Run Defense: Cause for Concern?
by ERL on Jul 19, 2009 4:03 PM EDT
44 comments
New Defensive Coordinator Ron Meeks employs a unique, pressure defense. It is not known how keen Fox is on implementing this kind of defense. The scheme involves the front four rushing the passer on virtually every down, and tackling the running back on the way (if a run play happens to be called).
With Meeks' defense, much of the run-stopping responsibility rests on the shoulders of the linebackers and defensive backs. The scheme is Cover 2 zone (Tampa 2), with the corners playing short zones. Because the corners are closer to the line of scrimmage, they are more involved in playing the run. In this defense, the linebackers have to be rangy, and exeptional at coverage. This is why the Colts had smaller, faster linebackers.
This defense is geared more towards putting pressure on the Quarterback, and limiting big plays in the passing game. Under Meeks, the Colts defense was great against the pass, but so-so (at best) against the run. It has been well documented that during their Super Bowl run, the Colts were dead last against the run during the regular season. Of course Bob Sanders came back from injury for the Playoffs and they became a solid run-defense. With this scheme, however, the Colts were always in the top-half of scoring defense (points allowed).
Fox prefers a more traditional, conservative 4-3 Zone defense. Much of the time he will run a Cover 4, where both the corners and safeties will drop 15-20 yards downfield. Many fans find this frustrating, as it allows teams to dink and dunk, but limits the number of 20+ yard pass plays. Like Meeks' system, the front four must get pressure on the QB, but they are also much more involved in stopping or at least containing/funneling the run.
With this safer approach against the pass, the Panthers have routinely been in the bottom-half of the league in defending runs up the middle. In 2008, Carolina finished 31st in this category. Some of the blame for this low ranking can be attributed to the loss of Maake late in the year, and Jon Beason and Chris Harris playing with one shoulder for most of the season. These three players will have to be instrumental in defending the run this season. Chris Harris should challenge Thomas Davis for the runner-up (to Beason) spot in total tackles. Also look for both Chris Gamble and Richard Marshall to be in the top 6 in tackles, if in fact Fox allows more Cover 2 zone.
With the defense being in the bottom half in runs up the middle prior to Meeks' arrival, should Panther Nation be even more concerned about our ability to stop the run now that Meeks is here? Will Fox allow Meeks any freedom with the defense, or will he continue to demand that his D-coordinator do things his way? Either way, there may be cause for concern. Meeks has said that he will not blitz very often. This includes run-blitzes. There may also be very little "man" assignments for the linebacking corp, as they are proned to dropping back to cover the pass in a Cover 2 zone.
With Fox being rather set in his ways, Meeks may not get the opportunity to control the defense much like he did in Indy. As a Panter fan, would you like Fox to continue to run the ol' tried and true, or should he let Meeks employ his system?
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Run Defense: Cause for Concern?
“the Panthers have routinely been in the bottom-half of the league in defending runs up the middle. In 2008, Carolina finished 31st in this category. "
Hi, guys, this is my first post here — hope I don’t intrude with this observation:
The NYG game in week 16 certainly skewed the defensive stats on runs up the middle against us. Our season’s average was giving up 119.5 YPG rushing - in any direction! Yet we surrendered 302 in that game by Derrick Ward and Brandon Jacobs (in 39 attempts, a whopping 7.7 YPC!) - and if I recall correctly, the large majority of those came up the middle (play began there, many were subsequently cut to the outside.) This IMO was solely because we were without Maake Kemoeatu or Damione Lewis — Nick Hayden’s 292 lbs. or Tyler Brayton’s 280 couldn’t stop anybody when they were in there at DT.
Quantitatively speaking, our ALY (adjusted line yds) for the whole season was 4.65 on runs up the middle against us — yet with our regular DT’s out, we gave up 3.09 more yds per play than average. The difference between the NFL team ranked #1 (Baltimore) in runs defensed up the middle (3.09 ALY) and us (4.65 – ranked #31) was only 1.56 yds per rush.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl
Absent the anomaly of that game, I don’t think our interior run defense was so bad the rest of the season. So our depth is weak there, unless heavyweight newcomers like Lonnie Harvey (342) or Marlon Favorite (317) can step up if called upon.
So if Maake’s healthy, I don’t think our interior run defense is soft at all — therefore, no concern to me.
Our overall YPC dropped way down...
but as I noted below, that had a lot to do with replacing Jenkins with Lewis as a starter.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 19, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Welcome to the blog bigdavis
well put together response
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Thank you, sir
I’ll try to live up to the quality of input I found here. Great site you have here.
Are you implying that our LBs might not be good enough against the run
… to be effective in Meeks’ system? What I have been hearing is that our players are more suited to Meeks’ style of defense… Does anyone think this is not the case?
I just hope, after last years defensive woes, that Fox will let Meeks do his thing. The players seem to be pumped about i,t and it sounds like that is whats going on in practices.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Our LBs are some of the fastest in the league.
I think they’ll fit in fine.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 19, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Diggs might be the only question mark, speed-wise
Could Conner play the Sam? Seems so to me but I guess the speed is a question, and his knee rehab
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
"With this safer approach against the pass, the Panthers have routinely been in the bottom-half of the league in defending runs up the middle:
This is not correct. Under Fox, the team typically ranked among the top run defenses in any direction before we allowed ourselves to get ripped off in the Jenkins trade. To be honest, Damione Lewis just isn’t a good enough run-stuffer to be an above-average starting DT in the league. Still, though, he’s bigger and a better run stuffer than most of the guys Meeks saw at DT in Indy.
It will be interesting to see how our corners respond to this new system. Despite their sizes, Marshall is the far more physical type and Gamble is the more finesse of our starters.
As for the Fox vs. Meeks debate, I don’t think Meeks will simply follow Fox’s order. He’s too accomplished and too proud to have signed on if that were the case. As such, we may see even fewer blitzes and we may see more bump and run zone, but Fox will still have his hand in our scheme.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 19, 2009 10:41 PM EDT reply actions
Gamble not so much finesse
He came up to stuff the run to his side many times last season — his quick reaction to sweeps to his side, and sure tackling, along with Tyler Brayton’s talents, are the reasons we ranked 2nd in defense in the league vs runs off offenses’ RT’s.
Last year, perhaps...
But over the course of his career, he hasn’t been great in run support. Remember Edge trucking him on the way to the end zone without so much as a speed bump’s worth of delay?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 20, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Gambles a big guy for a corner
six feet tall. He is more finesse than our other guys, but he can lay the hit just as well.
by Flowing Willow on Jul 20, 2009 5:59 AM EDT up reply actions
We cut our biggest hitter at CB, Ken Lucas
I’m not saying to bring him back at all, but I recall seeing him really go at it last TC. He didn’t get to show it much during the season though because our CB’s played so far off the line
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Yeah, wasn't saying he's small...
Just that he’s not exactly known as a fierce (or even willing) hitter.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 20, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I'll be happy to see our CB's playing closer to the line
those free releases to run wild drove me nuts
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Amen
I’m sure you guys remember when we physically dominated Philly’s receivers in the 2003 NFC championship game by jamming them relentlessly at the line. The last several seasons we got away from that, it seems.
Gamble may not be a dominant force in run-support, but I have seen him lay some wood on receivers and TEs on quick routes. He will usually go for a thigh or knee though.
Yeah Gamble is physical, the scheme doesn't show it though.
by Flowing Willow on Jul 21, 2009 6:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Guys...
Are you really going to say Gamble is as physical as he needs to be? The guy’s been run over more often in run support than any corner on the team in the last few years.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 21, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
That;s just not true
Again, remember your own motto — your arguments are ignoring the facts. It was Lucas who avaided contact like the plague last year.
I’ll cite 3 instances in one game alone, the NYG 12/21 OT loss.
1) 3Q 8:57; we lead 21-13. NYG ball on their 20, 2nd and 6. Pitch to Brandon Jacobs. Gamble is lined up 5 yds off the LOS, yet comes up to make the tackle for a 1 yd gain.
2) 2 plays later, 1&10 on their 27, same play, Gamble comes up to share the tackle at the 32.
…you want to get in Brandon Jacobs’ way to make the tackle on a sweep? Didn’t think so; neither would I. Would you not call Gamble’s efforts “Physical?”
3) 4Q 5:34, still up 28-20 — NYG 1&10 on their 22. Gamble again 5 yds off the LOS — he plays off the block from the WR, and shares the tackle with Beason after a 2yd gain by Derrick Ward.
Other games, other examples. Them’s the facts — check em out yourself.
Now go answer my other post where I questioned your accuracy. You are becoming pedantic.
Last I checked...
Three plays do not a career make.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 21, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
No sir.
You’re certainly right about that, sir.
I am properly chastised.
I do understand your point...
And he has gotten better. The play that sticks in my mind is the one where Edgerrin James just ran him over on the way to the end zone in the ’07 game against Arizona, a TD that gave them an early lead.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 21, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha.
I didn’t at all say that was what defined his career. Just that it “stuck in my mind.” I’m glad your memory of bad plays is shorter than mine.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 21, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's agree our memories are equally short
Mine on his bad plays; yours on his good ones.
ha.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 22, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Yet I can’t get the memory of John Kasay kicking the ball out of bounds in the Super Bowl out of my head.
Yes, I know it wasn’t his fault but I still can’t get rid of that image.
by bengoodfella on Jul 22, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, yeah, that was his fault.
Now the whole loss might not have been, but when you’ve got over 20 yards of room in either direction to keep the ball in the field, you’ve got to come through.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 22, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I know…I have come to terms with it and just chalk it up to a great kicker choosing a bad time to make a mistake.
Plus, I think we have mentioned before kickoffs aren’t his thing anyway.
by bengoodfella on Jul 22, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes.
We waited far too long to fix that problem. Although I don’t know what we do with Lloyd’s deal up after this season and Kasay and Baker locked up through the o’12 season.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 22, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Marshall is physical
Lucas was the one who avoided contact last year, I remember when Antonio Bryant caught it in front of him five yards from the endzone. Lucas looked like a deer in the headlights on his way to being run over. Gamble may not be as physical as some guys, but you cannot question the toughness of a guy who played with one arm for several games.
by Flowing Willow on Jul 23, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, one hand...
But yes, I was one of the few people at the time even willing to acknowledge that.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Linebackers
It may have been poorly stated in the original post…I think the linebackers are an adequate to above average fit for a Cover 2 Zone.
I’d like to see Thomas Davis blitz more often, as he is the best blitzer on the team, but that probably will not happen. His coverage skills are solid. As the WLB, he would play a position similar to Derrick Brooks when he was in Tampa. He will need to give middle and deep help to the corner on the weak side (Marshall?). I do think TD is better suited to play a downhill style, however.
Jon Beason can do anything, really. He’ll have to drop into the deep middle quite often in this scheme. Just let this guy run and make plays, and he will be fine.
Nail Diggs is not a great fit, but he is a big guy. Lining him up over a TE is a good match-up, because his is 6-4 and 240. Diggs should be pushed by Dan Conner in camp…maybe the only intriguing camp battle over a starting spot. I think Conner is a better fit because of his speed and coverage ability. I don’t see Conner beating Diggs for the spot, but either way the upside is that they are both great on special teams.
Davis is MUCH better reading and reacting to the ball...
His struggles in coverage were a big part of why he ended up at LB long term.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 20, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Struggles as a safety
big difference in covering as a safety rather than covering as a linebacker. You have more ground to cover and have to read quickly. Now he should be better at linebacker simply because of his athletic ability, and his instincts should improve. One thing I’ve noticed about you Procton is that you usually don’t factor in player growth (Williams, Otah, Davis, etc)
by Flowing Willow on Jul 21, 2009 6:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm well aware of the differences in coverage.
One thing I’ve noticed you (and most others) is that you usually consider what’s immediately happened with a player and ignore their track record. Davis played the “rover” position at Georgia: it’s a hybrid S/LB spot that allows a player to have the enhanced play-reading capacities of a safety’s distance from the LoS with the read and react/flow to the ball responsibilities of an LB. He was very rarely in man to man coverage from any distance off the line, and was basically allowed to use his instincts and athleticism to get him by, rather than the refined techniques required of an NFL player at either position. Has he gotten somewhat better at these things since entering the league? Sure, but I don’t think 1 INT and 17 PDs in the last four years are going to impress much of anybody. Beason’s at 4 and 14 in his first two! Fact is, three-four years of missing skill development in college are going to be difficult to make up, and that’s not to say that it was because UGA has a bad program or Davis couldn’t handle it. It’s just that those skills weren’t a requirement of the role he played for them, so they figured they’d make him very good at the things he did need to do: he’s a consistent tackler who can deliver fierce hits, which made him such an ST stud even before he was good enough to take over a starting job. His first step and his read/react skills are great. HE was one of the players, I think, who was really aided by the “simpler” scheme last year. It will be interesting to see how he responds to playing more zone in space if there is a lot of Cover 2 played.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 21, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not worried at all about the run defense for the Panthers. They have the best DE in the NFL, he can do anything.
In all seriousness, if Kemo goes down the Panthers are pretty screwed. They haven’t done too much to improve the running defense other than change schemes. I have very little doubt about our LB’s ability to tackle the ball carrier, I am more concerned with the D-line being able to keep guys off the linebackers so they can make the tackles. This is the area I wish the Panthers had been able to improve more in the off season.
Irvin should be able to at least match or even better what we got from Darwin Walker in the run game.
And one of Hayden or Favorite should be able to come in and be a solid backup. Remember, Hayden was a developmental prospect who was essential supposed to “redshirt” last year as a 6th-rounder.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 21, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Any defense that puts more responsiblity on our LBs is a good defense
We have loads of talent at linebacker, and depth as well in case of injury. I am more that comfortable giving them more responsiblity and letting our D-Line create pressure. Like I have said before, i would not be surprised to see a “speed package” employed by Meeks in obvious pass situations where we employ 4 DEs to just blitzkrieg the offensive line. line em up all on the outside shoulder, take the center out of the blocking scheme and let them try and beat their man one on one. This will be deadly.
I think we made a great DC hire in Meeks, and he is in a better spot (agruably) than he was with the Colts with the linebacker talent in Carolina.
a note... that i thought of to late
This will be the hell every pocket passer fears, but will not work on more mobile QBs with the threat of a draw looming.
The Colts actually always had really underrated LBs...
But our talent and size on the DL (particularly up the middle) is something he should be drooling over.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 21, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Meeks system will be in place !!
Meeks will run the defense, the reason Fox had to run the old tried an true method is b/c Trugovac couldn’t or rather didn’t know how to run anything but cover 2 ?? I mean come on our CB’s were give sides of the field an not assigned receivers ? I mean what the hell is that about ?? Go meeks, our d-fence will give alot of people a shock this year just as our offense suprised everyone last year.
by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Jul 22, 2009 11:39 PM EDT reply actions
Umm...
If running Cover 2 was our problem, then we’re in it deep. That’s all Meeks has ever run. And don’t act like the Panthers are the only team in the league that doesn’t have its corners shadow receivers. Nnamdi Asomugha is just now being allowed to take on those responsibilities, and he’s been the best cover guy in the league for at least a year.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
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