Carolina Panthers' Monday Morning Optimist- 11/1/10
by James Dator on Nov 1, 2010 8:00 AM EDT
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PrintGood morning Panther faithful. It appears that the Carolina Panthers went trick or treating before dusk on Sunday and the result was a big resounding trick. On a personal note it appears that measuring my enthusiasm for this team while hoping for the best and expecting the worst sadly paid off. I don't think I'm experiencing quite the same heart ache as some are this morning. I think it's safe so assume that the hopes of the Panthers running the table were brought back down to turf on Sunday (apologies for the pun).
Sunday's game was just terrible on so many levels; inane quarterback play, pathetic run offense, dropped passes and horrible play calling was the milieu of the day. No one element caused the Panthers to lose, but if you don't see that things need to change you're sticking your head in the ground. Nevertheless, John Fox has used his 'best chance to win' argument re: Moore, so even if he wanted to switching back to Clausen isn't really going to do anything for this team. Flip flopping the QB position will only stunt the development of the wide receivers, and you're kidding yourself if you think Fox wouldn't be just as likely to go back to Moore again on a whim if Clausen falters (and he will because he's a rookie).
The defense did everything they could after being on the field for a laughable 36:28 caused by an ineffective offense. There were a few good performances on the defensive side of the ball, and I can think of two good performances on the offensive end. So, let's break it down...
After the jump
One quick note on Matt Moore because it needs to be talked about. If you disagree with the following statement, then feel free to argue it in the comments:
"Matt Moore is neither as bad as he was yesterday, nor is he as good as he was a week ago against San Francisco."
As it stands Moore has six starts with a QB rating over 90 and four starts with a QB rating under 75... he's simply not consistent. He falls somewhere in between the 94.6 he put up last week, and the 51 he had yesterday and if you're okay with a QB like that long term then you have far lower standards than I do. Simply put, when the game plan is working and Davidson's offense is clicking then Moore is the perfect QB, if he faces the slightest bit of adversity he crumbles.
On the other end of the spectrum we have a normall stalwart and reliable veteran who is drastically under-performing. Steve Smith has been poor all season and he himself described his play as that of a 'high-schooler' yesterday. It was just a terrible game from Smitty; easy drops, an ugly fumble... I think Darin Gantt said it best during his mid game Tweet:
If Steve Smith's going to mutter about not getting the ball, he's going to have to hang onto it first.
This pretty much sums up Smitty's season... a lot of talk, not a lot of action.
Now onto the individual rankings.
Optimistic
James Anderson- Extremely Optimistic: 8 tackles, 3 for a loss, 1 sack and 2 QB hits. Anderson really deserves to be a pro-bowler this year, sadly I think his 1-6 team is going to be the reason he missed out on the honor.
Jason Baker- Extremely Optimistic: I overlook Baker too much, but he's really had a stellar year. Sometimes I need a really bad performance to make me realize the guys who are stepping up.
Brandon LaFell- Extremely Optimistic: That's two games in a row where he's put together good performances. He turned a terrible Matt Moore pass that was behind him into a touchdown and he fought the whole game both in his pass catching and blocking... great game.
Tony Fiametta- Somewhat Optimistic: He was a good lead blocker today... pity the guy behind him couldn't do anything. I hope Fi continues to play at this level.
Charles Godfrey- Somewhat Optimistic: Godfrey has had a quietly good season, and though he only registered two tackles they were both big tackles.
Pessimistic
Play-calling- Extremely Pessimistic: There is nothing to say about this abomination other than it looks like an 8 year old calling plays in Madden NFL.
Steve Smith- Extremely Pessimistic: See above
Matt Moore- Extremely Pessimistic: Terrible game from Moore. The comical 1st INT off a back footed throw on a failed flea flicker should have been the omen it wasn't going to be pretty.
Jonathan Stewart- Extremely Pessimistic: Sure, the holes aren't always there... but sooner or later an RB needs to make something happen. Stewart didn't make anything happen.
Honestly there are more... I can always find more of them; but let's leave it here.
Overall Outlook
What are we playing for? Still think we can make the playoffs? Good luck with that wish, meanwhile I guess I'll watch us close this thing out and continue to prognosticate about coaches and draft picks. That's about all there is left.
30% Optimistic heading home to face the Saints.
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Well Said
Moore can’t handle the slighted bit of pressure when it comes to being a starting QB.. That said he is clearly not the answer at QB for the Panthers moving forward but the Question is why don’t we permanently bench him and let clausen play out the rest of the season so he can get better… Like Sam Bradford for example look at what he has done now that he as gotten settle down with half a season woreth of starts, he looks good.. I personally believe that letting clausen play on the field is the best way to learn and not sit back and watch a guy have terrible games… Just my two cents
I guess it depends on the Rookie
but if there is any credence to the theory that carrying a clipboard for a year or two is the way to go for a QB, then let Clausen wait. Moore can take the lumps while the receivers learn, and hopefully Clausen can get a decent receiving corps without the risk of getting shell shocked.
by panthersnbraves on Nov 1, 2010 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions
My argument against Clausen playing since week 2 has been that this team sucks on too many offensive fronts for it to be a learning experience
I don’t want a David Carr redux. Let the O-line get in a rhythm before sending the kid back in there, otherwise hes just going to learn bad habits.
I’m expecting Wk11 or 12, hopefully with Otah able to play
by ppalm on Nov 1, 2010 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
my thought is that the majority of the issues revolve around a very bad offensive line:
Lack of a running game
sacks\batted passes
constant pocket collapses, which never end well
Run or Pass play, there is too much backfield penetration. Plays are dead before they even start.
…and those trick plays? c’mon….. really? It’s like watching a caveman perform brain surgery with a dull rock…..
by 12th_Man_Fan on Nov 1, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Now that was hilarious!!!
Loved it 12th Man Fan
Moore could use a Sports Psychologist or an Exorcism
What is it with Moore? He has been in the Panthers system for over 3 years now, so understanding the offense or gameplan should NOT be a problem for him.
In cleanup duty/games, he has always done well. So what is the problem?
Honestly, I think this guy suffers from a severe lack of confidence – simply put, he does not seem to have the cohenas to be the franchise back of an NFL team – any NFL team.
Last week, he was in reliever duty for another failed QB, the same way he was when he took over for Jake Delhomme – No pressure, because the coaches were focused on the other guy who had already stunk it up and there was no time for his brain to eat itself up with all of the what-ifs that the fear of failing brings. Second game, big difference because now there was time for all those fears to start creeping back in.
Maybe we as fans are looking at this all wrong. Maybe we should consider going to a 2-QB system or letting Clausen start games and Moore finish them? I suggest this partly in jest and partly in all seriousness. Clausen certainly doesn’t seem to lack confidence, just experience. Does anyone have any examples where this has been tried recently – I’m thinking of the obvious like Philly tried to do last year with McNabb/Vick or along the lines of some of the college systems such as what the Florida Gators used as a change-up before Tebow took over there. Not that we have a big running-QB threat, but more-so out of necessity – maybe the QBs will feed off each other or the competition, who knows? I know some may say it will disrupt the timing of the offense, but have you seen the Panthers offense? How could it possibly be any worse off that it is? And besides, there is a precident – we did direct snaps to DWill a couple years back (or was it DFoster?) when we had no QB with Jake hurt, much like our current situation.
I know this is just a theory, but until someone comes up with a more plausible explanation or Moore proves he can play consistently well then that is my theory and I’m running with it!
Why Moore struggles...
1. He has no offensive line. He doesn’t have time to drop back and throw because he’s got blitzers in his face in 2.5 seconds. Same thing happened with Clausen. A quarterback can’t be expected to throw the ball deep down field with no time to throw.
2. You can understand an offense and a game plan all day long, but when your OC calls stupid plays and uses the same game plan regardless of the opponent, you will not have success. An offense of Run, Deep Bomb, Draw, Punt doesn’t work in the NFL, and the team will continue to fail as long as Davidson the Incompetent and Fox the Apathetic continue to run the offense that way, regardless of who is at quarterback. This goes back to point #1 — if they know the OL is struggling, then why don’t they call some short slant routes instead of 30 yard bombs every time? It seems like they would switch to a “dink and dunk” style of offense until we can get guys on the line who can actually block, but it goes back to coaching, and right now our coaching is pathetic, save for Ron Meeks who actually has the defense playing pretty well considering they’re on the field for 2/3 of the game every week and are about to die on the field in the late 4th quarter because the offense can’t put together a drive of more than 4 plays.
Now, you are right that he seems to only play well when the games don’t matter, but it’s not entirely his fault. Yesterday he made some stupid decisions, like the INT on the flea-flicker, which was a monumentally stupid play call to begin with, but Moore shouldn’t have thrown that ball, but everyone sucked yesterday. Moore didn’t make Smitty drop the passes he dropped or fumble the ball. Moore didn’t make Stewart forget how to run over people and gain positive yards. Moore didn’t make the OL whiff on their blocks.
Moore will never prove that he can play consistently until the offensive line and coaching philosophy are changed to where he actually has a chance to do it, so you might not want to hold your breath while waiting for that one.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Agree on most of that...
Yes, I was thinking the same thing – you see other teams throwing short routes all the way down the field so I wondered why don’t they try to mix it up a bit… and I don’t mean the stupid flea-flicker play to start the game!
Another thing that bothers me is that they looked like a totally different team running the 2-minute offense at the end of both halfs!! Now why in the hell don’t they try to mix up the speed of the game a bit – The Indianapolis Colts are the master example of mixing cadence. And that brings up another point – if the O-line is so terrible, then why did the 2-minute offense work? Yes, I agree they are terrible but this just proves that they are capable of some things. It’s like you said, finding plays to call that actually fit the current offense, not trying to force the offense into their stupid playbook. But I still don’t buy that Moore is a good QB. He has done nothing to prove it. A lot of QBs come along with talent – David Carr was supposed to be one of those guys – but it takes (the coach’s $100 word) “intangibles” – which means they have to have the intelligence, instinct and physical and mental toughness to be a leader, something Moore has yet to show – with over 3 years on the team to show it. Fox may be stubborn as hell, but maybe he wasn’t so stupid in not playing Moore until he was forced to. Don’t get me wrong – I was hoping that Moore would prove to be a hidden gem – our own Tom Brady – but so far he’s been more like David Carr.
It's not even just 'Good Jake, bad Jake'
It’s ‘Good Panthers, bad Panthers’. Inconsistency will be the calling card of the John Fox era- we’ve never had higher highs, or lower lows.
Yes, I know the 1-15 season… but that team didn’t have the talent this team does. In 2001 there was really a feeling they could just not win, now there’s the feeling we should be winning but this team is incapable of doing so.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I still think it's the offense. The defense makes mistakes, but their play is overblown because they're out on the field so long.
I’ll just call it ‘Good Offense, Screw you Davidson’
I think James and the Carolina Beat writers like Darin and the rest of the guys pretty much summarizes what I think about the Panthers. Our defense would be fine if we were just consistent on offense. Our offensive lines stink, Davidson doesn’t have any hot reads for Moore, Moore can’t improvise and when he does our WR’s drop passes. We continue to run the ball even though the other team continue to stack 8 and 9 players in the box and bring the blitz over and over again.
It’s a sad state of affair all over, and I think our offense should shoulder most of the blame. We’ve held teams to 20 points or under 5 out of the 7 games we’ve had this season. That’s in spite of multiple interceptions and fumbles by our offense giving them short field advantage.
I remain high on Meeks and our defense.
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
by Revshawn on Nov 1, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
1-15
Sounds plausible to me… I really keep hoping and looking and waiting for that flash in the pan – someone, something or some play to spark the team into a roll of good fortune then good results and momentum and before you know it – hey they’re 7-9 again!
And yet I sit here and wonder if I would really like to see them at 7-9 – the almost perfect definition of mediocrity. I just love when they’ve put together a 7-9 or 8-8 season – that’s all the coaches need to lick their wounds and distract from the elephant in the room, the reasons they ended up at 7-9 or 8-8 to begin with – so they can keep the ship steady and go out there and do it again!
The thing that REALLY bugs me about the Panthers organization – and I will say the organization and not just Fox because they are all culpible – is how much this team resembles a European soccer club. “0-0 Tie Yeah!” “Field position, Field position, Field position” “Time of possession” blah blah blah!
Now I get that those things are an important PIECE of good coaching – some coaches could REALLY use a lesson in the fundamentals of these things – but to consistently WASTE such good talent because of such conservative play-calling year-in and year-out is criminal. The only reason Smith’s talent isn’t completely wasted is that he goes out and makes things happen for himself… what are they going to do, make him give back the yards and points? Sshh don’t tell them I said that, they just might!
I know it’s been said time and again – the Panthers have tried to mold themselves after the Steelers organization – and that’s fine. Consistency is much better than inconsistency. I would not want to be the Washington Redskins organization, flipping coaches every year or two. And I wouldn’t want to be the Bucs under Gruden either, collecting QBs then treating them like the mean kid treated toys in Toy Story – but there has got to be a better way. Give me the Dom Capers-led Panthers with the likes of Kevin Green and Steve Beurlein ANY day over this! At least they had guts and moxy.
Hey, don’t get me wrong… I love the Panthers, always have since they were formed in 1993 – but I love a Panther with some teeth more.
Great article James...terrible game Panthers
First off I I think your synopsis on both Moore & Smith are accurate. But I still don’t want to see a QB change until we lose at least 8 games.
For me this was the most painful loss of the season, I think primarily due to the contrasting performance of our opponent. The Panthers offensively squandered every opportunity to be successful while the Rams offense were near flawless in the execution of their game plan.
I thought this was our worst playcalling of the season to date. Way too many 3rd and longs…the run game had no push but we never tried to compensate with some short passes. Offensively you knew this was probably going to be a low scoring game of attrition where establishing the lead and ball control was critical, yet we’re trying gimmick plays in the first quarter while our D is doing its job and getting off the field. I’m jealous of where the Rams are right now…in every aspect they look like a team on the rise while we continue to under acheive.
by paydirt16 on Nov 1, 2010 9:06 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
We could be the Rams if we wanted to
I said it during the Cat Scratch Radio halftime show, but it’s pretty clear what they’re doing.
While the coaching mentality of the Panthers seems to over complicate everything the Rams do the opposite.
They understand they don’t have the most talent, they understand they have a rookie QB, they understand they have a weak OL and young WRs (ring any bells) but in spite of all that they run an offensive system that doesn’t ask anyone to do too much. Why ask a rookie WR to pull in a 35 yard pass until they can catch stuff inside 10 yards? Why ask an unproven QB to make the hard passes when they can move the chains with easy ones? Why ask a weak OL to block for a 5-step drop when you can draw up routes for a 3-step one?
There seems to be a complete and utter disconnect between the personnel the Panthers have and who the coaches think they have. Sure, there may be aberrations like the San Francisco game… but more often than not asking your young players to do too much is a surefire way to fail.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Nov 1, 2010 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Been saying it all season
Rams don’t really have a conventional passing game – most of the passes are glorified tosses that go no more than 6 yards in the air.
I remember reading somewhere that Rams run up the middle a lot even though they don’t necessarily have a lot of production. This is the best way for Rams to keep opposing defenses honest. Outs, Ins, Screens….basically bread and butter of the offense. Why can’t execute a screen pass properely?
I saw Bradford hit one deep pass in 4th quarter. Our defense was dying by then.
I like Fox but he simply refuses to adapt to the situation. You have rookie receivers and non-functioning OL, and this this vertical stretch thing – it has a lot of working parts. Figure it out, Fox.
"There seems to be a complete and utter disconnect between the personnel the Panthers have and who the coaches think they have"
Great point there James. I would add that this is the likely result of a “disconnect” between our Front Office which has its eye on the future and our lame duck coaching staff whom probably aren’t included in those future plans.
Absolutely agree with you... which to me is the heart of Moore v. Clausen
Moore makes the most sense to a coaching staff looking to sell themselves to future employers because I truly believe he gives the Panthers the best chance to win in 2010.
However, Clausen makes the most sense to the organization because while he’ll lose more in 2010 I think having him take his lumps now gives you a better chance to win in 2011 than Moore does (if retained).
It’s a huge mess all around.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
It's like Davidson draws up the game plan in a vacuum
and gets no feedback from the QB or anyone else. JD: “Matt, how about we go with a flea flicker to start the day?” Moore: “I don’t know coach, maybe a few short passes first to get my rhythm going first”. JD: “Okay, fleaflicker it is!”
It's almost like he is George Lucas or something
“furry adorable dwarves that don’t move well taking down advanced war machines with logs and rocks…YEAH!!”
by adamwanderer on Nov 1, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Obvious joke...
He does draw it up in a vacuum, because it sucks.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Wow, you pegged it!
I couldn’t have put it any better. IMHO, you have described the situation perfectly.
Speaking of Madden
I just think that Moore’s QB vision cone is too small. He can only look at half the field before he has to make the throw. Too many times Smitty has been OOOOOOpen on the other side, but Moore can make that many reads without having to get rid of the ball.
LOL!
Yeah. Our blocking sucks. That’s pretty easy to understand ;)
by The Duke Dude on Nov 1, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
That's the way i feel about the coaching
I’ve already determined that the coaches need to leave Carolina. But i’ve been holding out hope that once competent OL would get it together….
Nope Madden gave up on it
Not saying it’s not a valid concept, just a situation of making the game TOO lifelike, and in the endmaking the game unplayable.
It just seemd to be the best analogy I could come up with.
by panthersnbraves on Nov 1, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
If I remember correctly
you could turn the vision cone off. But yeah, one of the dumbest ideas ever.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 1, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
The first thing Madden needs to improve is..
The receivers that, first, don’t fight for the ball and just let CB go up and bat it down while running by him then, second, watch as the ball falls in front of them and accidentally kick it without ever attempting a catch. Incomplete passes don’t bother me but receivers that don’t even try to catch the ball piss me off.
Overall Panthers Draft Grade: A
Madden suckx
as a whole…
No double hit tackles
Sucktion Blocking
Lame Running Animations
No improvement in superstarmode or franchise
The list goes on
Want to fix Madden?
Stop buying EA’s games. They haven’t changed the core mechanics of Madden for years because they don’t have to. The games will always sell. Why put the effort into making the game better when there’s 1) no competition (guaranteed by players rights contracts) and 2) people by the crap anyway?
I miss the NFL2K series
Those were great games.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
I dunno about that.
I could make any QB into Manning as long as they had decent accuracy and arm strength. The vision cone made it much more difficult to do so. I kinda liked it.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
I loved it
it was hard at first, but it enabled me to look defenders off (when playing against humans). It was great. I love when they make stuff hard so not everyone can be good at the game.
I am an optimist. It does not seem too much use being anything else.
~Winston Churchill
OH!
Totally agree with you
Is definitely time to start talking about possible new coaches and 1st rd draft pick!
Well written and well thought out
We are just plain awful.
I appreciate Smitty owning up to his mistakes yesterday but everyone is looking for direction and it needs to initiate in the locker room. I could have chewed him out for waving his hands for being wide open in the end zone when Moore went elsewhere. That junk does not equate to unity but to diversity and division.
Fox is still on the payroll and that needs to be addressed.
One thing I keep seeing crop up that disturbs me though....
While I’m not happy with the benching of clausen mid-development (I loved moore last year but whatever happened to him in the offseason mentally seems to have settled in permanently), I understand the rationale behind it and hopefully it pays off (if nothing else, maybe the time off will help his foot heal up some; as a former QB myself, having an injured foot no matter which one severely affects your velocity and range, not too mention the pain itself affecting your concentration). However, I can’t believe how many people are calling for the team to basically get sacked in the offseason (with a new coaching staff in place) especially in regards to the QB position. Does it suck that Moore is obviously not much better than a mediocre backup? Sure…does it suck that clausen hasn’t experienced any success yet? sure does….this does not mean we should waste a first rounder on another QB and just ditch the plan that is place with our team. Like james said, this team is far more infuriating to watch than the 2001 one, since this team has such a solid core of young talent that SHOULD be winning games (or at least posting better than 10 points a game), but just seems to shoot itself in the foot anytime something progressive happens. Here’s hoping that the new coaching staff next year (specifically, the OC and QB coaches) help right the ship on our gameplanning, and I guarantee Clausen will flourish and this team as a whole will actually play up to its potential for once…..
by Tomthehomer on Nov 1, 2010 9:28 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Feedback - anyone else think Smitty's drops/fumbles are him trying too hard?
When the team is never scoring, every play seems desparate. “OK – make the catch, and just turn – that’ll move the chains” becomes “Get your hips and feet set so that when the ball gets here, I’ve gotta get past this guy, and get to the 20, or we won’t even get a GD FG… ball’s here! Turn! Dammit!!! … dropped it… maybe Baker can pin them deep…”
Start Clausen for the rest of the season................
This season is toast. We will have a top 10 draft pick. We need to see if we have to use it on a QB. So, we need to see if Clausen is up to it or not. If he’s not, we need to draft or trade for a QB. If he is, then we can use the pick elsewhere.
Personally, I think we need to go the Patriot’s route. Trade vets like Smith and Williams for draft picks while they still have value. (Imagine if we had traded Peppers 3 years ago)
Then pick up discarded vets that can play for 4-6 round picks. They got Moss for a 4th, got 2-3 years out of him and traded him for a 3rd.
Then trade down as many picks as possible to accumulate 2nd, 3rd and 4th round picks. We need a lot of help in a lot of places. Trading down is better long term than trading up we’ve been doing lately. It’s a team game, and a lot of good players is better than a few stars. I like Brown, Otah, and think Armanti will be pretty good, but the team result has not shown this strategy to be working.
Moore is becoming like Jarrett. He’s had his chances, can’t get it done, and we need to move on sooner rather than later.
As Jerry Glanville once said, "It's the NFL...........................
which means Not For Long if you don’t produce" Look at the body of work for Moore. Wins late in the season when contenders are just going through the motions, wildly erratic passes and a lot of INT’S. He’s the 4th best QB in our division for goodness sake. We need to see if Clausen can grow into the job now before the draft to see if we need to draft or trade or get a FA QB, because Moore is not the answer. Clausen may not be either, but it’s too early to tell. Loyalty gets you beat in the NFL, and has been the Panthers biggest weakness as an organization. Too much ownership of draft picks for too long and too little interest in guys who have shown they can play in the NFL.
While I don't agree that Clausen should be playing,
I do agree that this organization has had issues with attachment to certain players….to a fault. We all know who we are talking about with this, mainly. But, to admit a mistake is beneath the egos of Marty, and sometimes John—which is where they real problem lies.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 2, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
You clearly have never heard Marty Hurney speak about anything...
About 2 or 3 weeks ago, Marty himself said that the decisions made this offseason with regard to player signings and who they brought to camp were all decisions that he shoulders the blame for. He gambled, came up short every time, and owned up to it.
"You clearly have never heard Marty Hurney speak about anything"
You mean like the time about a month ago that he swore up and down this team wasn’t ‘rebuilding?’ Like how I never heard that?
Maybe you should actually read the comments leading up to mine before opening your yap.
You want proof then, huh? Ask Marty to explain to you next time you hang out wtf a “Lig” is?
And maybe you should not treat everyone here like idiots.
‘There has been no one so antagonistic on this forum…since (crowd gasps) ….well that was a long, long time ago, and we don’t speak that name anymore.’
I’ve noticed it from the day you joined. Just bit my tongue until now. So maybe this is more of a response to several uncouth statements.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 2, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Seems to be one of the rare people that disagree just to disagree but, even at that, I couldn’t dare place him amongst the unspoken.
Overall Panthers Draft Grade: A
No, its not close. Just made the connection from afar.
But he seems tight with some people so I probably get a warning next time I sign in. But that’d be weak.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 2, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
ha
I doubt it. That would be weak though. You did not say anything out of line
I am an optimist. It does not seem too much use being anything else.
~Winston Churchill
OH!
I feel you ERL
I get warned whenever i mention Armanti Edwards or make certain people look wrong. Silly sports-blog politics, haha.
No, you get warned when you turn into a total jackass on threads.
And when you attack anyone who doesn’t worship Armanti.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
I don't really care what you think of me to be honest...
I agree with the people and points that I think are correct, and I disagree with those that I think are not. The difference is that in both cases I speak up either way. Throw in an unwillingness to back down and enjoying the process of debating back and forth and I can see how you might characterize me as “antagonistic.” If you don’t agree with what I say though, you should really come back with more than “You’re just acting like Procton.”
I’m not “tight” with anyone on here. I email James rarely (I think the total count is up to 5 now) when I want to talk about an issue that I know isn’t going to be popular on the blog and I’ve emailed Jaxon once. If you get a warning for mouthing off to me, it’s probably because you were mouthing off, not because it was directed at me.
YOU SAID HIS NAME!!!
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Now that that's over with...
Marty Hurney did deny that the team was rebuilding. I believe this was in week 4 or 5 (Clausen was still the starter). However, he went on to say that many of the problems that they were having with regards to their personnel decisions were things that were on him.
That immediately refutes the notion that:
to admit a mistake is beneath the egos of Marty
Don’t resort to attacking me when your argument doesn’t hold water and someone calls you out on it.
"attacking" is a little strong, no?
Dwayne Jarrett < Marty’s ego.
Why does everything have to be so black and white with you?
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
No, it's not...
First, if you want to tack on a connotation to “attacking”, be my guest. You called my character into question. That is an attack. Everything else in your comment is just a dust cloud to cover it (particularly the part about me not reading the comments leading up to yours). It’s not like it bothers me. I was just calling it what it is.
Secondly, you’re going to have to explain to me why Marty Hurney’s ego is greater than Dwayne Jarret (or Dwayne Jarret is less than Marty Hurney’s ego, which is how you wrote it). That doesn’t make any sense to me. I suppose I can guess at the point you’re trying to get across (that he’s not going to admit that Jarret was a mistake), but what do you expect? Do you honestly think that a GM of sports any organization is going to throw someone under the bus like that? Is that what you want Hurney to do? If so, then I’m glad his “ego” is preventing him from doing that, but I prefer to call it “class.”
Not everything I see is black and white to me, and I don’t see how that factors into the discussion one way or the other. I could go further here, but I don’t see the point.
Yes, please don't waste your superior intellect on a knuckle-dragger like myself.
You started the unpleasantness. Try not to make strong statements like “You clearly have never heard Marty Hurney speak about anything…,” particularly as the title of a comment, and then maybe you wouldn’t be engaging in as many pissing contests as you do on this forum.
If you a trying to deny that NFL GMs and HCs have egos, based on some naive opinion you have formulated, then no, I don’t suppose we should continue talking about it.
But let’s be real. The only reason you replied in a smarmy fashion to my original comment was because it said “While I don’t agree that Clausen should be playing.” Look, Fox yanked MM after 7 quarters, pulled the alarm, and put JC in. It didn’t work. The offense went backwards. Deal with it, and don’t jump on my ass about it when I reveal an OPINION I have (that happens to fall in line with the opinion of the entire Panthers organization).
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 4, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I dared.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 5, 2010 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I guess you missed my point there...
I honestly didn’t even remember that you had started off by talking about Clausen. I certainly didn’t bring him up. I wasn’t even thinking about him when I responded.
Keep grasping at straws though. Sooner or later you’ll realize the focal point of my comment was that you attempt to paint Hurney as some out of control egomaniac whose conviction has ruined this team.
And that’s simply not true, but I guess him talking about the personnel decisions that the team and owning up to the fact that the mistakes made can be pinned on him just aren’t good enough for you.
"out of control egomaniac whose conviction has ruined this team."
That is not the picture I painted though, ace. This is hyperbole, and pinning words to me that were not spoken (or typed).
I guessed you missed my point, too. I was talking specifically about keeping players too long. Don’t you wonder why Jarrett was on the team so long? He was Marty’s pick, all the way. Jon must have hated the pick, because Dwayne was clearly in the doghouse for his entire career as a Panther. Fox wasn’t going to play him…a guy Marty though highly of, a guy he picked in the early middle second round. The power struggle between Fox and Hurney has ended, and so has one’s future with the team. Hurney stripped Fox of what he needed to win, replaced those guys with rookies, and now Fox is the scape goat as Marty is carried around and fed grapes.
More importantly, if Marty Hurney were an exceptional “team-building” general manager, this team would not be 1-6.
He can find talent on a pick-by-pick basis, but as far as putting a team together, clearly he forgot about some missing pieces. We can only hope that the pieces he did commit to are able alter their shape and eventually fit.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
Here's what I take issue with
He was Marty’s pick, all the way. Jon must have hated the pick, because Dwayne was clearly in the doghouse for his entire career as a Panther. Fox wasn’t going to play him…a guy Marty though highly of, a guy he picked in the early middle second round. The power struggle between Fox and Hurney has ended, and so has one’s future with the team. Hurney stripped Fox of what he needed to win, replaced those guys with rookies, and now Fox is the scape goat as Marty is carried around and fed grapes.
This is all conjecture. You can’t prove any of it. That would be my definition of a gray area (which you oddly seem to think I’m incapable of seeing). We don’t know what happened behind the scenes and to speculate on it is fun, but you’re never going to definitively know anything. It’s all opinion and it goes against everything that we know of about the Panthers organization. They (Hurney and Fox) have prided themselves on always being able to come to a comfortable consensus, everything always being 50/50.
In order for what you say about Jarret to be true, that would have to mean that things soured between the two of them 4 years ago, back in 2007. Quite frankly, that’s just not true. It wasn’t until the 2009 off season that things soured (when Richardson didn’t extend his contract).
There never was a power struggle between Fox and Hurney.
I understand
But ace, I never claim to put anything but opinion on this board, unless I’m just pointing out a statistic or something.
So my Jarrett situation between Marty and Fox is completely hypothetical, but its also my opinion of that situation. Do I think that Fox not playing Jarrett soured their relationship….no, I don’t. There is and never was a “power” struggle, im my opinion. What I feel there was and is a disagreement about personnel—who to sign, draft, and play.
Their relationship seems like its still a working one, but its perhaps a little less peachy as it used to be.
There are always small internal struggles between men that often stay bottled-up. Dwayne is just one guy, but if you take a minute to think about it, its remarkable how many guys Marty picked up early in the draft just to see them buried behind anyone with experience. It’s been happening for years…
Marty has drafted guys like James Anderson, Everette Brown, Charles Johnson, Corvey Irvin, Dwayne Jarrett, and Dan Connor (probably others) in the first three rounds, but Fox did not play them until he was stripped of the veterans who were playing in front of these guys, hence the “sometimes you have to force yourself (meaning Fox) to play the young guys.”
I don’t believe that Marty was ripping his hair out about it, but it must have gotten to a point where he felt like Fox wasn’t taking advantage of all the great young players he’d plucked in the draft.
Ultimately it lead to our current situation, where we have a bunch of young guys just now getting their feet wet. Unfortunately they are all getting their first taste of starting minutes, or perhaps their first taste of NFL football and are doing it together, all at the same time.
Some of them will work out, some of them won’t. But its going to take some movement in free agency, and a couple more adequate drafts before we see drastic improvement…Because you can’t introduce a dozen new (inexperienced) starters to your lineup, do less that zero in free agency, let arguable your best player walk and expect to be competitive.
Fox knew this, and probably openly voiced his displeasure with the situation inside the organization. Hell, we have a couple examples of him voicing his displeasure publicly, during a press conference.
I’m sure he and Jerry had a few conversations about the lack of moves in free agency, the subtraction of many veterans, and undoubtedly his own contract situation.
Remember, Jerry gave Fox the option to find another job and opt out of the last year of his contract. But why? Well, because he knew Fox was pissed about the situation he has been boxed in to.
Personally, I think Fox has gotten a raw deal. Jerry gave up on the season, gave up on Fox. To deny that is to not see clearly, or to let admiration get in the way of the clear, existing evidence.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 5, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
State opinions as opinions and facts as facts.
A lot of that was opinion stated as fact, so I’m not going to bother with it. You can have the opinion that evolution is a myth, but that doesn’t mean your opinion is correct…
There is and never was a "power" struggle, im my opinion.
The power struggle between Fox and Hurney has ended, and so has one’s future with the team.
Kinda contradictory.
Remember, Jerry gave Fox the option to find another job and opt out of the last year of his contract. But why? Well, because he knew Fox was pissed about the situation he has been boxed in to.
Or because the option was there and Richardson was opting to go in a different direction?
Personally, I think Fox has gotten a raw deal. Jerry gave up on the season, gave up on Fox. To deny that is to not see clearly, or to let admiration get in the way of the clear, existing evidence.
I agree, to an extent about Fox getting a raw deal, but once again everything beyond that is conjecture. Now anyone who doesn’t think along those lines is blinded by admiration? Admiration for who exactly? Richardson? We weren’t even talking about Richardson. Hurney? How does that work out anyawy?
possibly....
At least he’s trying and owning up to when he’s fucked up…..anyone think some of the possible WR’s we could’ve picked up would do the same given that situation? Smitty will bounce back….he always does!
We should be talking about FA targets
I know that we are not active in FA typically but if this year’s draft will not pay off now, it is unreasonable to think that next year’s draft is going to pay off next year. If we want to be a force in 2011, we should be talking about FA targets a lot more than the draft. Coaching changes are also a valid topic. But thinking that A.J.Green or Andrew Luck is going to solve our problems in 2011 is pure fantasy…it is more likely that we make the playoffs this year.
If this year's draft will not pay off now?
What? Rookie’s almost never contribute during their first season.
We’ve had a hell of a draft – we always draft well. These players will be better next year.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
by OldhamA on Nov 1, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
Which is why we should target a couple of experienced guys to help out the youngsters. I think at a minimum we need a veteran QB. The point I’m trying to make is that people seem to think that if we had Luck under center and Green out wide our offense would be fixed. This is even crazier than talking playoffs.
I strongly feel that the young guys on the roster just need time. They are going to be inconsistent – it is part of growing up. A couple of veterans (6+ years in the NFL) would help though. More rookies are NOT going to help the offense in the short run.
Good observation
I like the idea of Clausen playing out….seeing how he develops (ignoring W-L; if he plays well and improves but we still lose, it’s w/e….at least there’s progress), and if he’s not progressing at a decent clip we bring in a proven vet next year to guide the team and let him gain some knowledge and know how from said vet…..but you’re right, thinking that another rookie QB or worse a rookie WR (who is possibly the most dependent position on the team…..he can only produce if the ball gets to him, if the qb has vision and accuracy, if the line blocks well enough, etc….) is our panacea is folly….folly I tells ya!
clausen, moore, fox,and others gotta go
I look at this team and think of the Bucs for one reason…Jon Gruden brought in Josh Johnson and thought he could be the QB of the future. Gruden got fired and his replacement drafted Josh Freeman. We will get a top 5 pick, and I would like anyone to comment if you think Clausen has done enough, or will do enough, for us to pass over Cam Newton, Ryan Mallett, Andrew Luck, Terrelle Pryor, or whoever you think is a top 5 QB. I think Moore doesn’t get a new contract and we can keep or trade Clausen, but he’s done nothing, not at the college level either, to show he’s better than the top few QBs from the upcoming draft. Also, I think the new coach will want to go with “his guy”. It’s entirely possible that the new coach makes a play for a veteran to hold the fort down while the rookie QB gets adjusted, and Clausen is the 3rd guy.
By the way, I really don’t see what about Clausen, Moore or Pike made them so good that we let Cantwell go. As we continue to lose, I would’ve loved to see him get a shot as the starter, even though I doubt he would’ve pulled a Tom Brady and led us anywhere near winning.
Our RB and OL situations are unbelievable. I mean, is Stewart hurt, washed up, scared, or simply not in the mood? I think this team plays as a whole like a bunch of guys who have no real leader to follow since they know Fox is a goner. How can you believe in Fox when his boss is willing to let him go? that’s no excuse to half-ass it, but that’s what i think is going on. guys are working hard, but they aren’t focused enough. the staff is the locker room distraction, how absurd is that?
If you disagree that we get a QB with out top 5 pick, well…then maybe we need to get the best OL available.
Interesting observations...
I don’t see any reason to get rid of Clausen. I think unless your name is Payton, Tom, or Drew, a QB is going to look bad on our team.
I think this team plays as a whole like a bunch of guys who have no real leader to follow since they know Fox is a goner.
You hit the nail on the head there dude. We’re the youngest team. Which means we need LOTS of leadership. And you’re right, I don’t see signs of it.
by The Duke Dude on Nov 1, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
This comment is fueled by pure emotion.
Seriously, drink a beer and calm down a little bit before wildly spraying bullets at the team. Frustrations are understandable, but at least know what to be frustrated about…
Well for a start, Luck and Newton aren't coming out.
I really, really don’t like Mallett or Pryor as QBs. So who does that leave you?
I’d explain why I like Clausen so much, but you’ve just compared him unfavourably to Cantwell, so clearly it would be wasted effort.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
I wonder how he will translate to the NFL though.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Pretty well.
He’s not just a big guy that can run and throw a little, he’s a very good passer.
Auburn obviously just take advantage of his running skills. He’d dial back that in the pros, but defences would still have to be aware of it.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
on top of the fact....
Cantwell never showed enough promise in preseason to make it up the depth chart…Pike clearly had a better handle of the offense when the two split time this preseason, and Cantwell had no accuracy whatsoever to go with his arm. He wasn’t even good in college……
Clearly had a better handle?
I wouldn’t say either of them showed anything clearly other than they weren’t ready to start.
He's very good and I'm sure many teams would draft him highly.
But I’d like to see him stay for his senior year. He owes Auburn – it’d say a lot about his character if he stuck around when he didn’t have to.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
I knew that the minute people here started fawning over Moore’s performance last week that we were going to have a problem. Moore lovers, you have to admit that he just plain is not a good QB. The guy is not consistent as previously pointed out, makes bad decisions, and his accuracy is on par with a high school QB. Would Clausen have done better? Based on previous outings, that would be a flat out no. Hell, at this point, I wouldn’t be against seeing what Pike could do.
But the playcalling has been absolute shit this year. I got fed up with watching the game when all I saw was every first down, nearly every damned first down was a run to the right side of the line that resulted in a 2-5 yard loss every damn time. At some point, a rational human being would deduct that changing the formula up would be a better idea. When something fails, TRY SOMETHING ELSE! Davidson needs to get his head out of his ass and either call something that this offense can work with or tell Fox to piss off and let him call his own offense. Not like he has his job to protect…
While I’m on coaching, I saw a few people suggest firing the entire coaching staff last week, and I am beginning to agree with that. Meeks seems like a decent D coordinator (his side of the ball is the only thing playing well), but we will need an entirely new approach to this team, and a new HC will craft this team to his liking. If Meeks doesn’t fit the bill, then so be it.
While the game wasn’t surprising (and it was nice to see Anderson, LaFell, Baker, etc play well), the inane playcalling and laughable offense made this game maddening to watch. For the first time in my years of watching football (since 2003) I feel like I am wasting my Sundays.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
insult to injury
let me tell you about those runs to the right…i started Stewart on my fantasy team.
as for the defense, what do you think about a 3-4? i’m thinking we got Davis, Connor, Anderson, and Beason. Norwood and Williams may be good back-ups, and we really don’t have such great DTs that we’re doing anyone any favors by keeping two of them on the field. I say that because I wonder if Dom Capers would like to give Carolina another try.
by usana_gaines on Nov 1, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Ugh, NOOOO!
This illusion that we would make a smooth transition from a 4-3 to a 3-4 just because we have 4 great 4-3 linebackers is simply that: an illusion. It is a fantasy dreamed up by a collection of people who do not accurately understand the differences between the two alignments. We don’t have the linebackers for it. We don’t have the defensive ends for it. We don’t have a defensive tackle for it.
by aceofsween on Nov 1, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
This illusion that we would make a smooth transition from a 4-3 to a 3-4 just because we have 4 great 4-3 linebackers is simply that: an illusion. … We don’t have the linebackers for it. We don’t have the defensive ends for it. We don’t have a defensive tackle for it.
Couldn’t agree more.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
This is what I have heard about us possibly switching to a 3-4 as well. We don’t have the personnel for such a move. a 4-3 works for us, but we need to bring more pressure on the QB. None of our DE’s strike any fear into any OC. Even Hardy has disappeared from view.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
It's not the DE's, it's the DT's. If the QB can step up into the pocket every throw the DE's aren't going to get to him.
They’d have to obliterate their man to get to the QB in time without any help from the middle.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Dom. Capers.
Really?
Oh and a 3-4 needs an exceptional nose tackle to work. We don’t have one. Not to mention we don’t have 3-4 linebackers on our roster.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
RUNS TO THE RIGHT!!!
I literally got up and stomped around my house blowing snot bubbles. For the life of me (I’d LOVE to be educated on this topic) I do not understand the desire to run to the right failure after failure after failure. I mean sriously this just….ARRRRRGHHHH….I literally banged my head against the wall for a few minutes yesterday in sympathy.
by adamwanderer on Nov 1, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
alot of bad play calls
and horrible execution…. why would you throw the short route on a flea flicker? the deep pass is what’s intended, and if its covered- throw it WAY deep, but throwing into the trailing coverage was just perplexing, air it out, if it’s incomplete, you at least made em think about the vertical stretch. And late in the game, with a non existant running game, and behind to boot- why the hell are we running play action passes that are fooling no one, but giving the defense ample time to get to the QB, and taking longer to freaking develop….YAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH…I hate sundays….
It’s so dishearting to watch a defensive give it’s all every week and really give this team a chance to win football games just to have the offense come in and destroy everything week in and week out. I’m not going to stop watching and rooting for this team, i didn’t the year they went 1-15 and i won’t now but man they can really make a guy lose his voice from screaming at the tv every sunday. i agree with everything said about the coaching staff and clauson on this board. i can’t disagree with people not wanting clauson to start but i mean moore is not going to be a panther next year and clauson does still have the potential to be a long term solution at QB so we gotta give the kid a shot. I keep telling myself peyton manning went 3-13 his first season.
Welcome to the blog!
I agree with you. At the same time too giving Clausen starts lets you know if you have a Peyton Manning on your hands or a Ryan Leaf.
If we’re going to draft #1 overall (potentially) lets make sure we know what we have and if Clausen doesn’t look like the real deal then you can feel more self assured taking Andrew Luck.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
+!
Your right about this QB situation being a huge mess.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
ABSOLUTELY AGREE
Give Clausen the chance to make or break his career.
He deserves the rest of the year and then the draft may sort itself out.
“Peyton Manning or Ryan Leaf”? Great analogy!
It's a mess only because of how high we could be picking
Do we really want to be a team like the Lions who passed on Roethlisberger because Joey Harrington was just entering his third year?
I’m of the firm belief that when you’re drafting top 5 there are only 5 positions you should ever consider drafting:
- A franchise QB
- A 10 year LT
- A game changing DE
- A game changing DT
- A WR who only comes along once every few years
This year there is the QB available, there is the WR available… no DE, no LT and no DT worth taking that high in my opinion. We need to know what we have
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Nov 1, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yep
I don’t think we should pull the trigger on a QB or WR, we seem to have young talent at both those positions that we need to evaluate first. So what does that leave us with? Trading down?
Maybe we can entice a few people to trade up to reach for a QB and pick up a 2nd 1st round in 2012.
Someone will trade the house to get Andrew Luck if we decide we don't want him.
If he really ends up with the highest QB grade since Peyton Manning (as many have suggested) then there will be a team willing to make a Ricky Williams like trade to get him, provided they think they have all the other pieces (I’m looking at you Minnesota).
Kansas City is another team who look like they have most of their pieces now, but with a reliable QB could be the difference; and before people say Cassel please realize he’s due an $11.5 million roster bonus next year. Based on his play it will be tough to justify keeping him at that price.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Which could allow us to get him after he's released
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Umm... because he's better than any of the QB's on our roster.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Take a look at his stats...
He’s better than Moore and Clausen are, and he’s playing for the Chiefs. Last year, the Chiefs were terrible, and he still had a QB rating of 69.9 — which is pretty good for a 4-12 team.
This year, his rating is 90.4 and his career rating is 81.2
Moore’s rating this year is 55.7 and his career rating is 74.3
I didn’t major in mathematics, but 90.4 > 55.7 and 81.2 > 74.3
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
He was AWFUL last year.
He’s decent this year, surrounded by a ton of weapons with one of the best OCs in the game calling plays for him.
He’s better than Moore, yes. He’s not better than Clausen.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
dude
I’m all for Clausen’s potential (I have an offical JC#2 jersey), but he has not done crap yet.
I really think it has more to do with coaching, youth, crappy OL, but any way you slice it he hasn’t done anything.
And I’m not saying that I would want Cassel either. I would really like to have Clausen out there so we can figure out if we want Luck or Green.
I am an optimist. It does not seem too much use being anything else.
~Winston Churchill
OH!
Agree again
If there is nothing of that substance other than QB then trade down, collect picks and load the team.
Disagree with that.
Those are probably the most important positions on the field, but with the top 5 pick you simply take the best player you can.
You’re paying them so much money anyway that you shouldn’t limit yourself to those positions. If an amazing OLB, CB, etc is there you take him.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Yeah...
But those players will still be available at picks 7 to 13.
Trading away the #2 pick to a team that desperately needs a WR or a QB would be great if it gets us another 1st rounder the next draft and a 2nd round pick that we don’t have this year.
I don't think teams trade up into the top 5 these days.
Plus, seriously, where have people heard about Luck and Newton declaring? They both have a year of eligibility left.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Is that true?
I was under the impression if there wasn’t a season, there wouldn’t be a draft, but I truly wasn’t sure how that would work out.
I’m glad to know that we’ll get a draft, but then how are they going to work out the 2012 draft if there’re no games to rank people?
There will be a draft.
If there is no 2011 season, they will probably do what the NHL did after their lockout and do an average of the previous [insert number here] seasons and order the draft that way.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
I have read that they will draft
but that they cant negotiate a deal with them because of the cba union deal. So whats the point in coming into this draft? They will end up missing a year of playing time to sit on the nfl roster unsigned.
Luck is going to leave.
He’s a bonafide lock for the #1 overall pick at this point.
Year of eligibility or not, lockout or not… guys don’t stay when they’re going to be drafted #1 overall. You think Jake Locker is happy with his decision right now? He would have been the #1 overall and now he’ll be a mid- rounder.
Not sure about Newton, but if he really does win the Heismann and his stock is sky high he’ll leave too.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Luck strikes me as the type of player that will stay, unless his HC leaves.
Newton owes a lot to Auburn too, so I think he’ll stay for his senior year.
As for Locker. He’s always been all about potential.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
I still think he'll come out regardless...
but all signs seem to point that Harbaugh will leave for the NFL.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Well sure if Harbaugh leaves, all bets are off.
It’s why Clausen left ND. He didn’t want to have to learn a new system in his senior year.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
is it such a bad thing for them to stay a year though?
And assuming locker DID declare this year…and played like this in the NFL? Yea yea, I keep hearing Luck is the real deal but I’ve watched him for about 5 games this year and I just don’t see a player who absolutely HAS to declare this year in order to avoid injury next year….Harbaugh is a smart guy (and knows a thing or two about the nfl lol), he’ll hopefully keep the kid grounded and convince him to play out.
Newtons a similar deal…..but more cause he definitely owes Auburn more than anything! War damn eagle son!!!!
what does he owe Auburn?
I’m not familiar enough with the situation to know, but I’ve seen comments saying he “owes Auburn” several times now. What did they do to make him owe them?
I’m not being a smart-ass, I genuinely do not know.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
They picked him up from some Junior College and gave him the chance to play?
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Didn't know that.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
He was behind Tebow in Florida.
So he transferred to some Junior College in Texas, won the National Championship and transferred to Auburn.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Oh, ok.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
It's going to be a tough sell
It wouldn’t be the worst thing for either to stay… but would you come out if you were a lock for #1 overall in the last potential draft without a rookie cap?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
In short, hell yes.
You can always go back later and get your degree. You can’t go back later and get a $50M + guaranteed contract.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
There is no cap but wont the rules go onto the next contract? They cant negotiate contracts with them until the cba is settled, so their contract is going to be whatever the new cba deal going to be now. I believe we just had the last uncapped draft, & i believe they will lower the max for rookies in the new cba.
If I were Luck I'd stay, even if I was guaranteed the #1 pick.
Unless the HC left, then I’d bolt.
I’d want another year of being the big man on campus before I went professional and my world turned upside down.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Sorry, I'd take the money.
One broken play could take away the opportunity forever. I guarantee that I can pull in more snatch with 50 million guaranteed than you can being “big man on campus”. lol.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
I'll add onto the 8 year old joke.
Play-calling- Extremely Pessimistic: There is nothing to say about this abomination other than it looks like an 8 year old calling plays in Madden NFL. The only problem is that he refuses to ask Madden and he has the ‘sub out players’ bar set at 70% stamina. That’s the reason we see Goodson out there so much trying to run the ball.
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
It's irritating to me, as a fan.
To see Stewart make 3 or 4 straight gains of 7 yards by lowering his shoulder and mowing down the defensive lineman or linebacker in his way, and then I see Goodson being thrown out there.
One of the many small things that need to be changed on this team.
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
Too much blame on Moore
Admittedly, due to business, i was not ale to view most of yesterday’s game. I caught a few spots here and there. The first play i got to see was Smitty drop the perfectly thrown long ball from Matt. The second was LaFell’s catch and run for a TD.
I looked at the box score and then came over here.
Here’s the deal. If you still blame Moore your grasping at straws. Saying he’s “terrible” “erratic” etc. – is short sighted and a view that totally misses the point of why we suck. Last year’s and this year’s failures are mostly about coaching! The line can’t block but our OC is supposed to be a blocking guru. We call the same shitty plays over and over and they do not work. Then you have your stars dropping passes, fumbling, etc. That is matter of not having your players ready and fundamentally sound, which goes back to coaching.
When the running game is non-existent, but Moore is 23 of 37 (now think SMITTY is dropping perfectly thrown 35 yard passes too!) how can you blame the QB? Unless, your just plain biased (like saying the TD pass was terrible, c’mon James, good lord), i don’t see how the blame for yesterdays defeat can be put so much on the QB.
haha...
You didn’t watch the came, yet you are going to come in here and tell everyone that we are wrong for holding Moore accountable for his performance? Get over yourself.
If you watched the game and not just the box score you might have an idea
The LaFell TD pass was behind LaFell (who made a great adjustment to catch it) who then broke two tackles and got to the endzone by sheer will.
You can cry ‘bias’ all you want, but even BigD admitted Moore played a terrible game yesterday, and he’s as big a Matt Moore proponent as anyone I know.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Give it up.
Dude sees what he wants to see and ignores the rest.
Except when he’s listening to the radio. Then he doesn’t see anything and still ignores the rest.
I saw parts and listened to most so i couldn't see everything that was happening
But the running game is total crap. How can that be the QB’s fault?
Moore is a game manager type QB, but when you’re a running team that can’t run, and your one proven WR is dropping crucial passes and fumbling, who is to blame?
Obviously Matt Moore is the culprit, so let’s start Clausen. Great idea fellas.
Sigh...
But the running game is total crap. How can that be the QB’s fault?
Find one person who blamed the running game on Moore and I’ll give you a cookie the size of Texas.
I'll do it now if you give him the cookie...
I just want to see a cookie that big. LOL
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
cookies with hot sauce?
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
I was gonna post the one linked below...
But this isn’t a game thread and it has an F-Bomb.
Warning: the following photo has an f-bomb in it.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Yeah, I also didn't want you to take it the wrong way.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
SO then why bench the QB when it's not on him?
The failures of the rest of the team are making Moore look bad, more so than vice versa.
Oh...
So now the discussion has changed from “we shouldn’t blame Moore” to “we shouldn’t bench Moore”?
Nice to see you staying on track.
You should really pull the foot out of your own mouth
Before you try to force words into others’ mouths…
You are making NO sense
WTF are you even talking about?
James put Moore in the “extremely pessimistic” category. I was commenting that that was putting too much blame on Moore. I know that you don’t think anyone should EVER defend Matt Moore, but that is my take on the situation. Chill out!
Direct comment to me
You want blame Moore and bench him. I don’t.
That’s actually not true, and if you took any time to read the responses I’ve made to this blog you would know it.
So you don't want to bench Moore?
Or you don’t want to blame him?
Because if it’s the latter, then why were you accosting me in th e first place?!?!?!
Clearly then it's not the latter....
I’m on the fence about benching Moore simply because I don’t believe constantly flip flopping between the QBs is a good idea.
I also don’t believe that Moore is going to get the job done and I don’t believe that starting him does us any good in the long run.
You're reading what you want to read.
Most of us who are suggesting returning to Clausen are looking at it from a talent evaluation standpoint rather than a ‘winning in 2010’ standpoint.
Other than being robbed of the #1 overall by the expansion Texans in 2002 this is likely the first occasion the Panthers will pick this high, they MUST know what they have to work with… and if the argument is that Moore is just a game manager and Clausen is not good then even more-so is it necessary to know what we have before passing on a #1 overall QB.
This isn’t 2009 which is what I said at the Clausen switch, and again at the Moore switch. The 2010 Panthers have far more problems than just the QB… but doesn’t it make more sense to get all the growing pains over with in 2010 than pass on a franchise QB and find out too late that Clausen isn’t the guy?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Then put Clausen in to play with a terrible offensive scheme, that does not suit his skill set, with players at the other skill positions underachieving, and an OL that’s not blocking. What kind of evaluation can you make on rookie QB in that situation?!
If Clausen is the future QB, then the best bet is to stick with Moore. Putting Clausen in this season won’t accomplish anything outside of making the team worse in the short term and potentially getting Clausen injured or turned into David Carr.
by dudemanhey on Nov 1, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I know we all love the David Carr comparison… but Moore was only sacked 3 times yesterday by a team averaging much more than that.
In order for the David Carr comparison to apply we would be needing to give up almost 5 sacks every single game (the Texans gave up 76 his rookie year). As it stands we’re on pace to give up 41 this year, and for further comparison the New England Patriots are on pace to give up 27… so in reality we’re closer to the Pats this year than the Texans of 2002.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Why dont you respond to the other 95% of the content in this post rather than just the last 4 words?
Sure
You can make a damn sight better evaluation with him on the field than with him holding a clipboard, regardless of the team around him.
Furthermore, I dare say you can make a far better evaluation when the team is in the dumps. See Matt Moore as the cautionary tale for giving an established team to a QB and using that as the basis for his abilities.
The Peyton Manning’s of this league find a way to make plays and have good games in spite of the turmoil around them… if Clausen can do the same consistently (like he did against New Orleans when he posted a 90.6 rating despite everything else being crap) then you can say he’ll be exponentially better when the rest of the team is firing on all cylinders.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Thank you!
Steve Young didn’t even have the O-Line that Manning and Brady have today and still made things happen. I’m all for being a running team, but we need to find out if Clausen can be a playmaker or just another game manager. And I’m sick of having a manager type QB, it’s time we had a Manning under center
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 1, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
On that David Carr note I posted something on another thread that is wholly unrelated to MMO
*This was in regards to someone saying that they would rather have Freeney as opposed to Peppers on a draft “do-over.”
Freeney is an incredible pass rushing force unlike anyone else in the NFL. However, his game is suited to home….and turf. If you compare and contrast the number of sacks on turf to grass fields, his numbers drop dramatically. For his career Freeney has averaged ~0.7 sacks per game played. Yet 61% of these sacks occurred at home and ~18% occurred on the road at stadiums that use turf or are domes. 13.5 of his sacks occurred against the Houston Texans alone!!! (David Carr anyone?) Additionally the Colts record over his career they’ve won or have been leading in over 80% of their games!!! This equates to more pass rush opportunities. (Frankly he treats every down as a pass rush opportunity)
Conversely Peppers in the exact same amount of games has 83 sacks. Just 4 less than Freeney for his career and 48% of Peppers sacks occurred at home where the opposing team has to generally run from a silent count/snap and the D-line is at an advantage. Additionally, the Panthers have a worse record over his career (won ~60% of games over his career at Carolina) meaning he had fewer pass rush opportunities. Much more when you consider the scheme (remember Peppers dropping into coverage?) By the way Peppers also has 7 INTs whereas Freeney has none. And forced fumbles, that thing so many praise Freeney about? Well final tally there is 37 to 32. Also if you look at the number of recovered fumbles and INT Peppers has actually caused more turnovers.
So what am I saying in the end? Freeney is a unique pass rushing talent and as we all know sacks aren’t everything. He pressures the QB and changes schemes. But the same thing could be sad of Peppers. How many times have you seen him *almost * get to the QB and want to pull your hair out? Peppers "takes plays off" and Freeney is non-existent against the run. They both have "flaws" in their games (which are probably more scheme than anything). There’s the crux of the issue too. How many players in this league would have been great in a different system? Would Montana with his questionable arm strength been as great in a drop back down the field, play-action passing attack? Steve Young certainly failed miserably in that system before finding the "right" system with the Niners. So is it the scheme or the player? It is something we’ll probably never know for sure. For my money, I take Pep..
by adamwanderer on Nov 1, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
It is still too soon for people to admit that Peppers is a once in a generation type player
There is still too much resentment. It’s easier to disregard his accomplishment by attacking his character.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 1, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Peppers is a once in a generation type talent, yes
But a once in a generation type player? No dice… especially when so many other from the same generation put up better stats.
If Pep had a heart to go with the talent he could be putting up 25 sacks seasons consistently… on that I have absolutely no doubt. But, given that it never happened then no… he’s not a once in a generation player.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
"...so many other from the same generation put up better stats."
Who?
Without splitting hairs…who?
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 1, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
PS
I don’t want to get into another Pep back and forth, but no one has clearly better stats from 2002-2010.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 1, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
A 'generation' is defined as 25.2 years.... Peppers has 83 sacks in his career
- Jared Allen has just 10 less sacks in two full years less
- Dwight Freeney has 87 sacks in the same time frame
- Michael Strahan had 85 sacks from 1999-2007
- Reggie White had 88 sacks from 92-00
There are four right there with better stats… I didn’t say ‘clearly better’… but they’re still better. In order for Peppers to be the ‘once in a generation player’ he would need to be putting up much better years than these guys.
Elite? Yes
Better than the pack? No
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
acrobatic INTS, sideline to sideline pursuit, penalties caused by intimidation
These are a few of the things that those other guys don’t have. Ask the right sources about the guy who ‘draws’ the most false start penalties. It is Pep, and has been since he came into the league.
Those attributes make up for the tedious 4 sack advantage Freeney has. And Peppers has actually made a tackle in the run-game in his career.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 1, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
You left out "being in the area to strike fear in the QB"
Or … “he caused a disruption on that play”.
And what about “he drew the double team and allowed his teammate to make the play”
Meanwhile, on the next play he’s mysteriously taken out by the third string running back when it’s his turn to attempt to sack the quarterback.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
This again. Have you ever watched any other player so closely and caught all of his less than finer moments
And as soon as you see him single blocked by the back, you forget about the four pressures he had on 3rd down plays that actually allowed our defense to get off the field.
No other player has ever been scrutinized as highly because you are always watching him. What does that say?
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 1, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
It says that because I watched him play so much, I know how overrated he is. :-)
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Overrated?
I don’t care what other people think about the guy. I know what he is. And he is needed.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 1, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
He's only needed because we have nothing else.
But Peppers is overrated, and overpaid.
His whopping 2 sacks for the Bears this year proves just that.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
He's massively overrated.
He’s a good player, but he’s never reached his potential.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
7 INTs in 8 years? That’s the difference?
Notice I also said statistics… and last time I checked ‘sideline to sideline pursuit’ and ‘penalties caused by intimidation’ aren’t tracked statistics.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
stats are for losers
“If you watched the game and not just the box score you might have an idea”
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 1, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Well that one is probably gonna make you not happy. Whoops.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 1, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
(that was essentially a ‘JK’ James)
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 1, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
lol... Yes... I said it
It’s much easier to explain why stats aren’t there (i.e. Pep does more) than explain why they are (Moore had 3 INTs because…).
Yes, you watch Peppers closer and you see he does things that aren’t recorded, but you watch the other guys and they also do things that aren’t recorded in addition to doing things that are recorded.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Alright
But if anyone says we are better off without him, and would rather see Everette Brown playing paddy-cake with his OT, then they should be committed.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 1, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Its just unfortunate that things got sour.
He really made a difference…covered for some deficiencies we had elsewhere on the defense. Really watch it leaving your preconceived notions at the door. He did.
If anyone can say they are pleased with the pass-rush so far, then I’d say they need to raise their standards. What, 10 sacks in 7 games? Not awesome.
At this point, I can see it every game before it happens:
Eventually the lack of impact on opposing QBs leads way to a crucial third and/or early fourth quarter score(s), and the offense is so bad, if we get down by 10 its ballgame. Might as well be down by 100.
Bradford for example, early in the 4th with the score 10-3, hits on 6 of 7 passes for like 50 yards, and ends the drive (and effectively the game) with a 25 yard TD to his TE. On those 6 completions he had time to rub one out if he so pleased.
Without fail, the defense breaks every game and allows that crucial score that puts the game out of reach. I understand that the offense is partly responsible, having forced the defense to stay on the field all game, but with Peppers he would typically be the one to slam the hammer down and say ‘enough.’ It appears that our ability to do that has taken it on down the road (to the second city).
Until someone who can rush the passer comes to Carolina, we are going to see QBs lineup to play us…Eg: Bradford had his best game, almost by leaps and bounds, against your Panthers.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 1, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
On those 6 completions he had time to rub one out if he so pleased.
I couldn’t help but laugh at this.
But then, when I realized that he did have that much time, I cried.
But then I laughed again, because it was funny.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
“Try the veal”
—Darin Gantt
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 1, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
It's all about the DTs. They get no pressure up the middle,
so the OTs can just guide the DEs past the QB.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
limited resources
Pep blamed his teammates for not stepping up and having too much weight on his shoulders. However, pep made more than the entire rest of the DL combined, right? The dude was 10% of our cap. He is expected to step up and make plays, and he complained about that expectaction.
Its the reason I don’t like star players on our team. As much as it’d be nice to have Rivers or Brees, you sacrifice something at another position to have them due to the $$$. It turns into a game about a person, not a team (see NBA).
Talent wise... no, we're not better off without him
But, we could be in the end depending on how the Panthers spend the money that would have had to do to Peppers.
If losing Peppers means keeping more of the guys who are FAs, or getting an extension for Beason, or signing a player at a needed position then the drop in talent will be worth it.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Totally agree
Its just discouraging that there was an absolute refusal to do that this year. Epically so. Cut off your nose to spite your face kinda stuff here…
Lockout, Shmockout. You own an NFL franchise. If the offices in NY need a ‘role model’ position filled, or the owners need a ‘union head,’ then take that job. Until then it would be nice of you to at least pretend that you care about your team, your fanbase, and your reputation.
We can talk about how he’s ‘setting this team up for the future,’ and any other euphemisms we care to use. The fact is the future is now.
I’m curious as to what the reasons will be next year when we are the team with the lowest payroll in the entire league.
I need to rent Dennis Miller for an hour.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 1, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
It would appear that the FO took things a bit too far /sarcasm
I hated some of the cuts – several were only a realtively small savings – Hoover in particular.
That said – the Panthers were in cap jail, and likely to stay there. They had lost several players due to not being able to re-sign, and then had to go through the embarassment of giving MORE money to Jake in order to shift it to this year and get back under the cap.
How are the Patriots going to sgin all those draft picks? They are going to have to get incredibly creative.
by panthersnbraves on Nov 2, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Whats frustrating, PnB
is that they appear to be trying…and I never thought I’d say it, but, maybe the people who said they quit for the year back in March were right.
Speaking of those folks, southtunnel was quite prophetic, and took a bunch of shit about it all offseason. I’m not a big enough man to handle it like that…I’d be sitting here gloating like a bastard. Sharing old links with people at just the right time…5th grade stuff like that.
Dude just went ghost. Hope all is well. Anyone know?
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 2, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
That is true..
No ST, no Bacon. Perhaps the Sunday circus we’ve been putting on became too much for him to bare?
Overall Panthers Draft Grade: A
He was crying that the D would suck
It does not. It is the O and the coaching that is the problem. That is probably why he is not talking about it.
Granted though he probably thought every phase of our team would suck. He is a negative nancy lol
I am an optimist. It does not seem too much use being anything else.
~Winston Churchill
OH!
He was convinced that losing all the veteran players at once would hurt.
And he was right.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
I think a look at the breakdown on Freeney
I put together, who many consider to currently be the best pass rusher in the NFL (don’t even try Jared Allen…he’s such a liability against the rush even Freeney says damn dude at least act like you are trying) is worth looking at again.
I think history has jaded our views on the great pass rushers as we see highlights and not every single defensive play like we did Pep.
Here's why...
It’s about the draft next year. We desperately need to know whether or not Clausen will be the guy next year or if we should think about picking up one of the other top QB prospects while we have the chance. That way, we have our bases covered.
If we know Clausen is the future, we can draft another position of need.
If we know Clausen isn’t the guy, we can draft another QB to groom as well.
If we don’t know Clausen is the future, and we don’t draft another QB, and it turns out Clausen isn’t the future, we have missed our opportunity that we will rarely get again.
Moore is a game manager type QB…
Which is exactly why we should focus on getting another QB … I want a game-changing QB, not a game-managing one.*
*-And no, I’m not talking about Armanti.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
If i had brought up Armanti.
I would have gotten warned for trolling!
But since you brought him up……nah, i’ll spare that battle for another time.
*Whew*
Thank you. I’m not sure I could handle that argument
by adamwanderer on Nov 1, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Again.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
I'll make one comment today, and that's it. Say what you all want to.
I never said Moore “played a terrible game” yesterday. Where’d you read that from me?
I said he made mistakes. Just about everybody involved with the offense did. that’s why I’m not posting a play-by-play. Fe read them anyway, and even fewer comment on the real purpose of them: the identification of the missed blocks, the dropped passes, the wrong routes, the poor play calling that so often plays right into the defenses’ schemes, etc.
Drafting a new QB next year (a lot of what I’ve read) won’t improve results any more than switching back to Clausen – these are typical knee-jerk reactions from a lot of posters who’ve probably only been watching FB games for a few years, anyway. No QB can succeed in the Panthers’ system as it now stands.
At the outset of this season, the general consensus was that Moore would be successful as a “manager” of the game, i.e., hand off to our wonderful RBs, and occasionally take advantage of the coverage opportunities with a deep ball. Well, that’s impossible now, because we have NO running game. And that’s not Moore’s fault, but it falls on him, as it always does on the QB, from a fan base that sees their QB handling the ball on every snap, therefore failure to score is his fault. See where I’m going?
Our O-Line is the culprit behind every failure of our offense, the failure of Williams and Stewart to duplicate what they sis last year, and the sacks that our QBs suffer, and the pressures that missed blocks put on them, causing INTs and rushed decisions. Last year Vincent and Otah were stalwarts on the right side, and Hoover opened holes. Schwartz, Bernadeau, Garry Williams, and Fiammetta are open doors, and until they’re replaced by upgrades, any QB will deserve hazard pay, and RBs will never have holes to exploit. Simple as that.
Then you compound the problem, as great as it is, by play-calling that doesn’t optimize what talents we do have. Case in point: the opening play flea-flicker. Stupid. We had no idea what defense they were going to employ in the opening series, and the throw was right into the heart of their zone. Should have saved it for a time their MLB wouldn’t be 15-20 yds deep in coverage, and they had 8 guys in the box. Stupid.
I could go on and on, but it’s not Moore’s fault that we lost, any more than it’s Smith’s for dropping passes in his hands, or Stewart’s for not blasting through holes that aren’t there any more. It’s everybody’s, right down the line.
Sure, Moore threw 3 picks, and it looks terrible in the box score, but the first was a bad play call (that he should’ve aborted) and the last was underthrown because his arm was hit. Drew Brees threw 4 picks last week; was anybody on the Saints’ board calling for his head? Moore threw a lot of good passes, too, or he wouldn’t have had 23 completions. But for the picks, Moore had a similar game to Bradford, and everybody’s lauding him for a great game.
We’re doomed until the OL gets improvement, and Fiammetta gets replaced by Tyrell Sutton at FB. Over and out. Tomorrow, I’ll try to think of something different to say.
by bigdavis on Nov 1, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
My mistake bigD... I misread your comment
You said:
I wouldn’t say he performed miserably.
I thought you said ’I would say he performed miserably, and made a poor annotation.
I don’t really disagree with anything you’ve said other than:
Drafting a new QB next year (a lot of what I’ve read) won’t improve results any more than switching back to Clausen – these are typical knee-jerk reactions from a lot of posters who’ve probably only been watching FB games for a few years, anyway. No QB can succeed in the Panthers’ system as it now stands.
We’re all talking about the draft, and Clausen by extension with the tacit understanding they will be playing in a system completely different from ‘the Panthers’ system as it now stands’. That’s why the discussion of drafting a QB is there, and that’s why the discussion about seeing what Clausen has is there
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Just a quick two points
Moore was off on all his plays and in no way was having a good game. Even minus the picks. He made horrible decisions on 3rd downs. I mean really running 3 yds and sliding on 3rd and 20? Even his td was a bad throw but great play by lafell.
And on the saints board they were calling for brees head lol. They wanted chase daniels. Just a fun/funny fact. =D
Sure, Moore threw 3 picks, and it looks terrible in the box score, but the first was a bad play call (that he should’ve aborted) and the last was underthrown because his arm was hit.
I’ll give him the last one, because he was hit as he threw. But the first one that he should have aborted … well, he didn’t abort, and that’s the problem. He doesn’t make the smart play and just throw the ball away, instead he throws it right into the middle of a zone defense for an easy INT. So no one can be blamed on that but Matt Moore. Sure, Davidson made a beyond asinine play call, but Moore should have done the smart thing and tossed it out of bounds to live to play another down.
Drew Brees threw 4 picks last week; was anybody on the Saints’ board calling for his head?
Drew Brees is also a Top-3 QB who had a bad day. Moore is not.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Some on CSC (Canal Street Chronicles) were calling for Chase Daniel to start too...
Granted, they were the vast minority and were mocked… but still…
/facepalm
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Yeah I ignore those cries....
Brees to Daniel is a far greater drop-off than Moore to Clausen is.
Benching Drew Brees in favor of Chase Daniel would be like trading in your Porsche for a Ford Focus.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
A focus? Really?
I don’t know that’s fair. Those Ford Focuses are getting to be pretty snazzy little cars.
by The Duke Dude on Nov 1, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok.....
A 1985 Buick Skylark with a rusted hood and a cracked windshield that leaks oil and has 200,000 miles on it.
There, is that better? :-)
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Hmmm...true
How about:
A 1985 Buick Skylark with a rusted hood and a cracked windshield that leaks oil and has 200,000 miles on it.
with fuzzy dice and one of those tree shaped smelly things?
by The Duke Dude on Nov 1, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
He is erractic and he is running scared out there. If you can’t admit that, then you have not seen him play recently.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
The BLOCKING is erratic
Moore has no consistent time in the pocket, and the WRs are consistently dropping good passes. Plus, yesterday the team rushed 17 times for 25 yards! How can ANY QB make a performance look good in that circumstance?
Peyton Manning
Would find a way, just like Elway, Montana, and Marino did back in the day.
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 1, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
You have to also bear in mind that Manning has played in three offensive systems his whole life (HS, College, Pros).
He’s had a very good time of it.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
So....
What you’re saying is… It’s not Moore’s fault that the run game is bad, but it’s the run game’s fault that Moore is bad?
See the double standard? I do…
Thought about it? OK
Moore threw for 194 yards, despite dropped passes, missed blocks, etc.
The team rushed for 25 total yards (and 5 of those were Moore!)
And that means... what?
Those stats offer no insight into anything. Whatever string your using to connect these dots broke.
But you wouldn’t know that because you didn’t watch the game and see that 194 yards means nothing when you play as poorly as Moore did to get them.
If I may interject would either of you like a beverage, a bullhorn or perhaps a nice cup of tea?
Same side…just sayin’
by adamwanderer on Nov 1, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Hug it out guys
offers chilled tequila
Good to know so many fans still care.
by adamwanderer on Nov 1, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha!
That’s Hilarious, but wait I can’t be making fun of Carolina’s Golden cub!!!
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 1, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
I say we blame Richardson. We can do it since evidently he is the man at the top. The buck stops here!
by adamwanderer on Nov 1, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I do!
It is cooling in my trunk actually
by adamwanderer on Nov 1, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve seen the guy in the pocket with time to throw, and over throw the hell out of receivers. If you say I am wrong, then I will say again that you have not watched him play recently. And please spear me the same old " O-line didn’t block" routine. If Moore is as great as you think he is, then he should be able to get that ball out to his man without a problem, and it is PAINFULLY OBVIOUS he isn’t doing that.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
I don't think Moore's "great"
I think he’s not “terrible” and is taking too much blame for the failures of an overall poor playing team.
I blame the coaches for this disastrous season.
The blame can definitely go around. But Moore has not provided a solution to the problem. 1 win in a crap season doesn’t make his situation any better for us.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
There have been so many dropped passes in critical situations for Moore.
A catch here by Rosario, and there by Smith, and Moore could easily be 3-1 instead of 1-3.
I don’t know about that. As you say the problems stem deeper than just Moore, which is true. I doubt one pass either way makes much of a difference in any of the games we have lost. We have barely been in position to even be close to winning any games this season.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Yesterday was 10 points
Smith’s drop and fumble were huge!
Rosario’s dropped pass against TB was a for sure TD too, that would make that score 20-14.
Perhaps. But say Smith doesn’t fumble or drop the ball. Is there any evidence to support the fact that we could have still scored a FG much less a TD?
And against TB, assuming as you say it was a sure TD, what makes you think we could have scored a TD after that? The offense was horrid in that game as well, and there were no indications we were going to get better. Just trying to point out to ya that one dropped pass or fumble in our games wasn’t the swinging point for us losing.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
One thong Moore has done with some consistency is move the ball in a hurry up offense.
My take on that, is that Moore could be pretty decent if Fox and/or Davidson wasn’t messing up the play calling.
I agree with that. The hurry up has been the best thing for moving the offense. I myself don’t understand why e just don’t run that hurry up throughout the game. Not like we can play any worse….
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Now that...
…is one of the better (and more realistic) ideas I’ve heard in a while.
by The Duke Dude on Nov 1, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Every offense moves the ball better in the 2 minute drill
That’s the whole point. You keep the same defense on the field.
is taking too much blame for the failures of an overall poor playing team.
From who exactly? Maybe I’m being overly defensive, but I don’t blame Moore for losing the game, but I do hold him accountable for being apart (a big part for that matter) of an offense that was absolutely, unconditionally, appallingly offensive to all 5 senses.
Same goes for Smith, the Oline, and Stewart. I’m don’t go easy on criticisms on anyone.
I'm on the same page as you Dude, but.......
I direct most of the blame on the Front office. I have no problem with youth movements with an eye to the future, but to do so with a lame duck coaching staff in place is a recipe for disaster. As far as yesterday goes, Moore wasn’t good, but it was far from the worst QB play we’ve had this season. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the players circle the wagons and beat the Saints next week.
I agree.
The veteran purge is the cause of most of our problems. Lame duck coaching status comes in a close second. I don’t think anyone is intentionally doing a bad job. It is just a byproduct of the circumstances. I had an eerie feeling about this season when they let all the vets go. I hoped that they might bring some back, but alas, only Brayton. Fu@k you Jerry Richardson, Fu@k you very much!
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Where are you guys getting this
there was like 1 maybe 2 drops the whole game! This is NOT on the WR’s at all.
that second one was not a drop
That would have been an AMAZING catch it was behind smitty and high and he still almost came down with it on the sideline
Technically it is a drop, because he, well, dropped it.
But I get what you’re saying. Most receivers don’t even come close to sniffing that ball.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
AWESOME (per Gantt via Twitter)
Fox didn’t say anything about injuries last night, but Schwartz was limping around the locker room a bit. They don’t need that.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
MAN!
You would think The Saints used some kind of Voodoo magic and dump the Madden curse on us!!!
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 1, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Well Brees *does * lead the league in INTs...
by adamwanderer on Nov 1, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
yea
but they were still able to beat a very good steeler team last night. He may lead the league in INTS but he’s still got his Saints fighting.
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 1, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
just a ommentary on the Madden curse actualy working
Brees’ mojo is just too strong.
by adamwanderer on Nov 1, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm telling you
He’s got the Voodoo on his side.
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 1, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Can’t wait to see what that mojo will do to us next week…
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Well
The Saints having been having off weeks every other weeks for the past few….so maybe they have an off week with us and we sneak out a win!
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 1, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey
after having suffered through that 1-15 season, you tend to let seasons like this kinda go by. I’m just glad I’m able to see my panthers play.
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 1, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
To young to care about football in ’01… I am not accustomed to us losing so many games.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
That's ok though
Once you weather the storm once, it’s not so bad the next time it comes around. Hey I see this as a perfect opportunity to give the reins back to clausen and see how he does. And even if they want him to sit and learn, if the season is lost, why not try Pike out and see what he can bring to the table.
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 1, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
We were so bad yesterday....
that EVEN I am at a LOSS FOR WORDS.
How often does that happen?!?!?!?
Literally, I have on three separate occasions so far started to reply to comments and stopped myself because it came out as pure oral diarrhea and I don’t want to start flinging it all over the walls like a monkey playing relief pitcher for the Texas Rangers.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
As someone who was at the game...
I think I can righteously say that it was just a terrible game all around, with only a couple of bright spots to keep me in my seat. In response to the comment that Gettis didn’t perform that well today, I can easily counter that by talking about Matt Moore and his poor decision making. On multiple plays, Gettis simply beat his man, again and again and was wide open, and yet Moore did what he always does and simply locked on to one receiver, pre-snap it seems, and threw it to him whenever. He doesn’t seem to go through any reads, or he would have seen that Gettis was open time and again. Secondly, my respect for Steve Smith fell immensely this week. After every play in which he didn’t get the ball, he would simply stroll back to the line or the bench, and on those occasions when he went to the bench, he’d just sit there and not talk to anyone, not the Smitty I know and love. The defense showed up today, to an extent, but there’s only so much they can do when three and outs and turnovers are the norm for the team’s offense. I was disappointed in our lack of turnovers, there were a couple Bradford passes that should have been picked off (but lord does he throw safe). Anderson, as stated, played a great game, always hustling, moving to where he needed to, and showing great anticipation. Beason also hustled well, but bit pretty hard on most of the play fakes.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m with many others when I say I’m still optimistic. I stayed at that game the whole way through, muttering to myself that we only needed one more scoring drive, a quick onside, and a field goal to tie it up, send it to OT, win the coin flip, etc. and I still cheered and held my head up high through the heckling as I left. But this game was bad to watch by anyone’s standards. I know the Rams well and I knew this wasn’t going to be a gimme game, but it should have been at least somewhat close. I’ll keep hoping for next week and either our playoff spot or high draft pick.
PS. most entertaining moments:
Clowney’s catch being ruled a catch (loudest boos I’ve ever heard)
Goodson’s tackle on Otagwe when he leapt for the end zone (killed him)
Rosario’s clearing hurdle (wish they would have replayed it one more time)
Thank you for your first hand insight.
Good to know that Gettis was performing well despite not being thrown to. I simply couldn’t find him on the screen most of the day.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
If I remember right, the rest of the games were already sold out, or close to being sold out.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
oh definitely
To encourage fans to show up, JR should put up a sign that says “Free Bordeaux and Brie”
That should keep the wine-n-cheesers interested.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Me too.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
FREE BORDEAUX AND BRIE FOR ALL FANS
DISCLAIMER: YOU HAVE TO WATCH THE ENTIRE GAME
Fan 1: Man, we have to watch the whole game? But we suck.
Fan 2: But, it’s a 1976 Bordeaux … we can’t suck that bad.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Knowing the way things are going the ’76 Bordeaux has already turned to vinegar
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
LOL
So, we’ll make some pickles with it.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
As soon as I saw the comment, I knew this was coming.
We really ought to get someone to redraw this with Clausen’s face instead.
I will try to photoshop something with it tonight.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
LOL!
Thanks for not disappointing me James
by The Duke Dude on Nov 1, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
could just throw open the gates...
advertise free T-bird and and Mad Dog. Call it the less fortunate appreciation tour.
Less fortunate appreciation tour..... LOL
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
New coach NOW!
I think we all agree that the coaching staff is on the way out. That being said why not go ahead and hire Cowher or Gruden to coach out the rest of the season. Keep Meeks and replace Davidson with a person that understands how an offense works and can make changes to his gameplan. We lack LEADERSHIP in the locker room(coaches) on the field(QB), Cowher and Gruden are already being talked about so much lets grab one of them before the other teams do, there are going to be at least 5-6 headcoaching jobs come open this year. I agree Moore will be gone after next year, that leaves Clausen and Pike. Let Pike try to play a little at least like as has been said we know if we need to draft a QB next year.
too late now....
I was lobbying for a change during the bye….at least give him 2 weeks to get something going. But we whiffed on that chance.
When we get to week 10
That’s when I think we make the switch.
We will have played 9 games and have what’s looking like 8 losses at this point going into a game that will be quite impossible to win if we continue to play as we have. At that point, if we do go 1-9, it will be an official losing season, and there will be nothing left to gain by “playing to win” anymore.
If John Fox cared about his job he would can Davidson...
but he doesn’t so he won’t. Why should he embarrass his friend like that? Oh…maybe maybe because his offense embarrasses us all
I'm not sure he has that legislation anymore, Jaxon
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 1, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
any thoughts?
per Adam Schefter of ESPN on up and coming coord’s: The first name that comes to mind is Leslie Frazier with the Vikings. He’ll get his chance soon enough. So will Chargers defensive coordinator Ron Rivera and Giants defensive coordinator Perry Fewell. Rob Ryan of the Browns is making some noise this year, and his brother Rex’s success has to help him. And I’m a fan of Patriots linebackers coach Matt Patricia, though he probably will have to serve as a coordinator first.
I think they go offense for the HC this time around.
And… wait for it… don’t laugh… I would have no problem with Wade Phillips being the DC. He’s a guy who is perfectly suited to be a coordinator provided there is a voice.
Honestly, I love Ron Meeks but chances are slim that he makes it through a new HC hiring.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I agree
Wade Phillips = excellent DC, poor HC.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
I believe Wade always runs the 3-4, doesn't he?
Not that I have a problem with changing, just an observation. It would take some time to transition to that. We would need to acquire at least 4-5 players, with 3 of them being the down linemen just to get started.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
I wonder if JR cares one way or the other?
I would just hate to switch at this point with a defense set up around a 4-3…another year of transition…
I agree.
One good thing about the 3-4 is that it’s easier to find the players (LB’s and DE’s) for the scheme. A good 2 gaping nose tackle takes some creative scouting, but is still easier to find than a pass rushing DE. Great 4-3 defensive ends are really hard to come by.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Not any more it's not.
Half the league plays the 3-4 these days. The Steelers etc used to get away with drafting their playmakers low in the draft because they were tweeners. Now half the league is after those same guys.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
It all comes down to quickness off the edge, and push up the middle.
Regardless of what defense you play, you need both.
Most of those guys playing OLB in a 3-4 could easily put a hand down and rush from the traditional DE spot. Most of them played DE in a 4-3 in college. And most 3-4 teams have a ‘dime’ package where they rush 4 lineman and drop 7 (6 DBs and 1 LB) into coverage.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 1, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Most of the guys that excelled in the 4-3 in college aren't big enough to stand up against the run in the pros.
It’s partly why the 3-4 has taken off the way it has. Those guys can rush standing up instead.
The best offensive co-ordinators take advantage of that and pressure them to hold their own in the passing game. Most of them can’t do it.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
There is a lot larger pool of talent to pull from when looking at the 3-4 defense.
Size isn’t as important as it is in the 4-3. That was my point. Never discussed draft position.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Size is HUGELY important in the 3-4. If you put out tiny LBs you're going to get blown off the ball
in the running game.
Look at the Steelers. Their OLB are huge, they basically play with 5 defensive linemen.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Most 3-4 linebackers are tweeners.
Too small to play DE in a 4-3 and not athletic enough to play LB in a 4-3. Yes, they are bigger than 4-3 LB’s but they are a lot easier to find. There are a ton of college DE’s every year that are too small for the position in the NFL. The 3-4 DE’s are pretty much the same guys that would play DT in a 4-3. These guys are easier to find than 4-3 DE’s. A good two gapping nose tackle is the hardest position to fill and obviously the biggest dude in the front seven. This is the position where size is important.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Great comment
But they are all Defensive coaches, I think Meeks has the defense set maybe he will be the new headcoach, Hmmmmm? VERRRRRY INTERSSSTINK!!!
No thanks to Meeks.
Hasn’t proven himself worthy to me. You know, it’s funny. A lot of people have tossed around the theory that Fox has his thumb on the offense and that maybe Davidson isn’t solely responsible for our play calling woes. They point to Dan Henning as an example. He’s been much more creative since leaving Carolina. I’ve brought this up before, but no one seems to give any credence to my theory. I think Fox has his thumb on the defense too. After all, he is a defensive coach with a very successful defensive coordinator background. If it’s possible that he’s partially causing the problems on offense, why isn’t it just as likely that he’s partially responsible for our success on defense? Personally, I think that he is. That is why I’m not sold on Meeks being as good as some people think he is. He wasn’t that great at Indy. Why is he now a genius?
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Couple reasons...
I think our defense overall is more talented than Indy’s, especially our LBs. Our organization’s identity is also more devoted to defense (drafts and what not) than Indy’s.
And Meeks’s system in Indy worked well, with the exception of maybe 2 years where they were like 31st in rushing defense.
The D in Indy was made up from the scrapheap.
All the money on that team went to the O.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
I agree, our defense is more talented than Indy's.
And it has nothing to do with Ron Meeks. All he needed to fix when he got here was the pass D. He did it with scheme, but it was nothing that he invented. What makes this guy a genius and a potential good head coach? Trgovac led better defenses than Meeks (4 of the 6 years they were both coordinators). Why’s he not a genius?
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
He did it with scheme, but it was nothing that he invented.
So you have to invent a scheme to be a good coordinator?
by SlayerGhaleon on Nov 1, 2010 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
No, not to be a good coordinator. I never made that statement. Please read the rest of the posts.
But I think you should have innovated something of your own to be considered a “defensive genius”. I’ve seen him referred to as this here several times. I don’t buy it. In my opinion, he’s not worthy of head coach consideration. He’s been average as a coordinator for his entire career.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
good theory...
but observing Fox during games doesn’t lead me to believe he’s calling anything. Davidson’s obviously the guy with his nose in the playbook. Pre-game? Well that’s another story…
Never said he was calling anything.
Said he had his thumb on the offense. I didn’t but others have implied as much. From what I’ve seen, they are probably correct.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Not with that hair.
Richardson’s not hiring a hippie.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
I know one thing....
If I’m going to keep watching this shit on Sunday, I’m going to have to fire up a big fatty to get thru it.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Too Old
Dick LeBeau is a great coach but he is also 72
lol
he looks like the michelin tire man with that jacket on
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
This explains where they got the cover art for Up
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
by BW Smith on Nov 1, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
OMG
That is perfect!
Oh… and look… little Jeff Davidson is along for the ride
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Nov 1, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
LMAO @ Davidson
That is hilarious
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
I'm Rec'ing both these comments
For bringing some much needed brightness to my Monday.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
Age
Not the same thing he has had an ESTABLISHED staff there with him for 30+ years, but lord I do love the way Paterno coaches
Oh... I know
Honestly… I just wanted an excuse to post a picture of Joe-Pa
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I Imagine
that he must feel defeated the way they played. But I believe Smitty’s mistakes came from him trying WAY to hard to spark the offense. We really need to find some kind of spark somewhere or the rest of the season will be a VERY LONG ONE. They should start Pike to see what the guy has. I mean, if they want Clasuen to sit to prevent a David Carr scenario, what have we got to lose by starting Pike???
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 1, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
…what have we got to lose by starting Pike???
More football games.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
We're
Almost out of contention for the playoffs. I don’t understand all this negativity against Pike. If they do start him and he stinks it up then fine I’ll regress my support of him….Hell I’d rather have him start than Cantwell!
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 1, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Can't Throw Well's not on the roster
The negativity against Pike is that he has hardly any arm strength, played in a spread offense system, and is the 3rd or 4th best QB on the team, all of which is accurate and justifiable.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
I know
Cantwell’s not on the roster, i just can’t understand why there are people on here that would want him back… and answer your reasons as to the negativity against Pike: Hardly has arm strength-Can improve; played in spread-doesn’t mean he can’t transition to pro style; and is the 3rd best QB on the roster-How do you know if he hasn’t had a start in the NFL with the 1s??? The guy has a winning attitude and has tremendous upside IMO.
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 1, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
His arm strength can’t improve in time enough this season to be effective.
Name five successful NFL QB’s who came from the spread offense. I’ll give you a head start and name some of the recent QB’s who lit it up in college in the spread: Alex Smith, Graham Harrell, Pat White. None of them are successful in the NFL, unless you count Smith’s #1 draft pick status as a success.
If he were better than Moore or Clausen, he would have seen the field by now.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
What about Big Ben?
He ran a form of the spread offense? And I’m not saying he should be the bona fide starter, I’m saying we should start him to see if there is enough upside with him to keep him on the roster.
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 1, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
One down, four to go.
The point is: The spread offense ruins more QB’s in terms of being NFL ready than it helps them.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
I can only think of a few.
- Drew Brees and Kyle Orton (both from Purdue)
- Bradford is doing pretty well, though they don’t ask much of him.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Ok fine
It’s hard to transition, but just because most struggle is no excuse not to look at what we have with Pike.
Superbowl Champs 2010!!!!
by Panther4Life!!! on Nov 1, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
The safety of our players > you wanting to see if Pike is a QB in the NFL
He is just going to get WRs hurt. And he will never fix that problem. He might be able to put a little more zip on the ball one day. very little though. We do not run a scheme that he can be successfull in. If this were DEN, CLE, ARI, SF, etc. then maybe. but not here, not this year.
I am an optimist. It does not seem too much use being anything else.
~Winston Churchill
OH!
You keep saying Pike is going to get someone hurt. If this is the case, why did he ever make it into the NFL? Maybe I don’t fully understand what you’re saying but I don’t see anything behind it.
Overall Panthers Draft Grade: A
If he floats one of those slow ass balls in the NFL
It gives the D more time to get there to make the hit… hey but you know with the rule changes and guys trying to take it easy now then maybe it wont be a problem. I just know I wouldnt want to be out there in the middle of the field waiting to try and catch one of his slow motion passes with Troy Polamalu trying to stop me from doing so.
I am an optimist. It does not seem too much use being anything else.
~Winston Churchill
OH!
Don't worry..
By the time Pike starts, defenders will be required to A) let the receiver complete the catch and B) allow them at least three up-field steps before initiating contact.
Overall Panthers Draft Grade: A
Great post!
not gonna read all of the comments…
I’m actually really looking forward to what are linebacker corp can do when Thomas Davis comes back. We can then move Beason back to the middle where he is a monster, and have Anderson and Davis playing the strong and weak side positions. All three of those guys are pro bowl caliber players. Now if we can get ourselves a run stuffer, the D will be set.
Notice Gettis did not get a single catch?
My fantasy team noticed, that's for sure.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
What to draft... what to draft... what to draft...
First, I thought QB, but having Clausen picked last year makes me hesitant because he’s young and we don’t know if we need another QB.
Then I thought WR, but LaFell and Gettis are starting to really come into their own I think, so I don’t know if that’s an immediate need.
Finally, I thought Oline… but then I realized if Otah were playing we would be fine, or at least could wait to grab a guard in the 3rd round.
I just don’t know. It’s hard to justify any pick over any other at this point.
Gonna be hard to prognosticate anything right now
Gotta see where we stand once free agency comes around. See who got new contracts and who didn’t, not to mention the status of the CBA.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
"but then I realized if Otah were playing we would be fine"
I don’t like that thinking, because that’s the exact same thing we were thinking while Otah was healthy (Otah is playing, we should be fine). If he’s been injured once, there’s a more likely chance he’ll do it again.
I can’t rely on one player anymore, which is what we have been doing with Otah. The O-Line has NO depth, and even when Otah comes back, he will not be the same driving force. The O-Line needs all the help first (though I DESPERATELY want Dwayne Harris of ECU)… I’d say then we work on getting Beason back to his real place. He’s doing great, but that doesn’t mean he’s hitting his true potential.
I wasn't suggesting ignoring the O-line
but it’s not what I would qualify as an urgent, immediate concern. I definitely think we can find decent talent in the 3rd round.
"but it’s not what I would qualify as an urgent, immediate concern. "
settling for “decent” (cheap?) talent is what got us into this. We can’t settle for decent in one position while drafting in a position where we’re already more than decent… Moore and Clausen definitely need to stay. Pike is in our pocket for a future trade, and I think I’d put Edwards into “future trade” too.
Your QB is doing bad because of lack of protection/time, and because his running game is not getting it done. Draft in RB before you draft QB…
How is 3rd round talent "cheap"
Settling for 6th and 7th round talent (Schwartz and MacBern) is what got us into this mess. And quite honestly, they are playing like 6th and 7th round talent.
2006: James Anderson*
2006: Rashad Butler
2007: Charles Johnson*
2008: Charles Godfrey*
2008: Dan Connor*
2009: Corvey Irvin
2010: Brandon LaFell*
2010: Armanti Edwards
- = Starter.
Did you know...?
That 2006 3rd-rounder Rashad Butler is currently the starting LT for the Houston Texans.
That’s all I got.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 1, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
He was the guy that had some sort of illness.
He couldn’t retain weight.
He went to the Texans and their doctors diagnosed it.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Since the regular starter Duane Brown is back from suspension, Butler is on the bench again.
Which is good for them, because he looked not good at times, especially against the bull rush.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 2, 2010 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Ace
We are talking offensive linemen; not WRs, Defensive…
OF COURSE the third round can give great players, but they’re not being picked Round 1. Focus on what we NEED, not what we have.
QB: Check.
WR: Check.
O-Linemen: No check.
For the Armanti lovers
I would call for John Fox’s immediate firing if he decided to waste precious practice time on putting Armanti into the QB slot.
Thanks for bringing it up.
We’ve not discussed it nearly enough.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Fox < Moore
We’ll get to that title in a second, but let me just say this: I read CSR every day in hopes there will be a lot to read, a lot of material to cover… but we root for a losing team and nobody wants to spend a whole column dissecting bad plays. But we get along with traditional columns and fun stuff. I don’t comment much, but that doesn’t mean I’m not reading all the time. So, to the writers and people leaving comments (and I love the comments better than the articles ahahah), THANK YOU! It would be insanely difficult to go from Monday to Sunday morning with nothing to read/not getting involved in some way in the Panthers.
Now, that title. I am comparing a coach to a quarterback, yes. But on game days, they’re sort of the same. Coach overlooks the gameplan, the team, the adjustments, etc. Quarterback overlooks the defense, the players, the audibles, etc. They’re similar, albeit the coach overlooks even the quarterback.
Get out of the logistics, and let’s just compare them as people. John Fox is in his last year, attempting to spark a team that most of whom have never experienced a “spark” or even a “fire” in the NFL… (they’re experiencing a rainstorm while trying to light a match)… John Fox will coach in the NFL this year, the next, and for a while after that. Hopefully whatever team he gets to next time, he’ll have clearer thinking than he has had this season.
Matt Moore though, this guy has no safety of having a starter job. I’m sure some teams would immediately take him as a back-up, but I think Matt is Moore than just a back-up. He’s had such a tough season, injured by Giants and ultimately benched for a rookie. Then you come back with the greatest game of your career. The next week? Your O-Line crumbles and everything you try to do right is messed up by either great secondary play, bad catcher play, or even (a very few times) bad QB play.
But I want to give this guy major credit… to stand up like he has against the G-Damn Giants D-Line!? Then go up against the St. Louis D-Line that was pouring through holes (yet only put up 3 sacks)… He has great guts. This kid has gotten hit horribly not every game, but every quarter.
I hope (and sort of know) that Fox won’t be around next year, but I really hope Moore is. I LOVE Clausen too, more than Moore, but what he’s shown me against San Fran and St Louis is great. I hope Jimmy can get better and play at the level at Moore is, and I think he WILL some day. If only our running game could play into the game, which depends on our O-Line… but… yeah. I just wanted to post how much I am admiring Matt. I’m sure he feels awful about the game and his performance (3 INTS), but I think he’s doing wonderful for such a sloppy coach crew, game calling, and team game playing.
Everyone’s giving up on Moore… but he’s strong. I would hate to see Panthers play INDY, but I’D LOVE TO at the same time. Moore against their Defense… ahaha… Panthers are crap this year, but i’ll watch every game for this individual talent. These are our guys, and win or lose, they’re putting their health on the line for us. That takes incredible guts. Thanks guys! Should be a great game against New Orleans. I don’t think we’ll hit .500, but we certainly have the ability to beat any remaining team. Just things need to start clicking.
by scatterbrain on Nov 1, 2010 3:13 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm inspired by your post to comment again today.
(Too many of us make redundant posts, just to hear ourselves talk – or see our names on the screen; whatever. I don’t want to be in that group.)
Your comment about Moore’s attitude and courage struck a chord with me, and I can’t fathom why more of our “fans” don’t share that admiration.
Because he’s laid-back, says the right things, doesn’t look for a microphone, doesn’t do commercials, acted with class when he was benched, isn’t timid about his decisions (sometimes misguided, but never timid), and not from a pedigreed background, he’s been dismissed as a lame-duck, non-essential, temp worker.
I’d challenge any poster here, or any QB on our roster, to suffer a concussion, keep getting the pressures, hits and sacks he receives every week, from an O-Line that can’t sustain a pocket for more than 2 seconds, and stand up to it with 23 completions. Other than Travelle Wharton, there’s not a guy supposedly protecting him that hasn’t been guilty of allowing trespassers by them with the regularity of fat, old, drunk security guards with no bullets in their guns. And the worst thing he utters is “there was a LOT going on.”
We’ve got to face the fact that the Panthers may never win another game this year, the way the plays, blocking, and routes break down — but let’s give the guy who’s taking the bulk of the pressure (both on and off the field) some damn credit.
As shown last week, he’s accurate and sharp with his passes when given the right plays, and the protection to throw them, and the receivers to hold onto them, when hit in the face with them.
Back to my nap again, ’til tomorrow, when I promise a rant on why Greg Hardy must replace Tyler Brayton.
Totally!
I’ve seen your comments around here, bigdavis, and it’s REALLY uplifting to get your support :)
basically the most important thing I said to DT3…
Matt Moore had a great team last year, and you saw how he was able to apply it. Now he’s bogged down by this struggling team, and it doesn’t show HIS lack of play/ability, but the team’s. I’m afraid those huge cuts at the beginning of the year shook up this team in a bad way…
Im about to cry
Come on Man, This is the NFL not some watered down cry baby clinic. You praise Moore so much for being “Strong” having great “Guts” Every single QB in the league is going to keep playing whether they get hit or not. I mean is he supposed to get up and cry off the field because he got a little pressure in his face NO!! Of Course he is going to keep playing. Honestly I don’t care if Philip Rivers is our QB with his cockiness we someone who can win games for us and MATT MOORE CANT WIN GAMES FOR US!!! Its that simple. Matt Moore is not a baby he is a grown ass man and he should get back up and take hits thats why he is in the NFL duh!!! And please for the love of God dont make statements like “I hope Jimmy can get better and play at the level at Moore is, and I think he WILL some day.” because Matt Moore is not playing well so don’t put that curse on him like that
I agree with you
“This is the NFL not some watered down cry baby clinic.”
Correct, that was my point. It takes men to play in this league. I never said anything about other QBs, just Matt Moore.
“Every single QB in the league is going to keep playing whether they get hit or not.”
And THAT is why Matt Moore is great. He’s in the same class as these guys. He’s playing against them, with them. I am sitting at home watching this, and have to hear about how horrible Matt Moore is… he is NOT bad. He played with a GREAT Panthers team last year, and you saw what he can do with that sort of potential all around him. He’s bogged down by D. Williams, J. Stewart, and the whole O-Line right now, though.
“ts that simple. Matt Moore is not a baby he is a grown ass man and he should get back up and take hits thats why he is in the NFL duh!!!”
I’m sorry that you’re looking all into the negatives of what you’re saying. You’re really not reading YOUR OWN WORDS straight-forward… Matt Moore DOES get back up, and he DOES take those hits. Why are you going against me on this when you agree with me!?!?
This statement sums up the issue:
He played with a GREAT Panthers team last year, and you saw what he can do with that sort of potential all around him. He’s bogged down by D. Williams, J. Stewart, and the whole O-Line right now, though.
I agree 100%… so by this rationale Matt Moore is an amazing QB provided the OL are dominant and the run game is averaging 166.6 yards per game. So… what happens when the OL isn’t getting the push needed, or the run game is having an off day? We should just pack the entire game up knowing we can’t rely on our QB unless all the other conditions of victory are met?
This doesn’t just date back to 2009 either. Look at 2007, in his two wins the Panthers ran for 114 and 167 yards respectively, and in his one loss they ran for 69.
We need a QB who can carry the team, or at least compete if all other facets of the game are failing; I just don’t see that Moore can do that.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
James, this is true
But not under the Panthers philosophy of run, run, run. It has always been get a quarterback who complements the run, and we’ve always had someone to step up to make big strides.
What you’re saying is that you’re putting the game on Matt Moore.
I want a team that can carry itself, and does not rely on any quarterback. Jake did not carry the team, Peppers and Smith and Kasay and Beason; and others that would be debated: Witherspoon, Minter, Walls… We need reliable players at their position. So far, we have none in the O-Line, none quite for WR (though I would trust Steve Smith with every throw, if it came to that)…
It's a two way street
The run game needs to support a QB when he’s not performing, and the QB needs to support the run game when they’re having an off day.
I agree we need reliable players at their position… but Moore hasn’t proven himself to be reliable (see his 6 starts over 90 rating, 4 starts under 75).
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
And our running game has proven itself reliable this season?
by scatterbrain on Nov 1, 2010 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is why Moore has struggled ... because he hasn't had a running game.
I want a QB that can put the team on his shoulders and carry it to victory if the running game can’t get going. I want a guy like Brady, Manning, or Brees under center, where I can be confident that the QB will be able to carry the offense if need be. I don’t see that in Moore, and I don’t know if I ever will.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Running should be hard and passing should be easy
Look at how many people D’s are stacking against us. Most QBs would be licking their chops since there would be single coverage on at least 1 WR, RB, and TE. We should be able to find one at least of those guys pretty consistently. Our OL has gotten a lot better at pass protection when compared to the beginning of the season, now it is time for our QB and WRs to show us something. I think we’ve seen our rookie WRs playing acceptably. We now need to see improved QB play. Playcalling has something to do with this (like something we see the Rams running) but Matt consistently locks on to one guy, doesn’t bother looking anyone off, and throws the ball off his back foot too often. If Matt can just look guys off by quickly scanning the field at he beginning of a play, all the other sins might be papered over.
Hopefully Matt can rediscover “good Matt” this week and we can shock the world this weekend.
Why did we win?
Sounds like this, from NFL.com, is why we won…
“Richard Marshall intercepted a David Carr pass with just over 1 minute left, and John Kasay then kicked a 37-yard field goal with 39 seconds remaining to give the Carolina Panthers their first win of the season, 23-20, over the San Francisco 49ers on Sunday.”
Sounds like we lose another game if Marshall doesn’t make that INT. Moore had a good day. James didn’t say Moore doesn’t have good games, but that he isn’t consistent enough, as was proven last week. If the argument is that Moore can’t win games without the running game (as it sounds), then that was entirely true against the 49’ers. The run game sucked and without a Marshall INT to set up the field goal, we lose.
Overall Panthers Draft Grade: A
You tell me? Do you honestly think we beat the 49’ers without the late, game changing INT? I’d like to know how that would play out.
Overall Panthers Draft Grade: A
that would depend on the play of the defense
if they didnt get the pick and S.F. scored then we would probably lose. then we’d still have this very discussion. but he helped us get back in the game. him AND gettis. both were ineffective yesterday
SF was on their 25 yard line with 1 minute to play 20-20
It was going into OT without that pick. Short term memory, guys? It let us seal the deal, we were already outplaying them the entire 4th qtr.
Their fate was sealed...
When Carr came in. They weren’t going to march down the field with Carr in any case. The fact that Carr isn’t starting should tell you something about Carr’s play and Singletary’s confidence in the guy.
If you like
We could also talk about how Charles Johnson took their 87.4 rated QB out of the game when the 49ers were tied 10-10 and their 38.5 rated backup completed less than 40% of his passes, went 1-5 on third down and gave up a critical INT also.
A win’s a win and injuries are part of the NFL, but Sunday proved that Matt Moore can’t win a game on his own.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
You're right
See below.
The 49ers game was the only game in 12 starts he won where the Panthers ran for less than 100 yards.
For comparison in 2006 Delhomme won 4 games when the run game gave less than 100 yards.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Precisely
Sure, we can find a single example and try and use that to argue a point, but when Moore is:
- 5-2 when the Panthers rush for over 100 yards
- 1-4 when the Panthers rush for less than 100 yards
and
- 5-2 when Moore throws less than 30 times
- 2-3 when Moore throws more than 30 times
Then what is the more likely scenario: That Moore was the reason for the wins or the rushing game?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Could be said that without that drop by Gettis we would have never needed that field goal.
Hell with it and the additional TD we could have won by 10.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
This is very true also
It just further shows that football is a collaborative effort.
Moore is not the sole reason for the losses this season, nor is he the sole reason for the wins; but, that being said, he’s also not the guy who can pull a team up by their bootstraps when everything is failing.
I want a guy who can do that… whoever it is.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
DUH, everybody wants a QB like that on their team.
The FACT is that there are not enough QB’s like that for every team to have one on their roster.
I agree with you, but most of all the coaching needs to recognize this
I have no clue why we are trying to throw 30 yard bombs and run double reverses when defenders are in our backfield in less than 2 seconds. It is a recipe for disaster. Moore has a quick release and good arm strength, there is absolutely zero reason to not utilize the short game to make the linebackers honest. Yes, having Moore in opens up the deep threat (that and the hurry-up offense is why I think he’s playing over Clausen), but that doesn’t mean you use it every damn play. Cater your playcalling around your team’s weaknesses so 100% execution isn’t required to win a game. Our playcalling doesn’t account for the fact that a perfect game doesn’t exist.
Moore is being set up to fail because the offensive playcalling (pun intended) is for the 2007 panthers lineup, not the 2010 panthers.
I was really upset seeing the flea flicker on the first play. What most people didn’t notice is Moore was hurried on that play because it had a long setup. The reason he threw off his back foot is he had a defender in his face (surprise…from the right side of the line). Why in god’s name are you calling long setup trick plays when our biggest team weakness is the o-line?!
by ppalm on Nov 2, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Honestly....
WTF does it matter? Who cares how good he is? Or cool or anything? How does that help us win? Its not like he comes over for the BBQs, sooooo what does it matter? He is not an elite talent. BOTTOM LINE. The bar is now set at a higher level than it used to be. We want an ELITE QB. Moore is not that guy. He can be as cool as he wants, but I don’t know that guy and he is not helping us win, sooooo yeah really no need for me to sweat him.
I am an optimist. It does not seem too much use being anything else.
~Winston Churchill
OH!
"He is not an elite talent."
And NO one expects him to be. If you do, then you’re a fool and you’ve been absent to the Delhomme years since ‘03. Jake was not elite, but he could get it done at times. Thankfully, we have a quarterback at the same level as Jake Delhomme WHO IS SO MUCH YOUNGER. He is budding talent, and that is a wonderful thing to say about quarterbacks now a days. I want an ELITE QB, but I don’t expect one to happen until he has the protection in the pocket and the reliable hands of his receivers. It’s all budding, it’s not just Moore. This team is playing as much of a pre-season for next season as any losing game can be.
ok
Did I ever say that everything is all Moore’s fault? I am not saying any one guy is to blame(Fox) right now…
I was here through the Delhomme years, that’s the reason I want an ELITE QB. Delhomme is resposible for many holes in walls thoughout the Carolinas. I do not want that again. No thanks.
I was hoping that Moore could emerge as an ELITE QB. He gassed me up real nice last year. Big D helped with a sweet post that compared him with a few other QBs through their first 8 starts. I would be so happy if Moore turned out to be the next Brady.
Here we are though, and Moore is not that guy. I’m not dating the guy and I do not have a crush on him. So I really do not care that he is not the answer.
I am an optimist. It does not seem too much use being anything else.
~Winston Churchill
OH!
Moore is far from a budding talent. Jimmy Clausen is a budding talent. I have to agree with Steven…
I want an elite QB. Moore isn’t it. He’s a good, albeit inconsistent, QB, far from elite.
I want an elite QB. Thus far, Jimmy Clausen hasn’t proven to be that either. He’s a rookie that has played like a rookie.
I want an elite QB. I don’t care who it is, what their name is, or where they come from. I want an elite QB.
Overall Panthers Draft Grade: A
Yeah good luck with that,
There are less elite QB’s in the game than there are NFL teams. It’s arithmetic. There aren’t enough Mannings, Favres, etc for EVERY team to have one. he panthersbuilt their squad around "elite"running backs and you see how that is working out for us….
Dantt on Smith
I think it was the second drop by Smith, where he was crossing midfield and stumbled to the ground… I definitely think he hit something wrong in his left leg that gave a momentary shock, or something. He fell on his left side and did not land on his left leg, but rather let it slide in front of him.
The drops were bad, but I think his leg was bothering him. For a 1-5 team, for a team that has all been performing horribly, I think it’s only right that Smith get his bad game in.
They NEEDED to get Gettis involved though, and not on a running play that’s lateraled twice to get to him… maybe Moore wasn’t getting good looks to him (or to Smith), but that’s only because he knew how fast he had to get the ball out. Not that he DID get the ball out fast every time (sigh)… better play-calling, better protection, better decisions. it’ll all come in time (even if we have to wait till next season).
Checked the video again, and Gettis was being jammed by his CB at the line, and seldom got off the line without a big delay.
Both he and LaFell need to be more aggressive in their release from the LOS, when up against tight bump coverage. That was probably the difference in their production between this and the previous game, where the SF corners were playing 5-6 yds off the line.
I'm going thru some play by play withdrawal...so let me try to elicit your commentary on a couple of things I was curious about in Sunday's game.
Do you think the jamming at the line is what prevented us from executing some quick hitting short pass plays on 1st & 2nd down (like the slants that have been working) or would you say our coaches just weren’t calling for them? Third and longs killed us on Sunday.
Also let me try this one also, on Moore’s last int, did it look like to you that him and 89 were on different pages on what the pass route was? I thought there seemed to be some confusion there.
Human filter for rice pudding.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Let's get Randy Moss NOW!
Vikings just waived him. If he has any chance in the NFL for now pick him up and let him work with Clausen.
Steve Smith may get some mojo now.
LOL
That was fast. Him being waived I mean.
by The Duke Dude on Nov 1, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Randomly
Came to check the new comments and saw this….
Notice the ad? (sorry for the bad screen cap)
Minnesota
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Depends on what you mean by worst
Obviously the fall for Dallas was much further and harder. If you are judging by unfulfilled expectations, then definitely Dallas. But if you mean by talent, execution, etc. I don’t know. They’ve both been stinking it up.
by The Duke Dude on Nov 1, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Im tried of this..
I am tired of people saying that no QB can succeed in this system. That statement is false because Jake Delhomme yes Jake Delhomme succeeded in it and was a game manager QB in this system with his limited arm strength. Yes we all know Jake Collasped in the playoffs 2 years ago but before that Jake won us some games. The point is Jake was a decent QB and we won games with him being mediocre… Now if Jake can do it then Matt Moore should be able to do it… which he isn’t and he is clearly NOT the answer at QB.. So why not start clausen? I will give you one good damn reason why we should start Clausen over Moore NOW… Look Peyton Mannings 1998 Rookie season. The Colts were horrible that year and Peyton Started all year. He was not an All Pro or even statically good that year but he did gain the most important thing a QB can get which is expierence…. AT THIS POINT we NEED to start Clausen so he can get that in game expierence and learn. This season is now about over when it comes to winning and we have NOTHING to gain by starting Moore but alot to Gain by starting Clausen so he can get better… Like so many other QB’s before him… SO i hate when you guys blame the system for why Moore can’t succeed because we ran the same system last year and he had some success and don’t say well the running game isn’t helping because if other QB’s can do it then do it then he can to… All the excuses have ran out for Moore… Clausen may not be that great but hey.. At least lets give him the whole season to get some expirence and then we can evaluate him moving forward.
Interesting thoughts
A couple quick thoughts. Very few should be compared to Peyton Manning or his career. The dude will go down in history as one of the greatest football minds ever. Yes, he played his rookie year, didn’t play well, but turned out well. But he’s Peyton Manning. There are lots of other better examples, Ben Roth-lessgirls comes to mind. Just a personal sticking point.
As far as Moore vs Jake and the system. I wouldn’t confuse system with execution. I don’t see people saying much about the “system”. Other than really bad play calling. What folks have said, including me, is that given the current talent and execution, only a few QBs would be successful. What I remember being said was that folks were tired of game-managers and wanted a game-changer. As far as comparing Jake, we’ve played much better as a team in the years previous to this. I don’t recall seeing the Panthers look this bad. Sure, there were bad games, and guys had bad days. But this is a new level of suckness. My point is when Jake or some other guy had a bad day, the rest of the team or even a squad (mainly the defense) would pick up the slack. This year, no one is really picking up the slack and we’re playing poorly collectively. I’m not sure that you can compare individual performances of previous players in previous years to current players this year. I think (and this is the data analyst in me) to be able to compare, Jake would have to be taking snaps this season.
As far as starting Clausen, I agree with you. Let’s see what the kid can do. Then at least we’ll have some idea of what we’ve got.
by The Duke Dude on Nov 1, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand but...
Man I am not comparing him to peyton I am just using his season because it sucked and the fact that he was a rookie and he played it out which ultimately made him a better QB that is the underlining point I am trying to make. But we can all agree Clausen needs some experience moving forward
he is also a monster thug to. Wouldn’t have that crap on my team for anything.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Yeah, darn them thugs. We’re so much better than them, on our higher plane, demeaning other human beings because we’re perfect.
Overall Panthers Draft Grade: A
Oh come on. Just because I say the guy is a thug you have to pull that? Seriously? Where did I say anything about being perfect? If you can’t admit the guy has issues, then that is some strong form of denial.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Sure, the guy has issues. Has nothing to do with being a thug. The part that got me was ending with…
“Wouldn’t have that crap on my team for anything.”
Issues can be solved if someone cares enough to find the root of the problem. Character reformation is possible. Look at our own Smitty in his younger days, would you have had him on your team? Why can’t we say “yeah, he’s doing well but that guy has issues. Hopefully he’ll mature and move passed that stuff.”
I apologize for doing the same thing to you that you did to him (assuming to know ones character and labeling them without actually knowing who they are) but I wanted to see your reaction. You didn’t seem to like my judgement. Don’t you think he’d probably have a similar reaction as you did? I know I’ve made plenty of mistakes in the past but I wouldn’t want anyone judging me without knowing who I am. Lets give the guy a chance and see how he matures playing in the big league?
Overall Panthers Draft Grade: A
Tampa Bay did just that
And now they are reaping the benefits. They have taken on a few of these players… the one that hasn’t changed yet is Aqib Talib… he still gets picked up for things about once a season or a couple times in an offseason.
Blount is an elite talent that feel to the wayside due to a single incident, TB was just smart enough to do exactly what D-Ranged is talk about. Give the kid a chance to change.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
Re Blount: there are few players who wouldn't have done what he did...
The guy taunted him after a loss, and I don’t know if I could have restrained myself either.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
by BW Smith on Nov 2, 2010 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yep, I agree
And as far as I know, that one incident is the only blemish on his record he has. If someone knows otherwise, feel free to post it.
I’m not sure I could have held back that punch either.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
by Tater596 on Nov 2, 2010 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think he was in practice
and he punched a teammate, or something like that. But everyone gets angry during mini camp and training camp so I didn’t put much into it. The media made it seem more serious because it was him and he has the history with that first incident.
Besides that, he hasn’t done anything.
"The game of life is a lot like football. You have to tackle your problems, block your fears, and score your points when you get the opportunity." - Lewis Grizzard
He missed most of the voluntary workouts at Oregon,
along with failing to make his grades. i.e. his work ethic was awful. He was suspended before the punch for that very reason.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Heres something funny
Search “Cockiest QB” and see who comes up on most on the links ahhahah jimmy clausen
I see a few mentions of Clausen..
But the majority are “why Clausen will be better than Bradford.”
I can live with that :)
Overall Panthers Draft Grade: A
ONE MORE TIME!!!
I’m gonna say this one more time then I’ll shut up!
Where in the Hell is the “wildcat” formation that we’ve heard about?? Edwards can throw better, run better, and read defenses better than any QB we’ve got. Let the guy play at least a quarter, preferably a half, and see what happens. Who knows, it might work, sure as Hell can’t hurt.
I sure don’t think “Pickles” is the answer – think I see why he was drafted as low as he was, Moore either for that matter.
For gods sake lets do SOMETHING different.
Jim
What about Edwards?
Why do you think he was drafted in the 3rd round and not ahead of Clausen?
I sure don’t think "Pickles" is the answer – think I see why he was drafted as low as he was
If we are to apply this logic to Armanti Edwards then he’s less of an answer given he was considered a reach as a 3rd round WR, and would have been a 7th rounder as a QB alone (based solely on his QB grade).
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Are you trying to prove me wrong?
If Tom Brady is the cited example then it just supports my point.
To claim Clausen isn’t the answer because he fell all the way to the second round is ludicrous when you’re also advocating a 3rd round WR pick start at QB.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
All this said..
It still doesn’t make sense that we aren’t activating him to at least provide that wrinkle. I don’t see any reason why we couldn’t have some success out of that formation 5 or 6 plays a game. Anything we can do to generate some offense.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
Wildcat... absolutely, 100% agree
I stated a few weeks back that I wanted to see him run it no more than 5 times a game.
That being said, I just don’t think comparing him to Clausen or Brady is really applicable.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
“no less than 5 times a game” it should have read.
I need my coffee
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
yeah I gotcha re: 5 times a game
And no, the comparison to Clausen or Brady isn’t applicable at all. Totally different QB styles. Shaun_bass is trying to make a point about being underrated, and I do think that there are qualities about Armanti that are indeed underrated. But a direct comparison won’t work.
The thing that is most underrated about Armanti is his arm strength. If the coaches take the shackles off and let him attempt a deep ball out of the mountaineer formation, it could pay off big time. If he sees man coverage while rolling out to the left and we have say, Gettis, going deep on a Go or Post route, I feel that he could hit him with no problem. Even if the pass falls incomplete, just the display of arm strength and variety out of that formation is going to make it more dangerous. I feel right now DCs only see him as a threat to run out of it. If he throws a good deep ball out of it, you open up so much more… including not failing on the reverse to Gettis. lol.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
Here's the problem
First of all, if there are no lanes for the running backs why would there be any for Armanti? If the full time QB can’t get the ball to the WRs, why would Armanti? Throwing Armanti under center fixes neither of those problems, especially as they relate to the O-line.
Secondly, the moment Armanti steps on the to the field right now, you know it’s going to be a Wildcat play. He has to develop into a WR first before that formation ever reaches it’s full potential otherwise the defense will always know it’s a Wildcat play coming. It doesn’t matter if he passes it or runs with, it’s still a telegraphed play. This isn’t App state where he’s always under center and therefore you always have to be ready for it.
It's telegraphed regardless of who runs the wildcat...
When Ronnie Brown lines up under center in Miami, you know it’s the wildcat. When Josh Cribbs lines up under center in Cleveland, you know it’s the wildcat.
The trick is having three or four options for the wildcat QB to use to keep the defense on their toes, not hiding the fact that it’s the wildcat formation.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
You don't see a difference..?
Between a Wildcat option where Armanti is a legitimate WR threat and a Wildcat option where Armanti is only in for Wildcat plays?
No, I don't.
Because the wildcat formation calls for the receiver to line up under center immediately. They don’t put the QB under center and then suddenly switch positions. The defense knows when the wildcat is coming no matter who runs it. The thing that makes it so successful in Miami is that you don’t know if Brown’s gonna run it, hand it off to Ricky Williams, or throw it.
Armanti doesn’t have to be a legit WR threat to run the wildcat, because if he comes in and lines up at receiver, they won’t switch formations and move to the wildcat.
I would honestly like to see them do it, and let Armanti throw a deep bomb down field to Gettis for a TD, just so we can finally end the “Armanti doesn’t have an arm” argument here on CSR. :-)
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
by BW Smith on Nov 2, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, I do.
The difference is that the threat is always there if he can make it on the field as a WR.
Take a no-huddle offense for example. If you have a 3 WR set with Gettis, LaFell, and Armanti (thinking post-Smith era) and you are in a no huddle situation, you don’t have to sub out a player to run your Wildcat formation, potentially catching the defense with the wrong personnel on the field or simply catching them unprepared for the option.
The day we start running the wildcat out of a no huddle scheme
Is the day I will cry tears of joy to see such imagination.
But for now, you don’t see teams doing that, the wildcat is usually wholesale changes to personnel. Even in Miami’s case, at a minimum they have to sub in Williams for someone so they can get both him and Brown on the field together.
Besides, I don’t know if the defense would change personnel in response to the Wildcat that much. At best, we could hope for catching a guy out of position once in awhile, but i doubt they would have the wrong personnel on the field. Being able to motion Armanti in under center and having our QB split out wide like that would be a luxury, but its not necessary to make the play work. Maybe in a couple years we will indeed have that luxury, but for now a standard wildcat look would be a boost.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
My point exactly...
Even in Miami’s case, at a minimum they have to sub in Williams for someone so they can get both him and Brown on the field together.
You wouldn’t have to sub in Armanti if he becomes your slot WR. It could essentially become apart of your base package. But for that to happen, Armanti needs to develop.
But even if he's the slot receiver...
The wildcat doesn’t catch anyone off guard anymore. It did when Miami first used it because no one else did it, but now teams know how to defend it, regardless of when and how the formation is made.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Just because it's not a total shock formation...
Doesn’t mean there’s no reason to use it.
It would be nice to see it run properly. We have the weapons to do it. Armanti at QB, Moore, Gettis and Smitty at WR, Rosario at TE, and D-Will/J-Stew/Goodson at RB.
There are plenty of plays that could be executed with that personnel on the field.
It would be nice to be able to take advantage of Armanti’s and Goodson’s speed with an option sweep to the outside with both of them threats to run the ball. We could also use Smitty or Gettis in a reverse play, or we could throw it deep to either of them.
The problem is: our OC and HC don’t have the creative ability to call such plays, so we’re stuck with “Armanti runs it up the middle for 5 yards” every time.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
If Armanti can run it for 5 yards every time,
they should get him on the field!
But seriously, he should at least be active so if we need a ‘spark’ on offense we could use the wildcat once or twice and see how well it works.
"The game of life is a lot like football. You have to tackle your problems, block your fears, and score your points when you get the opportunity." - Lewis Grizzard
I think you're missing the point
If Armanti is the one “running the wildcat” he won’t be lined up at WR at any point during the play. His only chance to be a WR on the play is some sort of convoluted option pass where he hands off to someone else and then runs a route, at which point he better be covered, because even if you haven’t established yourself as a threat at WR you could certainly still take a pass to the house when you’re wide open like that.
It’s the same reason the QB gets covered when you run the wildcat. Yeah, they are lined up a WR, and are no real threat to catch the ball… but if you don’t cover them you unlock the option to have a backward pass to the QB and then have the QB chuck one downfield to one of the open receivers.
The only way to make the wildcat or mountaineer formation effective is to run it. If the only thing we do out of the formation is let Armanti keep the ball and run, it will never be effective. We need to establish each part of the formation as a real threat. It only takes a team getting burned once to make something a threat. I guarantee you that we would have man coverage on Gettis in this situation, the coaching staff just needs to stop being so conservative and let him throw it. Like I said, even if it fall incomplete, you have at least shown that you can do multiple things out of a formation instead of just the same thing time and time again.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
For gods sake lets do SOMETHING different.
We did do something different. This week we let Smitty cause the turnovers that lost us the game, and we let J-Stew be the guy who couldn’t move the ball on the ground to set up the play-action pass.
Seriously though — I feel your pain, I think we all do. I don’t think they will go to Armanti, but at this point I’m not opposed to anything anymore, because this team is clearly not going to win on a consistent basis in 2010. I would like to see the Wildcat formation though, it would be nice to see something creative on offense for a change.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
Do you guys know how simple the passing offense was at App State. it was “streak” “post” “Streak” “Get Open” and run when nobody is open… that is how simple it was… That is why Edwards is not a NFL QB his system plus the Division 2 Opponents is the reason why he isn’t considered a QB
I don’t think they will go to Armanti…
I’ll let you re-read that part, just in case you missed it the first time. I never said they should go to Armanti at QB permanently. It would be nice, however, to see them play a little wildcat.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
First of all. It isn't Division 2. And I'm tired of people incorrectly saying that.
It is FCS or Division I-AA. There is an actual division 2, and it is lower than the aforementioned FCS. There is also a division 3.
Also, I would like to know what qualifies you as an expert on the App State offense?
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
Armanti need to be active, and we need to run the mountaineer package for 5-6 plays a game.
We have the capability to have some imagination on offense. We drafted a guy for this exact purpose. We should utilize him right now because nothing else is really working and we need to do something, anything at all, to make the defenses a little more honest. If they want to put 8 or 9 in the box, Armanti has the speed to the edge to beat that for a few yards, but he also has the ability to throw on the run and complete a pass over the top. Nothing complicated, but something that DCs will need to account for.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
Ok you guys are making me pessimistic
Yeah, the game was bad. But, lets face it, our gameplan is successful if we have OL and WR and RB and QB who play talented. This is a simple TALENT based gameplan. It hinges on HOW we play. Our talent level is not where it needs to be for this gameplan to succeed and its plainly not working. Another thing, the way everyone was blowing up the panthers we deserved the lose.That was rediculous. It was only one game, if you thought our problems were solved through ONE game you were sadly mistaken. I dont think of any team is a bad team in the league anymore except the cowboys because the are overrated.This game is any given sunday! Yeah we should have won but it didnt happen. anyway if the panthers don’t have anyone to cheer them on, theyve got me. I’m NEVER giving up on my panthers! You guys sound like youve already given up on the season.Even you guys who are writing. I just shake my head. ANYTHING could happen so until then Im rooting for 10-6! Lets gooooooo Panthers!
Opponents defenses have no fear of our passing game… all you have to do is stack the box, double smith and man coverage anyone else and your good. That is why we need a QB that can adjust to that and drop a deep bomb to gettis or any other reciever and that will open up the running game and you will stop all that stacking the box. Know know the difference between when Jake Delhomme was QB and now……… He actually posed a threat to pass… thats why are running game was so dominant
I have no analysis. I'll just paraphrase Homer Simpson:
“Yeah, guys, our team sure did suck yesterday. They just plain sucked! I’ve seen teams suck before, but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked.”
we've been speculating on the degree of Fox's involvement in the offense lately
and perhaps Gross gives a little insight: (per Darin Gantt – Charlotte Observer.)
My hat’s off to (offensive coordinator Jeff) Davidson on that one. His tendency isn’t to open up the playbook. And Foxy OK’d it, too, which is not something that we normally do. I liked the call. But it was bad. I haven’t seen film. I was blocking. I don’t really know what happened. But a bad way to start." Left tackle Jordan Gross, on the game-opening flea-flicker that was intercepted
i could be making too much of it, but it looks as Gross is saying Davidson is a pretty conservative play caller as well as Fox having some degree of influence on the offensive game plan.
conservative OC + conservative HC setting parameters = most predictable offense in NFL
Rules and Regulations of the Game: 89, Bottom Line
that sounds about right
I am an optimist. It does not seem too much use being anything else.
~Winston Churchill
OH!
Armanti wasn't a 6th round pick... nor was he picked to play QB... nor is he currently a backup QB...
I’ve heard a lot of comparisons, but Brady to Edwards makes the least sense out of any of them.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I agree..
I refuse to say he couldn’t do it until he gets the chance and succeeds or fails but I’d have to immediately think of a scrambling QB, not someone like Tom Brady, even if their situations were in some way similar.
Overall Panthers Draft Grade: A
Tarvaris Jackson makes far, far more sense.
- Both scouted by Division one schools (Jackson played 2 years for Arkansas)
- Ultimately both attended 1-AA schools (or FCS for the pedantic)
- Late second round pick (Armanti was late third)
- Both had a similar pass/rush ratio
- Both completed passes in the mid 60% range their senior year
- Both had close TD/INT ratios (5/1 for Jackson, 3.33/1 for Edwards)
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
T-Jack was actually the exact player I had in mind with that comment but I figured I’d leave the in depth comparisons to you pros :) haha
Overall Panthers Draft Grade: A
Indeed
I think it’s a valid comparison, you’re talking about similar style QBs and similar situations. Honestly, I think Armanti has a better arm that Tarvaris, but that doesn’t make either one your ideal NFL QB. Obviously, Minnesota agrees if they are willing to march Favre out there on broken bones instead of handing it to Tarvaris for a game. Then again I’m not sure that was Childress’s decision at all. I think Favre has made him his bitch, for lack of better terms.
Comparing Armanti to Tom Brady is just crazy though. Nothing about them is similar other than they were both unheralded QB prospects entering the league.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
I think Tarvaris Jackson has gotten a raw deal
He seemed to be putting it all together at the end of 2008 but rather than give him an opportunity to continue the Vikings decided it would be better to forget about the Camaro they had the in driveway and try and get a classic Ferrari.
How would have people felt if the Panthers brought in Donovan McNabb this year and handed him the starting job and never give Matt Moore a chance to start? Same situation.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I would certainly feel like a doormat if I were him
Watching some old man out there being ineffective and getting killed because my coach won’t let me play.
Unofficial Agent for Armanti Edwards, WR #10, Carolina Panthers
Not only that...
but they traded for Sage Rosenfels in the offseason to try and take his job as the backup.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Too bad we couldn't have traded for T-Jack
I think he would have been a good fit for us. He’s a decent, if not good, QB with upside. He could have at least competed with Moore in camp for the starting job if nothing else.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
eh...
If we trade for anything at this point, I’d want the old pieces to our offensive line back. I know Bridges had his legal issues, but he always performed well, as did Jeff Hangartner, who I believe is now a starter on the Bills line (and the offense is not the Bills problem).
Hangartner was paid starter money. We didn't have the cap room to pay him
that as a backup.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
He was there for the picking
Rumor in the offseason was the price was a 5th round pick.
But, hindsight is 20/20… we all thought Moore would be lights out and Clausen was the future waiting in the wings a few months ago.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Yeah but no one saw that coming...
I mean he’s Brett Favre, but nobody thought he would be as good as he ended up being last year, especially when he was 74 years old at the time.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
I think the fact that he's now having the worst season of his career..
supports that. I mean, minus all of the peen pictures and stuff. If I’m Minnesota (whoever’s calling the shots, I don’t really know who that is at the moment), I give T-Jack his shot and I do it quickly.
Overall Panthers Draft Grade: A
Maybe Favre from last year...
But not this year’s shell of a QB that used to be Brett Favre.
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
don't care for Favre
I quit being Packer fan long back because it was always about Favre not the team. Great player but he clearly has an highly inflated sense of self (we now have good evidence for this).
But Wrangler are real, comfortable, jeans.....duuude.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
They're even more comfortable now....
"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." ~ David Foster Wallace
by BW Smith on Nov 3, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I did not see that live, but that is incredible!
He deserves it….and then some.
"If you ask Jets' CB Darrelle Revis, there is no one who is harder to cover one-on-one than Steve Smith. That has to mean something coming from last year's runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year."
by ERL on Nov 3, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I still think the games are interesting to watch.
Theyre still close enough to be either teams win for most of the game. I have accepted that we are just playing players to get them some practice this year, like a year long evaluation to see who they want to keep going into the lock out year. Gonna be interesting to see how the team changes next year.
I admire you.
For your ability to do this. Hopefully, I will get to the point that I can do the same.
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault. -Jack Tatum
Follow me on Twitter
Completely unrelated...
But Andre Johnson definitely earned some of my respect at the end of that game. He couldn’t hardly walk yet he was still on field playing for his team, despite nearly no chance of coming back.
Overall Panthers Draft Grade: A
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