Take em or Leave em?
by southtunnel on Jul 9, 2009 10:02 PM EDT
48 comments
On the radio when talking about individual players, I always hear stuff like "He's a likable guy" or "He's a fan favorite". They are referring to players that are in sharp contrast to guys like Julius Peppers or Jake Delhomme. This got me wondering who are the most and least liked Panther players... by fans of course, since non-fans tend to automatically dislike the players that are the biggest threat to their team. Here is a "likable" ordered list of a handful of current, more common Panther names... not me personally, but what I believe is the general perception among Panther nation. How would yours differ?
The Take Ems'
1. Deangelo Williams
Big Smile + Big numbers put this guy as possibly the most liked Panther. Even though his potential replacement was taken in last years draft, Deangelo embraced him, never complained and swore very convincingly that it didn't bother him. He topped this great attitude by having the best single season of any RB in Panther history.
A household name... Even my Grandma knows the name Moose. He's been with the team through thick and thin, and when he left it became very evident that he would not be easily replaced.
3. Steve Smith
I wanted to put Smitty first being that he is not only the best player in Panther history, but also the most fun to watch. He has shown the nation that you don't have to be the tallest or the fastest to be the best. You just have to want it the most and never quit. I dropped him however due to his attitude and sometimes violent actions that rub people the wrong way, and sometimes leave him apologizing to fans.
4. Jon Beason
A natural leader combined with great talent. Being that he is already one of the best LBs in the NFL, he might be higher on the list when it's all said and done.
5. Jordan Gross
Even non-Panther fans like Gross because they know it's not easy to find a franchise, pro-bowl Offensive Tackle. Plus he is featured on local Fox news as an American Idol analyst, so he has to be likable... right?
Every Panther fan has high hopes for this kid. He has the build, speed and skill that fans get excited about. And with Deangelo lighting it up in front of him... His mistakes get swept under the rug.
7. John Kasay
The lone original Panther. He has literally been through everything. The only reason I don't put him higher is because he flippin' could have won us a Superbowl! Gotta hold that against him.
8. Brad Hoover
You know why he is here the first time you go to a game and hear "Hooooooooooooooooov".
9. Chris Harris
You gotta like Chris. He came from a "hate-able" team that under-valued him, and immediately showed that he was going to be an impact player. When interviewed he is always smiling but yet a straight shooter, which is refreshing on a team where the motto is "It is what it is".
The Leave Ems'
1. Jake Delhomme
As much of an asset as Jake is to this team, he also has to be the most hated. Jake is the face and the butt of the franchise.
2. Julius Peppers
Due to his lack of effort and his "Can't wait to get out of town" scheme, some fans don't even want him on the team. A weird fate for a potential Hall-Of-Famer.
Dude came into town on a white horse. The heir apparent to the beloved Moose. But he was too over confident, forgot to study his play book and partied a way too much. It took an All-Pro wide receiver to rebuke him on television to knock some sense into him. Lucky for him, a big season in 2009 could erase everything. Fans want him to change his stars.
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I think Jake is very likeable off the field
He is such and ‘awe shucks’ type of blue-collar guy. I like Smith on the field but I still have my doubts off the field. Let’s see if he can go a whole season without punching someone so I wouldn’t have him on the ‘like’ list. I would put Beason at the top of the ‘like’ list because I think he is going to be a team leader, very vocal and a motivator on and off the field.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
by Jaxon on Jul 10, 2009 9:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1 on Jake.
I don’t know anybody who dislikes him as a person.
Smith went seven years without punching someone. Would you have smiled and patted Anthony Bright in the back when he tried to make you look bad in a film session in an attempt to cost you a roster spot?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never heard about the details of why the fight started
I’m sure Bright and Lucas both said something offensive to Smith but it still doesn’t justify punching a teammate. There are other ways of handling it and you can read my thoughts on the whole debacle here. I don’t care to rehash it.
What I will say is that I think in the end Smitty handled it about as best he could and I’m glad for that but most of the credit has to be given to Lucas for being gracious. I will say that every time I’ve seen Smith in person he ALWAYS takes time for the fans and seems to be a fairly humble guy so I can understand why some fans like him. I didn’t say I’d put him on the ‘dislike’ list but his past indiscretions give me pause when considering anything off the field and there isn’t anything anyone can say to change my mind in that regard.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
by Jaxon on Jul 10, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the Bright incident:
All the WRs are in a film session, and they come to a play where Smith made a mistake. It’s pointed out by the coach, and Smith acknowledges it. Bright, however, asks for the play to be shown again more than once, with no particularly good reason for it other than showing up Smith and trying to cost him reps, PT, or at worst, a roster spot. Smith told him he didn’t appreciate it, Bright shot his mouth off back, and he got hit. Did Smith cross a line? Sure, but it’s not like he just nailed a guy for no reason, as is often portrayed.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lucas and Bright had it coming
Everyone knows Steve has a short fuse… He’s admitted it himself. But that steams from the same attitude that makes him so good. I guarantee you’d never seem him getting into it with a good-guy personality like DeAngelo or Beason. Teammates know he struggles with this, so if they are badgering him then they obviously don’t have their head on straight.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 11, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whether they had it coming or not...
…still doesn’t justify Steve Smith’s actions when his short fuse ignites. The guy still needs to learn to control his anger, even if others are goading him. It’s called “turn the other cheek” and it’s still one of the wisest things you can do as a high-profile athlete.
by NSpicer on Jul 12, 2009 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then again...
He shouldn’t take all the blame if others were clearly the instigators.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 12, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He made a mistake and admitted it
Have you never been in a situation where somebody deserved to get popped in the mouth?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 12, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Allow me to repeat...
…turn the other cheek. The philosophy you guys are espousing only leads to further grudges and further escalation. I’ll admit there comes a time when you draw a line. I do not believe Steve Smith draws that line very far out. He’s much more spontaneous than that. Which means he should think more than twice before he acts in those situations.
But that’s just my two-cents,
—Neil
by NSpicer on Jul 15, 2009 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What that philospohy leads to is...
Smitty sippin pina-coladas at the pro-bowl in Hawaii, and the players he punched playing on other teams. ;)
It has turned out well each time. But you are right… because the 3rd time he might not be so lucky. And his legacy is on the line.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 15, 2009 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd put Jake on the like list
Definitely my favorite Panther, now that Mike Minter has left the building.
by Flowing Willow on Jul 11, 2009 2:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A nice guy off the field doesn't win games.
I like Jake as a person too. But he’s not a great QB. He is our best option right now. I put him top of the dislike list because he seems to have the most haters.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 11, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Umm...
Something has won games for him.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 11, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Deangelo and Smitty carried the team last year
In 03’ it was Stephen Davis. In 05’ Steve Smith. Jake helps at times and is a liability at others.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 11, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If anyone goes on the dislike list...
…it has to be Jake. Not because I dislike him. But because there is admittedly, many who do. But the notion that Deangelo and Smitty “carried” the team is erroneous. There were games where those guys did so. Just as there were games (i.e., San Diego) where Jake did as well. It’s a team game anyway. If you’re looking for Delhomme to be a Hall of Fame QB that dictates how every game is played, you won’t find that in him. But he’s very good at what we do ask him to do…i.e., manage the game and occasionally play Captain Comeback. Other than that, he’s human and makes mistakes like anyone else.
by NSpicer on Jul 12, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said "he helps at times", just like you pointed out
But I think he is sometimes a liability, where many of you think “he makes mistakes like anyone else”. Jake has had horrid games before the 08’ playoffs, that we just brushed off as “everyone makes mistakes”. Hey he took us to a Superbowl right? We’ve seen him play great! But we’ve also seen head scratchers where he could do no good… even in 08’ against terrible teams! We thought maybe he’d learn from it, come back stronger… Where did that get us? 6 picks in the biggest game, that ended our best season ever! That is not like everyone else. I cannot think of another QB that had 6 picks in a game.
I would like to know who here things Jake will not lose a game for us in 09’???
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 12, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, there have been nine QBs who have been picked at least SEVEN times in a game...
Including one Ken Stabler, but Delhomme clearly is the worst QB ever.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 13, 2009 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love how everything eventually leads back to a Jake bashing.
If you look through just about any thread having to do with passing the ball at all, you will find at least one or two comments stemming off the “great Jake debate”
he truly is the most loved and hated player on the team, and usually once you pick a side in the argument you get pretty passionate about it. I for one, am a Jake hater.
But, the point being, he clearly deserves his own category as the biggest controversy on the Panthers.
by Tater596 on Jul 13, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love Beason he gets things done and he never says anything wrong
by Heyward is the next crime dog on Jul 10, 2009 11:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Beason will be the next Ray Lewis
in regards to his ability to motivate his team mates on the field (not the off-the-field stuff for sure).
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
by Jaxon on Jul 10, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great leader.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beason isn't as mean as Lewis
He will definitely be a great leader and player… possibly one of the best for some time. But I don’t see that same Ray Lewis nastiness in him.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 11, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which makes me...
…respect and pull for Beason all that more. There are certain athletes who deserve more praise for what they stand for…than just their ability on the field.
I also seriously doubt we’ll see Beason mixed up in a court case where he could possibly face murder charges. That kind of “mean” and “nastiness” we don’t need in Carolina.
But that’s just my two-cents,
—Neil
by NSpicer on Jul 12, 2009 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait...
Ray Allen was brought up on murder charges?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 12, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ray Lewis has a problem limiting said "nastiness"
To be a truly great football player, you have to develop a killer instinct and leave it on the field. Beason has that. Lewis clearly took his killer instinct OFF the field.
by Tater596 on Jul 13, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Moose should rank way lower on this list.
I really don’t care, but there has to be some consideration given to his drug and weapons charges of the past.
And come on with the Kasay SB crap. Did you watch Brady in that game? Did you see the way their offense moved on that final drive? 20 yards weren’t going to make a difference, and Kasay didn’t lose that game (or not win it) any more than the defense did for letting the Pats drive 40 yards in not even a minute in the first place.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2009 1:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I personnally never held a grudge against Kasay
for that kick off. Yeah, it was a bad play that hurt but you are correct. The defense still had a chance to make a play and didn’t. I would actually even have Kasay on the ‘like’ list for being the last original Panther (even though he went to UGA)
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
by Jaxon on Jul 10, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was still a very, very poor time to kick the ball out of bounds. There’s no need to hold a grudge but of all the times to kick it out of bounds. I still find him likeable though.
by bengoodfella on Jul 10, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was a total disaster.
But he surely knows that as well as anyone. And kickoffs have never been the guy’s forte. Could have been it was time to find a replacement sooner than when Lloyd came on board.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just Sayin!
Definitely a terrible time to kick out of bounds. But imagine his popularity had he nailed that last field goal… as long as it was… He would have gone down as one of the biggest names in Panthers history!
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 10, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jake, Jake, Jake, sigh.
Here’s the situation:
1. We’re all frustrated about the way the season ended with Arizona. It was an embarrassing loss that sticks in the memory, and Jake had a bad, no – an awful day. I know technically, he holds the ball too low and loose, and over throws a bit. Okay.
2. But haters, consider this counter-factual – if John Fox doesn’t insert Jake in the 3rd quarter September 2003, there is no magical Cardiac Cats’ season, and no superbowl. Rodney Peete wasn’t doing it, and Chris Weinke never could have. Without Jake’s FIRE, there’ no 17-point comeback, no victory at Tampa Bay, a loss to Indy, another loss to Tampa Bay, add another loss to New Orleans. Panthers do maybe a 6-10 season rather than a 11-5 one because there’s no confidence at QB. Maybe Jake is inserted the 3rd game of the season, Panthers go 9-7 and miss the playoffs to Tampa Bay and “Chuckie”.
3. Jake makes me crazy sometimes to be sure, but compared to the memory of Collins quitting, or Beurlein being dumped for no good reason, or Rodney Peete looking like Jabba the Hut out there, I’ll take Jake all day long. Jake doesn’t make the tabloids (Brady), and he doesn’t blame his blocking (Manning), and he doesn’t complain about the size of his wide receivers (Roethlisberger). He’s an old school, humble, committed leader, and anyone who really wishes for the alternative should treasure this time because it won’t always feel this good – because you know with Jake, you’re always in the game.
Jake’s confidence, fire, and leadership have made the difference in at least a third of all games played since 2003. I’ll take him every time.
And one more thing – you can bet Arizona ticked him off alot more than it did any of us. Watch out, because 2009 could be magical.
by Barbados on Jul 11, 2009 5:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Peete or Weinke shouldn't have been starters for any team
… so it’s pointless to compare Jake to them. And Brady, Manning and Roethlisberger total like 7 Superbowl rings… Jake has none. Jake is a good situational QB that also benefits from a top 5 receiver and a run first offense. But at other times there is no denying that he is a liability.
Fox/Hurney didn’t want to risk investing in a new QB, when they have a team built to win now. At least with Jake they know what they are getting. But let’s be honest, everyone knows Jake is not going to carry this team to a Superbowl win. He might help us enough at times to get to one… but only if the defense and running game lives up to expectations.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 11, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm confused...
Is it the defense and running game that led all of those fourth-quarter comebacks?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 11, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said "Jake is a good situational QB"
That means in certain situations he does well. Unfortunately games come down to a lot more than just the 2 minute drill.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 11, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And more than 60% of the time, his team has won.
Are you saying all of those have been somebody else’s fault? Strikes me that must be pretty rare for a QB to have never been the cause for his team’s wins but was the root problem in all of their losses.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 11, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are talking in all absolutes
I never said he NEVER won any game and was ALWAYS the fault of EVERY loss. I’m just saying he is often a liability, and looks good due to Fox’s run first system. In other words, I don’t think he would survive on a more pass-happy offense.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 11, 2009 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And yet he's put up good raw numbers when given the opportunity.
29 TDs and nearly 3900 yards in ‘04? But, as you’re well aware, I’m sure, we were only 7-9. Again, there’s more to successfully playing QB than putting up 400 yards and 6 TDs every game. Would you truly rather be a Saints fan because their QB puts up good numbers and gets them nowhere? Me, I’m glad to have a QB who wins more games for us than he loses.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 11, 2009 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Panthers have a better team than the Saints
But the Saints would be worse with Jake, and the Panthers would be amazing with Breeze.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 11, 2009 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you say.
But there is no way whatsoever to prove that.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 11, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
Like there is no way to prove Steve Smith would be any good on another team. Let’s just say I have a hunch.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 12, 2009 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He certainly hasn't been as good without Jake throwing him the ball.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 13, 2009 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe it was time...
To throw Moore into the 2nd half of that Cardinals game and just see what happens. You just never know where the hero is. Hell McCown maybe could have been a hero then. Those are the moments that people remember. In my opinion, and this is my opinion, the coaching staff should have known Jake was up to no good by half time (or at least after the first drive of the 2nd half) and they should have given one of the other QBs on our roster the chance to come in and be a difference maker. What do you have to lose at that point? It is a do or die situation, how do you let your QB who is clearly rattled out of his head keep dying out there?
by Tater596 on Jul 13, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hard to define that "rattled" business...
I won’t take the time to look one up unless you make me, but I’m certain there are times Jake has had a poor start to a game and come back to lead us to a win. When a guy’s your guy and the backups haven’t seen any real time in over a full season, I think you hitch your wagon to him, sink or swim (how’s that for a mixed metaphor?)
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 13, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup...gotta dance with the horse that brought you
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
by Jaxon on Jul 15, 2009 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
At halftime, they probably hoped their adjustments would allow Jake to be more successful. But the defense stunk up that game just as worse. I would also conjecture that they felt Jake had the better Captain Comeback skills in him vs. Moore or McCown. Thus, they rode him to the bitter end.
Personally, I put the result of that game equally on the heads of the coaching staff. They had a lousy offensive AND defensive game plan for the Cardinals. They did a lousy job making adjustments at half-time. And they all pushed the panic button. For instance, HOW do you leave the ball in the hands of a QB with no confidence when you have a running game capable to getting you back in the game if you’ll just have the patience to stick with it? I figure they lacked confidence that the running game would be able to put up enough points to stick with Warner and Fitzgerald…which really means the coaches had zero-confidence in the Panthers’ defense to stop them.
by NSpicer on Jul 15, 2009 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said "Jake is a good situational QB"
That means in certain situations he does well. Unfortunately games come down to a lot more than just the 2 minute drill.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 11, 2009 3:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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