Panthers Depth Chart Predictions – DE
by Jaxon on Jul 7, 2009 10:30 AM EDT
58 comments
The next Panthers positional review is defensive end. Prior to All-Pro Julius Peppers recent signing of his franchise tender the depth chart at DE was anybody’s guess. With Peppers back in the fold things are a little clearer at least on one side of the equation. The remaining question is who will man the other side across from Peppers on 1st and 2nd down. Here’s the current depth chart at DE for the Panthers current roster:
| LDE | DT | DT | RDE |
| Brayton | Peppers | ||
| Johnson | Brown | ||
| Brinkley | Taylor |
As much as I want to make a bold prediction that 3rd year player Charles Johnson will unseat Tyler Brayton I’m thinking this is one of those cases where HC John Fox sticks with the more experienced player in Brayton. With that resolved the only question is whether the Panthers keep five DE’s or not. Last season they only keep four so this could be the end of Hilee Taylor and/or
There is no doubt we have spent enough bytes of space on this blog about Peppers so I’m not going to go into a lot of detail. I predict Pep will start on the right side but will be moved around just as he was last season. He could potentially line up at all 4 DL spots throughout the course of the game and I don’t see that changing. My hope is that he improves on his 14.5 sacks and 51 tackles last season in a bid to prove he is worth the huge price tag is commanding.
Tyler Brayton - 70% chance of starting at LDE
As stated earlier I’m going with the safe bet that Brayton sticks one more season in
This should be a big season for Johnson as he looks to show he has skills to be an every down DE in this league. His 6.5 sacks and 40 tackles last season as a back-up are impressive and the word is he has worked on his strength and size in the off-season. My hope is Johnson develops into a Mike Rucker type of DE who excels first as a run stopper but can also get after the QB. Though I only give an outside chance of him to start game one in 2009 I think that he will be a starter next year if not later this season.
The Panther shave the luxury of letting the rookie Brown soak up the newness of the NFL and the Panthers scheme without throwing him in the fire. I have no doubt in future seasons he will be a starter for this team but I only see an outside chance of it happening right away. Brown will instead be the situational pass rusher similar to that of Hilee Taylor last season though I see Brown getting on the field more. The only question is whether he will stick to his more natural right side or play the left side as he did recently during OTA’s. Given the positive comments from RT Jeff Otah from OTA’s about Browns speed and strength he might end up the first pass rusher off the bench and line-up across from Pep. This the dream scenario for Panther fans in my opinion as it means we’ve speed coming of the edge from both sides.
In 10 games last season
I believe Brinkley is still eligible for the PS and that is his best chance at this point in my view. Brinkley didn’t leave much of an impression last preseason so he really needs to step it up if he is going to stay in the league. If he plays well on special teams I think there is an outside chance the Panthers to use a roster spot on him but I wouldn’t bet on those odds.
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I want to see Johnson start
by Heyward is the next crime dog on Jul 7, 2009 10:52 AM EDT reply actions
I'm in agreement on that
Hopefully he will earn it in TC
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
If he earns the starting job, then I would like to see it happen. I don’t want Fox to stick with Brayton out of veteran loyalty but I also don’t want Johnson just handed the job. It would be nice to see him win the job in TC.
Actually, it would be nice to see Brown win the job but that probably won’t happen.
Honestly, I don't know why John Fox isn't starting Charles Johnson
The roles between Tyler and Johnson need to be flipped. Maybe it’s another strike of the veteran superiority complex that is often the case with John Fox and his personnel decisions, but Charles Johnson perform way too well as a backup to justify him sitting on the bench and watching someone else take the majority of the snaps.
I’m of the opinion that we have the next Mike Rucker here on the field with us in Carolina, we just haven’t unleashed his fury on the field yet.
The DE position is stronger than we think it is. The true worry is at DT where we have two old veterans that have a hard time stopping the run. Our linebackers, especially Jon Beason will have to give them some serious help this year or they’re going to kill us with those draw plays and simple runs up the middle.
"Once again the trowsers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
You think we might try and put some speed in the middle?
Given the talent we have at DE, it is feasible we will have a “speed package” where we sub in DE’s for DT’s and just stick them in the middle. The hope there is that the added speed will make up for the lack of girth, i.e. the speedier ends will be able to catch the center/guards of balance since they are faster off the ball and make a good enough initial push to bust up a running play.
Look for a few youthful draft choices at DT next year.
I can say it's definately feasible.
Given Ron Meeks philosophy coming in from the Colts, I think it’s entirely likely that we may have something like that this year. Throw Everette Brown to the end position and move Charles and Tyler inside. It’s definitely something that would help our team on obvious 3rd down situations when pass rush is the most important concern.
"Once again the trowsers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
How about Pep and Brayton in the middle, with Johnson at LDE and Brown at RDE.
With the height of Pep and Brayton that should help with passes defensed.
Will Parker
Peppers is whiny.
How do you think he would respond to such an assignment?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
He has done it before.
I am not suggesting he is there for the whole game or even much of it, but that a few plays or packages to mix up what the opponents OL has to do and to get our best pass rushers on the field.
When has Pep ever been whiny. Quiet, yes of course.
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 11, 2009 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
He whined about how terrible it had been to play LE while Ruck was here as soon as he got moved over.
And his behavior during the whole franchise tag fiasco came across to me as very whiny. Demanding to be traded and then making it nearly impossible to do by refusing to sign the tag and eliminating 87% of the possible trade destinations strikes me as less than mature.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 11, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
He is allowed to have a preference, right?
I would say that his actions were less than ideal, but I would not classify them as whiny or immature. Not smart maybe.
As to him playing LE, I do not recall details of his conversation or that he came off as whiny. Do you have a link to the article?
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 11, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Q. How much difference might it have made if you had made the switch a few years ago?
I can’t say there would have been a difference because it didn’t happen. I’m on that side now. We’ll see now if I’m better on the left or the right.
Q. Do you want to stay with the Panthers long term?
What I’ve learned over these last six years that I’ve been here is that year to year it’s unpredictable what happens with players and contracts. Right now I’m worried about playing football. I’m not looking forward to (the 2009) season or after that. I’ve got to get focused on making it happen right now.
And then to call out the coaches who have gotten him 70.5 sacks in a 7-year career and who have coached him to multiple Pro Bowls and the millions of dollars in bonuses those selections got him because he “couldn’t reach his potential?” Classless, as far as I’m concerned.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 11, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I interpret those answers and statements a little differently...
I think Peppers answers about switching to the other side of the D-line was more of a dodge. It was like John Fox answering a “hypothetical” question from the press. It didn’t happen, so why speculate? Instead lets look forward and see how things go from there. That’s how I interpreted Pep’s comments on that question, both then and now.
As for his answer about playing long-term for the Panthers, I saw that as a player being careful not to tip his (or his agent’s) hand during a period of negotiation (both with the Panthers and any other interested teams). He didn’t want to get into talking about his long-term plans. He wanted to focus on playing football and “right now.” Personally, I like that answer much better than if he’d tried to use the press as a proxy vehicle for negotiating during his contract year. I think stuff like that tends to disrupt a season. And I think Pep did the right thing answering the way he did.
Finally, with regard to “calling the coaches out”…lets be honest. Someone needed to. Trgovac and company just weren’t getting it done. I don’t believe that was just because Peppers “gave up on plays too early” or “played inconsistent” all the time. I think a fair amount of it was the defensive scheme and philosophy. Personally, I think Peppers knew he couldn’t maximize his productivity in that system. I also think he was right. And I don’t really begrudge him for making that comment. Yes, it may have come across a bit like he was throwing his coaches under the bus a bit. But, in this case, I think it was warranted.
Thankfully, enough has changed now with the new defensive coaching staff and player acquisitions via the draft, that I think it offsets much of Peppers’ concerns. We’ll see though. Maybe I’m completely wrong. Maybe deep down he is a whiner. But, given what we’ve seen of his personality and standoffish nature, I kind of doubt it. A true whiner would have used the media a lot more to make such statements. Peppers actually tried to avoid doing so, for the most part.
So, to wrap up, I think calling him “classless” goes too far.
But that’s just my two-cents and you’re certainly entitled to your own opinion,
—Neil
I could not have said it any better.
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 13, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Then again...
This team has shown a penchant of late to go for talent over need in the draft.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
You are right on the money. That is why I wrote "focus" and not "selection."
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 11, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Does anyone remember we still have a 2011 first rounder ; D
But yeah, if we don’t take a DT relatively high, or even relatively low if he’s a good one, I am going to be mad.
by Flowing Willow on Jul 11, 2009 3:04 AM EDT up reply actions
With the projected depth...
…at DT coming in next year’s draft, I suspect we won’t try and burn our #1 pick in 2011 to jump back into the first round of the 2010 draft. We can probably wait until the second round and still get a good DT. But…having said that…if one of those elite DT prospects falls lower than expected…and the Panthers have him high on their draft board…it wouldn’t surprise me if they did another Otah-Brown type of trade. Otah has worked out better than expected. The jury’s still out on Brown. But for the moment, I give Fox and Hurney the benefit of the doubt on the wisdom of executing those kinds of trades. Whatever happens, it certainly makes for an interesting time during the offseason.
Just my two-cents,
—Neil
I will agree with this once Johnson wins the job in TC, which I would think he could do. I completely agree with the assessment of the DE position. I like it a lot and would like to see Taylor stick on the roster as well for this year. I think he has a pretty good chance of sticking.
Our DT position is really a source of nervousness for me though. I don’t see too much behind Kemo and Lewis, other than unproven rookies. I can easily see the Panthers dipping into the free agent market at the last minute if they don’t like what they have. I don’t know how much is out there though…
I am also nervous about the DT position.
This is the position that I am the most concerned about. Hopefully we can sign Pep long term and then find a quality DT through FA.
Will Parker
There really just aren't any out there.
If a guy is still not signed by the middle of July, he probably isn’t our answer at the position.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
" . . . he probably isn’t our answer at the position."
Well that depends on the question. Is there a guy out there that is better than say Nick Hayden, Lorenzo Williams, Marlon Favorite or Lonnie Harvey? I do not think it to be that far of a stretch.
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 11, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Dewayne RObertson
He’s fairly young, though I don’t know, how bad are his knees?
by Flowing Willow on Jul 11, 2009 3:05 AM EDT up reply actions
We already were linked to him, and they didn't make the signing.
Don’t know if that means the doctors weren’t happy with him or if his asking price was too high. The Titans also had some early interest and moved on. The other guys out on the market don’t inspire much confidence, either:
John Thornton, 33: Dealt with injuries and lost his starting job by the end of last year for a pretty weak Bengals D
Simon Fraser, 26: He’s kind of a DT/DE ’tweener, and he has experience at both positions, but his best success has been as 3-4 end.
Ellis Wyms, 30: He’s floated around lately as a backup DT (just 9 starts in an 8-year career), but could probably be a good addition, although he doesn’t have much upside at this point and would probably limit the development of our youngsters.
Beyond that, you’re looking at older journeymen like Brian Young, Antwan Lake, and Darwin Walker (who we also chose not to pick up earlier in the offseason despite interest from his end.) I’d guess they’re gonna give the young kids a shot. Favorite, remember, was one of the most highly recruited UFAs in this year’s class. He’s not just some camp-filler scrub.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 11, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, but at the cost increase...
Would it really be worth it for a marginal improvement at a position (#4 DT) that will probably only see 10-15 snaps a game?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 11, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
If there is room under the cap to improve a position, then absolutely.
Who knows, maybe a guy solid vet gets cut like Lawyer Milloy was a few years back by NE. Those 10-15 snaps/game could make a big difference especially over a season.
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 11, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Milloy was then signed to a starter-value contract and became a 16-game starter for them.
I guess it comes down to how much money you’re willing to spend on a backup when we have no idea how well our young guys might or might not do.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 11, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
them=the Bills
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 11, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Just curious then,
Do you have confidence in guys like Hayden, Favorite, Harvey, and co? I do not, even as a 4th DT.
My whole point is this, if we can improve our depth, if we have the cap space to do so, then why not do it?
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 13, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I do.
I think those guys can be just as cost-effective at the league minimum as some washed-up scrub for $1-2 mil. 100% And I’m talking about Hayden, a 6th-round pick who wasn’t supposed to be ready to contribute last year, and Favorite, who was one of the most-pursued UFAs in this class.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 13, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Cool
I hope they are better than Darwin was.
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 13, 2009 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Me too...
But I think they knew he wasn’t going to offer them much. He wasn’t young, and he was definitely on the downside of his career. Even if the young guys flop, I doubt we don’t have enough room to pick up a vet of his ilk at the minimum.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 14, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
"The true worry is at DT where we have two old veterans that have a hard time stopping the run."
You think Kemo has a hard time stopping the run? That is his specialty. D-Lew is not the best run stopper, but he is adequate/average.
Will Parker
Then again...
Was Johnson’s success aided by the fact that he was a backup? As a starter, you have to play in all situations, even those you weren’t suited for. Would Johnson have been as effective in rushing the passer if he had to take on run blocks in the early downs?
And if you’re suggesting Kemoeatu has a hard time stopping the run, you’re crazy. It’s Lewis who’s the penetrator with no ability to hold blocks.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Peppers back to LDE?
What are the chances that they will switch Peppers back to the strong-side LDE and play Brown at the RDE spot?
slim to none
Peppers was never comfortable at LDE. When you are a DE, you learn to perform different techniques with the your inside and outside arms. (Unless you are in a 3-4 defense, where you typically will have a strong side DE and weak side DE) So, peppers has learned to use his left arm for his rip technique, and to push with his right arm and throw the left over for a swim move. I’m not saying he wouldn’t be as strong the other way around, but lets face it, he was way more dominant as a RE then LE. The coaching staff will make Everette learn both positions, and i anticipate that he will be the #4 DE, and the last we keep on the roster.
As far as technique goes, that is not always the case for a 4-3 DE.
They also have calls to cross the OT face on an inside move whether a rip or a swim. Then there are also play calls when the DE’s have freedom to rush the passer either way they want, bull rush, outside, or inside. The best DE’s in the game will set up the OT with certain tendencies early in the game and then use the counter on a crucial situation. I heard Strahan break it down once, and I was extremely impressed with his knowledge, practice and application.
Will Parker
there are some other variables
But a guy like Peppers is usually going to get his way, and he stated he was not comfortable playing LE before last season. So, again, is there any reason to make him switch? probably not.
Correct
I was not disputing the fact that Pep will get most of his snaps at RDE. I was referencing the technique that was spoken of.
Will Parker
Then again...
He did play there (and pretty well) for what, six years? The only category in which he exceeded his career high last year was sacks.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, its not a question of ability.
And, as a former Defensive End in a 3-4 Defense (strong side, so I followed the TE to whichever side of the line he was on) it is not that hard to learn to play DE from either side of the line. IN fact, it creates an advantage, because the Tackles and Guards have a harder time recognizing patterns when you keep switching sides.
It’s still puzzling why the Panthers gave up another first round pick next year for a situational pass rusher. Giving up that much for a guy just to sit on the bench is crazy. I think we all know Fox is a main reason why the team is held back so often(they had 1500 yards rushing sitting on the bench behind Foster), so it’s no surprise there. I still don’t think Peppers will show any motivation leaving Brayton or Johnson along with the LB’s to pick up the slack. The defense is still a mess imo, new d coordinator, new schemes, new techniques, too many unanswered questions.
I don't think you can say...
that D-Will would have put up 1500 yds in 2007. Different line, schedule, Jake was out, etc… so many variables. Plus I honestly believe D-Will when he says he worked his tail off between the 07-08 seasons per his inspiring conversation with Vinnie T. I think all those factors played into his remarkable season. Would I have preferred having Williams in there over Foster in ‘07? Yes, but I don’ think the difference would have been that dramatic…outside of the the fumbles. Foster should have been benched just for that, fumbling. We got a big upgrade in that department
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
I kinda agree
Everette Brown has a TON to prove that he was worthy of that selection and trade. I think Moala was the 2nd best DT, and would’ve given us more in the short term, but you have to remember, this is before the Peppers situation.
That said, it’s now on Meeks to maximize out talent effectively, getting our DE ready to be starters if the need arises. Great depth isn’t always bad- and I still think a Peppers trade isn’t out of the question…
by the bomb dot com on Jul 7, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
It's a solid DT class next year
and we still have 2011’s first. : D That said, I’d love to see Johnson starting, but not at Brayton’s expense. I think Brayton has worked his tail off here and not shown any of the character problems he had in Oakland. A 50/50 split would be good, especially if Johnson improves against the run like I think he will. I like Hilee Taylor, but with a better version of him in Everette Brown, I think he gets axed.
by Flowing Willow on Jul 8, 2009 3:17 AM EDT up reply actions
What character problems are you talking about?
If it’s the knee to the groin situation, I’d probably do the same thing to Jerramy Stevens if I had the chance, particularly if he hit me first.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
There were a few other anger management issues
He was taking classes for a while.
by Flowing Willow on Jul 11, 2009 3:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Moala was not available when we selected in the 2nd round.
We would have had to trade up to get him as well. Plus Not only did we get Brown this year, but also Goodson. They were the package deal, in essence at least.
Will Parker
Brown was an insurance policy to the Pep problem.
He may have even added to his decision to stay.
Will Parker
Nobody has said that Brown doesn't have any more potential than being a situational pass rusher.
Does he need to bulk up more? Probably. But he was rated as high as a mid-first round prospect by many pundits. Further, the trade chart says that the picks we received should have cost us the #36 pick in the same draft, or the 4th pick in the 2nd round. Given we get to wait a year to give up a pick that should be in the mid-to-late 20s at earliest, I think it was a fair deal, unlike the raping the Eagles gave us for Otah.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice post Jaxon.
I agree with everything and thought that it was well wrtten. I do not see us keeping 5 DE with the way out roster is looking (2 FB and 3TE’s). Something has to give. It is a shame too, b/c I think H. Taylor may turn out to be a good rotational guy with a valuable expertise of rushing the passer.
Thanks for not going into detail about Pep. I am getting tired of hearing/reading/talking about him.
Will Parker
I don't think Taylor will ever have the strength and size to be a regular rotation player.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 10, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, the odds are not in his favor.
Who knows, he may get picked up by a 3-4 team eventually and be a solid special teamer and situational pass rusher.
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 11, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I think he'd fit better in that kind of system.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 11, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know if you want to change this on your depth chart...
But in camps, Brown has been running as the #2 at LE behind Brayton and Johnson has been the backup at RE behind Peppers.
You mention Brayton could be cut for cap space, but he’s actually under contract for an exceptionally cheap cap hit of $2.1 mil. Given $725K of that number is prorated bonuses we won’t get back, would we really be able to get anything better than what Brayton can offer for an extra $1.4 million?
Finally, Brinkley does have PS eligibility left for at least one more year.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
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