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The Panthers have the 3rd WORST defense in the NFL



I was reading the paper this morning and when I was looking at the standings, I realized that we have given up more points, 66, than ALL but two teams in the league.  The worst team, Detroit, has given up 72 points while the next team is Tampa Bay, with 67 points.  We have given up 9 TD's tied for worst, with the Lions.  Now we lose yet another DT for the season.  More stats after the jump. 

Star-divide

NFL rankings

168 rush yards/game - tied for 30th

4.9 rush yards/att - 26th

19 first downs allowed - 31st

5 pass TD allowed - tied for 31st  (This stat is a bit worrisome, Meeks came from Indy where they gave up an NFL record 6 pass TD ALL YEAR last year)

67.9 opponent comp % - 29th

9 TD's allowed - 31st

 

Here are some good stats:

319 yards/game - 15th

5.0 yards/play - 12th

151 pass yards/game - 3rd  (This is deceiving b/c when a team can run at 4.9 yds/clip, why pass?)

 

That's about all of the "good" stats I could find.  Now I know the total points and points/game is augmented by all the turnovers against the Eagles.  However, a defense should still keep opponents out of the endzone more.  This is even more evident when looking at only 1 FG given up. 

 

In the off-season, I was a Pep supporter, and I still am.  However, I am very disappointed in the front office for franchising him.  We could have gotten several quality or even Pro Bowl level type players with the 18 mill wrapped up in Pep.  There were guys available like DE Greg Ellis, DE Jason Taylor, DE Richard Seymour, DE Antonio Smith, DE/DT Chris Canty, DT Rocky Bernhard, DT Tank Johnson, DT Shaun Cody, DT Jovan Haye, etc. 

 

What are your thoughts?

Poll
Is the Carolina Panther defense as bad as the stats say?
Yes
34 votes
No
32 votes

66 votes | Poll has closed

The content of these posts are those of the person/idiot making the post only

0 recs  |  Comment 39 comments |

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Look at it this way:

After two games, are you dropping LaDanian Tomlinson for Fred Jackson or Mike Bell? No. Because two games are not enough data to quantify a player or a team’s ability.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Sep 22, 2009 12:14 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree

I am going with what we have

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Sep 22, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

No doubt we have to stick with what we got

but some defensive wrinkles would be nice.

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Sep 22, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, but Fred Jackson & Mario Manningham sure gave me a nice fantasy boost last weekend.

The only thing is, this downhill spiral started last year, hit a low against Arizona, sprawled over the pre-season, then came to see us again against the Eagles. I’m not too worried about it, though, the Panthers always bounce back, and the Atlanta game wasn’t terrible. If we can improve by the same margin this week as last, a victory may not be too far out of sight.

I’m still waiting on DeAngelo to come through on some decent fantasy points.

by D-Ranged1 on Sep 23, 2009 7:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

I have him on my team

He’s been consistent for me, a TD in each game, decent yardage, the receiving yards have been a surprise though.

BTW I’m not in this league, just to clear that up. : )

by Flowing Willow on Sep 24, 2009 3:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

the biggest reason

that your yards allowed per game is so low is because of the special teams allowing opposing offenses to play on such a short field.

Though I agree, two games doesn’t really say much and they were two of the more difficult games on your schedule this season. Those numbers should improve significantly as the season progresses.

know what you believe in and why you believe in it

by MentallyMIA on Sep 22, 2009 1:25 AM EDT reply actions  

Good points MIA

If only I was as optimistic as you!

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Sep 22, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, we are as bad as the stats say right now.

Does that mean we can’t improve? Absolutely not.

So many of our defensive woes come from the complete and utter lack of a pass rush. More and more I’m thinking that Ron Meeks’ defense is a viable one, but ineffective with our current personelle.

I am a big advocate of either developing gameplans around what you have (rather than what you wish you had). In this defense speedy players are flourishing, while other defenders are having mediocre games (see Thomas Davis vs. Jon Beason). If we were going to move to a Tampa 2, then it was Meeks’ responsibility to ensure he had the players on roster who could follow through with him gameplan. Right now, there’s alot of ‘flying to the ball’ and not alot of finishing plays.

I am remaining optimistic, it’s still only week two… maybe the defense are still getting a handle on the system. However, the stat that worries me the most is the 67.9% CMP by opposing QBs. This is showing me that QBs and WRs are able to pick apart the seams in our cover 2 and exploiting it. If our DBs are too slow to effectively cover their zone, then we need to make adjustments. If Meeks had a dedicated player on Tony Gonzalez on Sunday then I think we get a W in that game, there were far to many easy 3rd down conversions to Gonzalez.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Sep 22, 2009 9:03 AM EDT reply actions  

"I am a big advocate of either developing gameplans around what you have (rather than what you wish you had)."

Amen! +100,000,000

That is coaching! Yet another problem with our team the past two games.

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Sep 22, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Meeks doesn’t have the speed on his defense yet to facilitate the style he wants to use.

After looking over the team he had in Indianapolis in 2006 (Superbowl) they had a dynamite secondary and a speedy d-line, but horrible linebackers. Even in 2006 they were the 21st defense in the league and allowed a league leading 47% 3rd down conversions.

Robert Mathis had 12.5 sacks, Dwight Freeney had 5.5 sacks, Raheem Brock had 47 tackles and 3 sacks, Anthony McFarland had 33 tackles and 2.5 sacks. That is an amazing amount of production from the D-line… and if people made it through the line then Cato June was 5th in the league in tackles and was able to make plays.

When looking at the D-line and LBs:
- Thomas Davis is our Cato June
- Peppers should be our Mathis, but he is only on pace for 8 sacks.
- Brayton should be our Freeney, but he has not recorded a sack.
- We are getting almost zero production from Hayden/Leonard and Lewis.

As for the DBs… in 2006 Meeks had:
- 11 team interceptions
- 294 team tackles (CB Nick Harper had 75, FS Marlin Jackson had 82)
- 37 passes defended (lowest in NFL)

Here, we can see that Meeks relied on DBs who could tackle over those who could play the ball in the air. Our DB’s are all poor tacklers, but play the ball well in the air (normally).

What does this all mean? Basically, Meeks’ system can be effective with the right personelle, but we are going to be struggling for several years until he can get ‘his guys’ and there is no guarantee he’ll last that long.

If Jacksonville’s season tanks again and Del Rio is fired, you better believe we’ll replace Meeks with Del Rio faster than you can say John Fox.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Sep 22, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

It'll be a toss-up...

The pundits will champion keeping him because the disappointing season can probably be chalked up once again to injuries (i.e., Kemo, etc.). There will be a call to give them “just one more season” to get everyone properly acclimated to Ron Meeks’ system. And so on.

Meanwhile, the detractors will make noise about “never having back-to-back winning seasons”…and that Fox and Hurney were already given their chance last year only to have everything fall apart against Arizona. The Peppers franchise tag situation will raise its ugly head again. And, if the fan base gets stirred up enough about it, I think Richardson might very well change coaches “to go a different direction” moreso than because John Fox is a bad coach. He isn’t. But sometimes owners have to shake things up among the PLAYERS by starting over with a different coaching staff.

That’s because, on paper, it seems easier to replace the coaches than the players. I’ve always thought it’s better to stick with the coaches, though, and give them time to develop the right mix of players. That’s why holding onto to Cowher for so long paid off for the Steelers, in my opinion. And that’s basically the guy everyone would want to have in place of Fox if he does get fired. I find that ironic.

But that’s just my two-cents,
—Neil

by NSpicer on Sep 22, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would hope Fox sticks around.. Adjusting to this defense is causing enough trouble, but changing coaches would be one hell of a season… or few…

True, it’s going to be a long year for us Panther fans, from the looks of it. True, history predicts the Panthers as having a losing season. Not everyone’s going to be happy with our situation until we win a SB, I guess that’s just the way it is for every team.

I wish we received half the physicality Singletary is dishing out over there in San Fran. Sandbag or two anyone?

And not to go off topic, but speaking of Jacksonville, has anyone else heard the rumors of a possible relocation due to their current issues?

by D-Ranged1 on Sep 23, 2009 8:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

One of the rumors...

is the Jags might be the team that gets relocated to London. But that will be a few years if in fact they are the ones.

by Scrantsj on Sep 23, 2009 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Jacksonville was the leading team to go to LA for years.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Sep 23, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was gonna say that LA would come before London

I do not have any background on this, it is purely my opinion.

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Sep 23, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

It would seem that way...

but there is simply no room for a stadium they can find and the financial risk is too large.

Southern Cal only cares about the Trojans, and NFL franchise would always play second fiddle.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Sep 24, 2009 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

I doubt that's true.

If a decent team showed up, they’d more than assuredly get into them. LA likes winners, period. And the market supports building one to an incredible degree. Look at the amount of money made by the Lakers, Angels, and Dodgers.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Sep 24, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are numerous fan polls from California that support this though...

LA couldn’t support the Raiders or Rams which is why they moved in the first place.

While they do support winners, alot of negative information regarding the viability of Los Angeles as an NFL city came out when it was rumored Ziggy Wilf was planning to move the Vikings a few years ago.

It’s like the Bobcats in Charlotte getting a lukewarm reaction. Here in NC the Panthers and college basketball own the collective sports hearts of citizens. In Los Angeles that distinction is split between the Dodgers, Lakers and Trojans.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Sep 24, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Bobcats get a lukewarm reaction because they're awful.

Nobody wants to watch a 30-win team.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Sep 25, 2009 5:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Are you suggesting Beason isn't speedy?

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Sep 22, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, not at all.

But Cato June was an OLB, as is Thomas Davis.

A cover two typically utilizes the MLB to drop back to around where the SS and FS are at the snap to cover the middle in pass coverage. This effectively takes them out of being effective run stoppers unless the run is directly up the middle.

The OLB’s play their zone slightly to the right and left, but don’t drop back nearly as far making it easier for them to close in on the run.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Sep 22, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

No they are not as bad as the stats suggest

Special teams & the offensive turnovers account for half of those points. Its not like the defense is going out there laying an egg everytime, they usual have to come on the field after a blotched offensive play or a special teams breakdown, to clean up the slack.

With a new defensive coordinator, new schemes, new verbage, & a slew of injuries, the defense should be given some slack, but no, the rabid fans of Carolina have to look for someone to blame.

The offense has ALL the same starters from last year, the same coordinator, & the same plays, but they never get any criticism. Maybe the offense needs to start clicking & putting points on the board, instead of 3 & outs & int’s all the time. Theres no reason why the offense shouldn’t be at full speed now. ITS THE SAME STARTERS FROM A TEAM THAT WENT 12-4!! Yet they aren’t putting up points & are not controlling the ball. What does that tell you?

"it's a bad day to have a bad day"

by D.W.G. on Sep 22, 2009 10:47 AM EDT reply actions  

No, no... it's not the defense's fault.

Miami forced Atlanta to punt 4 times in week one, they lost by 12
Carolina forced Atlanta to punt 2 times in week two, they lost by 8

So… Carolina’s offense got us closer to Atlanta’s score than Miami’s did, yet Miami’s defense was able to stop them more and make them punt more often.

Carolina are 27th in points scored (18th if you take a mulligan on week one)
Carolina are 30th in points allowerd (27th if you take a mulligan on week two)

The defense if worse than the offense statistically… nothing more, nothing less. The defense can and will improve, but to blame their wet paper defense (particularily on third down) as a failing of the offense if obscene in my book.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Sep 22, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Let me add to your point, James...

DWG’s assessment is somewhat correct when you look at the Philadelphia game. The defense only gave up 17 points in that debacle. The offense and special teams spotted them more points and yardage while our defense wasn’t even on the field. That’s a point I made after the Eagles game to say the loss could be laid on special teams, the offense, and O-line, specifically…rather than the defense.

But…when we DO have that defense on the field for the majority of the game (i.e., like they were against Atlanta), we can see they’ve still got the same problems we saw throughout the preseason. They’re just not able to stop good running teams. Even though the Falcons didn’t NEED to give Michael Turner a lot of touches, he still managed 4.0 yards per carry. That’s not getting it done in the NFL. Meanwhile, our secondary continues to play soft zone coverage where they can’t seem to find the receiver who wanders into their zone in time to prevent them from catching the ball (or getting open in the first place). And, what continues to be the primary issue is that there’s no pressure on the QB to hurry his throw and help them out.

To me, a defense is at its BEST when it’s disruptive to what the opposing offense wants to do. When’s the last time you can say our guys did that? I think it’s been awhile. That’s because we have no pass rush. We don’t blitz very often to generate one. And, even when we do on obvious passing downs, our opponents are able to keep maximum protection to give their quick-release QBs enough time to hit a receiver where our DBs are playing more than 5 yards off them (and sometimes as much as 10 yards!). Instead, we rely on our 4 DLs to generate pressure. But none of them do. So, it doesn’t matter if we keep 7 back in coverage. The QB has all day to find an open receiver…or slip past our pass-rushers and run upfield for a 1st down.

THAT’S the core of our defensive problems. But now we also have issues in our run defense with the loss of Kemo and no sustainable DT to replace him. We also seem to have serious tackling issues up the middle with LBs and the safeties trying to play pinball by shouldering into guys rather than wrapping them up. It does us no good if guys fly to the ball, only to whiff or bounce off when they get there.

Lastly, I think our defense hinders our offense. That’s right. The defense (and our special teams) shackles our offense. How? Because they give up points. They them up in bunches. Atlanta scored pretty easily against us…and certainly whenever they had to. Special teams just gives away points as well. The Eagle’s punt return absolutely sank us. And the bottom line is that our offense winds up playing from behind. That takes us out of our strongsuit (i.e., running the ball), because we have to eke out extra possessions by turning to our passing game for quicker scores and to conserve the clock. That plays to the opposing defense everytime. They no longer have to honor the run. They can shut down our WRs and challenge Delhomme to thread the ball through coverage and risk the turnover. And, as soon as he throws a pick or fumbles because the pass-rushers are in his face again, we blame him for the loss? I just don’t get it. It’s not one guy’s performance that leads us into those situations. The core problem with this team is the defense that gets us into those situations in the first place.

But that’s just my two-cents,
—Neil

by NSpicer on Sep 22, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was the first to say that the defense played decently against Philly...

But Phildephia’s offense was severely lacking that game. I think we get the most true assesment of our defense when looking at Atlanta because they put up similar numbers against Miami and their personelle remainded the same from week one to week two.

Lets face it, both the offense and the defense are in the 20’s in all major rankings. If we are going to return to 12-4 form then both phases need to improve. The offense were godawful week one, no doubt… I just find it hard to pin Sunday’s loss on the offense and them ‘not scoring enough’ as D.W.G claims.

20 pts were enough to win 6 of our 12 games last season (and tying another one). It should be enough this year.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Sep 22, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought the defense gave up 24 points vs Philly?

There was the fumble recovered for a TD and the punt return, aided by a clip. Did I miss one?

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Sep 23, 2009 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

You're right...

…for some reason I mentally assigned one of those TDs (the last one) as being more attributable to the offense turning it over on the 10-yard line than the defense not holding them. The Eagles took three plays after that INT and converted the TD. Whereas earlier in the game, in a similar situation (i.e., where the offense turned it over and the Eagles had it around the 20-yard line), the defense held them to a FG. But that last one, they had to already be worn down. I don’t put that TD on them as much as the offense leaving them on the field too long and giving Philly the ball way inside the redzone. But, bottom line, yes…the defense gave up 24 points, much as it pains me to go back and analyze it all over again. Yuck.

—Neil

by NSpicer on Sep 23, 2009 7:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

PR is on ST; sack/fumble/TD is on the Offense (turnover)

Neither should count against the D — they weren’t on the field.

Our D cost us the second game, not the first.

by bigdavis on Sep 23, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

I want to believe that...

…but you know, it doesn’t seem like our defense played as much against the Eagles as they did against the Falcons. The time of possession probably indicates otherwise. And I’m not going back to check the game log or anything. Just the impression you came away with from the Philly contest was that the other phases of the game (i.e., offense and special teams) blew up so badly that it made the defense look much better than that last preseason debacle against Pittsburgh. When, in reality, it just masked their problems…which were on full display again against Atlanta.

Still, as a TEAM, we kept it close. We only lost 28-20. We had a chance to tie at the end. And the defense did manage to make a stand on Atlanta’s last two possessions. So, they have to build off that and prepare better for Dallas now.

by NSpicer on Sep 24, 2009 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

INTs all the time?

What are you even talking about? We just went through a game where we had one. One that came while the QB was under duress and needed to force a throw on fourth down.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Sep 22, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let me be a little bit of an optimist here

The 168 yard/game rushing isn’t 30th, it’s actually a tie for 27th with the Giants. Yes, that’s right, The Freaking NY Giants. The same Giants that supposedly have a great defense.

The First downs allowed is actually 40 – 19 rush, 19 pass, and 2 penalty. This puts us in 20th place. The 31st (now 30th as Indy just dropped below us) that the OP was referring to was the 19 rush first downs. The Panthers are actually 6th in passing first downs. But I agree with his comment about why pass when you can run.
  
The point of this post is: It’s too early to be worried. Yes, there are concerns especially because of the DT situation. If we are still this low after week 5 and haven’t shown any improvement, then by all means start worrying.

Oh, and by the way, Marion Barber might not be playing Monday night. That should help a little. Jones and Choice can be dangerous though and shouldn’t be taken lightly.

by Scrantsj on Sep 22, 2009 3:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Latest Barber updates have him as day-to-day.

Either way, though, they’ve got quite the stable of backs there in big d.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Sep 23, 2009 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

we dont have the third worst defense in the NFL

we have the 3rd most work to do on defense in the NFL

by carolinabrave89 on Sep 22, 2009 4:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Toche

Is that how it’s spelled?

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Sep 23, 2009 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Touché, specifically.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Sep 23, 2009 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

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