Who else from the Panthers might make it to the 2010 Pro Bowl?
by r3 on Jan 25, 2010 11:32 PM EST
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PrintWith the Saints and Colts opening 14 roster spots on the Pro Bowl teams, we had the addition of Panthers' C Ryan Kalil to the NFC's Pro Bowl roster. Given the physical NFC championship game, several Vikings have already withdrawn and several more look likely to pull out of "the big game". So who else among the Panthers might be named to the squad? (And hey, if David Garrard gets a roster spot, anyone can make it.)
- Travelle Wharton - This is the one position where we've got a legitimate chance. Wharton has been a dominant blocker in both the running and passing games for the past two seasons at the LG position. His rare combination of mobility, size, intelligence and effort put him among the elite in the league at his position. Unfortunately for him, he was listed at LT on Pro Bowl ballots because that's where he played the last third of this season. And since he was drafted, and played, at the LT position out of college before converting, he's not as prevalent on the NFL radar screens as he deserves to be. On a positive note, there's a good chance that Vikings OG Steve Hutchinson may withdraw in the next day or two, and if the people who choose the reserves from this point forward have actually watched film, then they'll know who ought to fill that open spot.
- Chris Gamble - A very long shot at this point. Even with Charles Woodson and DRC out with injuries, replaced by Antoine Winfield who also has had to pull out due to injury, the roster seems a little more final now than it did this morning. Gamble's had his best season, finally living up to his "shutdown corner" contract and living down his "stone-hands" reputation for dropping interceptions. I'd put Gamble up against either of the two Cowboy CBs who are in as injury replacements, and I think he looks a lot better. Working against him, though, is the animosity he engendered in some circles around the league after his comments about Randy Moss. Things like "history" and "facts" and "the tape" prove him right, and Darrelle Revis's comments this past week only confirm what he'd said. But that might not be enough to get him in until he really starts taking over games and taking away receivers week-in and week-out in the way that Revis is doing now.
- Jon Beason - Barring injury, he's not going. With Vilma out, London Fletcher got his long-overdue Pro Bowl roster spot and he's not giving it up for anybody. Looking at this practically, Patrick Willis is going to be a Pro Bowl starter for the next decade, and Beason will compete for the backup position with whoever else has a good season. Make no mistake, Beason is the best MLB in the NFL not named Patrick Willis. But he's in a small market on a .500 team this year, and we all know that not playing in the NFC East means that the national media isn't going to pay nearly as much attention as they should. So this year is London Fletcher's year, and this is the last year there's no room for The Beast.
- Brad Hoover - This is really just a dream of mine, not something I ever expect to see. Hoov's been such a fantastic fullback for so long it's easy to forget how important he is to our offensive success until he goes down for a game or two and our offense becomes lifeless. He's a True Fullback. He's not a short-yardage back in the mold of Mike Alstott or Le'Ron McClain. He's an occasional dump-off option, but not a weapon in the screen game the way that Leonard Weaver is. So if he gets in, it'll be on the strength of a long career and a series of thousand-yard rushers, the way that Lorenzo Neal did. Will it happen before her retires? I doubt it. But there's no one else who more richly deserves to go if Weaver pulls out than our own beloved Hoov.
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I love the respect you gave Hoover.
Next year may well be his last — I hope he gets the recognition he deserves, and they vote him in.
No fumbles, no penalties, seldom a missed block, and only D-Will and J-Stew really know how many of their yards are attributable to the holes he opened for them to get to and beyond the second level.
It’s customary (or at least common practice) to honor a career body of work by a blocking fullback by voting him the honor of a Pro Bowl berth. Of course Mughelli in Atlanta, Weaver in Philly and Anderson in Dallas are all good at their craft, too, but if you’re a Panther fan, you gotta love what Hoov has done.
Thanks, and I agree completely.
And since you’re talking fullbacks, let’s talk fullbacks! You mention Ovie Mughelli in Atlanta, who I think is fantastic and would be my vote if we had to replace The Hoov. The guy’s a beast! Let’s see what it takes to steal him away from a division rival. (Aside: Mughelli was recently outed against his will by a former lover… crappy thing to do to someone in the NFL these days.)
But the only FB I’ve seen the past two or three years who is a more tenacious blocker than Hoov is Lousaka Polite in Miami. That guy’s a big-time impressive blocker, maybe even better than Lorenzo Neal was for so long. I mean, that guy’s just the best there is at what he does.
by r3 on Jan 26, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
What Darell Revis comments?
I must have missed that..
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
T.O. and Randy Moss
Darrell Revis was asked by Deion Sanders to describe certain receivers with just one word. He his word for both T.O. and Moss was SLOUCH. Our own Steve Smith and Chad Ochocinco were both called competitors. Andre Johnson was called a Beast!
Revis better watch himself.
I know he’s the toast of the town right now, but regardless you need to respect the guys who came before you… even if it’s T.O or Randy Moss.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
agree
i mean, slouches who go for 1,000 catches and 100 TDs are the kind fo slouches most teams need. another thing you have to look at is consistency. how many years will revis play at the same level. was this year a fluke? owens and moss have been dominating defenses since the 90s.
by usana_gaines on Jan 26, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
Revis had some very good games, but...
I think he drank his own KoolAid before the Colts game. Not exactly like he dominated Reggie Wayne. He looked very reactionary on several plays his way, and merely tagged along.
No, he played really well, just like he always does.
Wayne caught 3 passes for 55 yards and no scores. Granted, Revis was only on him about 60-70% of the time, but I don’t recall Wayne doing anything special. A couple of in-breaking routes where he was tackled immediately by Revis. I’m tellin’ you, Revis is elite, can’t take that away from him.
Keep in mind, he wasn’t matched up on Reggie Wayne as often as he normally might be. He successfully defended Dallas Clark a few times as well as matching up against Collie and Garçon once or twice.
One thing Indy’s gotten comfortable with is the idea that one of their receivers will always come open. Which is fine, since Peyton’s always had Harrison and then Wayne, legit #1s who demand double-teams and then beat them. But because they have had that luxury for so long, you almost never see their X or Z receivers go in motion to dictate more favorable matchups. But you began to see that against Revis. They motioned the X receiver inside of the slot receiver a couple of times, the defense switched and Revis was covering the guy in the slot. I’m not a big Colts watcher, but that’s the first time I can remember seeing them do that.
by r3 on Jan 26, 2010 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
I'd agree..
I wasn’t thoroughly impressed with his play against the Colts.
According to ProFootballFocus.com, he only had 2 tackles on the day. Reggie Wayne was targeted 4 times while Revis was covering him, caught 2 for 38 yards. He covered Collie once, which was a completion for 11 yards. He allowed a QB rating of 92.9 in his area. He led the defense with a -0.8 (below average) rating. Not terrible but not exactly Mr. Shutdown, giving up completions on 60% of his targets.
Seems like Lowery got picked on for most of the day, targeted 14 times and gave up 9 for 114yds and a touchdown.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
An average performance against Manning and those receivers is a plenty fine day.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 27, 2010 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
Manning is supposedly one of the best QB’s in the league, right? Revis is supposedly one of the best CB’s in the league, right? So why do we offer different standards? To give ourselves enough reason to sway our own opinion?
When the best meets the best, it’s a level playing field. Revis didn’t live up to the hype; Manning wins..
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
How did he not live up to the hype?
He stopped the top receiver the Colts had. No corner can cover two receivers at once.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 27, 2010 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
He didn't stop much of anyone he covered.
Unless by “stop” you mean Manning throwing in the other direction. That’s a what if, though. What is is Revis giving up a completion % of 60% to the receivers he covered.
He wasn’t burned by any means but he didn’t do much in the way of “stopping” anyone either. I won’t dispute that Revis is damn good at what he does but playing against Manning didn’t produce one of his better days.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
Really?
Wayne was almost completely shut down. It was Garcon and Collie who were doing the damage.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 27, 2010 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
Even though Revis dominated him...
He still said that Smith (along with Johnson) was the toughest receiver he faced all year.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 27, 2010 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
And hey, if David Garrard gets a roster spot, anyone can make it.
I’m thinking more about Vince Young…. it’s obscene that Vince Young is going to be a ProBowl QB!
Nice post r3, I would love Hoov to get a ProBowl nod once… that would be awesome
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Garrard is no better.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 27, 2010 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
Off topic from what you two are discussing..
But it is funny how names can tend to over-come statistics, over time.
I personally think mediocre when I hear the name “David Garrard”. However, PFF.com has him ranked a top 10 QB, overall.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
PFF is some made-up BS.
I could start a site tomorrow that created a formula that had Jay Cutler, Jake Delhomme, and JaMarcus Russell as the best QBs in the league, but that wouldn’t make it right.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 27, 2010 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
You're absolutely right, it's made up BS...
Because it happens to not coincide with the point you’re trying to prove.
When you do create that formula, feel free to release it to all of us so that we can judge it the same way we have PFF’s formula. Thus far, I haven’t heard of too many people complaining it’s “BS” (except for you).
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
I do take what they say with a grain of salt
I don’t treat them as all knowing. For instance, they think Beason is overrated. But they like Hoover. So they do know what they are talking about, but some salt is needed.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Jan 29, 2010 2:29 AM EST up reply actions
That may need some clarification
I don’t think they’ve “said” anything about a player; rather, their numerical rankings within the player’s peer group (which come as a result of their play-by-play review of every snap each player takes, and its individual grade on that play) indicate how effective he is — and they admit this is subjective. But any ranking of a player is subjective. They just happen to go to greater lengths to try to quantify it, rather than relying on NFL Today highight films.
As for Hoover, they rank him #13 of 29 FBs reviewed, which isn’t high, IMO. This is largely the result of low grades on his running and pass blocking — where he grades high is on run blocking, which is accurate.
On Beason, they’ve ranked him # 20 among 54 ILBs. His overall grade is brought down by a negative number in pass rushing skills (but then his job description within our scheme doesn’t call for him to blitz much, like some others) — as a result of that, as you’ll see from the link below, he loses 12 whole points to Lawrence Timmons of the Steelers, who was ranked #7 in the ILB group. But aside from that skill subset, Beason’s overall grade was just 6.8 points under Timmons, so in all other ways combined, JB was better by 5.2 points.
One of the reason I like the site (and I hardly call it BS — who else on the web gives you free access to the hundreds of man-hours they put in to quantify each and every play, each and every player, each and every game??) is that if you want to take the time, you can see the stats within the stats, that make up the overall “grade”. For example, who knows that Beason had 4 more solo tackles than Patrick Willis (121 to 117), yet missed tackles 11 times to Willis’ 4? Or that Willis surrendered 509 YAC on passes to his man, compared to Beason’s 193?
They supply the raw data behind the rankings, so, if you want, you can make your own conclusions about how a player produces.
Precisely that
That’s the real value of the site. Where else can you find QB rating while throwing to them. :D
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Jan 29, 2010 6:35 AM EST up reply actions
And QB ratings to different zones of the field.
I did some thinking about it last night. Somebody in their small group of dedicated staff sits and evaluates each and every play from each game, by each player, even OLmen, who are rarely graded anywhere else, except for NFL coaching staff rooms.
As I understand it (and they explain their grading system in detail on their site) they look for a player who has an impact on that play. If the play’s away from him, or he’s not directly effected by it, he’s get a neutral 0. If he misses a block, drops a pass, throws a pick, fumbles, anything negative, it could be anywhere from a -1/2 to a -2. And conversely a positive impact on a play would be graded +1/2 up to a +2.
Now that’s all good, but if the most a single play can gain a player in his grading rank is a 2, there could be a wide variation of how that +2 really impacted the outcome of the game — e.g., if LB Mughelli of the Falcons makes a good block that helps Turner through the line, and he gains 6 yards before being brought down by the LB, Mughelli would get a +2. But if Brad Hoover pancakes the LB 6 yards deep, clearing a wide hole for D-Will to break a 50yd TD, without being touched (it’s happened, more than once) Hoov only gets the same +2. So when all the snaps a player takes are added up, all the _0-’s, the +s and the -s, he gets an overall + or -, cumulative. Every play counts the same as another 1/645 of his total, if he plays 645 snaps.
What I’m saying is that the overall ranking they come up with is NOT subjective, but it can be somewhat misleading, too - it rewards consistent play, and not dramatic yet inconsistent play. Another way of saying it is if D-Will gets tackled for a 2 yard loss, then breaks off a 42 yd TD, he’d be -0 (-2, then +2) I’d take him over somebody who gained 4 yards twice, for a couple of +1s.
Gotta dig beneath the data. But I love the data’s there to dig from.
Vince Young?
You’ve got to be freaking kidding me? The guy has one decent season, make that half-season and he’s going to the Pro Bowl. Could they make the game even more of a joke?
By letting the SB players back out it seems this is all a plot to get more players their PB contract bonuses!
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
I’d love someone to explain to me how Vince Young (1,879 yds, 10 TD, 7 INT) and David Garrard (3,597 yds, 15 TD, 10 INT) made the Pro Bowl over:
- Ben Roethlisberger: 4,328 yds, 26 TD, 12 INT
- Kyle Orton: 3,802 yds, 21 TD, 12 INT
- Joe Flacco: 3,613 yds, 21 TD, 12 INT
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Its all about expectations.
Vince Young and David Garrard exceeded them.
Ben Roethlisberger, Kyle Orton and Joe Flacco merely met them.
by GoodOl'NorthState on Jan 26, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
By that definition
Shouldn’t Mark Sanchez make the probowl?
I was always taught the ProBowl was supposed to be the best players in the NFC playing the best players in the AFC, not a game to showcase guys we thought were terrible and turned out to be mediocre.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Jan 26, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
I agree on your basic definition on what a pro bowl should be
I also agree that the BEST players were not chosen.
I’m just saying that, especially in the case of VY, sometimes what gets players in are the headlines they are associated with, rather than the numbers they put up.
It’s not right, its just how it happens. Just like how Beason put up numbers that were tops in the NFL, and he is not going.
by GoodOl'NorthState on Jan 26, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
I would also argue that Kyle Orton exceeded all expectations of him
How many people thought he was going to have a better season than Jay Cutler?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Really?
People expected that out of Flacco? Nobody I know, and I know a lot of Ravens fans.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 27, 2010 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
Big Ben was certainly deserving over Young and Gerrard
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Perhaps he did… I’m not 100% sure, maybe Roethlisberger, Flacco and Orton all bailed… but I can’t see that being the case for either Kyle Orton or Joe Flacco.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Nope. Big Ben didn't make it.
Peyton made it and went to the Super Bowl. Rivers and Brady made it and backed out due to injury and haughtiness, respectively. For all we know, Big Ben was contacted and declined. But I think the more deserving Orton and Flacco would have happily accepted, since being a Pro Bowl QB is not only a great honor but also great when it comes time to bargain a new contract.
by r3 on Jan 26, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
Well.... I dunno...
I don’t think VY sells tickets. At least not outside of the state of Texas.
Of course, I know for a fact that Kyle Orton doesn’t sell tickets anywhere. Flacco could sell out a stadium in Delaware, but I don’t know if they have any stadiums in Delaware. So maybe you’re right.
by r3 on Jan 26, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
They love Flacco in Maryland...
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 27, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
Completely agree..
Isn’t that what the entire reason for moving it forward to this weekend was anyways? To generate more sales with more publicity while on-and-off football fans are still fresh off the season.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
+1
Check out the Pro Bowl half time show where they’re going to have a full scale circus running on the field while Miley Cyrus performs whatever song it is that made her name relevant for a few years.
I don’t believe they have yet figured out how they’re going to clean up all of the elephant doo before the game resumes though.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
Now there's a specialized occupation...
…dumbo dung bag fitter.
LOL at Rivers' "injury."
God knows I have “sore knees” every now and then too.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Jan 27, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
Do you have a reconstructed ACL though?
I’ve been through an MCL tear in my left knee from Rugby, and I’ll tell you that ‘knee soreness’ is no joke.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Especially after you just finished the season
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Jan 29, 2010 2:30 AM EST up reply actions
He and his wife just had had a baby too.
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Feb 1, 2010 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
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