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Around SBN: Will Rhymes 'Fine' After Being Hit By Pitch And Fainting

Sizing Up the Panthers Free Agent Class of 2011

As we all know, the Panthers have a number of important decisions coming up next year.  Not including the guys on the practice squad, the Panthers have close to 12 free agents contracts expiring next year.  And I wanted to spend a little time to discuss the situation the situations surrounding each of these players.

Matt Moore - Matt Moore came into the picture as the starter after a terrific finish to last year's season in place of Jake Delhoome, but the recent injury to his right shoulder with a torn labrum not only makes his resigning questionable, it could sideline his entire career.  Just to get an idea about the seriousness of this kind of injury, here's a few names to think about:  Rich Gannon, Tim Couch, Anthony Wright, Jay Fiedler, Chris Redman, Giovanni Carmazzi, Ryan Leaf and Chad Pennington.  All of these ex-quarterbacks suffered a torn labrum and were unable to come back afterward.  Pennington also tore his rotator cuff as well and after rushing back 4 months later, re-injured it.

The list of quarterbacks who came back from a torn labrum?  So far there have been only 3:  Drew Brees, Brian Griese, and Kelly Holcomb.  Griese was never as good as he was after the injury, but Holcomb was able to make a good comeback and we all know that Drew Brees can still play.

So what does this mean for Moore?  The odds are certainly stacked against him. Combined with his poor performance this year (whether you blame him for it or not), it's unlikely that he'll get a starting job anywhere. The one silver lining, as I mentioned on CSRadio, is that if David Carr can still find a job in this league, Matt Moore should be able to find one.

My take:  Even if he's able to come back, I don't expect the Panthers to resign him.  The needs just don't fit. If we are going to commit to a young quarterback (whether it's Clausen, Pike, or someone in the 2011 draft), it'd be better to pick up a veteran who has had more starting experience to help with their development.

Star-divide



DeAngelo Williams - I've made it no secret that DeAngelo Williams is probably my favorite Panther.  He is an elusive, powerful, and very fast running back who now holds the following Panthers records:  career rushing total (4,211), single season rushing total (1515), single season rushing touchdown record (18), single season total touch down record (20).  He has been compared to running back greats such as Barry Sanders, O.J. Simpson, and Jim Brown.

To me, resigning Williams and paying him like the top 5 back (because he is) is simply a no brainer. Some people worry about the tread on his tires though, as running backs tend to have the shortest NFL careers of any position.  However, consider this...  DeAngelo only has 851 careers through this season (5 years).  For comparison, Adrain Peterson has 1095 through 3 years, Chris Johnson has 787 through 3 years, and Steven Jackson has 1720 carries through 10 years.  If Jackson can still produce out a high level after 10 years, DeAngelo certainly has the potential to.

My take:  Resign him to a 5 year deal, at least.  We have the space and this kind of talent isn't the type you find everyday.

Bonus Take:  Sign Jonathan Stewart to a similar deal, locking both players up for the foreseeable future. It's expensive, and a bit of a luxury, but both are proven backs who deserve it.

Jeff King - An excellent blocker with decent hands, Jeff King has been nothing if not consistent.  He has been serviceable in the run game and in the pass game when needed (logging over 100 catches for 880 yards in the past 4 seasons).  The problem we seem to have with tight ends though is that they are all very specialized and King is by far the best blocker of the trio, but doesn't have the same kind of hands as say Rosario.  But you have to wonder sometimes if it's ability or opportunity that robs our TEs from being playmakers.

My take:  Dependable players like this just tend to stick with the Panthers (see Brad Hoover and Nick Goings).  I doubt he will command a great deal of money from the team and I'm not sure it would be worthwhile to go sign a more expensive tight end.  However, with Rosario also being in the mix, it might be better to sign one guy who can fill both roles instead.

Dante Rosario - See above.

Ryan Kalil - Our Pro-bowl center who continues to get better.  It was dumb luck more than anything that we took Kalil in the 2007 draft.  At the time, we already had a capable center in Justin Hartwig, but as Kalil slipped into the 2nd round, the Panthers pulled the trigger and he's become a stalwart on our offensive line since 2008.

My take:  No reason not to resign him.  We certainly don't have anyone capable behind him.

Charles Johnson - This may not be the breakout year that Johnson was hoping for, but he has been good through the 2010 season.  So far, he has recorded 3.5 sacks and logged 26 tackles in his first year as a starter and has definitely been our most reliable defensive end thus far.  The real problem at this position though is that there is no one behind him to take his place.  Everette Brown has yet to show the flash from the preseason and Greg Hardy is a rookie, although he has shown some flashes.  Also, if we lose anyone from our defensive line, I would say Tyler Brayton would be a casualty before Charles Johnson.

My take:  Another guy that we should resign simply because he's dependable and probably won't command a lot of money in the market.  Right now, he's the better of our two starting defensive ends and unless we're thinking about letting him walk to start either Brown or Hardy next year opposite Brayton, I don't see why we shouldn't resign him.

Ed Johnson - Defensive Tackle is an awkward position for us at the moment.  We have no clear starters, and it seems like almost everyone is goin to be a free agent within the next two seasons.  Ed Johnson I can't really make up my mind about.  His rookie year (2007), he played exceptionally for the Colts, registering 41 solo tackles a sack and a forced fumble.  Legal troubles sidelined his career and he never did anything since then until coming to Carolina where he now has 11 tackles, 2 passes defended, and an interception.

My take:  There are probably going to be better free agents to resign next year that could have an immediate impact.  I'm glad that Johnson was able to resurrect his career, but I'm not sure keeping him is that essential.  I would say let him walk.

Nick Hayden - The other DT hitting free agency, I kinda put him in the same boat as Ed Johnson.  Neither one of them are really standing out.  Through 6 games, Hayden has registered 12 tackles and he got the nod to start ahead of Ed Johnson.  Whether we resign him or not largely will depend on whether or not he can make the most of his time as a starter.  He did help limit Steven Jackson to 59 yards, but we were gashed pretty badly against the Saints last week, and they don't even have their top 2 running backs.

My take:  Like with Johnson, there will probably be better free agents available who can make an immediate impact and in that event, I think Hayden can probably walk.  If there's no one to resign, he'll probably be a cheap body and hopefully we get someone in the draft to eventually replace him.

Thomas Davis - Sad news of the week was that Davis would not be making a return this year.  On the other hand, it was reported that the Panthers intend to resign him and so it's just a question about how much and for how long.

My take: It's practically a done deal already.  Davis will be back next season.

James Anderson - The bright spot of our 2010 season has been the break out year by James Anderson.  With Jon Beason moving over to the WLB, teams have been running more plays to the SLB and Anderson has stepped up to the plate and hit a home run.  How's this for a linebacker setup:  MLB Jon Beason, WLB Thomas Davis, SLB James Anderson.  Pardon me while I wipe off the drool...  He does make Davis a little bit expendable, but since it's already known that the Panthers plan to resign Davis, there's no worry about that.

My take:  He should be another lock to resign.  He's having an amazing year and may in fact be our defensive player of the year.  No reason not to resign him after the performance he's shown us this year.

Bonus take:  While we're at it...  Give Beason an extension to lock up our linebacker corp for the next 5+ years.


Jamar Williams - We traded Chris Harris to pick up Jamar Williams with the idea that he would compete for a start at SLB.  But unfortunately, Jamar Williams was injured during training camp and hadn't made much of an impact.  James Anderson has solidified his role as the SLB.  Add to the fact that Dan Connor is under contact through 2013 and that Eric Norwood is a rookie...  Jamar Williams becomes expendable.

My take:  With the depth we have at linebacker (once everyone gets back), there's not much room for Jamar Williams here.  He's been injured off and on, which hasn't helped him much, and I think he can get a chance to start elsewhere.  I'm guessing he won't be a Panther next year, but I hope someone will give him a chance.

Richard Marshall - Our other starting cornerback splashed onto the scene in 2006 as a rookie and made parting with Ken Lucas much easier.  He may not be the shutdown corner that is Darrelle Revis, but I think people are quick to judge him.  Our defensive scheme makes the job of the cornerback much easier when we can get consistent pressure on the quarterback; pressure that simply hasn't been consistent this year in any fashion.  That makes Richard Marshall's performance look worse that it probably is.  Sure, he has his occasional blown coverages (as does Gamble), but it's hard to argue with some of his production numbers.  He's logged 13 INTs over his career here, (6 in the last 2 years) and has helped anchor a pass defense that has been in the top of the league for the last 2 years now.

My take:  I think we should keep him.  I'm not sure if he's worth "Chris Gamble" money (I'm not sure if Gamble is worth "Chris Gamble" money...) but we should make every effort to resign the guy.  If we don't someone else will.  The real question here is whether or not he wants to stay here.  He was very unhappy about his contract situation this off-season and to be honest, I don't really blame him.  Hopefully the two sides can come to a consensus.

That wraps up the Free Agent out look for the off season.  What are your takes on the various people we have hitting the market?  I know there may be a bit of contention with guys like Richard Marshall, but other than that what are your thoughts?

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Great Summary

Rec’d.

I strongly agree with take on DeAngelo Williams and it will come as no surprise that he is my favorite Panther too. I only take exception to the Richard Marshall case. If Richard Marshall is looking for a Gamble size contract, it is not worth it. We have a shot at picking up one of two excellent corners in Amukamara or Peterson. I think either of them could walk in and contribute immediately.

by pieterzen on Nov 10, 2010 10:14 AM EST reply actions  

I just think Marshall overvalues his own talent... Nobody took him with a 2nd round tender!

And he hasn’t been better or worse than last year. He’s a decent CB, but not worth any haggling over money. Mid-market offer maybe, take it or leave it.
And I’m all for getting one of the two top CBs in the draft. Both look like true “shut down” corners that can start immediately. With Gamble and Munnerlyn, along with Martin, Godfrey, and Pugh, we could be extremely good on the back 7 with or without Marshall.

Where there’s a will… I want to be in it.

by Rick Bates on Nov 10, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks

Wanted something that was less gloom and doom and more looking forward.

Honestly, Marshall is the biggest point of contention most people will probably have. The reason I say we should try to resign him is because he has been solid while he’s been here. No reason to not try. If he walks, then sure we could easily replace him with one of the two CBs coming out.

by aceofsween on Nov 10, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree completely.

If he wants Gamble money, go ahead and let him walk, let Munnerlynn and Peterson/Amukamara replace him. But there’s no reason to not make an offer.

by Flowing Willow on Nov 10, 2010 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Jamar Williams

If fully recovered he should return.

by Caro2daheart on Nov 10, 2010 1:49 PM EST reply actions  

Agreed on Some, not so on others.

I doubt Jason Williams, or A. Hodge are gonna be back. J. Williams should return if nothing else for depth. Tell me now it would be nice to still have J. Williams healthy he is a solid LB with decent upside that can play all three LB positions. He has gotten hurt again and should be resigned cheaply by the Panthers our favorite thing Saving Money.

As for D-Will, Beason(eventually 1 yr remaining on current contract), J. Stewart(evenutally-2 years remaining on current contract) Kalil, T. Davis – I will be bold as to say they are all locks to be resigned. Even with resigning all of them LTD’s, Panthers should still have a significant amount of cash to sign two DT’s perhaps a better backup DE then T. Brayton whom has had a really ho-hum quite season so far plus Brayton contract get’s more expensive after this season , I may be wrong on that one.

Not Locks:
C. Johnson, E. Johnson, R. Marshall, D. Rosario, J. King; D. Landri, M. Moore

Reasoning for C. Johnson not being a lock is really he is a poor man’s M. Rucker in my book. The guy always seems to be close to sacks, stops for losses, and lastly is simply to slow. Does have decent size and is way above being serviceable but Panthers are gonna be looking for new blood on the D-Line after this year so nobody’s job is safe at this point. R. Marshall cannot play one on one with any receiver or any caliber in the league. Watch the game films / games period on Sun. C. Munnerlyn is seeing more and more snaps against team’s #2 WR and making better plays. Marshall is always out of position and way overvalues his own abilities. The guy must think he is Revis or Samuel or something. Plus is we win another game or two LOL, then we should be drafting second or third overall and the next two best available players on most draft boards are P. Peterson Jr. CB out of LSU, and Prince A. out of Nebraska Sr. CB. If we decide to keep our top pick then resigning Marshall or a free agent CB for that matter is a much less of a priority. For all I care Marshall can follow Fox to Dallas, NY, or lastly Cleveland or wherever Fox goes after this season.

As much as I dislike Moore and nobody on the blog should not know that I am sorry about his T. Labrum, very very seriousl injury and if the DAMN OLINE WAS ANY GOOD HE WOULD STILL BE HEALTHY. Anyways no way he returns Panthers are commited to Clausen, Pike and hopefully a veteran QB next season. Panthers may also draft another QB in the lower rounds, no you will not see A. Luck in Charlotte next season. If Panthers somehow get the #1 overall pick we should trade down and acquire multiple picks in the draft. Another team’s first round, a second rounder and a 4th plus additional pick next draft in 2012 would work for me. Although I may be over valuing this year’s draft and lastly the #1 overall pick going into a looming strike year. Notice above I mentioned we will be more than likely drafting second or third depending on final season record this year. Only time I would trade down would be if we landed the #1 overall pick. If we have the second or third I stay with it and not trade .

Go Panthers

Great article aceofsween

by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Nov 10, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh yeah

J. Anderson is such a lock to be resigned I forget to mention him in my response he is having a beast of a year a living up to his 3rd round draft status at last. N. Hayden is a goner just a soon as the season is over, he too can go and find work where Fox is, just is not gonna be in Charlotte, NC after the next eight weeks are expired on the current calender.

by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Nov 10, 2010 5:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree with most if not all of this

Especially with resigning DeAngelo and even extending JStew. Most people seem to be in favor of moving forward with just one of these two backs, but I think it would be a mistake….look at the position we are in now…signing guys off the street. These problems would be magnified if we only had one proven RB.

One way or another, we need at least one impact player on our defensive line, preferably someone who can pressure a QB.

In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.

by ERL on Nov 10, 2010 3:44 PM EST reply actions  

Oh, and not to nitpick, ace

But Wahle was a guard…our center was Justin Hartwig, who was coming off an injury when Kalil was drafted (Geoff Hangartner filled in some for Hartwig in both 2006 & 2007). After another mediocre season, Hartwig was released (or not resigned), and he was picked up by the Steelers…where he was part of a SB winning team that was characterized as having “the worst offensive line to ever win a SB.”

In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.

by ERL on Nov 10, 2010 3:55 PM EST reply actions  

Thanks for the clarification

I actually spent a good 15 minutes trying to figure out who it was that Kalil replaced because for some reason I couldn’t remember for the life of me… I originally thought it was Wahle, as he and Hartwig both left in that offseason.

Actually now that I think about it some more, didn’t Kalil step into play Guard some as well? Maybe that’s where I’m getting the confusion from.

by aceofsween on Nov 10, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure if Ryan played guard as a rookie

But when I read the question, my first thought was that he did…spot duty in a game or two.

In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.

by ERL on Nov 10, 2010 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

And here I thought the Panthers website was useless...
2007
Played in five games with three starts…Made two starts at right guard and one at center…Did not play in 11 games../

by aceofsween on Nov 10, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

All but useless...He's an itty bitty guard though...

can’t remember how he held up in those two starts, especially on the right side.

In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.

by ERL on Nov 10, 2010 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I am in disagreement with Williams

You can have a servicable RB that will get the job done without the big contract. They need major help on the O-line or the running game will stall, even if Barry Sanders was back there. I say sign one of the two, preferably Stewart, and just let Goodson or Sutton or another free agent be your back-ups, RB’s are easy to find. With no O-line help, we have seen these two RB’s fail hard, so why break the bank for one of them? They are clearly not making a difference now.

"It's a bad day to have a bad day" - Coach John Fox of the Carolina Panthers

by D.W.G. on Nov 10, 2010 4:33 PM EST reply actions  

You can't let players like Williams just 'walk'

Sure, if you have a good O-line then you can throw almost any RB in there and find moderate success, but if you put a fresh DWill and a fresh JStew back there, good things are just waiting to happen.

Williams has proved to be more valuable than Stewart this season.

In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.

by ERL on Nov 10, 2010 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Break the bank?

They will have tons of cap room next year. In all likelihood we will sign 1 or at most 2 big name FA next season. Most likely we will get line help (both sides). We would also add a FA QB but I don’t think that would be a huge cap hit.

By the way, for all the criticism, despite the atrocious blocking and play-calling, D-Will is averaging 4.1 yards per carry. Despite playing in the leagues worst offense going against 8 and 9 man fronts when we suck at throwing the ball.

The Panthers almost have no choice about signing him. Letting him walk would be the most ridiculous thing to do – he could go to Tampa Bay and then we will be watching Josh Freeman and DeAngelo Williams kill us for the next 5 years. It would be as good as killing this franchise.

You could tag and trade him but that is bound to be messy and that tag would probably cost nearly $9 million. Just sign the guy.

by pieterzen on Nov 10, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions  

The only two I feel absolutely have to be resigned

Are D Will and Davis. James Anderson and Charles Johnson are both very close

by Smitty89 on Nov 10, 2010 5:21 PM EST reply actions  

I don't agree with Davis over Anderson.

Davis may just get reinjured again and have to retire.

stuff 'bout stuff.

by silver82blade on Nov 10, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Which could happen to any of the 53 men on the roster.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace

My Panthers Blog | My Twitter Page

by BW Smith on Nov 10, 2010 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

But the other 52 men

aren’t coming back from two ACL tears. Anderson has showed more than enough this season and the little he played of last season that he deserves a starting spot in the league. Why not let that spot be here?

"The game of life is a lot like football. You have to tackle your problems, block your fears, and score your points when you get the opportunity." - Lewis Grizzard

by ThePanthers! on Nov 10, 2010 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

What does resigning Anderson have to do with anything?

Anderson, Beason, Davis. They all 3 can start at the same time…

by aceofsween on Nov 10, 2010 9:16 PM EST up reply actions  

The question then becomes...

What do we do with Connor? He was playing pretty lights out at Mike for us…do we stuff him back down the depth chart? Personally I’d like to see what Anderson or Connor can do at Will, and shuffle that way….I am a big fan of T.Davis, but I just don’t see him coming back from 2 ACL tears healthy…we’ve got a lot of talent at LB, and if they’re all healthy, we’ve got a lot of depth…but I’m not behind letting Connor waste away on the depth chart…

by maelstrom on Nov 10, 2010 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

An injured but proven effective OLB in Davis, or a 'maybe he can' OLB in Connor?

I love Dan Connor too, but he’s a victim of circumstance being a darn good MLB behind one of the best MLBs in the NFL.

I think we should shop Connor during the draft and see if we can get a pick for him. Someone will see his value as a middle linebacker and give him the shot to start he deserves.

Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator

by James Dator on Nov 10, 2010 10:31 PM EST up reply actions  

True Aussie. N. Irving would be a welcomed draft addition to replace a traded Conner

I could have swore that his contract was up guess I was looking on a older site for contracts. Anyways shopping Conner is a great idea, also ILB from NCSU named N. Irving guy can really hit and could be available in the early third round.

6-1 235lbs entering senior season
40time: 4.80

But they guy hits like a mack truck seen it in person, definately someone for the Panthers to look at for depth !

by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Nov 10, 2010 10:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Totally agree with you.

Beason has been taken out of the position he excels at, the MLB. Davis was the best WLB in the league when he went down, and our only concern then was at the SAM. Now Anderson is playing that as well as any 4-3 SAM there is.

Connor is good, but not as the level of any of those 3, provided they’re healthy.

by bigdavis on Nov 10, 2010 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

There's always the chance...

That Connor is happy where he is?

What if he enjoys backing up those 3?

by aceofsween on Nov 11, 2010 8:19 AM EST up reply actions  

If he's happy then I'd love to keep him

But he was talking about his excitement in getting to play and the kid is just a flat out football player.

I can’t imagine riding the pine and playing ST has been too thrilling for him.

Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator

by James Dator on Nov 11, 2010 10:21 AM EST up reply actions  

I think we might even be able to get a second round pick for him.

Norwood, Harris, and pick up another vet, I feel pretty confident about that depth. Maybe even draft a guy, we have a good track record with LB’s.

by Flowing Willow on Nov 11, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Difference Is ,.

T. Davis when healthy is a almost certain Pro Bowl LB, where as Conner is a tackling machine given the opponent but in other games he disappears. Conner is a slightly average to good NFL player where as T. Davis is a great soon to be Pro Bowl type LB.

Give me a T. Davis on one leg (vs) D. Conner any day of the week. Conner cannot get to the QB either which was a major knock on him out of college not to mention his lack of speed to play outside. If you play Conner outside you will be sorry. T. Davis is lock to return Conner is doubtful, I thought both Conner and D. Landri (DT) contracts where up at the end of this season as well.

Sorry just my view.

by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Nov 10, 2010 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

…Na’il Diggs wasn’t exactly a speed guy, and yet he was an outside linebacker. Not saying Connor would be better than Davis outside, just saying that a 4.4 40 guy isn’t necessary to play QB. And given that we don’t usually blitz terribly much anyway, his inability to get to the QB is minimized. I guess I’d just rather have my cake and eat it too…especially when we’ve got a guy who is coming back from two major injuries suffered back to back. Although I suppose neither Connor nor Davis have any problems with being put on IR, they’re there so often…

by maelstrom on Nov 10, 2010 11:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Fail.

…that should read “to play LB.”. Not QB.

by maelstrom on Nov 11, 2010 12:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

The most interesting impact

Who’s the next coach, and what will he want to do?

Some of the signings are true no-brainers, like Kalil. But a new coach may come in and decide that Williams can help the team the most by bringing in another first round pick.

by Cyberjag on Nov 10, 2010 5:23 PM EST reply actions  

Agreed

But you would still have to sign him. Unless you think you can tag and trade him which is almost impossible.

by pieterzen on Nov 10, 2010 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Except there’s no chance we’ll get a first round pick for Williams, or even a second round pick.

by SlayerGhaleon on Nov 10, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I think we could manage a second rounder

plus another conditional pick that could be as high as a third rounder.

by Flowing Willow on Nov 10, 2010 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

we will definitely not get anywhere near a 2nd and a 3rd

look at his current season and then look at other players, like Randy Moss, who only went for a 3rd… Williams may be superb in our eyes, but his current year dictates his contract

by vitzeng on Nov 11, 2010 3:05 AM EST up reply actions  

What did the Raiders trade for Richard Seymour?

First round pick I believe. Williams is also not old, not a cancer, and won’t be traded mid-season. You’re right, we value him more, personally I think he’s worth at least a first round pick. But you also underestimate how much the rest of the league values him. How much would Adrian Peterson, Chris Johnson, MJD, or Ray Rice compel in a trade? Williams is on the same level as them.

by Flowing Willow on Nov 11, 2010 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

first off, the raiders are the raiders

they are run by al davis, the same guy who took heyward-bey over crabtree… so unless we trade with them, don’t expect anyone to be fooled that easily

and Williams is definitely not as good as AP and CJ2k, he is about the same as MJD and Ray Rice, but they’re definitely better this season. Just because Williams was the best back in the league for one year doesn’t mean that he’s going to command a first round pick. You’d have to take into consideration his age, the contract that he’ll want (probably 4 or 5 years), and his current stats/ability. Running backs have already become a dime-a-dozen, so if we got a 2nd for Williams I would be very happy and surprised that Hurney is good enough to pull that off

by vitzeng on Nov 11, 2010 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait what...

Williams isn’t as good as Adrian Peterson?

Go look at the 2008 season (the last time the Panthers had any form of competent offense, also APs “best” year). Williams might have had fewer yards (about 250), but he also had fewer carries because he split a lot of time with Jonathan Stewart. Williams didn’t fumble once the entire year, his first fumble didn’t even come until his 3rd year. Despite that, Williams led the league in TDs and 20+ yards runs.

If any other player fumbled as much as Adrian Peterson, they would be benched. He’s fumbled the ball 20 times in 4 years, making DeShaun Foster look like a secure ball carrier. Furthermore, he hasn’t really had that much more production than Williams, despite having a ton more carries (1051 compare to 842).

by aceofsween on Nov 12, 2010 5:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with what you're saying... but the NFL doesn't work that way

I agree, you agree that Williams = Peterson, or that D-Will could even be better… but NFL teams wont give him the benefit of the doubt.

Instead, he’ll be viewed as a good player in a bad situation and most of the time those guys (Randy Moss to Patriots) who don’t have immediately impressive recent stats have their value fall through the floor at trade time.

Follow me on Twitter! @James_Dator

by James Dator on Nov 12, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I don't care how Williams is valued by other teams

I know what his value is (and I’m allowed to be biased in this case).

by aceofsween on Nov 12, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

look at their careers...

Williams<AP and understandably you can disagree on the grounds that their offense if better than ours overall, but teams are going to value him in a practical “what did happen” sense, not a “what if this happened” sense

and if you look at your statement,

If any other player fumbled as much as Adrian Peterson, they would be benched

that should indicate to you how good he is… he is an irreplaceable cog in their offense

by vitzeng on Nov 13, 2010 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

To me, that doesn't make him better

Just because he plays despite his fumbles doesn’t make him a better player. If Williams was in a single back set like AP, he would have blown APs numbers out of the water. People oogle over all APs yards and his touch downs, but honestly, the guy fumbles too much and his yards are a product of getting the ball more often, not because he runs better when he has it.

by aceofsween on Nov 13, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

i think this argument has been blurred slightly between who is the better back

and who is the better value back…. I still think AP is better, but i can understand his statistics being attributed to the rest of his offense… the point remains though, that AP would definitely garner more in a trade, and I don’t think you will ever see Williams get better stats than AP ever again

by vitzeng on Nov 13, 2010 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll give you that AP might have a higher trade value...

But that still doesn’t make him a better back. Of course I don’t see the difference between “better back” and “better value back.” AP has more production because he has more opportunities, it’s as simple as that.

by aceofsween on Nov 13, 2010 9:03 PM EST up reply actions  

"he is an irreplaceable cog in their offense"

Except virtually every 3rd down when he’s on the sideline.

by patosan on Nov 14, 2010 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Debate Rule #1: Never use the Raiders' trade history as a defense.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace

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by BW Smith on Nov 11, 2010 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Now there's a plan... :-)

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace

My Panthers Blog | My Twitter Page

by BW Smith on Nov 11, 2010 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

haha. :)

But seriously, there are always going to be teams you can fleece. The Raiders are just the most infamous.

by Flowing Willow on Nov 12, 2010 10:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Draft Needs:

Panthers needs:
DT, CB, TE, QB

In my book

by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Nov 10, 2010 5:39 PM EST reply actions  

Of course more than likely DT is gonna be solved in free agency however J. Jenkins out of Clemson should still be their in the 3rd round and he is solid pickup if nothing more then for depth.

by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Nov 10, 2010 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

O-Line, O-Line, O-Line. That's what we need more than anything else.

Nothing happens offensively without the guys up front to block.

That’s why we’re in the predicament we’re in now.

by bigdavis on Nov 10, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Are there any real good prospects coming out?

I’ve heard a lot about other positions, but this might be one of the first years I haven’t heard much about Oline guys. We really need to find another Travelle Wharton type of guy who can cover the right side.

by aceofsween on Nov 10, 2010 6:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I checked WalterFootball.com, which has a Mock Draft up for 2011.

He has 7 of the top 16 picks coming from DE/DT, but none from O-linemen until #21.

The 3 he has going in the bottom half of the first round are:

Derek Sherrod, OT, Mississippi State
Joseph Barksdale, OT, LSU
Anthony Castonzo, OT, Boston College

http://walterfootball.com/draft2011_1.php

by bigdavis on Nov 10, 2010 11:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Barksdale is a very good LT.

Not as good as some of the prospects that have come out recently, but he’s pretty decent.

by Flowing Willow on Nov 11, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Problem IS

This upcoming draft is nowhere as deep as the one before so Panthers if Hurney returns is gonna work out well b/c drafting the best players available is gonna work. Draft is not super deep especially after first and second rounds according to many of the mock draft sites.

You make a good point, but Panthers do need a starting RG no doubt b/c D. Robinson is never gonna to amount to anything more then a trip to the drive thru window, and Schwartz is not even a spot starter that has been proven, along with Bernadeau and lastly G. Williams. Panthers backup OLine is gonna look completely different next season, drafting M. Pouncey C/G FLA, R. Hudson G/ FSU, M. Cannon G/OT TCU, or if you wanna go OT route how about G. Carimi OT WIS, C. Boling GA, D.Love ARK, etc….

Come to think of it Panthers Offense has so many problems I feel that trading down and getting a bunch of picks is gonna be the better route to take. We just have so many problems on the OL, DL to fix. Also would not hurt to get a DT to stop the damn run and another rush the passer. C. Ryan of the Rams (although on IR this year could be a good pass rusher in the right system) and P. Soliali (forgive the spelling the 355lb man beast from Miami would be a great addition). Both of these guys to really help the Cats weak front four for sure.

by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Nov 10, 2010 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Would settle for a quality DT instead

So our secondary isn’t left flapping in the wind almost every game.

by patosan on Nov 14, 2010 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Just throwing out an idea...

…with Colt McCoy all but solidifying his claim on Cleveland’s offense, odds are Delhomme is looking for a job this offseason…what are the odds that we welcome him back in Carolina as a veteran backup, with a backup’s contract (not the huge extension we signed him to a few years ago)?…he’s a veteran QB to help with Clausen and Pike…he’d be cheap, and he’s still pretty well liked by the fans (playoff and 09 meltdown notwithstanding)…

by maelstrom on Nov 10, 2010 8:17 PM EST reply actions  

Not a bad idea honestly

Jake’s always been a leader in the locker room. He was the one who went up to Beason and told him that he needed to step up as the leader on defense. Ever since then, it’s been the Jon Beason show. I think having him in your corner for one of our young guys at quarterback would be beneficial.

by aceofsween on Nov 10, 2010 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

No Delhomme, S. Hill I would welcome in however or a Bulger type or D. Dixon

That ship has sailed and when Fox leaves Delhomme will not be coming back to Carolina period. Even if Delhomme was on this team are record would still be the same.

Bringing in a veteran such as S. Hill who still has some tread on the tire and can fill in and has spot started with some success is what this team needs. J. Delhomme is one year away from being out of the NFL all together.

A M. Bulger, D. Dixon, type would also be welcomed in as well.

J. Delhomme was the best QB in Panthers history and lead us to our only Super Bowl and a couple of NFC championship games (winning one) but he is shell of what he used to be. He cannot throw the deep ball anymore and he has been done ever since he threw out his arm against the Falcons.

Why do you think the Browns are starting C. McCoy and not S. Wallace or Delhomme (granted both have been banged up but still).

by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Nov 10, 2010 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

There’s more to having a veteran QB than if he could’ve gotten us wins…I’m thinking more of a “mentor for our young rookies who desperately need someone to turn to for advice and learning”…furthermore, we’re going to have a new HC, and presumably OC…maybe Delhomme can’t throw a deep bomb like he used to, but what if we have a west coast offense? Short, timing throws…he definitely still has the arm to do so. I’d rather see another QB come in, but Delhomme is definitely a possibility to be on the market next year…I say we give him a look and a workout at any rate, just to see what he DOES have left…and personally, I’m not sure that Dennis Dixon would be a veteran presence that we need, since he’s basically in the same boat as Matt Moore…got his chances because of injury, did some good (but nothing great), and is now on IR…he is mobile, but so what?

Shaun Hill might be a good compromise though. He definitely showed some chutzpah stepping in for Stafford and producing…and I always though he got a raw deal in San Fran…hell, at this point I’d take Josh McCown…a bit more mobile than anyone we’ve got, experience (although he hasn’t really played for a “winner”)…we just need someone who has been around, seen the defenses and that the speed of the game has slowed down for…to help our young guys who DESPERATELY need it.

by maelstrom on Nov 10, 2010 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

the problem with Delhomme is I don't think he's a good mentor for football, maybe for leadership

Delhomme wasn’t that “football IQ” quarterback, he played on instinct. He also had bad habits and a very antiquated throwing motion. He may be a good leader, but he wasn’t on the list of QB’s looked at for their skill at their position.

I actually liked that a lot about the Panthers, but its getting harder and harder to win with a game manager with the offense/passing bias the league continues to implement.

by ppalm on Nov 11, 2010 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

will never happen

i think it’s a bad idea. delhomme has not played much better in cleveland than he did here, and he is hurt a lot. despite that, he couldb a good back-up, maybe. but i say it will never happen because i can’t see the new coach making that move. that would’ve been like fox going out and getting beuerlein when he saw weinke wasn’t the real deal. if hurney i around still, it will b him admitting he made mistake by letting jake go. so basically i’m saying it will never happen because of pride and egos.

by usana_gaines on Nov 11, 2010 4:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Wouldn't mind bringing Jake in as a backup

But I guess with our current situation (no proven starter) it probably wouldn’t be the best time for it.

by R-F on Nov 11, 2010 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

two considerations

there are 2 things that need to be considered when looking at this list

1.) who the next head coach is gonna be and what his offensive/defensive philosophies are
2.) when we go 1-15 this year and all our team chemistry has been totally destroyed, how many of our current players are even going to want to play for us next year? Don’t assume that this current debacle won’t have any effect on them. I won’t be surprised if a lot of them go wherever Fox goes

by mablock on Nov 11, 2010 2:27 AM EST reply actions  

We don't know enough

to do anything more than speculate. Your first point is very relevant. Without knowing who the Head Coach is and how much control they will have, it is difficult to project FA moves and mock drafts.

The second point is a good one but applies only to a few players. For instance, the likes of Ryan Kalil and DeAngelo Williams will get big bucks because everyone has seen what they are capable of over multiple seasons – they have a national reputation. But most of the other guys don’t have much of a reputation and won’t be able to secure the kind of offers their likely to get from the Panthers. The average fan does not know who James Anderson or Charles Godfrey are. Most NFL managers know that when a defense is on the field for 2/3rds of the game, defensive players can put up great tackle numbers. I think we risk some players leaving but only the ones who have national reputation.

by pieterzen on Nov 11, 2010 10:14 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm sure GM's know who Anderson and Godfrey are

But I do think your comment does bear some significance – tackling numbers will of course be inflated when the D is on the field alot.

With that being said, Anderson has really impressed me of late – not sure we want to make him an offer that he might command on the open market considering how talented our other LB’s are when Davis is healthy.

by R-F on Nov 11, 2010 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

I like Anderson too

It’s not just this season – he did well in Davis’ spot last season as well.

by pieterzen on Nov 11, 2010 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

the next great carolina quarterback

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1011/nfl-2011-draft-preview-top-10-quarterbacks/content.1.html

i don’t understand some of those guys being higher than newton or pryor, and i think kellen moore is the best passer i college football, easy, but he’s only 6’0" and about 185…the same size colt brennan.

by usana_gaines on Nov 11, 2010 4:06 AM EST reply actions  

I like Luck alot

But I think the Bills might take him with the #1 pick (if they get it). And I wouldn’t be excited about any other QB with a top 2 pick other than Luck.

by R-F on Nov 11, 2010 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

They'll probably trade down half a dozen spots to get back that second rounder

and then pick the best available, such as Pat Peterson or one of the better pass rushers.

In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.

by ERL on Nov 11, 2010 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Tough to get someone to trade up

At least it has been in the past with how much guaranteed money you got to give the #1 pick. Maybe that changes with a new rookie cap?

But as of now, a ton of teams would love to trade down but never find a taker.

by R-F on Nov 11, 2010 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I bet the Bills trade back, like ERL

The Bills are the foil of the Panthers – they can score, but their defense can’t stop a high school team. They really need some help on D. The question is who would trade up for a QB.

by ppalm on Nov 11, 2010 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't see it myself

Perhaps it’s their win/loss records but I never thought that should matter much.

I guess that’s why I am not an NFL scout.

by pieterzen on Nov 11, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Luck could be the exception

People who know how to evaluate QBs better than I ever could say that Andrew Luck could potentially grade out at a 4.78/5.00 which would be the highest QB grade a player has gotten since Peyton Manning (4.82/5.00).

Most of the time the #1 overall QB falls somewhere in the 4.40-4.60 range. Locker looks to grade around 4.50’s which would make him a solid #1 any other year.

I can’t speak for the others.

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by James Dator on Nov 12, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Do those numbers have any context?

For example, Peyton has was graded the highest since he was drafted and it looks like they got that one right as he has easily been the best quarterback overall for the last decade, but what about other players in that regard?

by aceofsween on Nov 12, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I like Luck, I really do.

I think he will be a successful QB. But the fact he hasn’t faced a lick of pressure all year worries me. That is going to change once he gets to the NFL, that is far more certain than Luck as a prospect.

by Flowing Willow on Nov 12, 2010 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

General Thoughts

This probably is a little more about drafting than free agency, but it still pertains to both.

In my opinion, our first needs are (and again, the situation with any position will be subject to a new head coach’s desires, likes/dislikes, and philosophy)…

1. A veteran QB with (1) game/skill/arm/legs/general mobility still left in him, (2) a high football IQ, and (3) mentoring ability. The Panthers are the only NFL team that I follow, so I really don’t know who to suggest. I’m guessing Moore will be gone given that it’s the last year of his contract and with the severe injury he just sustained. Unless Clausen can make the leap from rookie year to 2nd year like Sanchez and Freeman, I’d start the vet before Clausen.

2. O-linemen. Yes. Multiple. For every single position. I don’t care about current contract statuses, or rather the positions are filled through FA or draft picks. I want guaranteed backups for Kalil and Wharton. Gross hasn’t lived up to his reputation this season (he’s allowed way too much pressure on the QB and has too many false starts). And we all know how awful the right side has been. I’m guessing (I don’t have time to look up stats) that our O-line gives up an average of about 2 sacks per game. IMO, it’s just not acceptable.

Number 3 is a 3-way tie…so I’m going to split it.

3a. D-line. Keep Charles Johnson. But I’d like to see him – along with most of the D-line – to keep or increase weight and gain speed by losing fat and gaining muscle. For pure physicality purposes, look at Julius Peppers. The guy is a freaking monster, weighs over 300 pounds, but is lean, muscular, and ridiculously fast.

Hardy needs to start. Period.

I agree about Ed Johnson, Hayden, and Brayton. They can all go. Fill with a mix of FAs and high prospect rookies.

3b. We need a better fullback. I like the idea of trying Connor out at that position. I don’t want to lose him or see him pushed down the depth chart with Davis’s return.

3c. CBs. Both Marshall and Gamble have only seemed so-so to me. It seems like their inconsistencies stem from blown coverages from mental errors, and also (at times) for lack of trying. They just don’t make tackles that they should easily be able to.

4. I think our RBs are good. I agree to re-sign Williams and extend Stewart’s contract. Williams is more elusive, and Stewart is more of an “I’ll knock you out of my way” RB.

5. I completely agree with keeping King and Rosario. Hopefully a new HC (and we better have a new OC) will know how to better utilize them.

6. ANDERSON! That is my boy on defense. He is an absolute no-brainer. Sign that guy to a good contract. All of our LBs are fantastic. I think they’re easily the brightest spot on our team (with the safeties – Godfrey, Martin, AND Pugh). Keep all of them happy with shiny new contracts when their times roll around. And like I said earlier, I don’t want to shop Connor or push him down the chart. Maybe try rotating him with Fiametta at FB and have him ready in case Davis is injured again.

by jamiedk on Nov 12, 2010 11:45 AM EST reply actions  

Just one thing...
I’m guessing (I don’t have time to look up stats) that our O-line gives up an average of about 2 sacks per game. IMO, it’s just not acceptable.

Actually, it’s 3.125 sacks per game, on pace to give up 50 on the season (yes, we’ve given up 25 already).

by aceofsween on Nov 12, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for checking!

I started to go with 3 sacks per game, but I was going to be more generous and not risk overestimating. Good to know the stats on that. Bad that’s it’s about as bad or worse than I thought.

by jamiedk on Nov 12, 2010 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Additionally...

Against us in week 2, Tampa Bay sacked our QBs 4 times. In their 7 other games COMBINED, they have 2 sacks…shows you how pathetic our pass blocking has been. Almost makes me sick.

In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.

by ERL on Nov 12, 2010 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

You're right Jamie. Way too many sacks, and that's not even half the story...

When they’re not being sacked, the QBs are under so much pressure they either make a dumb play (pick), or have to throw the ball away, or there’s no throwing lane (batted down). Then there’s the lack of run blocking as icing on the cake. I don’t know if it’s just the right side, or we need to overhaul the whole damn’d line. I just can’t believe how bad they’ve played, even our probowl guys aren’t getting it done.
You know when I think about it, Russ Grimm might be the right choice for HC. Rebuild the “Hogs,” and everything else falls into place.

I was thinking that I was drinking too much....so I quit thinking

by Rick Bates on Nov 12, 2010 5:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Honestly, I can't figure it out either.

About the only player pulling his enormous weight on that line is Travelle Wharton. He hasn’t given up anything. Even Kalil, who has been 2nd best, has had a few mishaps here and there. It’s not as bad as the right side, but Gross isn’t playing up to his potential either…

by aceofsween on Nov 12, 2010 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Connor's rating

Check out the analysis "Pro Football Focus’ did on Dan Connor – as of Nov 4th – you might be surprised:

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2010/11/04/stories-of-the-season-dan-connor/

FYI, Dan Connor did play FB in HS – his senior year: had 251 carries for 1,807 yards, a 7.2 yard average, and 28 touchdowns …. I think he had 70 TDs overall

by GrooveThang on Nov 13, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Problem is...

He wouldn’t know any of the offensive plays or the reads and blitz pick ups… Not saying he couldn’t learn eventually, but putting a new FB in because the one we have is still learning isn’t going to get us very far.

by aceofsween on Nov 13, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

He might have an advantage on picking up blitzes...

Being a linebacker, he’s used to what blitzes look like on the other side of the ball. It might make the transition to FB easier than other players would have to deal with.

Just a thought. I could be talking out of my ass though…

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace

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by BW Smith on Nov 13, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think you are, b-dub. Seems to me there's a lot of similarity between LB and FB

LB finds the hole and fills it, FB finds the whole and clears it out.
LB finds the blitz lanes to attack, FB finds them to block.
I know it’s not as simple as that, but as I’ve said before, pro scouts often look at college LBs for potential FBs, and there must be a reason for it. John Abbate from Wake was a LB that Houston picked up as a FB, then he got hurt.

I was thinking that I was drinking too much....so I quit thinking

by Rick Bates on Nov 13, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh I'm not saying it couldn't work

But if they were to start him say tomorrow or next week at fullback, I would think he would probably perform pretty poorly.

by aceofsween on Nov 13, 2010 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

He's on IR for the remainder of the year. He's obviously talking about next season when Davis is back

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by Sniff on Nov 13, 2010 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for that, GT. Definitely a good read, and I was surprised...

I knew Connor was playing well, but I wouldn’t have guessed he would be ranked quite that high. I was more surprised with how much they like Charles Johnson.
But back to Connor; he’s having hip surgery. I can’t find any info on the actual injury, although I think I heard broken bone somewhere (??). I’ve seen careers (Bo knows) end from hip injuries, and I’m hoping and praying that isn’t the case for Connor.
In any case, if Davis is anywhere close to what he was when first injured, he has to play WILL. Beason is still the better MIKE (though the difference with Connor isn’t dramatic), and Anderson at SAM has been phenomenal. Where do you put a young, talented ILB like Connor. IDK… maybe Fullback is doable for next year. Yes, he’d have to learn plays and terminology, but so will everybody else when the new coach/staff come in.

I was thinking that I was drinking too much....so I quit thinking

by Rick Bates on Nov 13, 2010 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Nice post...

IMO we’re asking way too much of our secondary this year. When almost any NFL QB has a perfect pocket with regularity, the secondary is going to look bad. If our DL was able to move QBs around more then our secondary would look 100% better.

by patosan on Nov 14, 2010 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Ugh...

I want it to make the O-line sick. I think they literally need to spend 3 hours or so just watching and re-watching and re-watching what they have let happen to our QBs. Play Moore’s concussion and labrum sacks enough, and maybe it will really sink in and the line will get sick enough of their play to do a better job.

by jamiedk on Nov 12, 2010 12:05 PM EST reply actions  

It seems like the coaches might just be saying things like "Youre doing a good job" and "hang in there."

When in reality this teams needs to rent the Drill Sergeant from Full Metal Jacket to come in there and get up in some ass.

How is what they have been doing at all acceptable? I sure hope that everyone is being held accountable, rather than the coaches tiptoeing around the issues so they don’t risk “losing the team.” If they lose the team because they actually start to lay into some guys, then we need a new coaching staff to come in here and clean house. (this is all speculation, clearly…just a thought)

In 2005, Steve Smith became the first player since Washington Redskins' receiver Art Monk in 1984 to lead the NFL in receptions for a team that ran more often than it passed. In Steve Smith we trust.

by ERL on Nov 12, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

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