CSR Fan Poll: Michael Vick to Carolina?
by Jaxon on Jul 20, 2009 6:54 PM EDT
141 comments
As teams are starting to get out in front of a potential re-instatement of QB Michael Vick by declaring 'no interest', there are also people like Si.com's Jim Trotter that agree Vick should get a second chance:
Michael Vick deserves opportunity to play in NFL again - Jim Trotter - SI.com
If the NFL can give second chances to gamblers (Art Schlichter), drug traffickers (Tamarick Vanover and Bam Morris) and those who commit vechicular homicide while driving drunk (Leonard Little) -- yes, I consider killing someone while driving drunk to be murder, even if the law doesn't -- it should give Vick the opportunity to resume his career. It's true that none of the aforementioned transgressions took place on Goodell's watch, but it's also accurate that none of those players, prior to reinstatement, was punished as severely as Vick.
I'm in agreement with Trotter as I think Vick has paid his retribution to society. Yet I can also understand those who think he doesn't deserve another chance; its hard to understand someone being so cruel. Even if you think he does deserve a chance is there a team willing to chance the potential PR nightmare? Vick may be toxic for a while but as the season progresses might a floundering team take a chance? Might such a team consider the amount of PR such a signing might bring, even if it is the wrong kind? As spectacular a runner Vick was I didn't consider him a team leader. Could he spark a lagging offense? Would the Panthers consider signing Vick? It does not seem likely.
Trotter continues with a nice close:
Vick's actions were repulsive and worthy of strong punishment. However, if he truly has accepted that what he did was wrong, Goodell should heed the words President Bush said in his 2004 State of the Union address while discussing legislation to help convicted criminals re-enter society.
"America," he said, "is the land of the second chance." At last check Vick is still an American.
We won't have the answer until he is actually re-instated by commish Goodell which I would expect to happen at some point now that Vick has finished his sentence. The only remaining question after that is whether any team will roll the dice on him.
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Heck. No.
I am just going to ignore the obvious off the field problems and say the last thing the Panthers need is a quarterback who struggles in throwing the football and hasn’t played in the NFL over the past two years. No matter what may follow, he is not an upgrade over Jake. He can run the football and is exciting to watch. That’s about all he has going for him in my book. His completion percentage always stunk and he is nowhere close to being the right QB for this team.
That doesn’t even factor in the off the field problems.
For the wildcat!
I agree he is not an upgrade over Jake. But I am a little surprised you guys wouldn’t take him at a minimum price. Just use him in the wildcat every now and then, maybe pair him with DeAngelo… but have a 3rd short pass option as well. You can’t defend that… It would cause all kinds of havoc!
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 20, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
...which is why so many of the teams to make deep runs in the playoffs used it, right...?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I didn't say base the whole offense around it
So I assume you are completely anti-wildcat???
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 23, 2009 3:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm not...
But it’s a gimmick offense and once a good defense sees it once, they’re probably gonna stop it. See the way the Patriots and Ravens took care of the Dolphins late last year.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
But the Dolphins didn't have a pass option
At least not with Pennington out. Imagine if DeAngelo could deliver a pass as well as a starting QB. Wouldn’t that add a huge element?
Of course that’s sounding less like Wildcat… lol
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 23, 2009 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually...
Ronnie Brown went to pass four times out of the Wildcat last year. But, another problem…if we’re asking Williams to focus on something like a bootleg pass, isn’t that taking away from his primary focus…being a running back?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions
We were talking about Vick
Why would DeAngelo be focused on a bootleg pass? And I consider Vick to be a much greater passing threat than Ronnie Brown.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Actually...
Ronnie Brown’s career QB rating is 116.5
Michael Vick’s career QB rating is 75.2
All kidding aside..
Vick himself was a gadget offense, I don’t see the need to try and fit him into a wildcat. What you’re basically suggesting is using Vick the same way the Falcons used Vick.
by James The Aussie on Jul 24, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
That's why I said it was sounding less like Wildcat
Vick was at his best when ATL had a great running game, and the run vs pass was completely unpredictable. But we wouldn’t be using him like ATL because we DO have a QB that can throw down field. We would be solely using him as a gadget as where ATL had to rely on him as a QB
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 24, 2009 4:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
"Imagine if DeAngelo could deliver a pass as well as a starting QB"
That’s why I was talking about DeAngelo. And Vick isn’t a passing threat at all. Never was.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
You are missing the point
We have a QB, Vick would not replace Jake. But Vick is a far better passer than most RBs… It’s not about relying on him to make all the throws… It’s the occasional unpredictability that creates the threat.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 24, 2009 4:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm not even interested in the on-the-field stuff.
Sure, he can run, he’s a middle-of-the-pack passer, whatever.
Let’s examine the totality of the evidence for the off-the-field stuff.
FIrst, he killed dogs in ways that go beyond any sense of decency. Hell, even bow hunters who take their kids hunting won’t let their kids use a bow to go after a buck until they can pull enough weight that they can execute a full pass-through shot. Then you go over and finish off the deer. It’s just a respect for the life you’re taking. It’s not grabbing and holding underwater until it stops moving. It’s not grabbing it by the legs and slamming it on the ground repeatedly until it stops moving. It’s not electrocution via car battery.
So, sure, he killed animals in violent and horrific ways. But that’s only the start of the discussion. He lied to the Commissioner’s face, repeatedly. He blew off meetings where he was an invited guest, given the opportunity to speak before members of congress, deciding simply not to go. He’s a prima donna with an entourage who enables his worst traits. You’ve never heard the term “coachable” applied to him. In fact, Dan Reeves was fired after a season in which they feuded over whether Vick was milking his ankle injury, with legitimate debate over whether Vick’s just too soft. He flips the dirty birds to his own fans when they start to boo him. And he travels through airports with weed, sorry “jewelry”, in a secret compartment in his water bottle, which you’re not allowed to bring into airports anyway.
I’m sorry, people. This guy’s an idiot. Outside of the fact that he’s a horrible human being and deserved every second he spent in prison, the more important fact is that he is a grade A, first class imbecile. He has wasted his off-the-charts talent to a degree that few have in the history of the league.
If he never plays another down in the NFL, I think that’s just fine. The league is doing great without him.
by r3 on Jul 20, 2009 8:05 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
So I take it you are against it. I think I have the on the field stuff taken care of and I agree in part with what you wrote. I do believe in second chances.
by bengoodfella on Jul 20, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe in second chances, too.
And I think Mike Vick has had second chances offered to him over the years. I’m not entirely sure this qualifies as a second chance anymore. And I’m definitely not convinced that Vick is the type of person who can recognize that there are a finite amount of chances that anyone can get.
I definitely agree with everything you’ve said though. And I think he should, eventually, be reinstated. And I think that every team should examine the totality of his record, and decide that it’s in everyone’s best interests if he remains an unsigned free agent.
by r3 on Jul 21, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Vick and 2nd chances
Vick had no criminal record outside of minor traffic violations before the dog fighting incident. He has otherwise been a model citizen. The same applies to Donte Stallworth as far as the law is concerned.
Model citizen eh?
I know that at my job if I flipped off one of our clients I would be looking for new work right now.
What about being investigated because a vehicle registed to me was used to traffic marijuana?
I know that at my job if I was a convicted felon who just got released from prison I wouldn’t be considered to get my job back.
Donte Stallworth was not convicted of a felony, and in the investigation it was deemed that although intoxicated, the pedestrian ran across the street not at an intersection in the attempt to catch a bus. Yes, Stallworth should have reacted in time but there was fault on both parties.
Vick ran an illegal, felony carrying operation for years and then lied about it when questioned.
Society can give Vick his second chance, but the NFL owes him nothing. His life can continue, but I think he has forfeited his right to be an NFL athlete and should have thought about those possibilities before being a criminal.
by James The Aussie on Jul 21, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Here's an idea:
We should ship Vick (and all criminals) to some remote continent… some enormous island where they can’t muck everything up…
by the bomb dot com on Jul 21, 2009 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I get it....
Australian joke… very clever. Of course it did end up creating the greatest athletic nation on earth per capita.. so maybe it’s not a bad idea.
by James The Aussie on Jul 21, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Touchy!
My Australian friends all get prickly about that- I’m just busting balls.
What is the point of banning Vick? I just don’t see how some BS moralistic chest-thumping by a sports league predicated on extreme violence makes one bit of difference in the end. If it’s the illegal interstate gambling they want to hold against him as the reason, I disagree with it, but I can at least understand.
For the record, I dislike Goodell’s “Judge/Jury/Executioner” style- it just seems arbitrary.
So let him play. If some team wants to take a chance, fine. They’ll get burned, not by his criminal behavior or evil presence, but by his lack of talent at the QB position. He’s too frail to hold up at RB, and I’m skeptical of his ability to make the change to WR.
Caveat Emptor.
by the bomb dot com on Jul 22, 2009 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I forgot to add
Wallaby humping and koala wrangling don’t count as athletic endeavors.
by the bomb dot com on Jul 22, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't know about Wallaby humping or koala wrangling...
but I do know that for a country of 20 million people we have:
- 2 active NFL players
- 4 players attached to NBA teams
- 12 active MLB players
Not to mention the summer olympics…. if you look at the medal tally per capita since the beginning of the modern olympics:
- USA: 5.2 medals per 10 million citizens
- China: 1.7 medals per 10 million citizens
- Russia: 3.8 medals per 10 million citizens
- Australia: 143.8 medals per 10 million citizens
AUSSIE, AUSSIE, AUSSIE! Oi, Oi, Oi!
by James The Aussie on Jul 22, 2009 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions
That is a good cheer when drinking I will agree!!
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Blood-y Auzzies!
Al-ways cheat-ing!
by the bomb dot com on Jul 23, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions
4 players attached to NBA teams???
What does that mean? They use Velcro or something?
You don’t live there currently do you? My wife is from S. America. We have talked about moving there… but not sure how I would watch football.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 23, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it means that their rights are held, whether they're on the roster or not.
And he lives in G’boro, I believe.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I live in Greensboro right now.
As for being attached… Procton hit the nail on the head. They are:
- Andrew Bogut (Bucks)
- Nathan Jawai (Mavericks)
- Luke Schenscher (Blazers)
- Patrick Mills (Blazers)
No football games are broadcast except for the Superbowl, and due to the time difference you watch the superbowl at 10 a.m. on a Monday morning.
But, you can always learn to love rugby!
by James The Aussie on Jul 24, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Wait a minute...
You sure about Schenscher? Being signed to the summer league team doesn’t count.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Blazers still hold his rights from 2007...
he’s going to go back to Australia though to play in the NBL.
by James The Aussie on Jul 24, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
It is a cool game
But what about AFL football, you watch that?
by Flowing Willow on Jul 25, 2009 5:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Absolutely,
more of a rugby fan (most people from Sydney are) but I love the Sydney Swans.
by James The Aussie on Jul 25, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, don't know the teams
I just have a rudimentary understanding of how to play, it’s somewhat of a cross between soccer and rugby, except the ball is larger and bounces worse than a football. Points are scored either by catching it in a certain zone near the goalposts, or kicking it through the goalposts. It’s on quite a bit here in SA.
by Flowing Willow on Jul 26, 2009 4:44 AM EDT up reply actions
And what if now Vick did commercials, appearances, etc...
promoting the end of dog-fighting? He could actually be a positive force in this regard if done properly.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Absolutely...
I agree he could be a positive force if the commercials and appearances made it seem like he believed what he did was wrong.
I just can’t help but think Vick doesn’t believe he did anything wrong other than associate with too many guys who talked and get caught for what he was did.
PSAs could definately help him recover some of his image, as could him donating his 1st season salary to the ASPCA if he returned to the league. I think Vick paid his debt and deserves to play football, make a living and regain endorsements. I just don’t think he should be allowed to do it in the NFL.
by James The Aussie on Jul 22, 2009 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions
this
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Donte Stallworth was involved in a once-off accident.
The guy hit a dude jaywalking. Yes, the fact that he was driving drunk is certainly an aggravating factor, but he wasn’t speeding, he reported it immediately, and he faced the music. Vick was involved in a perpetual cycle of activity that goes beyond cruelty and disdain to life. When given opportunities to own up to it, he chose not to. He only ultimately flipped in an attempt to get a lighter sentence.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
You are right on it, homeboy.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Excellent commentary.
rec’d
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Yall never been to the hood right?
Everybody gambles, everbdoy flips th dirty bird, everybody smokes da ganga, and peeta dont come around. Vicks homegrown. He dont know any better. But he wont make the same mistake twice.
And wasnt the Superbowl supose to go through Carolina in 2006? I think I remember that “idiot” being the first one that year sayin “I dont think so”. But he aint all that right?
He won't make the same mistake twice?
Yeah, I’d hope not.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 25, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
QB future dream scenario
doesnt include Vick or Favre or any other notable names.
I just hope Jake doesnt suck (too much) this year – although I am a supporter of him – and then we draft Matt Grothe (out of South Florida) next April. He’s mobile (like Vick) and what this team needs in the QB future, just not til next draft.
Looks like he is predicted to be a 7th round pick
That’s not a typical QB of the future, but a likely round where we might see Fox take a QB.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 20, 2009 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
He has paid his debt.
That said… he will not end up in Charlotte. The front office likes character guys, Vick is not one of those guys. Besides, there is one hell of a dual threat QB coming out of college we can get in next years draft cheap (probably in later rounds)
For those who aren’t App State fans, I present to you Armanti Edwards
He will be a senior this year, have a look at some of his accomplishments…
2006- True Freshman. Leads Appalchian to 2nd consecutive national championship and SoCon championship (FCS, I-AA, whatever), wins 2006 soCon Freshman of the year. Was never sacked entire season.
Passing- 60.9 comp% 2251 yds 15 td 10 int 140.72 rating
Rushing- 1153 yds 15td 6.1 ypc
2007- Sophomore. Leads App to 3rd consecutive national championship and SoCon championship and a victory over Michigan in the season opener.
Passing- 66.7 comp% 1948 yds 17 td 7 int 159.34 rating
Rushing- 1588 yds 21tds 6.7 ypc
2008- Junior. Leads App to 4th consecutive SoCon title, wins Walter Payton award and SoCon player of the year.
Passing- 64.1 comp% 2902yds 30td 9 int 170.19 rating
Rushing- 941 yds 11tds 4.1 ypc
2009- ???? but will sure as hell break some career records.
He is small (6’0" 190lbs.), even for a college QB, certainly for an NFL QB, but has obvious talent. He may not be a permanent installation as a QB somewhere, but is certainly a dual threat guy, and can play WR. Think of him as an Antawan Randle El type
I went to App and love Armanti Edwards of course. If he played in D-1 I would guess he would be on the list for Heisman candidates.
by bengoodfella on Jul 20, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey made the list before 2008
Which is a pretty good honor for an FCS guy, but hell. he won the “FCS Heisman” by winning the Walter Payton award. Steve McNair did that too.
A little football p0rn for you guys...
The best image of Armanti…
Yes that is him jumping over 2 UM players into the end zone at the Big House.
SOme highlight reels…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8y7iQu3y9g
^ 3:00 mark, that is a throw against some tough competition that he can make consistently, and is an NFL caliber throw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9RZt-Y2F9Q
^ this game is referred to by App Fans as “The Armanti Edwards show” it was a semi-final game before our 3rd straight national title. Armanti put up 7 TDs in this one, and 313 yards rushing.
Umm...
I’m sorry, but Edwards ain’t gonna make it as an NFL QB. Far better tiny QBs who can’t throw pro routes have come and gone before him.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I liked it.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
No, Never, Nyet, Negative........
My personal choice of answers wasn’t on the list. If Vick becomes a Panther……..I’ll no longer be a Panther fan……….and will, in fact, back everyone against them. That’s how strongly I resent the thought of such a thug being our QB. If the front office sees fit to bring him in; they’d better be ready for mass losses in fan support……….and the revenue that comes with it.
No, No, No
We don’t need another crime/troublesome play to reignite an era that is over in Carolina; the era to which I am refering is that of Ray Carruth, Fred Lane, among others in trouble with the law. Of course Lane was traded then murdered but still he has to be in that category of troublesome talent. But Vick, no f&%@! way !!!! Playing prison football for a couple of years doesn’t keep you in NFL shape. Only fits I can see would be Detriot Lions always willing to take on a loser or the Raiders.
In Carolina no way, We have Jake/McCown/Moore !! We are set at the QB position an if we need it we can sign Cantwell off the P.S. which is where he will be after the preseason is over.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Jul 20, 2009 10:56 PM EDT reply actions
Fred Lane does NOT belong in that list!
Fred Lane was a likable, hard-working, simple-minded guy who was gullible and definitely wasn’t the sharpest tool in the shed. He made his fair share of football-related mistakes (missing flights, dancing during a blowout loss, etc.). But his “problem” status arises from the fact that he married a horrible woman who unloaded a shotgun into his chest while their children watched.
Fred Lane was a victim of a bad person. Rae Carruth was a bad, bad person. Neither of them are walking the streets anymore, but for very different reasons.
BUT! Your point holds, we’ve had the only current player sentenced to a long prison term for heinous crimes. We do not need to add the second player sentenced to a lengthy prison term.
eh....
Nah.
I see him being a good fit as backup, or RB… but I dont see the franchise ever signing a guy like Vick
I honestly see him going to SanFran. I think Mike Singletary would be the perfect coach/mentor/father figure that Vick needs. They need an offensive threat something bad!
The only doubts I have are all the ultra-liberals in the SanFran area raising absolute hell and becoming a nightmare for the organization.
by packpigskinfan25 on Jul 21, 2009 12:27 AM EDT reply actions
God, PETA would have a friggin' army.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Those nutjobs would burn the place down!
And that’s coming from someone who considers himself something of an animal proponent and who’s married to an SPCA activist. PETA’s full of crazy people.
by r3 on Jul 23, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Here's my two cents on the issue
We don’t need Vick, nor will we get him, for one, we can’t afford him, for two, it’s not a Furney move. That said, supposing the stars align with the planets, the moon, the sun, and other solar bodies and we sign Vick, I would not be that bummed out. He has amazing talents, if he can get back into shape, then bring him on, I remember how the Falcons tortured us with him on the roster. How do you think they would like a taste of that? He has paid his debt to society, as cruel as his crime was, it’s nothing to other crimes that have been perpetrated. In my hometown of Mooresville, a man broke into a house where a family that went to my church lived, a family I knew personally. Matthew Stewart, does anyone remember reading about him in the papers or online? Anyways, his wife Angel woke up, saw a man standing at the foot of the bed. He said get up, she grabbed their baby who was sleeping beside them and ran. He shot her in the arm, Matt lunged, and was fighting with the guy when he was shot in the chest. He was killed instantly. This man was also suspected to be the Gaffney serial killer, who had broken into other peoples houses and killed everyone inside, link here http://www.charlotteobserver.com/597/story/826004.html. Their other two children were sleeping over at a friends house. By Matt lunging and fighting back, he possibly saved his wife and kid who were still in the house. Now compare this crime to Vick’s wrongdoing. There wasn’t nearly half the backlash, part of it is that fact that Vick was a professional athlete, but another part is that our society has grown to value saving the whales over saving human life. It’s gotten so bad, that when a fisherman clubs a baby seal for it’s pelt he is vilified, but when a mother decides that a baby is too difficult to raise and kills it, nothing much is made about it. Sorry about the rant, that’s just what I see with Michael Vick.
Not a fair comparison.
I’m sorry this family was attacked and lost their father, I truly am, but your points are completely wrong. This isn’t a societal de-sensitivity issue, it’s just not.
Comparing a local tragedy where a father’s killed to a situation where one of the most high-profile personalities in the nation, the first overall pick in the most popular sport, there’s just no question which one’s going to get more coverage. If Mike Vick had broken into someone’s home and massacred a family, the coverage would have been even more extreme. Look at the coverage that Steve McNair received when he was killed, or the coverage of Sean Taylor’s murder. But there’s a finite life span of these stories because once the funeral’s over, there’s nothing more to add to it.
Also, I don’t want you to keep on with the misconception that we as a society value animal life more than human life. Collectively, we enact laws to reflect our values. When someone does evil things to an animal, we’re all shocked because of the abuse of innocents, but that shock (which is real and legitimate, don’t get me wrong) is put into context because you can’t serve more than a year or two in prison for abuse of animals. If the same thing is done to human beings, we are all shocked by the death of innocents, and that is accurately reflected by the fact we will put the murderer in prison for life, or have him executed.
Society’s head is screwed on straight. The media is a funhouse mirror that reflects our oddest bits back at us, but that’s not who we are. It’s out laws and our relationships and our community who define what we are.
This is not backed up by recent court sentencing...
These are facts:
Michael Vick intentionally killed an indeterminate amount of dogs and ran an illegal gambling operation.
Donte Stallworth unintentionally killed a human being, but under circumstances he should have never put himself in (DUI).
Points worth mentioning in both cases:
Michael Vick- Lied to police, uncooperative with authorities, drug infraction while on probation awaiting trial, seemingly forced remorse, fully conscious of his own actions.
Donte Stallworth- Called police himself to report accident, fully cooperative, genuinely remorseful, gave a substantial amount of money to victims family without any kind of legal intervention. Victim partially responsible for running across a busy avenue in the dark and outside of any kind of crosswalk.
Niether player had any criminal record entering their respective cases.
Sentencing
Michael Vick- Plead Guilty. 2 years in federal prison, served just over one year, spent remaining term in house arrest and in a halfway house, 3 additonal years probation. indeterminate amount of community service. Prosecution only recommended 1 year in prison.
Donte Stallworth- Plead guilty. 30 days in county jail, released one week early. 2 years house arrest, 8 years probation, 1000 hours community service. he faced a possible 15 years.
Judge for yourselves if we are devaluing human life or not. I can’t say i disagree with the ruling in either case. Stallworth did everything he could to make it right to the victims family and also never faltered in his cooperation with law enforcement. Given his status as a first time offender, and someone who is clearly not a danger to society, his prison sentence was paltry. Some would argue that it was ridiculous, I would argue that we should save room in our jail cells for people who really are dangerous criminals. Make people who are not do lots of community service, and stay off our taxpayer dollars.
But here is what it boils down to… We put a man in jail for 2 years for killing some dogs, and we put a man in jail for 30 days for killing a human?
That human was partly at fault...
he did J-Walk and ran across the street to catch a bus. It was horrible that happened and while it could have been avoided if Stallworth was sober, there is still a certain degree of responsibility on the part of the pedestrian.
Vick’s sentence wasn’t for just ‘killing some dogs’… he ran a CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION… why do people fail to see that?
by James The Aussie on Jul 21, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
that's true.
Some people fail to see that part of the sentencing was due to charges relating to the gambling ring, and just focus on the dogs.
All interesting points by both you and James
But it really comes down to the question of intent. And in that light, your comparison is very, very wrong.
If Vick had accidentally hit a dog with his car, he would have suffered no legal consequences of any kind, unless he’d been drunk at the time. Of course, he’d have had no legal requirement to contact the police if he’d simply hit a dog, so he could have avoided the DUI completely.
But, like James said, he didn’t accidentally kill a dog. He killed a lot of dogs in the course of running a criminal gambling organization during the totality of his adult life.
The only player who intentionally killed another person was Rae Carruth, and he’s in jail for a long, long time.
*POSSIBLY could have been avoided...
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Stallworth: Unintentionally killed a NEGLIGENT human being
Further…these crimes are different. One is a felony, not merely because of the cruelty to animals, but because of the interstate gambling issues. One is a misdemeanor treated as such because of a lack of deliberate and willful intent on the part of the defendant. Further, the only reason Vick ever plead guilty was in hopes of gaining a lighter sentence. Stallworth was remorseful and cooperative from the start.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
This is nothing I didn't say in my post
However, aren’t most all DUI related deaths unintentional? Negligence is the issue at hand, driving drunk is dangerous, and can get someone else killed. In this case, we have grounds to say that the fault rests on both parties. But, we know that Stallworth would have been acquitted of any wrong doing had he been sober at the time of the incident, and there is also a chance that he would have been able to avoid hitting the victim.
And, I did also say in my post that I agreed with both rulings, however if you look at the individual deaths it would appear that a dogs life was valued above that of a humans.
I don't agree.
It’s not about a measure of life vs. life, particularly given that that’s not even the only crime Vick was accused and convicted of.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
Wasn’t he also charged with perjury? I thought that charge had one of the biggest impacts on his sentence? I maybe wrong.
Will Parker
by WillParker81 on Jul 26, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Not quite.
The final charge he plead guilty to was a federal dog fighting conspiracy felony, but following that guilty plea, he failed both a drug test and a polygraph, which the judge cited in giving him more than the minimum sentence for having not taken as much responsibility as he could have..
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
You have a point
I can’t compare the shooting and the dog-fighting because they are on totally different scales. But I can compare Vicks crime to others like Stallworth and Little. Stallworth got 23 days in jail for killing a human being, Vick got a year in a federal prison, another year in a halfway house, and an indefinite suspension. Little got 8 games suspended and 90 days in jail. Now I think there is something wrong when a dog killer gets 2 years of confinement while a drunk killer gets 90 days. While it is true their attitudes are all different, the only way this sentence should have ended up the way it did is if the victims were convicted terrorists, and if Vick made a certain breed of dog endangered (possibly an overstatement) I can’t change the sentence, what’s done is done, but it is clear that society thinks that the amount of dogs killed by Vick is more heinous than a man dying because someone paid millions couldn’t call a cab. We personally may not, but our society does.
by Flowing Willow on Jul 21, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
You are still only choosing to look at the dog killing...
Which was only one element of the crime. Along with running a criminal organization, illegal gambling, impeding a criminal investigation and contempt of court (for the positive drug test while he was on bail).
Stallworth was co-operative, his victim was partly to blame and his victim’s family wrote the judge for a reduced sentence after he gave them financial support (which was not court ordered or part of a plea deal)
One man made a horrible decision for one night and got behind the wheel (an insanely common crime) and showed remorse for his actions and pleaded guilty.
One man funded a criminal enterprise and showed no remorse until he couldn’t avoid the sentence.
Tell me who needed 2 years in prison more?
by James The Aussie on Jul 21, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
Oh, and Vick didn’t simply fund said enterprise. He was an active and willing participant.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Do you also remember how well he was contained by the end of his run in Atlanta?
The Davis spy plan worked very well. In his last four games against us with Davis on the roster, the Falcons went 1-3 by a combined score of 84-40, and Vick went 51-101 for 535 yards with 2 TDs and 5 INTs while only rushing for 107 yards and 0 TDs on 16 carries.
As to your other points…I don’t think there’s anybody who suggests that the deliberate killing of humans is equivalent or less than killing animals. The criminal involved will certainly get a harsher sentence than Vick did if convicted. But the facts remain that Vick and his crimes are going to be talked about because he was at one point the highest-paid player in football, a man with millions of dollars in endorsement deals who was viewed as one of the faces of the league.
Oh…and mothers that kill live children are prosecuted as murderers. Aborting a parasitic fetus does not equate.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
IYO
IMO, a fetus is just as alive as a person.
And I’m not just talking about Vick, I’m talking about the headline “Save the Rainforest”, when in an ad at the bottom it says, “Get an Abortion. It’s Quick. It’s Easy. It’s Risk-Free.”
by Flowing Willow on Jul 23, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
...what headline?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I have no idea what he's talking about either, but it doesn't matter.
The point is SO not about abortion, which we could argue until the cows come home and exactly zero minds would be changed on the subject.
Of course, we’re NOT going to have that argument here, because this is a football discussion. End of topic.
Now, back to football. MP, good point about having contained Vick. Tampa’s use of Brooks to do the same thing was integral in shutting down his mobility over the last couple of his playing years, and lots of teams (us included) learned from that.
by r3 on Jul 23, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
BTW I agree, we should stick to football
You guys are awful listeners! ; D
While some teams could contain Vick, not all could, Atlanta for one. Who do they have as a fast spy backer?
by Flowing Willow on Jul 24, 2009 5:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Well...
It’s partially because he’s really a safety they’re playing at LB, but Coy Wire’s times from the combine in the short shuttle and 3-cone drills still rank among the fastest ever recorded there. Also, Curtis Lofton’s probably not as fast as Beason or Davis, but he’s not slow, either.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Somehow I knew you'd take that literally
Metaphor, for the publicity both receive, by the way, I have seen that headline before, forgive me if I don’t remember the name of every newspaper I’ve seen.
by Flowing Willow on Jul 24, 2009 5:46 AM EDT up reply actions
he wouldn't play
Vick wouldn’t get on the field if we did sign him. The players would not respond to him and I think they would be insulted if we tried to get him in on some trick plays. When Vick is on the field, other players don’t work as hard. A big part of our success last season was Jake’s leadership. People believe in him and will work for him. Is it a coincidence that all of a sudden Roddy White learned how to catch the ball when another QB got there? VIck is a game winner by himself, and extremely talented. I would take him easily over Moore or McCown, but our guys respond to Jake’s leadership, even when he’s floating ducks to the defense.
White didn't learn to catch...
He suddenly had a QB who could make an accurate pass downfield of more than 8 yards. Why do you think Alge Crumpler always looked so great?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
YES YES YES YES YES!
Mike Vick in Carolina Blue. That’s what I’m talking about. Sign him now! Don’t let this incredible talent pass you by.
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three.
Elayne Boosler
LOL
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
This is a horrific idea on every level.
Where do I begin with this? Let me start by saying that my personal opinion is that he should be permenantly banned from the NFL. Convicted felons are excluded from many job opportunities and can’t vote in elections but they should be allowed to be in a position of influence on youth and make millions of dollars? Furthermore, he blantantly obfuscated the truth and lied to his employer. So, I think a lifetime ban is in order and Goodell needs to make the move Tagliabue should have made with Leonard Little.
That being said, as a football move it is horrible also. Let’s face it, Vick was an incredibly average and mediocre QB at best. As an athlete he was second to none, as a gimmick in gadjet plays he worked great, but as a leader he had no tools. So, you take those factors add being out of football for 2 years and you have a recipe for failure.
If there is one thing that we have learnt from Jake Delhomme it is that the Panthers need a stern voiced leader at QB, Jake holds everything together. When Jake is out the Panthers are a different team. Steve Smith plays with less fire, the O-Line don’t protect quite as well and the defense takes plays off. Jake commands a high degree of respect in the locker room and the players love him for it, Vick could not obtain this same level of respect.
You really think Vick would be happy to be used as nothing more as a wildcat QB? I understand that the wildcat is the flavor of the month, but I think it is a flash in the pan scheme that wont really have legs.
Finally, from a financial situation signing Vick is corporate suicide, especially in a small market. During an economic downturn sponsors are hard to come by already, how many would back out of deals if Vick came to town? They wouldn’t want to be associated with the furor that a Vick signing would bring, or a backlash from people vehemently opposed to Vick.
by James The Aussie on Jul 21, 2009 10:32 AM EDT reply actions
Right Place, Wrong Time
I personally think NC would be more forgiving thatnother areas of Vick’s off the field issues considering how much dog fighting goes on in the state. Although it would be nice to see him in a Panthers jersey instead of running away from a Panthers jersey, I think it would be counter productive to bring him in. I hope he’s successful where ever he ends up unless its with the Saints or the Bucs.
What does that even mean?
Dog fighting is illegal in NC… just because illegal dogfighting occurs doesn’t mean we’d be magically be more forgiving to Vick.
Using that logic…. “More murders happen in New York than other states, so I’m sure the Giants would be more forgiving if they picked up a convicted murderer to play LB”
What an obscenely ludicrious statement.
by James The Aussie on Jul 21, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, you know...
A lot of meth gets used here. Look at how much Jeremy Mayfield has been embraced by the NC-based NASCAR community.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I believe
Despite some of the hate coming from the comments, it’s obvious that majority of the fans would like to have Vick on our team. I personally think he’s served his time, and he deserves a second chance. If losing all of his money and spending 2 years in prison early in his career isn’t enough, I don’t know what else you expect him to do. I doubt that there will be a bidding war for Michael Vick, and it definitely would not hurt us to have an option at the quarterback position. A lot of people question his awareness and his off field behavior, but they don’t seem to remember a cannon of an arm he had, and the ability to make plays with his feet. If we’re talking about awareness here, Delhomme isn’t a Payton Manning either. Not that I would start Vick ahead of Delhomme, but who else do we have at QB? Are we just going to hope that McCown would suddenly make plays for us when Delhomme goes down? Or should we call Vinny again?
I wouldn't be willing to sell my proverbial soul
and have Vick as Panther even if it salvaged a potential disastorous season. Some things are more important than losing seasons.
He has paid his debt to society, but why should he be a role model for children? Here kids, look at Michael Vick, he went to prison and can still make millions of dollars. Great message to send to the youth. If a teacher is a convicted sex offender for looking at child pornography, and they go to prison should they be allowed to be a teacher again?
The NFL is trying to clean up its image and if Goodell subscribes to his hypocrisy by letting Vick back in the league it will be a travesty. He can play in Canada, UFL or AFL… I’m sure they’d let him make more than enough to live on without having to play America’s game.
by James The Aussie on Jul 21, 2009 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I know what you mean
about being a role model for children and future NFL players. But people have seen the consequences of dog fighting and other criminal acts (very little I know). Although I agree that they should be severely punished, we can’t take NFL away from them for it. NFL team owners are aware of the situation, and it will be up to the team if they are willing to take a chance with someone who’s served his time. It’s not like giving them a second chance makes it easy for them to get back in the league anyway.
Plus, I think he could be a great spokesman for future NFL players. But we won’t know if he can’t be given a second chance. At the same time, we wont know if he’ll be another Pacman Jones, but if something like this happens again, he will definitely be done.
And what you said about teachers, that doesn’t mean they should be banned from teaching. But then if you were someone who was looking for a teacher for your school, would you take this guy with the criminal record? It’s just like what’s going on with Vick. His criminal record will still be there, owners are aware of it, and if someone’s willing to risk taking him, then he’ll play. Taking NFL away from Vick altogether does not make sense to me.
I think too many people are thinking that either Vick goes to the NFL or becomes a miscreant. This simply isn’t the case. He is still going to make millions playing football regardless of the league (UFL would be roughly $1 million per season).
I don’t believe in him being banned from making any form of living off football, I just feel like he shouldn’t be allowed on the greatest stage to do so. We wouldn’t even be arguing the merit of him returning if he was a special teams player and most likely if he was a 3rd or 4th stringer he would be banned. However, he was a marketable mega-star and that’s the only reason his reinstatement is part of the equation.
There will always be a team out there in the league willing to take a shot on a college player with behavioral issues, or free agents with off the field issues. Some of them will reform, others will send themselves out of the league (Pacman Jones, Maurice Clarett). Vick is a rarified situation because out of any player to have behavioral issues he was the first to go to prision in the offseason. It wasn’t a ‘one off’ event either, there were predictors that his behavior was getting worse and compared to the average player he did have quite a history of off the field incidents.
by James The Aussie on Jul 22, 2009 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions
..."It's obvious?"
How do you figure? A cannon arm certainly doesn’t make a great NFL QB: look at Kyle Boller and JaMarcus Russell. What is your question about McCown “suddenly” making plays? Do you really trust a guy who hasn’t played for two years and couldn’t throw back then more than a guy who’s been a starter as recently as two years ago?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
To all those saying
“My job wouldn’t take me back…”
What you are saying is that you are not valuable enough for your job to take a second chance on.
Vick might be. Deal with it.
by the bomb dot com on Jul 21, 2009 7:23 PM EDT reply actions
There are second chances and there's GOING TO PRISON...
You think the Falcons would take a ‘second chance’ on Vick? Not in your life. Give an undrafted rookie the roster spot, someone who isn’t a felon.
by James The Aussie on Jul 21, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Not the Falcons
Duh. They have an awesome QB.
Upon re-reading, I see how my post would be confusing.
I meant that not everyone who is released from prison is doomed to menial jobs for the rest of their lives. Depending on the rarity of specialists in their field, they could still hold value. This applies to not only athletes, but (especially) white collar criminals as well.
by the bomb dot com on Jul 21, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions
There is a difference between going to prison and being a convicted felon.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
No sir.
The vast majority of American companies have a pretty strict no felon policy. Happens on all levels, grunt to executive.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I hear...
The Vikings are still looking for a QB. Vinny Testaverde turned them down.
(a follow up to my joke on a thread a long time ago)
For James the Aussie
I don’t expect every NC/SC resident to simply over look his crime. There are thousands of folks attending (particpating and spectating) both Pitbull and Cock fights all thru both state even now. I’ve seen them pack out barns and forest clearings in Eastern NC (where I grew up),to the Mountains where you can purchase the finest pitbull bloodlines on the continent. My point is there is already a huge underground culture in this part of the country that sympothize with Vick’s situation. Comparing this to people sympothizing with murder is totally different. There are alot people who consider fighting animals a sport(check history) but only a few “sick” people that consider murder of a human being a sport. I personally do not fight my dogs, but I’ve not felt sick or disgusting watching to animals go at it either. So now feel free to label me whatever you’d like as long as one of the labels is a Carolina Panters fan!
Bold statement, sir...
,,,and I, for one, applaud your candor.
But I think the outrage about the matter is not the fighting of the animals, but his barbaric participation in their execution, and his lying about his involvement. He was not exactly an uninformed member of an underground culture, nor was he just folks.
Has he paid a full and devastating price for his actions? Absolutely.
But the NFL is a business, some would argue the most successful in the country right now. In considering his reinstatement, they’ll worry more about their image than his redemption.
True
The execution part is exacty why I haven’t (will never)put my dogs in the “Pit”. But for guys who actually breed their dogs for “competition” (for lack of a better word) they see culling as a necessary tool to ensure they are delivering the best product to their respective customers. They don’t see it as the barbaric execution of a pet, its way to ensure they are only mixing blood from the most “game” dogs. The only part of your statement I don’t agree with is that he was not a card carrying member of the underground culture. You don’t get to spectate much less particpate in these events unless you are connected. It takes more than just walking up with a few dogs and a briefcase full of cash. And I agree with you that lying about it from the jump was the dumbest thing he could have done. But I personally think two years of confinement should be enough punishment. It wouldn’t bother me if Godell gives him atleast 2-4 games to sit out. But I do not suscribe to the idea that because of his barbaric actions and lying he should be banned from the NFL nor should he have to sit out a whole season. Shoot, the Patriots have been lying to us for years and all they got was slap on the wrist and a fine. (I’m not comparing Mike Vick’s transgressions to those of Bill Belichick, I’m simply stating that lying to league officials doesn’t seem like that big of a deal to this current regime of authority.)
There's a difference between Vick and the Patriots...
One has been tried before a court of law and found guilty. One was accused of something without definitive evidence ever emerging.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
"He was not exactly an uninformed member"
This is essentially a double negative, equal to my saying more plainly, “He was an informed member.” He WAS a card-carrying member, was my point.
Fair enough...
I understand that a sub-culture of people may believe that watching fights to the death between animals bred for such behavior is a sport, and I know history supports this also. After all, in Rome it was customary to head to the local colesium and watch Christians get fed to lions as ‘sport’. Personally, I find the subculture of cock and dog fighting both reprehensible and disgusting, but I am not going to label you for enjoying it.
I was in Madrid two years ago and decided to see a traditional Spanish bullfight, I watched mouth agape as a bull bled to death from mutiple spear wounds before being killed with a sword. I went there as a cultural experience, and I am glad I did… but I would never attend this kind of event again.
Of course, you will always be able to find a subsect of people who don’t think what Vick did is wrong. However, I assure you that no matter how many people attend fights in those Eastern NC clearings or up in the mountains you are in the vast, vast minority. It isn’t just the animals that died that contribute to the Vick case, like bigdavis said it is the gambling, the lying, the contempt of court all while being an ‘NFL star’.
No offense to you, or anyone else who enjoys dogfighting but I would never, never in a blue moon want my children to look at that behavior as condonable or see someone who engages in this activity as a role model. When Vick is reinstated (I am aware this is going to be a ‘when’ not ‘if’) we are allowing a man with a history of subversive behavior to again become a role model for the youth of this country. That is what scares me about the Vick situation, and again perpetuates the notion that athletes (especially all-star athletes) are able to play be a different set of rules; because you better believe if Vick was a 7th rd pick and a special teams player Goodell would ban him.
by James The Aussie on Jul 23, 2009 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I understand where you coming from, James
That sucked, I had long rebuttal for you James but I accidently deleted it before I posted it. So I’ll try this again.
I get your point. I personally feel its up to us as parents to ensure that we give our gives some perspective when it comes to viewing their favorite athletes or any celebrities for that manner. I think its fine for any kid to want to “swing like Pujols” or " swim like Phelps" or " like Peterson" but I don’t thinks its ok to want to be that person. Its important that they know these people are normal human beings(with extraordinary talents) that don’t always do what it is right. Vick is not the first nor will he be the last to “fall from glory”. I do agree to some extent with your statement about him being a first rounder as opposed to some UDFA or 7th rounder. My point for this post is that while agree that Vick is not the type of guy I want my kids to look up to, its up to me make sure my son understands that what Vick does on the field has nothing to do with what kind of person he is in real life. I mean nobody wants their child to grow up thinking beating up people is ok, but I see an awful lot kids on gameday rocking Steve Smith jerseys.
Also what alot of people are not taking into account is the fact that although he may be getting paid by whichever team picks him up, he will never be able to see the huge edorsement money that in alot cases pay the athlete the majority of their income. Do you have any idea how many pair of Vick cleats were worn a few years ago? (Half of the Panthers defense used to wear them every game.)
Thanks for the response James
I definately agree that it is the parents responsibility...
but that is easy to say coming from a responsible parent. It’s the kids who don’t have father figures, who are already being led down bad paths early, the kids who are striving to find a role model wherever they can. Those are the kids I worry about.
The one argument I have never heard regarding this situation is this:
Michael Vick was in a more important position than I think he ever realized. As an African-American Quarterback he was in the vast, vast minority and it was vital for him to be a model citizen. Is it fair to put that pressure on one man? Probably not, but his role was bigger than Michael Vick himself, or the Atlanta Falcons.
Sadly, innane views like Rush Limbaugh’s (directed at McNabb a few years ago) will continually be perpetuated because of his mistake. McNabb, McNair, Vick and players like Warren Moon and Randall Cunningham before them helped play a vital role in ensuring that African-American QB’s be help in the same regard as their caucasian counterparts. With players like JaMarcus Russell and Vince Young also having poor work ethics and off-field issues I am deeply afraid more stereotypes are going to be perpetuated.
This is why, for the sake of the NFL it would be horrible to have Vick come back into the NFL resume being a star quarterback and should some off field incident ban him, (which I’m not saying it’s going to) I’m afraid bigots will be able to use it as ammunition to further perpetuate negative stereotypes about the ability of African-Americans to play QB.
by James The Aussie on Jul 23, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Ugh...
The accidental delete sucks.
As to your point…I don’t know if your Steve Smith statement is fair. It’s not as though he’s walked around town looking for somebody to pound on. He did not remain as composed as one would hope a person could, but he was in no way unprovoked (in either situation.)
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Then again...
How much of that “special consideration” is given because Vick’s stature was what allowed him to get in the dire financial straits he’s in now?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
On the field, Vick can still play. I can’t believe no one remembers the fits he gave the Panthers. Why would you not want an athletic talent like that? Vick got knocked for his passing but if you could run like him (if a play was breaking down) why not take off and make something happen based on your athletic ability? This is something that Delhomme will NEVER bring to the table. I just don’t get the hollier than thou comments made against Vick. EVERYONE deserves a second chance, if he screws up this one then yes you can come down on him and call him dispicable or what not. I would welcome Vick in a heartbeat, he could really open up the play book. I don’t understand how an athletic QB doesn’t “fit” the system here. Why would you not want an athlete at the most important position on the field? The Panthers just seem clueless at times, they could’ve had Pat White, but now he will reap the benefits with Henning in Miami.
75.2
That is the career passer rating for Vick.
Vick is a pathetic quarterback, but an amazing athlete. I’d rather have D-Will and J-Stew running the ball any day over Vick.
by James The Aussie on Jul 23, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
By the end of his run with the Falcons...
Teams were figuring him out. If you look above, I listed his numbers in his last four games against us, and it wasn’t pretty.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
When it comes right down to it...
The guy just was never a very good quarterback. When you have to add in now that he’s missed playing for several years and won’t be in game shape because he participated in activities that included hanging, electrocuting, and shooting innocent animals, no, there’s no chance I’d take him back for any team, no matter how dire their QB situation.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 10:35 AM EDT reply actions
Yes, based on athletic ability
Vick has never been assumed to be a great pocket QB. He is the prototypical running QB.
Based soley on his athletic ability, and that he still has that break away speed I will have to say yes. It will never happen, but yes I would like to see him here only because of what he brings to the table as far as football is concerned.
I do not agree and find it terrible by the way that he treated those dogs. It would be a huge chance for the Panthers to take in bringing him here and the PR would be a huge distraction. So, in saying this I must say that it will nevwer happen.
People say that he was a horiible passing QB, this is true, but what if thje Panthers became the first team to fully implement a true dual QB system? Think of the confusion on the part of the opposing Defense, because they would have to prepare for two QB’s instead of just one. There would be a lot of unpredictability and you would not know if Jake is going to pass or hand it of, and vice versa you would know if Vick was going pass, hand it off, or run it himself.
This will never happen, so getting any further consideration is a waste of time.
Go Panthers!!!
You so called Panther fans should know what Vick has done against us. i wouldn’t mind seeing him in a Panther uniform for at least a year to see what he can do.
With that being said, I hope he gets a chance to play in the NFL again. I don’t care if it’s in Carolina or another team.
I am so cracked up by comments. People are ticked off over him than they would ever be if he killed a person. Get over it!! If you done the same thing, served time in prison and got out, you would want to have a life.
Maybe you should take your time and go fight over the health care reform bill…. serve in the community center. Just ideas!!
I DO remember what he did against us in '05 and '06...
The Falcons went 1-3 by a combined score of 84-40, and Vick went 51-101 for 535 yards with 2 TDs and 5 INTs while only rushing for 107 yards and 0 TDs on 16 carries.
Further, your point as to how one would feel if they “done the same thing” is irrelevant. Because the vast majority of us haven’t, we certainly have every right to be disgusted and appalled. Finally, do you know the service record of every member of this blog? I certainly doubt it
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually he didn't even go to prison for killing dogs
But rather that he had a role in an illegal dog fighting venture. But I understand Tarheel’s point. Donte Stallworth ends a man’s life because he was doing something illegal… he gets 30 days! While Vick and Burress get far more time for what should be lesser crimes.
What would be worse for you? For your neighbor to shoot himself? To kill your dogs? Or to kill your relative or friend?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Except, again, people are ignoring the facts of the Stallworth case
The police report found the victim partially guilty, the victim’s family wrote to the judge to reduce Stallworth’s sentence.
It was a pity the man died, but he played a role in the situation too. Stallworth killed him because of he reduced/impared reaction times. He did not run a red light or plow down a pedestrian at a crosswalk.
Also, 1 night, 1 bad decision on Stallworth
Years of bad decisions by Vick.
by James The Aussie on Jul 24, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
There's not even any difinitive proof that there's a connection between the inebriation and the accident.
Unless they can rewind time and let Stallworth try to avoid him sober, we’ll never know if the death was even avoidable at all.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Good point
My point was based purely on assumption.
Lets not forget that Stallworth also called 911 immediately and was co-operative with the Police.
People enjoy having selective hearing when it comes to facts too.
by James The Aussie on Jul 24, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
We’ll never know if Stallworth would have been able to avoid him or seem him even if he were sober. The point is he wasn’t, and the police and judge are forced to take that into consideration and pass judgement based on medical evidence of what alcohol can cause you to do. I said in another post, had this happened and Stallworth were not impaired, he would have been totally off the hook IMO.
I think the 30 days (24) in jail could have been foregone too… just let him do even more community service. Keep him off taxpayer dollars and let him give back to the community.
I commend Stallworth for owning up to his actions at least and making it right the only way he could.
"If he were not impaired" Who cares?
… he was impaired! What-if’s don’t excuse you from crime.
And the punishment for DUI manslaughter should be community service because of tax dollars? Are you joking? You know how many people are in jail for non-violent crimes? Like petty drug possession charges? They are no threat to anyone but themselves… that is where our tax money is being wasted. But when your actions endanger another man, that is EXACTLY when the legal system should be involved.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
And how about the jaywalker...
Wasn’t he endangering the drivers on the road? Had he survived, would you have thrown him in jail, too?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 25, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok now I am speechless
You want to equate jaywalking with DUI manslaughter? I don’t think that’s worth arguing
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 26, 2009 1:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Just trying to take you at your word.
You suggested that “the legal system should be involved…when your actions endanger another man.” Would not jaywalking qualify?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
There's no proof? He admitted it!
And he pleaded guilty to DUI manslaughter. In addition to that blood tests showed that he also had marijuana in his system.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
He admitted it?
Admitted what? There is no chance he admitted to hitting and/or killing the guy specifically because of his intoxication, because that’s impossible to prove.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 25, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Try that argument with a cop
“Well how do you know it was my intoxication that caused me to swerve?”
Good luck with that.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Jul 26, 2009 2:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He didn't swerve.
Or speed, or wreck, or anything else. There was nothing in the accident report to indicate that Stallworth was doing anything untoward behind the wheel of that car.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
The fact of the matter is this.
The legal limit for alcohol intoxication in Florida is set at .08 much like the rest of the country. Some states are looser than others, and that number may be higher or lower. Every night, there are people out driving that are in excess of that limit and may be totally unaware as such, there are also people who think they exceed that limit but in fact are actually under the .08 threshold. Alcohol, has a different effect on everyone’s body, and certain people process it more efficiently than others.
For example: I am a large man, standing 6’4" and about 300lbs. and am 25 years old. I come from a background of heavy drinking in college, but before and after college have not been known to do much drinking. Recently, I attended the wedding of one of my old fraternity buddies in college, and had a substantial amount of alcohol. The rough equivalent of 12 shots of 80 proof alcohol and 4 beers in a 4 hour period. One of the other guests at the wedding is a police officer, and decided it would be fun to give us all field sobriety tests. We placed bets on who would have the highest and lowest BAC. To the shock of everyone involved, I blew a .07, even though I felt drunk (but did not show any visible signs), which means I could have driven legally in North Carolina. A friend of mine who drank much less, blew in excess of .16 but yet seemed and claimed to be much more sober.
Let’s say I was Donte Stallworth for the night, and on my way home hit a man running across a busy avenue, not in a crosswalk, and in the darkness of around 5 or 6am. I call the police to the scene and full cooperate, allowing the officer to perform a field sobriety test. Given another hour or so after my previous reading of .07 I have processed even more of the alcohol and blow a .05. The officer allows me to go on my way with the possibility of citation should the court need me to testify, but otherwise, it is ruled the fault of the pedestrian and not mine, so I face no legal consequences. Had my friend done the same thing, and reacted the same way, he would have met the fate that Stallworth did.
It is entirely feasible that Stallworth did not consume much alcohol at all, and was not actually feeling any of the negative effects. Witness reports from the bar, as well as receipts, indicate that he did not order many drinks. Not possessing any sort of way to test his own sobriety, he gets behind the wheel and goes home. Through a stroke of bad luck, a man recklessly endangers himself by running across a busy avenue in darkness, and is struck and killed by Stallworth. When police arrive is the first time Stallworth knows he is above the legal limit (albeit not by much) and is required to shoulder some of the blame for accidentally killing the man, even though it may have been entirely the mans fault that he met his own demise. Police cannot determine that, one way or another, due to the lack of witnesses other than Stallworth, and must hold him partially accountable due to the intoxication that he had, but never actually felt.
Had Stallworth hit this man in a crosswalk, far more severe penalties would have been faced.
"Donte Stallworth ends a man’s life because he was doing something illegal"
That is a speculative statement that you cannot prove in any way. And it’s impossible to evaluate the scenarios you present without the details of them. We know the details of the cases you pretend to compare: Burress was in possession of a concealed weapon, which is a felony anywhere in New York City. Vick engaged in an interstate gambling operation, which is a federal felony; Stallworth was driving under the influence (at proper speed) when he hit a man who was jaywalking without looking.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
No you don't know the details
What ever sources you are reading are wrong because they don’t compare to Stallworth’s own confession.
And it’s not just Stallworth… Leonard Little got only 90 days for dui manslaughter… how about Jason Williams shooting his limo driver and getting off by paying 2mil.
The point is that Vick did his time and now should get a second chance. These guys didn’t do just time. Bottom line it is a screwed up legal system.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
His confession?
Which one?
Jasoon Williams has gone to trial more than once. He’s won every time.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 25, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
A life and an NFL life are two different things.
The are plenty of other ways to earn money, and plenty of other ways to earn money playing football (UFL, CFL, AFL). Why should he be allowed back into the NFL? I have not heard one convincing argument why he should stay in the league.
Why are we ‘so called Panther fans’ for not wanting Vick on our team? Your logic and your argument make no sense.
Lets get Pacman Jones while we’re at it, what about Tank Johnson and Chris Henry too. I hear Plaxico is available. Having a bunch of criminals worked so well for the Bengals a few years ago, maybe we should give it a try? I mean, what’s character worth anyway?
But, I guess when you don’t have a real argument you throw innane statements about health care reform and community centers into an argument about Michael Vick.
by James The Aussie on Jul 24, 2009 11:30 AM EDT reply actions
I still fail to see a reason why he would not be allowed the possibility of playing NFL football again.
I’m not going to go into the whole gamut of reasons that have already been stated about how he’s served his time and blah blah blah. That has been hashed to death.
I think Goodell, if he does not ban Vick from the league, has made the correct decision.
This is a matter of letting the team management decide for themselves. If any of them want all the negative consequences involved for signing Vick, then that is their prerogative. We may find that there is an unofficial ban on Vick simply because no one wants that heartache. I don’t think this is a good place to enforce a top down decision.
I only wish that this could apply to the United States of America. Why can’t we go back to a day when the federal government was limited in it’s powers, and the states could decide more issues for themselves? The way our country was intended to be by the forefathers. A collection of state governments forming a larger republic (the federal government) in the interest of interstate trade (a national currency and road system as well as a judicial system to oversee inter-state fugitives), protection (a national military to defend against foreign threats too great to be handled by individual state militias), and foreign diplomacy (because who wants to deal with 50 delegates united under one cause?).
Vick has been reinstated
He will be eligible to play by week 6, but will be able to participate in all training camp and team activities, as well as week 4 and 5 preseason games.
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