Is Brian St. Pierre really the Panthers best option?
by Kyle Gray Beach on Nov 19, 2010 9:56 AM EST
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First off, I am an unabashed Armanti Edwards fan (but I've been a Panthers fan since before he was a teenager). He should get the rock, especially at this point. End of discussion really.
As previously noted by others, our own Tony Pike had both a better collegiate career and has thrown more NFL passes than Brian St. Pierre. So why Brian? Think about it. Couldn't we have brought in a number of cats who have actually played for John Fox? Wheres Randy Fasani at? Wheres Hunter Cantwell at?
But more importantly, if we have to go and buy a free agent quarterback and throw him into a game a few days later, why not reach out for someone who can win games? Jeff Garcia and Dante Culpepper are both playing football in the UFL. I think Josh McCown is still available. Jamarcus Russel even at his worst has at least taken some snaps in the last part of this decade.
As a consumer of this sports franchise, I really feel like I'm getting a pretty poor product.
Jaxon's input:
I try not to change the content of fanposts I choose to elevate to the front page too much but since I was already planning to tackle this topic I thought I could simply add to what Kyle has posted since he seemed to capture exactly what i was thinking...err, actually I mean answer his question with my own postulation:
I think John Fox is sick of having to take the cheapest option out there instead of being given the freedom (and dollars) to bring in someone who could actually make a difference. It's like having to shop for formal clothes at Wal-Mart, the good stuff simply is not available in the limited price range.
So Fox says..."Well if that's all I got to work with I'll just show Jerry exactly what his minimal budget will buy" and put the guy on the field as see what happens.
Of course we all know what is going to happen. Brian St. Pierre (BSP) is going to get pounded, probably knocked out of the game. So once the Panthers are down by about 20 points and BSP is ailing we'll bring Pike in for some more mop up time in the 2nd half.
That's my theory.
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well...
the UFL guys can’t leave yet. if they go to an NFL team before their offseason, the team has to pay $150,000 to the losing organization. so garcia and culpeppe are out. fasani was worse than moore in TC, so don’t want him. russell is garbage, and probably doesn’t even like playing football. i don’t know why we kept pike instead of cantwell. cantwell had a cannon for an arm and obviously knows the system better than anyone else you mentioned. i’d rather have him thanst. pierre, but that might be like admitting a mistake for hurney.
so the bottom line is you’re right about the inferior product.
Gantt said on the radio this morning
that the UFL season ends this week, so maybe next week they will bring in someone else.
If you really want to do something, you will find a way. If you don't, you will find an excuse.
Not really.
Never had a chance.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
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Goodness Mccown please save us.
I never thought I would love to see Mccown again, but Please Josh come and save us LOL. Clausen is very doubtful to be back next week and the Oline is trash as well. So if your gonna let a QB go and get killed then BSP is a good punching bag but it is not fare to the fans, or Brian to have to face that.
He is in the NFL but barely b/c a good college team could beat the NFL’s worst offense / team in Charlotte, NC this season. Only seven more horrific games to get through, then trade the #1 Overall pick and reacquire our second rounder, as well as a mid-first rounder, and lastly another pick in 2012 NFL draft.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Nov 19, 2010 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
That's all you want for the #1 pick?
You certainly have low standards.
The number 1 pick in the draft would require a team’s entire 2011 draft if they wanted to make it an even deal, based on the points system used to evaluate the worth of draft picks.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
now we know
hunter cantwell is on the ravens practice squad.
Matt Leinart is abailable
i know he is not great but he is better than pierre
I will respectfully argue that...
Living in Phoenix, I’ve seen “Hollywood Matt” in action. He is the anti-leader. His kiddy, whiney and childish behavior makes pro football a bad place for him… and that cost him his job here. He’s poison. Aaaaackk!
I don’t know anything about St. Pierre’s demeanor, but I do know he was respected as a Cardinal here.
"Jeff Davidson, the reiteration of retardation..." -Chuck Swank
by SwankTheTank on Nov 19, 2010 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
No.
Not a chance. Burt Reynolds give us a better chance to win.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
Yano...
Adam Sandler throws a pretty good ball too. :P
by The Duke Dude on Nov 19, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
LOL
I love that skit.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
But that's always been the case.
He’s Burt Freakin’ Reynolds.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
No...
While i dont condone BSP being our starting QB i still don’t dont want to see Armanti in there either. While it would be entertaining it would serve no other purpose. Armanti isn’t going to be our QB of the future. He was drafted and is being groomed to be our play maker WR. Throwing him out there at QB in a garbage season with little to no help on the offensive side of the ball would do more harm then good. Clausen will more then likely be healthy next week and will resume QB duties.(unless the unlikely hood BSP lights it up). This is a one week stint where Fox is basically putting his cards out on the table. I don’t blame the guy for being frustrated with the way the team was handled in the off season in his lame duck year but it doesn’t really put him in a good light putting dirty laundry out on the line for the world to see.
"Hard Work Beats Talent When Talent Fails To Work Hard" - Kevin Durant
Fox doesn't care anymore- BSP PLEASE ! OMG.
BSP "The Best opt to lead us to victory " OMG why if Fox still leading this club. He just wants to stick it to Richardson. Fox is being totally unprofessional, and now I wouldn’t want him back for free.
Cowher, Dungy, Gruden – please let us land one of these head coaches and fix this sunken ship in the bottom of a bay known as the NFL.
Panthers are a GD-joke of a team on OFfense. Fox is an every bigger joke.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Nov 19, 2010 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
Pike should be starting... that's all there is to it.
If the argument is they know someone is going to get destroyed back there, then it’s a poor one.
Why would the Panthers let their future starter (presumably) get hammered in Clausen only to be concerned about the future health of Tony Pike? They’re football players… you play the best person no matter what; and I have a hard time believing it’s St. Pierre.
I’m starting to wonder if John Fox already has his next job secure. He was able to talk to teams last offseason with JR’s blessing… maybe this is just his Albert Haynesworth season knowing he’s got a job next year and wants to give a final FU to Jerry Richardson for how bad their relationship has become? Who knows.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
i hope the door hits Fox , Davidson and the rest of this ungodly coaching staff in the ass when the leave town. This team is young and have made their mistakes but with this coaching staff im surprised we have the one win. They all are collecting paychecks and going threw the motions. Feel bad for Meeks he has done the best he could with what he has had.
"Hard Work Beats Talent When Talent Fails To Work Hard" - Kevin Durant
by MMA_PITBULL on Nov 19, 2010 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
Because they're different QBs.
Clausen came out pretty much ready to play. He has to get used to the speed of the NFL, sure, but he played in a pro offence – he was making NFL reads and throws.
Pike came out of a spread offence, mainly in the shotgun, making easy throws and reads. He definitely needs a year in an NFL conditioning program to see if they can do anything about his arm. I scouted him a little last season and really liked what I saw – but he’s a project, pure and simple.
You may think it’s a poor excuse, but St Pierre taking a battering is much better than Pike being mentally scarred.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
If he's 'mentally scarred' by one start where he's hit then I don't want him on my football team
I’m well aware of the spread offense, but that doesn’t change that if Pike wasn’t ready to start this Sunday he wasn’t ready to fill in against NO.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
I'm not going to disagree about the Saints game.
But that’s Fox for you.
I’m worried that Pike will be hit 20+ times and be confused by the coverages and speed of the NFL. That’s the mental scarring I’m referring to – being that overwhelmed leaves a lasting impression.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
I understand that... but I'm looking at Cleveland
They weren’t afraid to put in a rookie third string spread offense QB when they had to, and it’s worked out. Not saying Pike is comparable to McCoy, but still.
It’s highly unlikely Pike will be hit 20+ times, but why not start him and if by the end of the 1st it’s looking that way pull him for St. Pierre and then say you were “Wanting to save your rookie”?
That way you don’t ruin his confidence.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
I think Colt McCoy is a little better than Tony Pike
Not much, but a little (they actually graded out in the mid 80s if I remember right).
Absolutely.
But given Pike registered a rating over 60 his one game, and St. Pierre is a career 47.1 I’m questioning even the fed line of “He gives us the best chance to win”
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
They haven't exactly thrown enough to let their stat show you anything
Pike has what… 6 completions? And Pierre has 5? Not exactly a large body of work to go with there.
I don’t disagree with your premise, just not sure that exactly justifies it.
I agree with what you're saying.
QB rating alone doesn’t justify it, I think it only shows that Fox’s ‘best chance to win’ line is dispelled by it. He isn’t a veteran whose had any semblance of prior success.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
I think the best chance to win
is based on what they see in practices. I would think Pierre has to look a little more comfortable in the pocket just due to all his practice time in it. That doesnt mean he will be feeling comfortable in a real game pocket though, when the other team is trying to take his head off.
Pocket?? Do you really think there will be a Pocket?
I was thinking that I was drinking too much....so I quit thinking
Haha.
Yeah, there will be no pocket. The O-line sucked before, and it will be practically non-existent this week without Wharton. Wharton and Kalil were the only one’s kinda pulling their weight (at least in comparison to the others). If I remember correctly, and correct me if I’m wrong, but when Goodson did successfully run with the ball through the middle, wasn’t it between Wharton and Kalil?
As to St. Pierre, Fox honestly may think that St. Pierre looked better in practice. BUT, my real opinion is that (1) Foxy is full of BS and wants to stick it to Richardson and Hurney, and (2) that with the O-line the way it is, it is in Pike’s and Armanti’s best interests to protect them as much as possible by keeping them off the field for as long as they can.
by jamiedk on Nov 20, 2010 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
There is more to it than Pike just being the rookie, with a healthy o line thats playing like theyre expected to play i say start Pike for experience. But the way things are now, i wouldnt start him.
Also if they started Pike and he was getting killed so they pull him for Pierre, then Pierre gets hurt they cant go back to Pike. Pike can get his experience at the end of the game or in a future game against a team that is resting starters.
Yes they can go back to Pike... what makes you think they cant?
Pike isn’t the emergency third, he’s the backup
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
Ok
I dont know stuff like that. I just read people talking about they couldnt start a qb after he was benched & thought it meant any qb. I will be the first to admit i dont know shit about all the rules, I do know a few of them though.
That's the 'emergency qb rule'
That player doesn’t count towards your 53 but can dress. If you use the emergency third before the 4th quarter you cant change back.
It looks like the depth chart will be:
St. Pierre
Pike
Edwards (emergency third)
So, only if they play Edwards does it invalidate another QBs ability to enter the game.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
Okay so the 3rd isnt included on the roster until he is in the game,
then they have to remove whoever he replaced?
Exactly
For the prior games it was Moore/Clausen/Pike (emergency) which was why they waited until the 4th quarter to play him vs. New Orleans.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
In all honesty....
I’m not a big Fox fan, but if you got shit on like he has at work on a regular basis. It resulted in everyone in 2 states calling you a douche and made you look like a ass, wouldn’t part of you want to stick it up your bosses a$$. Be honest now, he isn’t making personnel choices, Richardson and Hurney hire the players. He honestly got handed a turd this season, professional is one thing, but if you got force fed the crap he has, wouldn’t you be wanting, at least a little, to throw some of the crap back?
As the great philosopher Yoda said "Try not! Do you must!"
He wasn't force fed anything
When John Fox decided to no decline Richardson’s offer to leave he lost the ability to play the ‘woe is me’ card. Life hasn’t been that bad for John Fox, and because of the money issues in 2010 people are now characterizing Jerry Richardson as a Mr. Potter-esque tyrant, which isn’t really the case.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
I don't think he was force fed "crap." The players that were jettisoned are not exactly
lighting it up around the league. He was given a young QB with game experience + 2.5 from the draft, and a stable of young WRs to go with stud 89. When the initial offensive scheme went south (as was obvious in preseason), the coach’s job is to make adjustments. Fox Fail.
I was thinking that I was drinking too much....so I quit thinking
The eerie parallels between Brian St. Pierre and Brett Favre
1) both were summoned out of retirement by HCs who probably won’t be with their respective teams next year;
2) both missed Training Camp
3) both were previously last seen tossing footballs to H.S. players in their home towns;
4) both have extraordinary levels of past NFL experience; and then….
5) both have 5 letters in their first name, starting with Br…, and French surnames!
Bizarre similarities, aren’t they?
(there are as yet unconfirmed rumors of Jan Sterger’s involvement, and that St. Pierre wears Wranglers jeans, but I repeat, unconfirmed.)
by bigdavis on Nov 19, 2010 10:40 AM EST reply actions 7 recs
Rec'd
Just because this is freakin hilarious.
by The Duke Dude on Nov 19, 2010 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
I think you nailed it BigD
They probably stopped looking for similarities after 1,2, and 3 and rushed to the phone before the Cards or the Fins beat them to the St.Pierre
Good one, bigdavis. Rec'd
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
yep...
I like to think I bring up some pretty good points although I’ve never actually gotten a green comment.
Lots of people just do that (somewhat annoying) “+1” thing instead of just reccing the post (which ultimately serves the same purpose). I think I’ve been robbed a number of times in that regard.
I know how you guys feel...
A lot of times people forget that the “rec” button is even there, and just go with the +1 comment because it’s easier.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
mmmhmm
it’s the little action button, for those who don’t know.
by aceofsween on Nov 19, 2010 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
The result from St. Pierre will probably be eerily similar to Favre....
In that Favre sucks this year…
To me at least there is a subtle difference between a Rec and +1
+1 means, “I agree”
Rec means, “This is a really awesome and (probably) thought provoking post (that I may or may not agree with).”
That just me though…
I agree.. I mean, +1..
I may rec something I don’t necessarily agree with if it’s deserving, but I wouldn’t +1 it.
I may +1 something that I agree with but don’t feel is in need of a rec.
They each have their place, in my opinion. Sometimes I may do both… and sometimes I’ll forget to do either.
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
Been thinking about this
This may be far-fetched, but I wonder if some other quarterbacks have actually declined offers from the Panthers. I know that at least one running back (can’t remember who) declined our offer before we signed Andre Brown.
It wouldn't surprise me...
Hurney: Hey Jamarcus, you wanna come play for the Panthers?
Russell: What?!? Screw that man — you guys suck.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Jamarcus is way worse than the Panthers
I might have ceased being panthers fan if we had signed him.
He heard a rumor that it was difficult getting purple drank in the Carolina's.
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
You're kidding right?
Purple drank and orange drank are pretty much a staple in the Carolinas.
As the great philosopher Yoda said "Try not! Do you must!"
Yes, it was a joke..
Though I gotta admit, I’ve never heard of it being orange. Must be an interesting mixture.
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
Definitely possible
You can sign anyone off a team’s practice squad to your 53 man roster provided they agree to a deal. I could definitely see a few QBs who would rather hang around as their team’s #3 than give it up to come to CAR and be gone next year.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
by James Dator on Nov 19, 2010 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
I bet Pike really feels needed by this organization
Why waste a draft pick if you can’t stomach putting him in the game when his turn comes around. This season has and still is a total drag and I lay it all at the feet of Richardson and Hurney. You can see that Richardson cares more about his checkbook than he does the fans that put that money in that checkbook. I am losing respect for this organization and it’s leaders quickly. Just think we could have easly had M. Vick calling plays and winning games, but “NO” everyone want to keep punishing him after he paid his dues.
No one thought he would be as good as he's been.
At the time it wasn’t a hard choice to make.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
I'll post something I said before here from a previous thread in regards to Vick
I too feel like what he did was inexcusable. He has paid his debt to society. I think the stigma/taint of what has transpired will remain on him throughout his career. To those for whom it is important, it will never completely leave him. For those to whom it is unimportant, they won’t care and will criticize others for condemning him.
I think it is truly a cultural divide and akin to another language. Animals are an everyday part of my life. My wife and I rescue cats, find them homes. Our pets are part of our family. The concept of someone harming one of them makes me almost Hullk out. A friend of mine from work, grew up with the "they are just animals" mentality. He literally does not understand why it is a big deal at all. I can’t make him understand and frankly it isn’t my right to try and make him understand.
I wish Vick the best, he has paid his debt to society and owes me nothing. I would not want him on the Panthers anymore than I want a sex offender that has paid his debt to society in my neighborhood.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
disagree
i think comparing vick playing in carolina to a sex offender is wrong because every ex-con needs to find a job when they get out. however, while vick is obviously playing better right now than anyone ever has in carolina history, how much of that is because of his coaching and learning in philly. i think if he was in carolina this year, he would be chillin with TD, Moore, D-Will, Connor and Otah on IR cuz of our lack of blocking. if he was healthy, he wouldn’t be playing at the same level in carolina. our qb coach made jake and matt worse.
by usana_gaines on Nov 19, 2010 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
I have no problem ith him finding a job
Just not with the Panthers.
Admittedly there is some hyperbole there, but the need for it is to clarify how wrong what he did is to a sizable portion of our society. So, I use ‘sex offender’ to make sure it is understood and because I honestly feel that way.
If Vick were to bring victory and success, or multiple Super Bowls to the Panthers I would not want him here. It would taint it all for me. To me there are things in life more important than success and money.
Perhaps his road to redemption is more like a landfill. Sure society needs redemption, but it is often not wanted anywhere near the neighborhood one treasures.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe Vick sees how wrong it was now?
Maybe he has prayed for forgiveness, changed his ways, & has definitely paid for his crimes. Where is the christian forgiveness?
Forgiveness
Would you willingly accept Rae Carruth back on this team if he had “prayed for forgiveness, changed his ways?”
I would not.
Part of the debt to society is the social stigma of being a felon.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
I mean
Yes, if he played like Vick is playing this season i would. I dont care about their past. If they paid their debt to society i dont care. Who here has never shot their ex ole lady to be free?
I haven't.
Just saying. :-)
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Me neither :-)
Vick has paid his debt to society. Forgiveness is supposed to be granted by those that were wronged. I was not wronged and the dogs he killed and abused can’t exactly offer forgiveness.
I wish him the best. But he can stay where he’s at…far away from my beloved team.
If they were to completely change their mindset and sign Vick. I would sadly walk away with my support and stick to college football.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Mayhaps you shouldn’t force “Christian forgiveness” on people. If you want to believe in an invisible man in the sky, that’s all you. It doesn’t have a place on a football blog.
With that said, Vick was a special case of “man just out of prison, out of football for 2 years, and was only a mediocre QB, but excellent athlete when he WAS playing”…no one had any idea he might actually put it all together and be a decent QB. Without even mentioning his off the field issues, it’s hard to disagree with the football reasoning for not signing Vick…
by maelstrom on Nov 19, 2010 1:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The christian attitude
is coming from the people saying that he did something wrong to begin with genius.
I fail to see the connection
The abuse, and slaughter of dogs for the sake of sport and gambling has little to do with Christian attitude. Don’t be so obtuse in thinking those that feel so strongly about animal abuse are “christian.”
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
Regardless of religion, the concept remains.
“Dog meat is currently consumed in a variety of countries such as China, Vietnam, the Philippines, and Korea.”
- Wikipedia
Do we hate them as well? I’d love to go to China. I’d probably try the dog meat over there as well. In fact, I still don’t know what kind of meat it is that they serve at the local china buffet that tastes so good.
They do it as a means of survival, Vick did it as a means of thrill and (more) profit. The difference, to me, is greed. So, Vick was greedy as most people are. The world is not so innocent, he just happened to get exposed. It’s nothing new, so I’m certainly not going to grab a gavel and start judging everyone else when I know I haven’t been perfect myself. It’s so easy to stand on that pedestal, when do we get down? We’ve been judging Vick for so long, my feet hurt.
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
by D-Ranged1 on Nov 20, 2010 12:56 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Just sayin..
While I’m not circling the block lookin’ for dinner, I wouldn’t be opposed to trying it if it were already prepared.
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
Some people like dog meat...
(Probably NSFW, but it’s not terrible.)
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
We step down from the pedestal
typically some point after we select to step up on the pedestal. I don’t see myself as ever having gotten up on a pedestal.
I also don’t hate Vick. I don’t feel the need to hate someone if I find their behavior reprehensible. There are many people (apparently) that have no problems with what he did and are willing to move on. Because of my own personal ethics, to which I hold myself, and social standards which I agree with, I would not be willing to trade what I believe in as a person…so that my favorite football team is better.
by adamwanderer on Nov 20, 2010 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously Bernz, don’t get antagonistic.
by maelstrom on Nov 19, 2010 2:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Rae Carruth killed a preganant woman...
I got pets and love my Dobermans, but there is a big big damn difference there, lol.
As the great philosopher Yoda said "Try not! Do you must!"
In consideration with how he went about killing them
…not in my eyes.
You don’t have to understand it. As Foxy says, it is what it is.
I am not alone.
by adamwanderer on Nov 20, 2010 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
Yes he should be able to get a job
Let Vick use that quality Va Tech education to go out and get a job. There is no guarantee of anyone having a job in the NFL. Part of the responsibility that comes with having a big-money, high-profile job like that should be being a role model. If he was Joe Blow special teams LB he wouldn’t be welcomed back. But special exception is made because he is Michael Vick, just like it has been most of his adult life. What message does that send to the youth of today?
At what point do you say a player isnt welcomed back & when he is?
If a player was a trophy hunter, like he goes out & shoots a bear & has it stuffed, should he be welcomed to the nfl? If a player goes & fights a bull in Mexico, should he be welcomed back? There are a lot of things that some look at as acceptable & others dont, who is to decide what ones are welcome & arent welcome?
The business owners doing the hiring
They get to determine, within the bylaws of hiring practices, which potential employees to whom they extend employment. They can do this based off of the image they wish to present to their clientele.
For example Abercrombie and Fitch has been allowed to exclude certain body types as employees based on the image they are trying to present.
If NFL decide they do not want to sign a player based on their reputation, they should have the right to do so.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
The same thing for a team wanting to sign them.
My question was to the fans that say Vick shouldnt be allowed to play. Of course the nfl & teams decide , i was asking it to the fans, like dog fighting is not ok with them, even if the guy went to jail & reformed. But would it be ok with them if a guy went out & shot a deer, or a bear, & never went to jail for it because thats legal.
I think I get what you are saying
However I think there is (or should be to most) a very clear line between animal abuse and hunting.
On that same note, if an owner or the community which the business resides feels particularly strong about an issue I have no qualms about them removing support.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
What is the clear line?
Is it better if a hunter shoots a deer with an arrow, then the deer runs for its life for 2 hours bleeding while the hunter is tracking it to finish it off, than if someone kills a dog in 5 minutes? Is it better if a hunter kills an animal to mount its head on a wall than if they kill a dog?
If you never killed another living organism...like ever...
You would die. Sustenance comes at the cost of other living things.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
I'm not sure what to make of that comment
Either you are trolling, or…well…I’d be concerned about someone failing to see the difference between hunting an animal for food and drowning a dog because it doesn’t fight well.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
I didnt say for food did i?
I said there are trophy hunters. Thay hunt just for the skins or the heads of the animals. That is considered to be not illegal. & you wouldnt know about it if any of the other players do it.
Trophy hunting is just as morally reprehensible
Most hunters I know (and I hunted myself growing up) abide by the code of “never kill what you won’t eat.”
And yes it is illegal to kill an animal and leave it’s carcass, especially if collecting trophies.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
I am not trying to defend killing dogs. I am saying that has nothing to do with him playing football.
Then i brought up a couple of comparable things that seem to be acceptable to the same people. How about a mule pulling a plow, do you think they wanted tyo pull farmers plows? What about cowboys using spurs, you think horses enjoyt getting the spurs in the ribs? Thats my point that people do stuff thats cruel all the time & nobody says they shouldnt work.
The reason it is an issue
Is because you are rationalizing unacceptable behavior. Rationalizing morally unacceptable behavior is by definition unethical.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
unethical by those that see it that way.
Some people see animals just as animals that mean nothing to them. I wasnt rationalizing anything. I said he did something wrong & he paid his dues for it.
This is a discussion for a
Ethics class focusing on moral nihilism and moral realism.
He has paid part of his dues. Now he gets to live with the stigma.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
I agree, he has to live with the memories of it all too.
I wasnt trying to defend killing dogds, just looking at the other side of things. I was not in favor of getting Vick just because i didnt think he would have anything left after his jail time. I was wrong about that.
I respect your position
My father and I discuss this quite frequently. He dad has taken the position of “he has served his time, and we should forgive but remain watchful while he revels in success. To be sure he doesn’t fall back into old habits.”
I think forgiveness is a lifelong process, not a get on your knees once proposition.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
I was only saying it because i was once like Vick used to be
And i changed. When i was young animals lives meant nothing to me. But people change, i am proof of that.
Glad to hear it
I had a close family member that was the same way. He too has changed and still feels guilt over his actions.
These things take time and are fresh in the minds of many, myself included.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
There's a clear line...
Dog fighting is typically serial abuse of an animal. Also, you’re forgetting that Vick also went to jail for animal abuse / cruelty (not just dog fighting) which is also very different than hunting.
Also, the intent regarding dog fighting vs. hunting is clearly different. The hunter wasn’t trying just to wound the deer (i.e. he doesn’t want to go slogging through the woods for two hours).
I hear he once
punched Chuck Norris in the nads while Chuck was in mid roundhouse kick.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
This frustrates me.
Firstly it was a 6th rounder. Secondly he’s a rookie. He wasn’t expected to contribute this season. I think it’s a really smart draft choice – we potentially have our back up QB for the next 4/5 years.
As for Mike Vick. The reason he’s looking so good is because Reid and his QB coach are VERY good at their jobs. They develop QBs very well and the system is very QB friendly. What he’s doing is still amazing, but I can guarantee he’d look a pale shadow of that player in Carolina had we signe dhim.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
by OldhamA on Nov 19, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
Vick has Maclin, Jackson, and a now healthy Celek, and a pass catching running back, with a solid line to throw behind. He was coached to go through his progressions instead of just run, and took to the teaching. In Carolina, he would not have achieved that success, he said he wanted to come here, because he saw the QB’s we had and said “hell, anyone could take that job!” I like me some Vick, he had scored 40+ points for me in fantasy several times this season. But he would have struggled bad here with the coaching and receiving corps we have.
As the great philosopher Yoda said "Try not! Do you must!"
I think this is Foxy
practically begging to be fired.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 11:26 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
I agree
Fox has been constantly deflecting questions about veterans saying “Ask the personnel department” so now he’s going to defiantly start anyone who is a semblance of a veteran to prove a point about the purge whether or not it’s in the franchises best interests.
The true shame is that some of us saw this five weeks ago, but c’est la vie.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
by James Dator on Nov 19, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
In all fairness to Fox
He has consistently fallen on the sword for poor performance of the team. Frankly as the leader, he should. However, as you have adroitly pointed out before, the crack are showing in the relationship. That sh*t won’t fly anymore and he’s got a rep to protect since he is moving on after this year.
I don’t fault him at all.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
I don't fault Fox for anything leading up to 2010
He did an admirable job with the cards he was dealt.
I just think it shows a lot more character for him to walk away before this season started rather than take the $4.5 million and try and prove a point now.
If his convictions were strong enough he should have taken JR’s offer to be released from his contract and left the team and money before this season began. However, when he chose to take the remaining $4.5 million which he was entitled to he also had a tacit responsibility to perform his job to the best of his ability, and to do what was in the best interest of the Carolina Panthers. That job performance was what the organization are entitled to.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
by James Dator on Nov 19, 2010 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
I understand what you are saying
but to an extent I disagree. He didn’t quit on the job despite knowing the situation. Very military thing to do.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
I get that
But would said military member perform his/her job fraught with passive aggressive actions and decisions that were ultimately to the detriment of their platoon?
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
by James Dator on Nov 19, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
I think in cases where people think the problem is "above their heads" they start looking out for themselves
It makes you feel powerless and like you don’t have any control. So your natural reaction would be to do whatever you need to do that is in your own best interests. Sometimes, that is to the detriment of others. I think in this case with Fox, we are seeing exactly that.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
Actually yeah
I’ve seen it happen.
If you are effectively middle-management and calling the shots in the field and your upper chain will not provide you with the resources you need to do the job….there are grievance processes but your only recourse is to direct questions/criticism up the chain. You can’t criticize the chain, but you can make them look bad, so they’ll do their damn job.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
And it’s not like they just decided to spring this “youth movement” decision on Fox. He knew about it before he agreed to come back this year. He knew what he was getting in to, and he chose to stay.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
It strikes me as an act of someone
that has a very high confidence inf their own abilities to make something out of nothing.
The odds are stacked against you. You know what’s coming and what tools you have to do the job. So you buckle down and make do with what you have. If people start criticizing you for what’s going and happening…well you can’t call out your chain of command, so you tell people to talk to the folks making the decisions.
I’ve seen this kind of thing dozens of times in my experiences in the military.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
I remember Fox saying they cut Harris to save money
It was like he didnt expect it when it happened. Who said that Fox knew all this before the season started? I would like to see that article.
I dont think so
Money may have been a bonus, but I recall it was Meeks liking the greater speed options he had behind Harris, because it plays to the defensive scheme. They thought harris was too slow
harris wasn't cut
he was traded for a LB.
by usana_gaines on Nov 19, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
No, it's totally different.
In a trade they get back someone who they feel will help the team. It’s a lot better than just releasing a guy.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
The player that was let go, traded, is still gone from the team isnt he?
My point was that Fox said Harris was “traded” to cut the budget, therefore leading me to believe he wasnt aware of the going with youth movement. Or maybe he was but didnt realize just how far they were going to go with it.
Getting rid of Harris would be a surprise over the rest...
Hitman is 28 years old. The other vets who were purged (Hoover, Jake, etc.) were all over 30.
Youth movement doesn’t apply to a guy who is, in fact, still young.
The Harris trade was because he’s not a Cover 2 SS, and Godfrey is.
So, just because Fox was surprised at the Harris trade doesn’t mean he wasn’t aware beforehand that the team was going to go young this year. I see JR as a stand up guy, one who would say to Fox: “You can leave if you want, because I’m shedding payroll in this uncapped season and giving the young guys a chance to play.” I don’t have proof that Fox knew beforehand, but everything I know about this organization and JR himself tells me that it wasn’t a secret to Fox.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
I have heard a couple of reasons that Harris was traded, all seem to be legit.
All i was saying was that Fox said it was to lower the payroll at first. Maybe he knew they were going young but didnt realize how far they would go with it. A lot of things are posted as fact when its just supposition. I am sure that through this article, we will get to the bottom of it all though. if we keep trying.
The best option right now would be to play Pike. Hands down.
Play him, but mix in a healthy dosage of the Mountaineer formation with Armanti. At this point, we are playing to see what we have. We have a perfect opportunity to get Pike some game experience, and a great opportunity to test the mountaineer formation against live bullets.
Granted, both might get completely shut down due to all the injuries and O-Line inadequacies, but at least you don’t put the burden all on one player. In both cases, each gets experience running their phases of the offense, and at least gets a live NFL look. Both Pike and Armanti could desperately use this.
St. Pierre doesn’t fit in the equation at all. Putting him in there is literally saying “we are afraid someone we care about is going to get hurt… so take this football, and we’ll pay you to be a punching bag.”
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
Heres the deal
The Panthers suck, they sucked with Moore, they sucked with Clausen, They’re gonna suck With St.Pierre or whatever his name is. I am and will always be a panther fan but until next season when they bring in a new coaching staff we are just beating our heads up against a wall. I think this has been a throwaway season and look forward to january when I can get extremely drunk and try to forget this disaster of a season ever happened. However, I look forward to next season because I still believe we have one of the most talented compilations of players in the NFL. They are just missing a true leader like they had in Delhomme(Thats right I said it, I miss Delhomme) and experience. Once They have these things and can come together as a team under a leader that they respect and want to win for, we will have one of the best teams in the NFL. I will be happy to look back and see that the panthers of today become the Champs of tomorrow.
IT AIN'T SIZE OF THE DOG IN THE FIGHT BUT THE SIZE OF THE FIGHT IN THE DOG
by BlackCatFan on Nov 19, 2010 11:56 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I agree with missing Delhomme's leadership
but he’d a been in a body bag by week 3 or 4, and don’t forget the way our offensive line has been all season, how many bad decisions would that have led to? He couldn’t even stay healthy in Cleveland, and he threw some picks there….
not done yet
i fully expect that two of our qbs don’t finish the season…pick two – clausen, pike or BSP. when we’re down to1 QB in week 13, edwards will be the back-up.
by usana_gaines on Nov 19, 2010 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
There has to be someone
available with a better resume than Pierre. But well, they have Pierre now. Just for entertainment lets say a reporter asked Fox why they chose Pierre. If Fox said “you have to ask personell that”, would he be blaming them? Or would he be answering the question the way it should be answered? People saying Fox is blaming, when all he is doing is trying to direct the question to the right people, seems a little misplaced to me.
I blame Richardson for this seasons failure.
Lets give him the benefit of doubt and say he wanted to cut the vets & set up the team for the future. He did that. What was stopping him from signing a few vets for 1 year contracts? I am sure a few players they let go would have rather stayed for 1 more year. Look at Moss, he signed with the Vikings, & is now with ummm, i think the Titans? I am sure he would have taken a 1 year deal here. There are others that most likely would have taken a 1 year deal & Richardson didnt go after anyone. I also still think this teams coaching, including Davis’s play calling, would have won a few more games had the players played up to expectations. This season has been an all around disaster.
Moss doesn’t like being on losing teams, which we were before he was traded or released by the Vikes. How long before he starts trash talking QBs and throwing our team under the bus, Smitty knocks his lights out, etc before you’d be up here saying how terrible of a choice to was to sign him?
granted, there were better options available than Moss (from a personality standpoint anyway), but anybody worth anything is going to want a long term deal. And nobody WANTS to sign with a losing team unless no one else wants them (in which case why would we want them) or they get paid A LOT (not happening this year)…
by maelstrom on Nov 19, 2010 2:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You would want them
because they can help the rookie players. I was just using Moss as an example of 1 of the free agents that could have been at least sought after. I am sure before the season started Moose would have came back for 1 more year. Probably Hoover too. Not that they definitely would but the Panthers could have offered.
A real personnel department would contact the head coach for his opinion before signing a player.
They wouldn’t just call Fox in the office and say “Hey John, here’s your new QB. He was a stay at home dad last week, but he’s thrown 5 career passes in 7 years.”
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
I think it went down like this.
Fox: we need another back up qb, Clausen cant play.
Hurney: ok i’ll see what i can do.
Hurney: Mr Richardson we need another qb.
Richardson: ok see who we can get to fill in for 1 game on the cheap.
Hurney: Ok Fox heres your guy, meed this Pierre dude.
Of course thats all supposition.
by MrBernz on Nov 19, 2010 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Honestly, you're probably not too far from the truth.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Every team goes through it at some point.
I have too many friends that held their heads high as Lions and Browns fans for years to really let this get me down.
I wish Pike was getting a start on Sunday. He deserves a shot, even if it is with the deck completely stacked against him.
I hope AE gets to take some snaps. Not because I think he’s the QB of the future, but because I love to watch a wildcat offense. He’s our Brad Smith or Josh Cribbs, there are ways to make guys like that extremely productive in your offense if you use them right.
Here’s hoping the guys in the locker room still have the drive to pull off another win this year. I rather have rookies failing while giving it everything they have than a team full of Haynesworth-esque pro bowlers laying on the ground as their team gets stomped.
by SDcarolinafan on Nov 19, 2010 12:36 PM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Great attitude.
Thats how i feel too. The only thing i dont agree with is starting Pike or Edwards. I think they are too green to be starting now. Maybe later this season after some teams have secured their playoff spots & they are resting starters we can let Pike & Edwards play. Right now i feel that it would just kill their confidence.
Entirely possible.
The mental aspect of being crushed as a rookie can ruin a career.
by SDcarolinafan on Nov 19, 2010 12:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
My thoughts on the Fox issue...
I think it really boiled down to:
JR/Hurney doled out the harshness on Fox’s roster, expunging many “old reliables” and favorites of his. Fox was and is probably still pissed. I can’t blame the man. JR pulled the cheapest of moves as an administrator. I place the blame for this disaster of a season on and in this particular order:
1. Jerry Richardson – I hope you enjoy your wallet. Go buy a boat… ass.
2. Marty Hurney – You dump legit starters and proven leaders. Our free agent acquisitions have came from plucking 5th stringers from the waiver wire. Maybe the Bills have waived someone we can pick up?
3. Jeff Davidson – You don’t know how to use the people you have. You don’t know how to run an offense. I am not your friend.
4. John Fox – You could’ve probably been better about the roster moves. But, at some point, every man will become defiant given the right circumstances. The offseason was the last time his dick was to be stepped on.
The blame extends beyond that, naturally. But, I do feel much of this could’ve been avoided. I’ll watch Fox next season where ever he ends up. I still like the guy. He gave this team more than any other coach did. I’ll never forget the pic of him holding up the NFC Championship trophy. A glorious moment indeed!
"Jeff Davidson, the reiteration of retardation..." -Chuck Swank
He already had a boat...
He just let Davidson borrow it for the weekend, and it sank.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
HAHAHAHAHA!
Lovin’ it!!
"Jeff Davidson, the reiteration of retardation..." -Chuck Swank
by SwankTheTank on Nov 19, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
Here's a good boat for JR to buy...
It already comes with T-Pain on board
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Hahaha!
Yessss!
"Jeff Davidson, the reiteration of retardation..." -Chuck Swank
by SwankTheTank on Nov 19, 2010 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
Is Brian St. Pierre really the Panthers best option?
No.
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
Probably the fact that he's thrown 5 career passes in 7 years...
And last week he was a stay at home dad.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Not to mention
He has no experience whatsoever with the Panthers playbook or lack thereof, and he’s only had a week to prepare.
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
To learn the playbook.
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
In his defense, it's not hard to learn our playbook.
1st down: handoff to RB
2nd down: throw it as far as you can down field
3rd down: draw play to RB
4th down: punt
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
that's called
a flea-picker ’round these here parts, and we are damned good at it!
by PantherPaddy on Nov 19, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
LOL!
Okay I just snorted the banana pudding I was eating out of my nose.
OUCH
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
I was reading an artile where they said they were picking
Hunter Cantwell’s brain for info on our offense….
All I could think of was
Ravens Staff: “So what can you tell us about the Panthers offense, schematically?”
Hunter: “uhhh, is this a trick question?”
Ravens Staff: * confused looks* Yes of course we are serious.
Hunter: “Well, we turn and hand the ball off until Smitty threatens to lock Davidson into a cell and not feed him. Then we spend the rest of the game throwing into at least double coverage to Smitty.”
Ravens Staff: *more confused looks * ….Seriously?
Hunter: “Why would I kid about that, you guys gave me a job?”
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
awesome
Well, we turn and hand the ball off until Smitty threatens to lock Davidson into a cell and not feed him. Then we spend the rest of the game throwing into at least double coverage to Smitty.
Baltimore’s defensive coaches have been playing 36 holes a day since Monday @ 9:30am, after laughing hysterically for a half hour in their 9am meeting Monday morning.
In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.
If you look at it like this.
Pierre has been in the nfl for like 7 years. He sat on the bench most of it, but you know he still practiced even if it was with other 3rd string players, theyre still good enough to be placed on a team. Now with his , i think it was 3 teams, he played for in his 7 years, he had to have practiced using film of other teams, so he has to know some of the other teams defenses. In 7 years he has to have learned more than Pike, who missed 2 weeks in his beginning of practice, & who has also sat on the bench this whole season. And the teams Pierre played for, had to have used at least a few of the same plays the Panthers use so there has to be less for him to learn in the play book. Thats how i see it anyway.
Ya know, thats a good point...
He was drafted by the Steelers who just so happen to be in the same division as the Ravens. He probably has seen a lot of film on the Ravens blitz packages.
This is the only point I have seen at this point that makes me believe he is our best option.
However, his conditioning really can’t be good. I mean, if McNabb got benched because his conditioning wasn’t good enough for him to run the 2 minute drill (not that I buy that excuse), can this guy really handle a whole game of running away from Raven’s defenders?
Leverage?
Maybe they’re using the life of St. Pierre to make the our pass protection work harder? Like, “Guys, unless you want to see the blood of this innocent man soak the grounds of BoA Stadium… Y’all need to watch his ass… M’kay?”
HA!
"Jeff Davidson, the reiteration of retardation..." -Chuck Swank
by SwankTheTank on Nov 19, 2010 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know...
A small part of me is hoping for some kind of magic… Like ‘Angels in the Outfield!’ Yeah, that’s it!
"Jeff Davidson, the reiteration of retardation..." -Chuck Swank
You have to believe Brian St. Pierre can win this game for the Panthers. All you need is a little Faith
Knee jerk reaction - adj. 1. an immediate unthinking emotional reaction produced by an event or statement to which the reacting person is highly sensitive. 2. a facilitator of long threads on Cat Scratch Reader and similar blogs.
Did they bolt those things on?
They look detachable.
by adamwanderer on Nov 19, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, there is a face in that picture, isn’t there…
But seriously…you’re looking at her chin?
by maelstrom on Nov 19, 2010 3:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
108-0 Panthers win.
Do I get my Faith now?
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
The Point Is
Its is still about JR"s money. I have to relent on one position though, he may be trying to keep the Panthers orginization solvent in this down time. We are in a very small market. Other than that he is protecting his back pocket.
small market..
…but we have two entire state represented by one team, and I think on another thread it said Panthers were like 4th best attended stadium in the NFC….there must be a few dollars floating around the organization!!
by PantherPaddy on Nov 19, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
Thats not counting the people in Virginia that root for them just because theyre a local team
The Virginians that live close to the nc border i mean.
4th best in percentage of ticket sales
Not exactly the same as attendance. Because trust me… half the stadium at least has been empty on every game I’ve been two this year.
To JR, they're one in the same.
He gets his money, regardless of whether or not anyone actually shows up.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
True…it could be a “No, you can’t use it because you’ll ruin it…seriously, don’t touch it. Not after what you did to our other one” type thing…don’t let the current incompetent staff ruin our rookie QBs, and bring in someone next year that can actually help them…you know…by coaching them. Like, you know, a coach is wont to do, even though Fox is seemingly incapable of it.
by maelstrom on Nov 19, 2010 3:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Do me a favor!
For all you guys that poo-poo the idea of Edwards being able to handle the QB position for the Panthers do me a favor.
Go to Wikipedia and look him up.
The guy had an average QB rating of 154.54 – yeah, that right – and that was over a span of 54 games.
He won the Walter Payton Award in 2008 and 2009.
Please, go look at his stats and tell me he doesn’t deserve a shot, and by that I mean a game to show what he can do.
WHY NOT ????
Jim
Spread offense
Presumably the same reason Tony Pike isn’t playing this weekend. If Pike’s not getting the start and he’s a pure QB then Armanti isn’t and his primary position is WR.
Edwards himself said in an interview it didn’t come naturally taking snaps under center because he hadn’t since high school. Pike had the opportunity to take snaps under center for all of training camp.
Look at Tony Pike’s stats and ask the same question.
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
I'm beginning to think this whole "taking snaps from under center" thing is overrated.
After all, Clausen is the one who had all the experience doing it in college, and how many times did a fumbled snap result?
When any of the Panther QBs moved the offense, it was out of the hurry up offense, in shotgun.
So why couldn’t Pike and/or Edwards try to use what they know best, run plays from the shotgun?
It gives them a full second advantage in seeing the field, and getting in a position to deliver a pass, as opposed to the pivot and drop back maneuver they have to master, coming from under center.
by bigdavis on Nov 19, 2010 11:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I repeat...
“So why couldn’t Pike and/or Edwards try to use what they know best, run plays from the shotgun?”
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
Again... file it in the list of 'things that make sense, but will never happen'
Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator
you do realize who our coaches are right?
They don’t gameplan around their personnel. They force their personnel to excecute their gameplan….
by Steve785 on Nov 20, 2010 3:04 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You mean we DO have a gameplan?
I thought they just rolled a dice. It does have six numbers on it so that leaves two numbers open for punt and throw ball out of bounds.
Man, this thread delivers…
But the reason we’re not seeing the sense behind starting BSP is because we’re looking at this as rational, thinking football fans, and not as John Fox.
Let’s say I’m John Fox, the most stubborn, conservative coach in the NFL. I expect to win every game 3-0 (or 2-0). I loathe the forward pass, or whatever kids call it these days. I might be having QB problems, but I still have powerhouse runners like Mike Goodson and THE Josh Vaughan, so I hope I don’t have to throw the football at all on Sunday.
Meanwhile, I have 2.5 QB’s on my roster. 1.5 of them are rookies who played from the spread formation in college. The last time I started a rookie in his first NFL game, he had trouble handling the snap and screwed up the handoff, and he supposedly was used to lining up under center. St.Pierre might not be able to throw the ball, but by golly you should see how he hands it off. We’ll give him a playbook with about a dozen plays in it, including our patented “Run up the middle” and “Punt”.
Oh, and Harbaugh has already gone on record as saying he was going to blitz whoever was in the game. Well, none of our QBs has muxh experience, but BSP was once on the Ravens practice squad – maybe he knows what their blitz looks like. Not that I would actually let him audible out of any of our plays, but he might be able to recognize which side the blitz is coming from, and brace himself for impact (JR says our medical bills are getting kind of high this year).
Our other QBs? Well, Pike’s been on the roster all season – as our 3rd QB. Normally, the 3rd QB would only see action in an emergency late in the game. So we’ve spent all season working with him on the 2 minute drill. He’s comfortable working from the shotgun when the defense can’t substitute (perfect for when we used him against NO), but not the best fit for an entire game. Remember, I’m John Fox and I’m going to run the ball the entire game.
AE – well, I remember we drew up some silly plays for him in the preseason. Maybe we could drag those out this game. I have an open WR spot on the roster (LaFell is out), and it’s not like I’m planning to pass the ball this week (or ever). Maybe we can use him to get us in FG range sometime.
Looking at it in this light, the decision to start BSP looks like something that would make sense to Fox. Start BSP, never throw the ball, keep the clock running, and hope to win with a FG. Maybe we’ll throw in the Mountaineer package, and use Pike at the end of the half. If^H^HWhen we’re hopelessly behind at halftime, we’ll use Pike in the hurryup the rest of the game.
by egon petri on Nov 19, 2010 4:21 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Love the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs!
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
WHY NOT ????
Because the NFL is a whole different animal than App State is. No disrespect to App State, but it’s the truth. He also comes from a spread offense, which is totally different than the pro-style offense ran here .
Armanti would probably be a good QB, I’m not saying that he would be terrible by any means, but he was drafted to play WR for a reason.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
by BW Smith on Nov 19, 2010 4:22 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Well the 2 to 3 pass plays we'll see him probably won't show much.
I hope for his kid’s sake he doesn’t get killed by Ray Lewis (He’s don it before) or paralyzed,
I kind of feel bad for Goodson, and Vaughan, and whoever they stick in after that..
Considering they know we can’t pass the ball, our halfbacks are going to get destroyed. I mean, they can let Smitty run deep freely all he wants, our quarterbacks can’t throw any further than a screen pass…. to our halfbacks.
“Everyone, form a straight line a couple yards behind the line of scrimmage. Wait for the hand-off or the dump-off, then smash the hell out of Mike Goodson. He’ll be the guy with the ball. Don’t worry about Bobby St Patrick, he’ll be out of breath by the time they make it out of the tunnel pre-game.”
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
Now the Delhome release makes sense
Pre-season discussion with Marty Hurney:
“John, we are getting you three new QB’s next year”
John: “I’ll play Delhomme”
Hurney: ‘But John, he can’t throw anymore and he keeps losing games"
Fox: “I’ll play Delhomme, he gives me the best chance to win”
Hurney: " But we need the new kids to get some playing time"
Fox: “I’ll play Delhomme”
Hurney: “ok, fine, we’re cutting Delhomme, then. What do you think about that?”
Fox: “I’ll play Brian St. Pierre, he gives us the the best cance to win”
Lets go out and get Adam Sandler at QB
at least he got some snaps in the longest yard lol
As someone who watched him in Arizona
No he is not. Not very good at all.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Chicago Bears fan [I have always lived in Arizona, dad is from Chicago].
I can't stand fair-weather/bandwagon fans, stick with your team(s), throughout the good and the bad. And don't switch to whichever team wins the Super Bowl each year.
Thanks man..
But could you lie to us next time? haha!
"'Only problem I have with Armanti is knowing he would have been there 2-3 rounds later.' to which Darin Gantt replies 'Wouldn't have been 1 full round later.'"
I feel sorry...
For every single person who isn’t on the O-line. Absolutely any QB you put behind that line will be creamed. Period. Even an incredibly mobile one who can scramble. Our players couldn’t block long enough for even Vick to gain more than a yard or two (and sadly, one of our best blockers is probably Steve Smith – he’s short, but dang, he’s a ball of attidute, fire, and muscle). St. Pierre must not have been following the Panthers when he accepted the offer. Either that, or the guy has balls of steel. With whatever QB you put in, he’s going to be sacked at least 3-4 times (with Wharton out, it will probably be more like 6-7 times), and there can’t be a passing game with any QB with his body planted in the turf for half of the game.
Then our poor RBs. Goodson and Vaughan did well last week, but that was against the 31st ranked D in the league and with Wharton in for part of the game. I’m petrified for the RBs this week.
When we’re creamed tomorrow, I won’t blame St. Pierre. It starts at the top with Richardson, and trickles all the way down to Fox. But once you get to the field, it is the O-line’s fault. I give the blame to Richardson, Hurney, Davidson, and Fox NOW for going so cheap by bringing in people from daiper duty and waivers (Clowney’s turned out alright though). But at the beginning of the season, no one could have predicted EXACTLY how bad the season would be. Everyone thought that the O-line was going to be the most solid unit on the field, and they’ve turned out to be the weakest link. People thought that our biggest issue would be with the new starters and the rookies, but by-and-large, they’re outplaying our veterans. I seriously love Connor (so sad he’s out for the season), Anderson, Nic Harris (he had good and bad moments last week, but I think he’ll advance pretty quickly), Gettis, LaFell (he learned how to use his hands!!!), Hardy, and Pugh. I still say the verdict is out on Clausen. I’ve been most worried with the fumbles, but he’s been better with that recently, and I can’t blame the guy for being anxious to get the ball quickly so he can separate himself from the line as soon as possible). I say the verdict’s still out on Armanti Edwards, too. We’ve barely seen him since pre-season, and the guy’s had A LOT thrown at him.
Anyway, yeah. St. Pierre, best of luck. For everyone who is of any religion/spirituality, pray for the guy (and the rest of the team).
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