Is Jake Delhomme worthy of his new contract?
by CaroPanthers on Jul 7, 2009 10:56 AM EDT
87 comments
There has been a lot of controversy about the resigning of Jake Delhomme, especially after his six turnover performance against the Cardinals in the playoffs. No matter what we think as fans Jake was coming back no matter what. Where I have a issue is the fact that they have not brought in any free agents or rookies as a insurance policy. It would be healthy to have some competition at the QB spot, if there is a issue the Panthers have Matt Moore to fall back on.
I am not sure that Delhomme is the long term answer for the team. After all of those turnovers in the playoffs, he gets rewarded with a big long term contract. Even though he is in his mid thirties and plays good, not great he is the only man in John Fox wants for the job. Fox knows that the Panthers are a run first team and will do so on the first two downs and leave it up to Delhomme on third downs. Which does put a lot of pressure on a QB, and makes his job a little more difficult. With that said does he deserve the contract that he got?
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Umm...
Didn’t we trade for Josh McCown, a backup with more starting experience than the vast majority of #2s in the NFL?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
And there's no point in worrying at the contract at this point.
He’s paid far fewer than plenty of other QBs who’ve never led their teams to any success in their careers, much less the kind Jake’s brought to the Panthers.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 7, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
It's highly unlikely...
.. That he sees the entirety of that contract. We gave him the contract to free up cap space. Also, in the NFL, if you sign a “contract” it really doesn’t mean much, you may never see that money, a team can release you at any time.
Also, as MP pointed out, McCown does have a lot of starting experience, and I think is a solid backup QB. Matt Moore is our yearly enigma, I just hope we either decide he is the future this year or draft someone else next year. Our draft board is getting pretty full for next year if that’s the case with the pressing needs at DT and likely along the offensive line.
I think you read it wrong
It sounded like he is saying we should have brought someone in to compete with Jake. McCown was brought in purely as a backup(for now), because of the 07’ QB fiasco. By giving Jake the fat wallet they are telling the whole team that Jake is the guy… no competition.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
"they have not brought in ANY free agents or rookies as a insurance policy"
That statement is wrong. And, just checking: did you think Delhomme was brought in to be the starter in ’03?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 11, 2009 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
No
But I wouldn’t compare Jake to Rodney Peete either. I don’t think Rodney Peete was ever Fox’s guy. But I definitely think by giving Jake the cash they are letting the whole team know that the Panthers live or die with Jake.
With this in mind, I think Jake’s biggest accomplishment was helping to turn the team around. He definitely provided the spark to set us on course.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
No, he doesnt deserve that kind of money
by Heyward is the next crime dog on Jul 7, 2009 12:31 PM EDT reply actions
Is he paid to win games or put up nice stats?
It does sound like a lot of money but as MP has analyzed int he past he makes middle of the road money for an experienced starting QB in the league. The fact is he went 12-5 last season. I think we have to see how 2009 goes to really evaluate whether he was overpaid.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
I know we won games with him at QB but think how many more games we would win if we had a QB like Drew Brees and still used our running game
by Heyward is the next crime dog on Jul 7, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
We wouldn't HAVE our running game.
You can’t pay to have All Pro players at every position. It’s just not feasible in a capped league.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 8, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
ATL used to have the top running game
And one of the top paid QBs
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
And how much did they win?
In six years, Vick led them to two playoff wins.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 11, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
Personally, I believe one of the best approaches to winning in this league is to get good linemen (on both sides of the ball) and then hope you get lucky with low-round draft picks you don’t have to pay as much and re-tread free agents you can pick up cheaply who then undergo a renaissance. If you can get some players like that and pay a few key stars (i.e., that core nucleus Fox and Hurney keep talking about), I think that’s a greater recipe for success than just having the highest paid RBs and QB.
Exactly.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 12, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that's Fox's thoughts as well
I was just pointing out that it can be done, not that it should. I admire teams like the Steelers who can let players go once their price tag soars, and still build a win Superbowls. I also like that with the exception of the Keyshawn fiasco, Fox/Hurney seem to stick with their home grown guys instead of bringing in big names.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
The Keyshawn "fiasco" worked out pretty well for us.
Keyshawn Johnson came to Charlotte and did exactly what he has done his entire career, caught the tough passes over the middle and held onto the ball even under the hardest hits.
Also, he kept his ego completely in check while in Carolina. As a Panther, the whole “just give me the damn ball” moniker was a thing of the past. He was an excellent FA acquisition for us.
Except he was not a leader and left Jake to blame on several bad plays.
The fade to Key in the Philly game comes to mind when Key completely miss timed his jump.
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 13, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 13, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, yes, one would think not trashing your teammates is an implied request of your players.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 13, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
And Jake?
He’s kicked and screamed and yelled obscenities quite a few times, not to mention passed blame on his fellow teammates. Just watch him any given sunday when he is having a bad day.
When has he ever called out a player in an in appropriate time?
IMO, one cannot fault another when stuff happens on the field between players. If it happened in the media, then that is another thing all together.
When Jake was getting and taking the blame for the INT in the endzone against Philly, Key did not step up and say otherwise. To me that stinks of a prideful player and one who thinks of himself before the team.
No we did not ask him to be the leader of the team, but we did ask him to be a leader, just as MP stated. IMO, it was Key’s lack of leadership that led to him being released. They did not want his attitude to rub off on Jarrett and Robinson.
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 13, 2009 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
When?
He gyrates and yells, but it’s in frustration with himself, not his teammates. Never have you heard him call out a teammate for a pick or a dropped pass, even though I’m sure there have been times that they have been his fault. How many INTs came right off the hands of Panthers’ receivers last year?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 13, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Lol
He only cries to his o-line because they are the ones letting him get sacked. He doesn’t get pummeled when a receiver drops a pass.
But regardless the team and staff respect Jake. They obviously had no respect for Keyshawn, cutting him for a USC rookie!
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Sorry Just curious
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
exactly how narrow
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
this column will get
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
don’t be annoyed
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
just humor me
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I am easily amused
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by things
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like this
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little more
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oh… its already stopped narrowing
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Ha.
I wondered why there were suddenly 20 new comments.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 14, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
not saying KJ was a role model
But I am saying that his attitude in Carolina was way better than it was anywhere else he played. He also put up decent numbers in his 1 year with us. So to that end, he fulfilled his purpose.
Correct.
But it’s sad commentary that he still wasn’t a good teammate at his best.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 14, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Why do we defend Jake by crediting him with all the wins
Jake helped us win a couple games. But it was our top 5 RB, top 5 WR, top 5 DE, top 5 O-line that brought us to 12 wins. According to this logic Jake was a far better QB than Drew Breeze last year because he won more. I like Jake ok, but would take Breeze any day.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Because, at the end of the day, that's the way to judge QBs.
It’s his job to lead the offense to score more than the other team. Without Jake under center, everything fell apart just two years ago. Without Jake under center, Smith wasn’t a top-5 WR that year; maybe he was top-15.
And if you’re just comparing stats, of course Brees had better numbers than Delhomme. He threw 50% more passes and their team was losing most of their games! However, over the course of their careers, their rate stats are very comprable.
Brees Delhomme
Rating 89 86
TD% 4.6 4.8
INT% 2.7 3.0
YPA 7.2 7.3
YPC 11.3 12.3
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 11, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess we just see it differently
I think a lot more goes into a winning team than just the QB. I think we can call guys like Dan Marino great, even without the Superbowls. I don’t think Tom Brady could take the Detroit Lions to a Superbowl. Bottom line: Our QB can be great at times and be a liability at others… I don’t understand why that point is debatable.
I think this team can still win a Superbowl if 2 things happen: 1. the defense improves from last year. And 2. Jake protects the ball in big games.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
But seriously...
Jake has led us to enough comebacks and late-quarter wins (with him having to throw the ball) that it’s actually warranted to give him credit for a lot more of those wins than the typical QB.
But that’s just my two-cents,
—Neil
So are you happy with a QB that wins a couple in the 4th quarter, yet throws multiple picks in other games... against terrible teams?
A Brown’s fan once told me(from experience)… great seasons means nothing if you don’t win the Superbowl. Nobody will remember. 12-4 season means nothing. Nobody other than Panther fans will remember we were 2nd place in 03’. Just like Jake’s 4th quarter wins will mean nothing if he can’t pull it together for a playoff run, and win a Superbowl.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
What great Browns seasons were they talking about?
If your claim really is that a QB can’t be good unless they win a Super Bowl, I guess it’s fair to say Dan Marino was never anything other than a regular-season QB.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 13, 2009 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions
He's the exception ;)
But doesn’t the fact that this always comes up about him mean his legacy is somewhat tarnished by it?
The Browns were very good in the late 80’s. They went to 3 AFC Championships. Yet they are one of 5(I think) teams to never have won a Superbowl. Your question is proof that no one remembers.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
again,
I see more and more ppl who are looking at the NFC Championship game and basing an opinion of Jake Delhomme SOLEY on that performance and thats not fair to Jake… And another thing, would Drew Brees be as good as he is if he had a running game like we have? No. His stats would not be anywhere near as high as they are now, and he can put up those kinds of numbers because he doesn’t have as solid of a running game to fall back on. Jake gets the job done for a “Carolina QB”, which is to manage the clock effectively, and renew drives on 3rd and short.
he gets us to the playoffs and that is nice but I would like to win a super bowl and we cant win every game with our running game, in the first Arizona game jake played well and we won in the second he stunk and we lost, he is to inconsistant, we can get an inconsistant QB for less money than what we paid Jake, its not that I dont like the guy but he doesnt deserve that money
by Heyward is the next crime dog on Jul 8, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
We can get an inconsistent QB, sure...
But there is no chance we can get a QB who is as good as often as Jake is for any cheaper than what he’s going to get.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 8, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Jake's stats compare very well with other QB's who have won MULTIPLE Super Bowls while being a "game manager" type of QB.
Troy Aikman – 3 SB’s & Hall of Fame
Ben Roethlisberger – 2 SB’s
Eli Manning – 1 SB
Will Parker
How many of them have 6 interceptions in a game?
The problem is that when Jake is off, he is playing for the other team.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
And no QB in the league has a bad day outside of him?
Aikman:
1999 Wild Card round vs. Arizona: 22-49, 191 yards, 3 INTs, 1 TD
1997 Divisional round@Carolina: 18-36, 165 yards, 3 INTs, 1 TD
1992 Divisional round@Detroit: 11-16, 136 yards, 1 INT
(all losses)
Roethlisberger:
2006 Super Bowl vs. Seattle: 9-21, 123, 2 INTs
2005 Divisional round vs. NYJ: 17-30, 181, 2 INTs, 1 TD
2005 AFC Championship vs. NE: 14-24, 226, 3 INTs, 2 TDs
2008 Wild Card round vs. Jacksonville: 29-42, 337, 3 INTs, 2 TDs (L)
Manning:
2006 Wild Card round vs. Carolina: 10-18, 113, 3 INTs (L)
2009 Divisional round vs. Philadelphia: 15-29, 169, 2 INTs
2008 NFC Championship@GB: 21-40, 251
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 11, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, Jake hasn't had 6 INT's either.
He had 5 INT’s and a fumble. To answer your question:
Aikman
- 5 INT’s on 10/15/00 against the Giants
- 4 INT’s on 12/24/89 against the Packers
- 3 INT’s in 8 games
Roethlisberger
- 4 INT’s on 10/26/08 against the Giants – he also had a fumble in this game
- 4 INT’s on 10/29/06 against the Raiders
- 3 INT’s on 1/5/08 against the Jags – he also had a fumble in this game
- 3 INT’s on 1/23/04 against the Patriots – he also had a fumble in this game
- 3 INT’s in 5 other games
Manning
- 4 INT’s on 11/13/05 against the Vikings
- 4 INT’s on 11/25/07 against the Vikings
- 3 INT’s in 4 games
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 11, 2009 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
You guys are really stretching
You are now comparing Jake to Hall of Fame QBs. The only one fair to compare him to on this list is Roethlisberger.
For the record Manning’s worst QB rating was 39.3, in his rookie year against a 12-4 NY Jets team. Jake just last year had a 12.3 rating, with 4 interceptions against the Oakland Raiders!
I’m not against the team’s move this year to go with Jake… but at least I’m trying to be realistic about who he is.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 12, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait a minute, what?
Manning has had a QB rating lower than 39.3 seven different times, including a 0.0 against the Ravens in ‘04 and a 35.0 against us in the playoffs in ’05. Tough to be “realistic” when you’re misrepresenting factual statements.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 13, 2009 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, and just in case you were talking about Peyton for some reason...
35.0 in ’01@Miami (3 INTs)
35.5 in ’05 AFC Championship@NE (4 INTs)
31.2 in ’03 Wild Card round@NYJ (2 INTs)
And, by the way, he also had a 6 INT game against SD just two years ago.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 13, 2009 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions
You guys are brutal!
I scanned NFL.com and 98’ was the lowest rating I saw… I stand corrected. I was off on his worst rating by 8.1. Of course that is still 19 worse than Jake’s 12 last year!
But even though I think you guys are being homers… I hope you guys are right for the sake of the team. Sounds ridiculous to me to say Jake is as good as Troy Aikman or Peyton Manning, but hey… If thats how you feel then I am happy for you.
Now I am going to finish my beer offline, before I misrepresent any more stats and get stoned for it ;)
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
LOL
I was comparing the QB’s and there production. i think they are more comparable than say Peyton, Brees, Warner, McNabb, etc. b/c of the offense they are in. Jake will not have as many attempts as these guys.
Oh, in the previous posts, we were referencing Eli and not Peyton. Give me a minute while I go and get a few stones;)
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 13, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
That wasn't what we were saying.
We were simply refuting your apparent suggestion that Jake is the only QB in the league who has bad games and at times “play[s] for the other team.”
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 14, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Please!
Show me where I said Jake was the ONLY QB to have bad games. I’m not a Jake hater… Just am uneasy with him now. And I think most people are… EVEN if they think he us the best option.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 14, 2009 2:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Then explain this:
“How many of them have 6 interceptions in a game?
The problem is that when Jake is off, he is playing for the other team."
I think it’s tough to suggest he’s any worse any more often than lots of great QBs are.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 14, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm tired
But let me get this right. He’s no worse than other great QBs. So you really do think he is as good as Peyton or Aikman?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 14, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
No.
Read again: I said he’s not worse any more often on his “bad days,” which seems to be the thrust of your argument.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 15, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions
This might be off subject a little,
But I would say that improvement from the defense is more important than improvement from Jake. The only reason we won the division last year was b/c of our dominant offense and more specifically our run game. No team in the NFL can regularly be competitve with a defense allowing 25.8 points/game (as we did the last 10, playoffs included).
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 14, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
This.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 14, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
A good place to find game logs
www.pro-football-reference.com You can look at both regular season and playoff games, and sort by all kinds of stats: rating, TDs, INTs, yards, comp. %, etc.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 14, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Stretching?
The comparison of said QB’s is that the responsibilities were similar on run first teams and that there production was very similar as well.
Would you not agree that they were asked run a similar type of offense?
They were QB’s on teams with a run first mentality with great defenses. They had great teams around them. Aikman had Emmitt, Irvin, the monstrous o-line, and a solid to great defense. Roethlisberger had Bettis, Parker, Holmes, Ward, a great defense. Manning had Jacobs, Ward, Burress, o-line, and a great defense.
If we can get our defense to step up and perform better from start to finish, then I consider us legitimate contenders. If we do win, then Jake right in the mix with that group of QB’s.
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 13, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
One thing I've noticed
is that everyone seems to forget that the reason we resigned Delhomme was to free up some cap space to sign our rookies. It wasn’t the only reason, but it was a big one.
Yes and it is also the reason it was a four year contract
They needed to be able to spread the money over more years.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Not the rookies.
There’s a portion of the cap that has to be set aside for them every year.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 8, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
MP, I remember you mentioning this fact before.
I do not know anything about this rule. Can you elaborate on it or send a link? Thanks bro.
Will Parker
http://www.thesportjournal.org/article/nfl-rookie-cap-empirical-analysis-one-nfls-most-closely-guarded-secrets
This paper actually uses the Panthers as an example to explain how it’s created and applied.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 9, 2009 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
This is a long and intricate journal entry. I will have to spend some time on it before making any comment.
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 10, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
That's cool.
It was just the best article I could find near the top of the google search. In essence, it describes the way that the rookie cap serves the dual purposes of containing rookie salaries and making sure money is set aside for them so teams are “forced” to use their draft picks, as opposed to making picks and just cutting them loose.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Gotcha.
One of the questions I have, in general, is how do they figure out the numbers for the players? When thinking about yearly inflation of draft pick salary’s and the greedy agents waiting to cash-in on the players and teams, I find it hard to make a solid determination.
But i guess that was the point of the journal and what it was describing throughout. Wouldn’t it be nice if there was a rookie cap like the NBA? Then teams would actually want the #1 pick.
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 10, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, to some degree, there really is...
It’s not set by the league, but from the 2nd round on, the draft contracts are basically slotted into what was paid to that draft position last year, with a slight bump to reflect the typical increase in the cap.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
It works...
Just copy and paste.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Baldinger's generally an idiot...
But Wilcots ignores the fact that Delhomme’s cap hit went down 20% based on his extension and that he’s paid a very reasonable salary going forward relative to comprable QBs in the league. Further, he totally dismisses Josh McCown as a backup (as everybody seems to do) who has almost 50 starts under his belt. And Baldinger sums it up perfectly at the end:
I don’t think you can just look at one game and evaluate Delhomme. He’s had games where he’s been awful. The thing about him is that he understands there’s another week to play and he’ll do his best to bounce back. Usually he doesn’t let it get him down.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 13, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I can't stand to listen to an analyst after they say Matt Moore is the only other option.
McCown is a perfectly good insurance policy for what Fox wants to do. But Baldinger nails it this time. It’s not about Jake being as good as Manning or Aikman, like some of you think… It is that he does what he’s asked to do, he doesn’t complain, he shakes off his mistakes AND they like him. That is why Jake works in Fox’s system.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 13, 2009 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Again...
We weren’t saying Jake was as good as them, necessarily. Just that there have been plenty of great QBs who are as bad or worse on their bad days, too.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 14, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
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