Is the Carolina Panthers Offense Smoke & Mirrors?
Andy Benoit, www.NFLTouchdown.com does a good job of defining both sides of the Great Jake Delhomme Debate:
Your view of the Carolina Panthers depends on your interpretation of their disastrous 33-13 home Divisional Round loss to the Arizona Cardinals last January. If you are in the camp that believes America witnessed merely a 12-4 team being struck down by quarterback Jack Delhomme's ill-timed career lowlight (in which he completed 22 of his 34 passes, but five of them to the wrong team), then you see this club as the favorite in the NFC South...But if you're in the camp that believes what happened in the playoffs was not an aberration but, rather, a culmination of that second half letdown, then you think John Fox's club will continue its trend of mediocrity between postseason appearances.
But then he takes a shot at the John Fox philosophy that a Pro Bowl QB is not needed to win a Super Bowl:
But the ultra conservative Fox has never thought his team needed a star quarterback in order to succeed. Fox views quarterbacks as only a moderately significant piece to his power-oriented offensive puzzle. But critics can lament that the Panthers really aren't that powerful on the ground. Yes, Williams and Stewart headlined a rushing attack that set a franchise record with 2,437 yards and 30 touchdowns last season. But their numbers were inflated by 60 runs of 10 yards or more. When it came to consistently moving the chains and controlling the tempo, Carolina was average (evidenced in their 18th-ranked third down offense)... This criticism of smoke and mirrors has also been applied to the defense...
So the offense is smoke and mirrors? Please don't forget many of those long runs you use to discredit the offense went for TD's. Yes the 3rd down percentage was too low (40%, 18th) but it seems the Panthers have brought more weapons into camp this season to help Jake in those situations. Even so, the Panthers had no trouble scoring down the stretch until the Cardinal debacle. The second half slide was with the defense, not the offense. Steve smith put up 1,400+ yards (3rd) and averaged more than 101 yds/game (#1). I'm sure I don't need to list yet again the running games success. I was thinking the run oriented offense was the opposite of smoke and mirrors. It's no secret the Panthers are going to try and run the ball down your throat, let's see if you can stop it. I'll watch.
Benoit does close with a good question:
The issue is not whether the Panthers can change in 2009, but whether their formula can work.
Let's see, Super Bowl winners that relied on a power running game, an opportunistic passing game and a stout defense? Hmmm...drawing a blank. Any help out there? lol
I don't think there is any question the formula will work; the question is will it work in Carolina? Will it work with this defensive scheme? Will it work with Delhomme at QB?
I think we all agree the formula can work but I think what we need is for this team to perfect the formula. The schedule and the division are too tough to rest on last year's record. The Panthers will have to up their game to repeat last years record but should they win enough to get to the playoffs that experience of tough games week in and week out may pay dividends.
If you want smoke and mirrors you might try David Copperfield re-runs, some Chris Angel's Mindfreak or maybe even trying to understand your cell phone bills. There's no trick to this Panther offense.
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That combination of power running, opportunistic passing and stout defense
is no guarantee of success. I’m looking at the last ten Super Bowls, here. None of the Rams or Patriots teams that made the Super Bowl could be classified in that way. Chicago, Carolina and Tennessee all got there and lost to “passing-friendly” teams.
Of course, the Ravens, the ’05 Steelers, the Bucs and the ’07 Giants all got there and won with variations on that formula.
So obviously it’s a good plan with a proven track record. And I feel good about our offense’s ability to hold up their end of things. But those four winning teams had really special defenses. And it’s our defense’s ability to be “stout” that concerns me the most. I’m looking forward to training camp so I can answer some of those questions for myself.
When do they put the pads on?
Its not from day one but I can’t seem to remember how long after its starts. A week maybe? I want to go after the pads are on, probably the weekend of the 14th or the following one.
What about you?
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Not sure when the pads go on.
JaTuck and I were thinking of coming down on the 12th for the Snyder Field practice. I love that smaller field, the practices are less wide-ranging, but you’re so much closer that it’s worth it. And it’s over early enough for us to get back to Raleigh at a decent time. But I don’t think that’ll be possible, so we’re talking now about what other day might work for our schedules.
I'll probably do a Saturday
The past two years I would come during the week by taking a day off but with a new job and not much vacation saved up…the weekend it is.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
A few TC questions:
1. How long are the practices, usually?
2. Is traffic bad afterward?
3. What is the best way to get there from Raleigh?
4. Is there any scheduled road work that anyone knows of between Raleigh and Charlotte/Spartansburg?
Thanks to anyone that can help! Go Panthers!!
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 30, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Answers
Practices are about 2 hours or so. No bad traffic usually except slightly when leaving the parking lot. 3. I40 West to 85S. Once in Spartanburg take I 585, its not far from 85. No roadwork that I know of
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Neither
it was an ill-timed lowlight for all parties involved.
by packpigskinfan25 on Jul 29, 2009 12:41 AM EDT reply actions
the formula
Our formula obviously works, but the formula was never the problem. It’s execution. The offense has to execute better. When you look at 3rd down percentage, I think it is important to look at average yards to go on 3rd down. It’s not as indicative of the rush offense competence when the average yards to go is more than 5. I don’t know the exact number, but the way this blog works, someone will have the answer soon.
Also, when I say execution, I think we have to also look at what failed because of mental errors, and not the plan. For example, how many perfectly called 3rd down plays failed due to dropped passes, overthrows, or penalties, or simply a missed blocking assignment? When we went to the Superbowl, we became the first ever team to win the conference championship game with zero turnovers and zero penalties. We can’t play to that level every game, but when you 200 yards rushing and 100 yards in penalties, you have ot factor both. Additionally, we have to look at the effectiveness of special teams. I think Fox has it right this year in terms of personnel and strategy, and it is up to the players to execute.
As for the whole smoke and mirrors question, I’m not interested. I just want us to reduce mistakes and win. And really, it’s reducing mistakes that wins games against better opponents. I think we will, and I think it translates into our first Superbowl win this year.
formula v execution
The defense was not stout, the QB then tried to do too much. and the tripod failed.
If the Defense can find itself again, and maybe Delhomme turns into Lt Checkdown instead of 89 being his first, second and fourth read, then things could turn out quite well.
by panthersnbraves on Jul 29, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Fox’s formula for winning is way out dated. For him to even think that you don’t need an allstar at the QB position shows how far in the stone age he is. That’s like saying an NBA team doesn’t need a great PG to succeed or a baseball team doesn’t need great pitchers to win. Why become a one trick pony on offense and just rely on the running game? The Panthers are in serious trouble this year and that Arz game was a culmination of all the errors in Delhomme. He’s had tunnel vision all season, throwing in double coverage to Smith all year, not checking his reads and it finally caught up to him. If the o-line starts to crumble with injuries(the interior d-line as well) its all down hill from there.
Yeah
Because Dan Marino has so many super bowls while Trent Dilfer never came close, right? I’m not arguing that you don’t want to have an all-star quarterback. I’m just saying, with Fox’s philosophy of establishing the run and you know, the small fact that we have a great offensive line and two amazing running backs we really don’t NEED Peyton Manning back there in this offense to be successful.
All you need in Fox's offense is a guy who can win
Delhomme is that guy, while someone like Eli Manning or Tony Romo, they have the stat power, but what about wins in pressure situations. Manning is known for his lack of composure, as for Romo, need I say more?
by Flowing Willow on Jul 30, 2009 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Culmination of a Second half letdown?
Whaaaat? Can someone explain to me how going 8-2 in the last 10 games, 4-1 in the last 5 is deemed a letdown? I know our defense was less than stellar during that period but our offense was playing exceptional. With the changes we have made on the defensive side of our coaching staff do people really expect that to continue over to the next year? I have my worries too but I’m not ready to admit that our defense will perform the same as they did during the 2nd half.
I was waiting for somone to bring that up
The Panthers went 3-1 in all four quarters of the season…The defense will be improved this year IMO
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
I agree
With the personel moves they made, I expect them better against the pass. Injuries and lack of DT depth down the stretch is what killed our run defense, IMO. We have the players to compete for a championship, but as always it comes down to injuries with our team. IMO.
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 30, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I still think that had Fox and Davidson actually followed the gameplan that was a surefire win during the regular season, we could have won that game. Obviously that gameplan was run the hell outta the ball.
Instead after a terrific opening series, getting a good run into the endzone, we ran the ball once on our next possesion, and got stuffed. After that stuffed run, I cannot recall us even running the ball 5 times the rest of the half, much less the entire game.
So instead of running it, we put the game into the hands of Delhomme on his birthday (which may have had something to do with it), while it is raining mind you. At the time I felt it was Delhomme’s fault that we lost that game. But the blame also needs to be placed on Fox and Davidson for not following what had worked the entire year, and going to a pass first offense instead of a run first offense.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
Yes
they should have anticipated the Cardinals aggressively attacking the run game and used that to their advantage. Quick openers, play action pass to the RB in the flat. They instead ran the same plays they had been running, both run and pass plays, those they ran against the Cards in the Reg season. The DRC INT comes to mind first as he completely anticipated that route to Smitty.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
correct
You guys are both right, but I do believe Jake has the skills to get the job done they asked of him. In the Raiders game, after the bye, he went 7 of 27 with 4 INTs. I think that the week off really hurt in the OAK game and the playoff game. Of course, you know I think D-Will should get a minimum of 20 touches a game, but who am I to know if 15 carries combined in the playoffs is not enough?
by usana_gaines on Jul 29, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
And our defensive game plan.
It was an all around horrible game. Coaches, players, and fans.
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 30, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
My 2 cents...
The panthers made a great move by releasing Ken lucas he lost us alot of games last year. i believe the injury from smith done something lucas never perform good after it. You ask if the panthers running game is for real. Yes, my predictions are that Stewart will have the big year . look at his rookie season-awesome considering he was starting second and carring less than half the balls. Our running game can beat an average team every time. Jake did cost us a couple of games last year for instance the minn game if jake would have protected the ball and took the loss we probably would have won. the arizona game was meant to be they was a great team that should have beat the steelers. If you was to ask 89 who he would rather have as QB im sure without hesitation say delhomme. so i think the panthers are for real and a dominating force this year. oh yeah heres 2 more cent i believe the reason carolina paid jake so much is a future investment to attract quarter backs to carolina. one more thing if the patriots are interested in the raiders DE draft pick that tells you it may be a good decision.
Why in every picture of John Fox
Does he look like he’s trying to prevent something from leaking out the left side of his mouth?
Did he become a Skoal man?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
LMAO
Never noticed it… Thanks for that! =)
by packpigskinfan25 on Jul 31, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I understand his comment about "but whether their formula can work"
We are completely built on big plays. If a team can double-triple-quadruple Smitty, and prevent DeAngelo’s 30+ yard runs, then what do we have left on offense? To remain competitive we would have to dink and dunk more like we did against the Chargers last season. The only problem is, with Smitty in the game would Jake ever dink and dunk instead of tossing up jump balls to Smitty? Which brings us full circle to the Great Jake Debate ;)
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
If Smitty is doubled,
then we have one-on-one match ups everywhere else AND only 7 in the box. With that said, if Smitty is triple or even quadruple teamed, then the defense is leaving 1 or 2 people uncovered OR they have < 7 in the box. I like any of those situations and percentages. Basically, anyone we play will not be able to stop it all (Smitty, DeAngelo’s 30+yard runs, etc) , as long as our o-line stays relatively healthy. IMO
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 30, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
It's happened before
How many times over the last 4 years have we seen teams stop Smitty, and completely disable our offense. The running game did add another winning element though.
However you don’t prevent 30+ yard runs by putting 7+ at the line of scrimmage. If Deangelo squirts through the line, that leaves no one in the secondary (where he is most dangerous) to stop him. Teams don’t need to stop him at the line of scrimmage because he’s not Stephen Davis like… getting you 4+ yards per carry.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
lol, squirt.
Maybe that’s a new nickname, Squirt and Smurf. : D
by Flowing Willow on Aug 1, 2009 2:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Smash and Squirt :)
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Runs and Squirts!
They could be sponsored by Taco Bell :)
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
If they stop him before he gets 5 yards, then they would have stopped him before getting 30+ yards.
Also, in reference to, “How many times over the last 4 years have we seen teams stop Smitty, and completely disable our offense.” Our running game is much better than it has ever been before. The combo of talent in our O-line and at RB are in the elite status in the NFL. Add in there Smitty, an elite WR, and the offense is lethal, unless we cannot execute.
Will Parker
The point is
You have 2 basic types of backs. Big power backs who give you 4+ yards per carry, but don’t often break off big runs. And smaller backs who are easier to stop at the line of scrimmage, but in space are hard to stop.
DeAngelo is the latter. Stacking the box is a waste because he’s not often going to punch through 3 consecutive downs anyways. BUT the few times he does, if he gets behind 7 guys then he’s going to the house.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I understand your point and respectfully disagree.
DeAngelo has quite a bit of power in him. He is not one of the “smaller backs who are easier to stop at the line of scrimmage, but in space are hard to stop.” He is head and shoulders above guys like Bush, Sproles, Dunn, etc. He is bigger than Jones-Drew, and he absolutely packs a punch. Is DeAngelo a S. Davis or Brandon Jacobs? By no means, he is more versatile. DeAngelo has a well rounded skill set. And yes, I would be 100% ok with him taking goal-line or short yardage carries. Shoot, Emmitt Smith was one of the best short yardage backs EVER and he was about 10 lbs lighter than DeAngelo, depending on what year you compare the 2.
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Aug 1, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Deangelo actually got quite a bit of goalline work last year
I should know, I had Stewart, lol. : )
by Flowing Willow on Aug 2, 2009 2:43 AM EDT up reply actions
All that is true about D-Will
but I still like the odds better with Stewart at the goal line.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Because there is a difference
Stewart has highlights from last year where he is not just breaking tackles, but dragging multiple defenders for like 10 yards. In the 2nd TB game DeAngelo stiff-arms Rhonde Barber for a TD, but in Stewart’s Rhonde stiff-arm highlight he grabs him by the chest and slams him to the ground… all in stride. That’s power!
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I agree that Stew is the more powerful RB.
I was just saying that DeAngelo is a VERY good option as a goal-line RB and that he is not in the mold of “smaller backs who are easier to stop at the line of scrimmage, but in space are hard to stop.”
Will Parker
Well first you have to get to the goal line
Without his big runs I don’t think Deangelo could power the ball from one endzone to the other… The way Jacobs did to us last year.
The difference is… Deangelo had holes to run through at the goal line. Jacobs met a wall of defenders and pushed them back 5 yards into the end zone.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Then look at the numbers
Add up his longest run from each game in 2008 and it totals 450 yards. Take those away and he averages 3.9 yards per carry… which is Foster’s career average.
I agree with you that he is a better every down back than Bush, Sproles or Dunn. But my point was that he is not going to eat up the clock, getting you 4+ yards EVERY attempt… which is what a power running game is.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
So we agree that Williams is not a Brandon Jacobs or Jamal Lewis type of RB.
My sole point was that DeAngelo brings more to the party than a “small back who is easier to stop at the line of scrimmage, but in space is hard to stop.”
Will Parker
Agreed
But he’s still not going to get yards if the line doesn’t give him a lane.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Like Parker said,
you can’t stop both. You have to contain either one, stack the box and let Smith burn you, or double him and let D-Will break off the occasional 30+ run. Throw Stewart in there and you have a deadly trio. The way we will be beat next year, aside from injury, is by forcing us into a shootout, like Arizona did in the playoffs. People are going to come out firing vs our pass D, so we had better be ready to hold.
by Flowing Willow on Jul 31, 2009 8:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t agree with his point saying our rushing attack isn’t as good as it looks by taking away all of our long runs. Isn’t that what makes a good rushing attack? The ability to break long runs for scores or scoring opportunities? If you took away all of Adrian Peterson’s long runs he’d look pretty mediocre too, but you never hear anyone saying he’s not part of a great rushing attack. I think that’s a pretty ridiculous statement trying to make some sort of point. I’m flabbergasted. How can you point to a stat that says you broke the most long runs in the league and use that as a reason you have a poor rushing attack. Shouldn’t it mean that you have the most explosive running game in the league? Ridiclous. Our poor third down play was more to do with our passing attack than our rushing attack. On third and short we did a pretty good job of running the ball for a first down. Especially in the red zone. Our big weakness is third and 4 or more because of our mediocre passing game.
He's comparing to Stephen Davis/Brandon Jacobs like running
When you break off a big run you maybe score a TD quick, but you also put your defense quickly back on the field. In 03’ our strength was in power running… getting 4 ypc without a lot of big runs to skew the average. This chews up the clock and gives your defense a lot of time on the bench to rest, and preventing the opposing offense from having many opportunities.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I've seen D-Will get the tough yards consistently
nearly every run he ran last year was a gain, or so it seemed… : D Stewie was the same way, he is a beast to tackle. I think we’ll be more consistent on the ground this season, but like our pass D, teams will be gunning for the run, which is a big reason of why Jake will get 20+ TD’s. : )
by Flowing Willow on Aug 1, 2009 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree
I see our running game still being elite, maybe even tops in the league in yards, but I am not expecting as many BIG plays from them. The passing game had several plays stop inside the opponents 5 yard line. I see Jake getting more TD’s this year, thus taking some goal-line TD’s away from the running game. IMO
Will Parker
He tied Jim Brown's record!
DeAngelo had all kinds of 30+ yard runs… he had six TD runs of 30 yards or longer which tied Jim Brown’s NFL record! It’s simple math to understand that 3 runs of 0 yards, 0 yards and 15 yards… unfairly represents 5 ypc.
Now don’t get me wrong… I dread the day when they let him go for Stewart. I’m just pointing out that a big play quick scoring offense does have consequences.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Consequences like pounding the Buc's (and Ronde Barber's spinal column) into submission?
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Aug 1, 2009 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Or going 90 yards in 4 plays
on the ground!!! I don’t care how you’ve done the rest of the game, if you do that you earn respect from the defense.
by Flowing Willow on Aug 2, 2009 2:45 AM EDT up reply actions
When you are playing Brees or Warner
I would much rather have a 10 minute drive for a TD than 2 min drive for a TD. Didn’t we just learn in the playoffs what a high powered offense does to you when you don’t put points on the board? Keep those guys off the field and wear down their defense.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I agree 100%.
Although the main factor that you are not mentioning is how our O-line will be pounding the other team into submission. The main pounding the defense takes is from the O-line. That combined with 2 elite talents at RB who are staying fresh is absolutely a power running game.
Will Parker

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