It’s synonymous. The Panthers sucked in all 3 phases of the game.
I’ll give my caveat here and say I didn’t watch the game. I didn’t bother because, if the head coach doesn’t care, then I don’t care either. I have better things to do with my time than watch the crap on the field.
Now, I’m not going to defend any of the players like I normally would. The NFL’s a business after all and so is being a fan. It’s a business and the Panthers aren’t worth the investment of my eyeballs on the tv screen.
Beason: sucks. He’s moved back to his normal position and hasn’t played it for too many games and is rusty. Too damn bad! You’re a professional. Suck it up and do what you’re paid to.
Kalil: Snap the ball right! You’re a professional. I don’t care WHO’S hands are caressing your nuts! You get them the damn ball like anyone else, exactly the same DAMMIT!
Marshall: Just call it quits. You suck and you’re hurting your team.
Devin Thomas: You were buried on another teams depth chart for a reason. You suck.
David Clowney: You were buried on another teams depth chart for a reason. You suck.
Personnel office: Cut the 2 WR’s that suck (Clowney and Thomas) and sign 2 OL.
That's a very strong opinion of the game, considering that you didn't watch it
I know it’s a HUGE “what if,” but until BSP threw those back-to-back pick 6s, we were right there against one of better teams in the league.
Despite a handful of miscues, I though our defense played pretty well. They were dealing with a short field more often than not, and held Baltimore to a field goal on a few occasions. I thought they played better than last week. Again, 14 of the Ravens’ points were by their defense.
Also, I will defend to the death of me that “Beason sucks” is an oxymoron.
Thank you, San Francisco!
Well, looking at it from a diehard fan point of view, Beason’s just rusty and will return to top form in the next couple of games. He’s only a little off because he was out of position for training camp, preseason, and the first several games of the season. He’ll come back and I don’t think he sucks. Far from it, he’s shown his worth to the team.
On the other hand, how many sacks did the D get yesterday? All season? How did the CB’s play? The safeties? Marshall’s in the pessimist doghouse… again.
The Defense has been playing lights out with no support for the first 6 games of the season excepting the game against SF.
Now that the Oline is actually showing life and putting points on the board it’s starting to come together.
Building on this game, they may, (may) just beat the Browns.
I agree
I’m out of state, and don’t have any kind of package enabling me to watch the game, so I monitor it on the internet, and I’ll tell you, when Gettis had that score and cut it to 7, I was almost getting hopeful. That was when the bottom fell out of course; but think of how close we were with BSP at QB, Goodsen at RB, and all the other setbacks. The Ravens have been picked by many to get to the Super Bowl, so I thought it was a nice effort until the 2 pick sixes.
The team played with pride, and kept it close until then. Let’s keep our heads up and keep supporting out team.
QB help
We need help at the QB position. All i am going to say is please look at Armanti Edwards stats from college. They dont even give him a chance at catback which is why they got him. The John Fox plan must be bench all talent and try to lose. Does the panthers head people not watch the news and see what Dallas did. Look what happened to them. We need the players out back and to get someone in there with a little heart until they can come back..
Thanks and congrats James
You took this beaten and downtrodden fellow fan from 0% optimistic up to about 25% optimistic. I totally agree with your “extremely optimistic” evaluations of Goodson, Hardy, Munnerlyn, Gettis & Pugh. Goodson reminds me of a young Brian Westbrook while Hardy, Gettis & Pugh are proving to be an outstanding trio of 6th round picks.
With that said, I simply can’t stand this “rebuilding limbo” mode we’re stuck in and can’t wait to get this miserable season over with so we can start anew. I know its only the temporary result of the veteran purge combined with a lame duck coaching staff, but I’ve never seen a team in such disarray.
Slight Correction
Carolina were 1-13 on third down, and 0-8 when St. Pierre was required to throw for a third down. That’s right… not a single converted passing third down. It was pretty bad.
The Gettis TD was a 3rd down throw.
Yes it was, 3rd and 12 to be exact
Was watching the highlight while I was reading this.
On XBL-RjTheMetalhead
Playing Battlefield-Bad Company 2 95% of the time.
by RjTheMetalhead on Nov 22, 2010 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
My mistake... it has now been corrected.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
by James Dator on Nov 22, 2010 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
This is not a rebuilding year
Rebuilding is going to start when they get the next coach. He will keep players that he likes, and the rookies that didnt play he will have their college tape to see if he thinks they are trainable or not. I know a lot of fans want to play the rookies so they get experience but after this season they are going to have to relearn from the new coaching staff. Sure playing now would let them see what its like in the nfl speed but practice time is also with the real nfl players.
IF Demolition
is part of rebuilding then it is a rebuilding year. ;-)
by adamwanderer on Nov 22, 2010 11:26 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
haha, nice
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Not exactly Pessimistic, but I've gotta call out james Anderson for this game.
When you’re all over the QB, for a sack, and you let him wriggle free – and later drop an INT in your hands, you shouldn’t be beating your chest when you make a tackle, down 2 TDs.
This is the second game in a row where it looked to me like he’s been reading his press clippings, rather than making it happen.
by bigdavis on Nov 22, 2010 11:20 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I would almost rather the Panthers pick up some help during the offseason in free agency. Known talent with a few years of film on the pro level is easier to assess than 3 or maybe 4 years of college… in my opinion.
But, and this is a serious question, are the Panthers going to be stigmatized like the Lions were? Remember, the Panthers looked at trading a player to them (I think it was Gamble, can’t remember) but he said NO!
Reggie White came to the Panthers from the Packers because God told him to go… maybe the Big Guy needs to speak to some more players like that.
My understanding is that a player can’t say no. If they’re traded, they’re traded.
These guys are full of fire and brimstone when nothing’s on the line, but when their wallet is about to be effected they magically fall into line (see Richard Seymour in Oakland).
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
by James Dator on Nov 22, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
I think it was Ken Lucas.
The deal was contingent on Lucas signing an extension. Or some such thing like that.
by Flowing Willow on Nov 22, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
Close....
…but I think that was Holmgren leaving a voicemail for Reggie while he was still an Eagle: “this is God, I want you to play for the Packers.” Or maybe it was, “I talked to God…he wants you to play for us.”
Brilliant ploy that could have completely backfired on him, had Reggie not had a sense of humor regarding his faith.
We don't need new TEs
King had some growing pains for the first couple of years but lately has been reliable. Rosario too. Barnidge isn’t played up to his potential yet.
King had a horrible game 2 weeks ago, and Rosario seemed to not focus well yesterday but otherwise they both have been consistant. Rosario has been a reliable third down catcher and his blocking is improving.
In the current offensive scheme, the TEs are used more to block anyway. I think Rosario, and maybe even Barnidge have the potential to be as good as any reciever if the offensive coaching and execution improved.
I know they may not be elite but to me it would be a wasted draft pick to get a new TE.
Reliable would imply that they catch the ball when it’s thrown at them… they aren’t exactly doing that 100% of the time.
is anyone doing anything 100% of the time on this team recently?
Rosario has been clutch multiple times this season; it was his turn for a bad day yesterday.
Davidson is sucking 100% of the time, if that counts.
That, and he’s calling terrible plays 100% of the time.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
or anyone for that matter ;)
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
Asked Gantt... and for what it's worth he think's Luck would be the pick:
Luck, I think. Lot of scouts think he’s better than Bradford/Ryan. RT @James_Dator With the #1 pick in the 2011 draft the Panthers select:"
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
The pick makes sense.
It would be kinda cool to get Harbaugh and Luck next year.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
From an offensive standpoint, I really like Harbaugh.
His teams play an NFL style offense, and they can be any number of things…they can man up and smash you out of the “I”, they can spread it out, run play action.
I’m not too familiar with what he likes to do defensively.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
An NFL style offense?
That would be nice.
by MindMachine on Nov 22, 2010 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
Hopefully he likes to defer to those more knowledgeable.
I think the biggest problem with John Fox is getting is fingers too involved in the pie which is the offense.
I read that 2010 was the first season Stanford moved to a 3-4 defense, but did so under the guidance of their DC… so it seems Harbaugh isn’t afraid to let his coordinators do their job and trust in them.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
by James Dator on Nov 22, 2010 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
Hmm
Well, if Stanford’s DC was with the Ravens, then he knows the 4-3 and the 3-4 pretty well. He also knows the “Predator” position that Terrell Suggs mans so effectively.
If “Rurney” (you love it) brings Harbough to Carolina, and JH brings his current DC along, we’ll be looking for a guy who can play that RDE/WLB hybrid position….6’3", 260 who can rush the passer from a 2,3, or 4 point stance, and who can cover the flat or drop into a short zone. Any upcoming FA’s or draft eligibles fit that profile?
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
Rurney ... sounds like Scooby Doo saying Hurney, lol.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Norwood is good is zone coverage
He has experience in a similar role. He has a nose for the ball and is really good at getting in the middle of things when he has the freedom to do so. I don’t know if Brown or Hardy could do it or not. Just reading ERL’s description of the “Predator” positon I thought Norwood immediately.
I heard coverage was his weakest asset?
I am not a Norwood expert or anything, I never really watched him play in college, I’m just a huge fan of his potential. The one knock I always read pre-draft was that he may not be able to cover NFL receivers? If I am not remembering correctly, please correct me because I’d love to hear that I’m wrong. That’s the only reason I haven’t advocated starting him as I have for, say, Greg Hardy.
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
Ah, thanks.
Something about back pedaling, right?
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
Yeah
Poor hips. Has to keep everything in front of him.
by Flowing Willow on Nov 23, 2010 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
They run a 3-4
Fun fact: Stanford’s D-Coordinator worked for the Ravens as an assistant to John Harbaugh.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Shoot...
Lets hire Harbaugh, draft Luck and draft Owen Maracic with a mid rounder.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
by James Dator on Nov 22, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
That would be ideal.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
+1
I’m the furthest thing from a draftnik but I really like the idea of Harbaugh & Luck. A former NFL QB & son of a former NFL QB seems like a nice combo to me. It looks like Luck is the genuine article and has all the tools and leadership qualities we are currently lacking and I love the idea of a big QB with some mobility and is a threat to run .
Two reasons to draft Andrew Luck...
Reason One (thanks adamwanderer)
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
WOW!
Not often you see a QB laying the wood like that to a Safety. Everything I’ve seen or heard about this guy
seems really positive.
Draft it
and pay the price if it doesn’t pan out.
by adamwanderer on Nov 22, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
I garantee he Luck woould be successful under harbough has head coach
Jimmy would be better with Weis over there in Cleveland
Ya boi Still gettin it in!!
Weis is in Kansas City, not Cleveland.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Seifert's team was no where near as talented as this one.
Also, I doubt Seifert gave a public eff you to Richardson with some of his coaching decisions (i.e. – starting Brian St. Pierre instead of Tony Pike).
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Well, talent or not, it only goes so far. Coaching makes the difference.
The 2001 team put points on the board and kept the games fairly close.
This team doesn’t.
Yes, the 2001 team was "competitive."
This team is just predictably terrible.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
I guess firing Fox would be doing him a favor, in JR's mind.
He gotta be thinking “If I gotta deal with the wheels falling off, then that bastard is gonna drive it.”
I get a sense that firing a coach with pay is sometimes exactly what the coach wants. Hell, as Mark Packer says, It should be the goal of every American to be ‘suspended with pay.’
If I’m Chilly, the initial disappointment is quelled by the fact that he is still under contract for millions, and he doesn’t have to change Favre’s diapers anymore.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
But...
At the expense of angering your fan base? I mean yesterday was damn near a home game for the Ravens.
by MindMachine on Nov 22, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Every decision Jerry has made since Feruary has angered his fanbase.
So, yes, Fox will be here until the first week of January, at which time the quest for a new coaching staff will bring sweet smells and renewed optimism that has been lacking for the better part of two years.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
And they’ll hire some cheapass retread from a playoff team that lost in the first round and barely made it there.
But it’s still better than we are.
If the next hire is hugely dissapointing
The fanbase may not come back. That is a risk JR will have to weigh.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
I hope you're not expecting us to make a big name coach hiring.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Depends on what your definition of 'big name' is.
Have I once said Cowher’s or Gruden’s name on this board? No. But hiring the equivalent of Chan Gailey is not going to win this fanbase back over.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
Nope, the next HC for the Panthers should be willing to work for peanuts… cuz that’s all JR’s going to be willing to pay.
I seriously doubt...
…JR hires a coach with head coaching experience in the pros. I see either a coordinator from the pros or a head coach from college…someone we can still low-ball a bit on the contract, because he’s an unknown quantity.
Harbough is our best hope of the latter, but he’s a hot pick these days, which will drive up his asking price.
It still amazes me that we have seen Wade Phillips, Brad Childress and whoever the O Coordinator for the 49ers fired this season, but our front office is letting Davidson and Fox continue coaching.
by MindMachine on Nov 22, 2010 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Might as well stick with them now...
Go 1-15 and get the #1 pick.
No reason to promote an interim HC that won’t be here next year to go 5-11 and blow our chance at getting any player we want out of the draft.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
+1/2
I don’t want to win another game this year’ but I would like to see some players get an opportunity. As long as the Foxcuffs are on we won’t.
I've never seen a +1/2 before, lol.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
+3.1415926535897932384626433832795
by aceofsween on Nov 22, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Nice. Rec'd.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Things that have made me excited for the future...
Gettis, Goodson, Hardy, and Charles Johnson have all made cases to show that they are the real deal this season. Very impressed with all those players.
Particularly with Goodson looking like he could easily be a #2 back in the NFL, and a guy you can rely on for spot duty as a #1, that gives us a lot of flexibility in our dealings with re-signing D-Lo this offseason.
I think Gettis and LaFell will be household names in Carolina for awhile. Gettis has shown even with poor QB play that he can be the future. LaFell has shown flashes and I think with better QB play and another year in the league he will be an excellent #2. Armanti simply hasn’t had a chance to do anything. I get that he is still developing at a WR… but he really should have been active on Sunday. Maybe get a few live plays in there, or at least run some Mountaineer plays. John Fox pisses me off.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
Food for thought… Pat Yasinkas of ESPN speculates that the next HC for the Panthers will be Russ Grim… the OC will be Brian Arian.
One of the faults of Brian Arian? He doesn’t plan for his players strengths and weaknesses and doesn’t make adjustments for the opposing team.
Russ Grim? Maybe.
Brian Arian? Gump 20. sounds like.
It could be worse than it is today. great.
I wouldn’t worry too much.
Pat has made about 10 different predictions of who the next Panthers HC will be
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
No one knows who’s going to be the next HC except for JR right now… and it’s probably someone we least expect.
JR is pretty good at deferring to knowledgeable people
I’m sure there are numerous people who at least know the short list including Danny Morrison and Marty Hurney.
JR isn’t going to hire a HC without working with the people he’s put in control of the football operations.
One thing is certain: He’s not going to take the decision lightly.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
With our OLine underperforming this year...
…and being an old school Skins/Hogs fan, I wouldn’t frown a bit on Russ Grimm as the HC. He played in the exact same kind of system we presently have (grind-it-out running. vertical passing) so bringing in a whole new offensive cast wouldn’t be necessary.
I think he, Harbough, and Brian Schottenheimer are the most likely (okay, my most PREFERRED) candidates.
Hey, Raheem Morris is a free agent after the season’s over… look what he’s done with TB…
Just sayin’.
Raheem Morris isn't going anywhere
He’ll be locked up almost immediately
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
Not sure how to post things other than here...
but, here is a story on nfl.com about Clausen.
Next thing we know, they’ll put him on IR for a concussion.
Told you that was coming.
Fox: “Clausen is the starter….if he’s healthy. Oh btw, he’s probably not going to be healthy.”
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Nice
Yeah, he won’t be ready until next week so better IR him so we can sign another 30 year old practice squad eligible FA QB.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
We could go get Vince Young. Word is he doesn’t want to play for Jeff Fisher any more.
He would be a great fit.
/sarcasm
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
haha!
“Okay, I’ll see y’all muh’ f@ckers next Sunday! Holla!”
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
Word is from
Peter King, Vince is a “9 to 5” player. He doesn’t put in the incredible hours that other elite QBs put in not to mention the other players on his own team.
A pretty solid rule for QBs in this league is first to arrive and last to leave. Look to guys like Manning and Brees for examples.
by adamwanderer on Nov 22, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
QB Situation
Anyone care to comment on why the Panthers haven’t even discussed using Armanti Edwards, a 2-time NCAA National Championship quarterback from Applachian State who led his team to defeat Michigan?!?!
by Milton Anderson on Nov 22, 2010 4:06 PM EST reply actions
You must be new....
The AE at QB discussion has been discussed on here ad nauseum.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Yep. New to the blog. What's your take?
by Milton Anderson on Nov 22, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
I don't have an official "take" on AE at QB because he was drafted to play receiver.
But, I would like to see him active at WR and run a few wildcat plays.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Welcome to the blog M.A.
A.E. @ QB is a sensitive subject around here :)
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
Come now guys... let's not jump on new members.
You’ll have to forgive us, but this is a topic we’ve talked to death and it tends to get heated whenever it’s brought up.
In short:
- Armanti himself has said he’s not really comfortable taking snaps under center.
- The Panthers’ primary concern is developing him as a WR, not muddying the waters by trying to make him learn QB too.
So the next part of the equation is: “Why aren’t the Panthers at least activating him to play WR and occasionally Wildcat QB?”
Unfortunately, that’s not a question we can answer. I’d love to know the justification. Some presume it’s because Fox doesn’t like rookies, others postulate Fox is doing it as an F.U to the organization and some think it’s because Armanti is a bust, take your pick.
I think most on this blog think he needs to be active to get some playing time, but the majority believe he should stick to his NFL position of becoming the best WR he can and occasionally playing wildcat QB rather than trying to force a square peg into a round hole which would be the case trying to turn him into a full time, under center, QB.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
I think you've answered the wildcat QB question in your post.
They want him to concentrate on being a WR.
As for why he’s constantly deactivated – who knows. This is Fox after all. My memory is failing me, but he did the same with another highly touted rookie – I think it might have been Williams.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Yeah, but I guess the way I look at it there’s no new skills for Armanti to learn to play the wildcat. He’ll be taking the snap out of the gun and either running or passing, that and just a handful of possible plays.
If he were to transition to QB on a full time basis there would a multitude of challenges.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
Well there's a decent chance...
…he’ll be active for the game vs. Cleveland, since we have a WR spot open again.
If you want positives James, try this entire draft class.
LaFell and Gettis look the business at WR – which is encouraging considering those guys take at least 3 years to develop. Pugh is making plays when on the field, so is Hardy – infact he’s probably our second best DE already.
We’ve yet to see what Edwards can do – but I’m confident our College Scouting Director knows what he’s doing. He’ll be a play maker before it’s all said and done.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
just a few numbers
1- # of quarterbacks in NCAA to rush for over 4,000 yards and pass for more than 10,000. Armanti Edwards (4,361 rushing & 10,392 passing)
1- # of people to win Walter Payton awar? (FCS equivalent to Heisman). Armanti Edwards (2008-2009)
313- # of rushing yards Edwards completed in one game. (2007 Richmond)
433- single game passing yds (2008 South Carolina State)
495- single game total offense yds (2007 Richmond)
2- # of national championships he played in and won (2007 ASU 28 UMass 17 / 2008 ASU 49 Delaware 21)
4- # of Southern Conference Championships he won (2006-2009)
42- # of wins he complied while at App State…one of those against Michigan and one of those against Joe Flacco and the Delaware Blue Hens
This kid is the real deal. still don’t believe me? youtube “The Armanti Edwards Show Against Richmond” and enjoy the show my friends…they don’t call him “Money” for nothing. He’s got talent.
No one's saying he doesn't have talent.
He does have talent. But that doesn’t mean he’s an NFL QB.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
My troll sense is tingling
Brand new poster jumps onto the AE bandwagon and dolls out his stats on two different threads just as another poster brings him up?
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