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Carolina Panthers Depth Chart Review: Offensive Tackle

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This next installation of our depth chart reviews covers the offensive tackle position. The Panthers are very well set with starters Jordan Gross and Jeff Otah. Both will anchor the line for years to come. The real question with this position is who will back them up. The Panthers lost both of their back-up tackles from last season when Frank Omiyale signed with the Bears and Jeremy Bridges was released. That leaves a number of inexperienced players to vie for the two stated back-up positions. The Panthers value players with the flexibility to play multiple positions. Using last season as a gauge I would expect the Panthers to keep three reserve linemen, two of which that can back-up at least two positions.

Let's start with a brief review of the starters.

Left Tackle - Jordan Gross 6'4" 305 lbs - Starter

Gross is a former first round pick from the 2003 draft that was moved to the left side in 2008 and responded with his first Pro Bowl selection. Gross isn't the biggest, strongest or meanest tackle to play the game but he uses very good technique, quick feet and leverage to keep his match-up at bay. The Panthers rewarded his nice season with a lucrative long term contract that will allow him to protect the QB's blind side for many years to come.

Star-divide

Right Tackle - Jeff Otah 6'6" 330 - Starter 

Otah_locked_up_medium
Though Otah struggled with injuries in the first half of the season he showed enough to validate the big price the Panthers paid to draft him. I'll never forget when I reviewed the game film from the Bears game and on his very first play he drove PB DT Tommy Harris seven yards across the field! You can read my review of Otah's performance here. Considering how good he was as a rookie I can't help but get excited at what he will do with a season under his belt.

From here it is a guessing game but I know the Panthers are looking for at least one pure tackle and then maybe one G/T combo.

Geoff Schwartz 6'6" 331 - 70% chance of making the roster

Schwartz is a second year player who spent his first season on the Panthers practice squad working on his strength and conditioning. Based on Jordan Gross's recent evaluation of him after working out together in the off-season it would appear Schwartz is going to make a solid run at earning a roster spot this year. He has played exclusively on the right side and given his size that appears the natural spot for him. Though he is inexperienced so is all of his competition for the spot so I would be very surprised if he doesn't make the roster.

Gerald_cadogan_medium
Gerald Cadogan 6'5" 310 Lbs
- 30% Chance of making roster; 90% chance of making PS

Cadogan is a rookie who expected to be drafted but surprisingly never heard his name called. The Panthers quickly jumped on the former All Big Ten and Academic All American and he is now a fan favorite to make the team. He will definitely have the opportunity in Carolina as the Panthers search for a serviceable back-up to Jordan Gross. Cadogan played LT in college and appears to have the size, strength, smarts and long arms to make the transition. Here's his pre-draft scouting report:

Gerald Cadogan may have moved himself into mid-to-late round consideration; he ran a 5.12, benched 26 reps and his arms measured 35 inches - the third-longest of all the offensive tackles at the 2009 NFL Combine.

Though it turned out to not be enough Cadogan could easily be the UDFA gem of this class. If by chance he should not make the roster he is a top candidate for the PS.   

Jonathan Palmer 6'4" 336 lbs - 20% chance of making the roster

Palmer came out of Auburn in 2007 as a UDFA signing with the Eagles. He later played in one game for Oakland that same season. Since then he spent time with the Giants and Browns before signing to the Panthers PS in September of last season. It would appear he is vying for the back-up LT spot behind Jordan Gross. No word if Palmer can also play guard which would then increase his chances. As it remains Palmer has an outside chance at best of sticking but his prior experience might give him an edge over the younger players.

Garry Williams 6'3" 300 lbs - 1% chance of making roster; 20% chance of making practice squad 

Williams is a product of Kentucky who has an outside chance of making the team. Here's his 2008 season preview comments and then his Walter Football draft profile:

Senior Garry Williams needs to work on his footwork to prevent the excessive sacks (38), but his all-SEC nod gives promise that he will lock his side down eventually.

1/6/09: Once again qualified for the All-SEC Second Team.

5/24/08: A two-year starter and a member of the All-SEC Second Team, Garry Williams was part of a front that helped the Wildcats average more than 33 points per game in 2007.

Giving up a lot of sacks in college doesn't forebode good things and he doesn't appear to be overly quick. Though he did play against top notch competition in the SEC he doesn't appear poised to make the jump this year.

Patrick Brown 6'5" 303 lbs - 0% chance of making the roster; 10% chance of making the PS

Since Brown didn't even make the Walter Football prospect list his chances are slim to none of sticking beyond this TC. In other words, just call him meat. TC meat that is!

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That's what I like to see

I love the size of those OT’s – Schwartz especially. He played baseball and basketball in HS so I knew he was already a pretty athletic tackle…..good to hear he’s getting stronger because I think he has a great chance to help us out.

by R-F on Jul 18, 2009 11:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Cadogan may have too much visibility

If the Panthers release Cadogan, I have a feeling some other team will pick him up before he could be placed on the Panthers’ Practice Squad. He’ll either have to have such a bad showing that he’s dropped from all consideration or a spot on the 53-man roster will have to be found.

by GKB on Jul 19, 2009 8:29 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It'll be interesting to see.

But, if he doesn’t show well enough to make our 53-man, do you think some other team would take that chance? Players rarely sign on to practice squads of a team they didn’t camp with.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 19, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for another great review Jaxon. I think this is really the only position on the line that I am not to concerned about (other than Gross’ false start issues that he seemed to have fixed halfway into last season). I think Schwartz will be a great backup lineman. Hopefully after a season on the practice squad and Jordan Gross giving him pointers on how to play the game at a higher level, he will become a quality backup lineman.

The only position on the line I am worried about is the OG area. But that is discussion for another day….

Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader

by Ivan459 on Jul 19, 2009 11:40 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I almost agree.

In terms of O-line depth, I am mostly concerned about the backup to Kalil. I believe the team is looking at Bernadeau for this position even though he has ZERO game experience there.

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jul 19, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He actually played there in the preseason last year.

But yes, it is something of a concern that he’s our primary backup C.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 19, 2009 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not concerned???

All the reserves on this list combine for, I think 0 regular season games. And Otah could have potential to be injury prone. Just curious… who are the multi-position “value players” not on this list?

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Jul 19, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Robinson G/T and Bernadeau G/C

Both of these are guards first but can play other positions, so it appears

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Jul 20, 2009 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also...

Wharton, obviously, can play G and T (although we wouldn’t want to have to), while CJ Davis played G and C in college and Jonathan Palmer played all five positions at Auburn.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 20, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Palmer could be a dark horse then to make th eroster given the flexibility

they have some tough decisions

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Jul 20, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thoughts:

I don’t know if Otah has quite proved he was worth the price we paid yet. We gave up picks worth the 12th and got the 19th. The difference is a mid-second rounder worth of value, a pick we certainly could have used last year to shore up the DT spot or to draft a higher OL backup we could feel better about this year than 7th-rounders Bernardeau and Schwartz. He certainly didn’t quell the durability concerns given he missed the entire summer and several games last year with a sprained ankle. Further, he was quite poor in pass protection, ranking only 14th among RTs haven given up 5 sacks in only 12 games. The only player to give up more in fewer games was Jon Jansen, who’s ridiculously old and signed to be a backup for the Lions. Not exactly company you want to keep. To have paid the price we did to get him, I would have wanted to see a guy who could not only be a mauler in the run game, but a guy who showed the kind of intelligence, footwork, and overall skills to eventually be able to play LT. Thus far, I haven’t seen those qualities from Otah. Further, we’ll never know, but I would imagine we could have done just as well with a line that included Wharton/Gross-Hangartner-Kalil-Vincent-Gross/Wharton or a lower-round G in place of Hang.

Schwartz: This guy is a beast strength-wise, but his footwork isn’t great. I don’t know if he’s gotten any reps at G, but he’d certainly seem to be a good fit there if he can pull well enough.

Palmer: He actually not only played OG, but got starts at all five positions in college. That kind of versatility is very valuable.

Brown: He’s actually a talented guy (All-C-USA both of the last two years (1st ‘07, 2nd ’08.)) He started every game at LT for UCF from his first as a true freshman. That’s not easy to do, particularly when he suffered what appeared to be a pretty bad knee injury early last year, but he gritted up and went out there. Here are a couple views on him:

POSITIVES: Physical, hard-working lineman with marginal athleticism. Blocks with good lean, quickly gets his hands into defenders and anchors in pass protection. Solid position blocker who makes good use of angles and keeps his feet moving throughout the action. Plays with a large degree of intelligence and displays good awareness.

NEGATIVES: Not light on his feet and struggles against athletic opponents. Shows minimal quickness and explosion to his game.

ANALYSIS: Brown has been a productive and durable player at Central Florida, yet he lacks the great upside for the next level. A left tackle in college, he possesses the frame and growth potential to move to the right side as he physically matures.

—CNNSI

Overview
Plays at a small school against a lower level of competition and is lighter than you’d like, but I think he can play in the NFL – in the right system.
Strengths
Good height. Skilled and experienced at pass-blocking. Athletic. Pulls well. At least walls his man off in the run game. Shut down George Selvie early in the year.
Weaknesses
Light. Finesse-type blocker. Will have to be in the right kind of system at the next level to succeed.Not going to blow people off the ball in the run game. Made his impressions against a largely low level of competition.

—CDSDraft

Could he be a potential OG at some point?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 19, 2009 12:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

PP, Procton the pessimist, lol

But Procton, you forget, for a RT he doesn’t need to be a great pass blocker. 5 sacks is decent, and his mauling in the run game is invaluable.

by Flowing Willow on Jul 19, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Decent?

It’s 14th in the league among RTs. That number projects to 6.6 over 16 games, and that would have put him 25th. Do we really want to have one of the worst 10 pass-blockers in the league at RT?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 19, 2009 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would still say it was a good showing for a rookie

I guess we could always argue he wasn’t worth the price based on who we could have had instead, using hindsight that is

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Jul 20, 2009 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eh...

I wasn’t ever wild about that deal. No matter how well it works or how well it helps you “establish a philosophy,” I just don’t think you can get beat that bad in a deal for picks.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 20, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fox had a one season mentality I think

many thought if the Panthers didn’t win 2008 he and Hurney would be out the door. I’m not sure I agree but the trade seemed to support that notion. We got underpaid for Jenkins and some would say overpaid for Otah.

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Jul 20, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would agree with both of those statements.

However I am glad we have Otah. I think he will develop into a Pro Bowl RT.

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jul 21, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is it really that bad?

For a first-year starter? I don’t really think so. Plus, just to clarify, when you wrote that he was one of the worst 10 pass-blockers in the league you were just looking at RT, not LT too. Just wanted to clarify because the way it reads is that you were ranking him among all of the tackles. Plus, those stats are kind of misleading because if you are going to say Otah will project to 6.6 then you MUST also project the other guys who missed games and add onto their totals and then re-rank all of the them as well. Otah would finish higher than 25th in that situation.

Do you know of any other guys you could compare him to and look at stats for their first years? Just for comparisons sake, I picked a random guy on a good team to compare……Max Starks. Both him and Otah have similar size. Starks gave up 8 sacks his first two years at starter……gave up 4 last year. Just signed a 4 year deal with the Steelers after being designated as their franchise player. He even plays LT for them.

I’m just not worried over 5 sacks in 12 starts for a rookie RT who is also a great run blocker in a run-oriented offense.

by R-F on Jul 20, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure.

Let’s take a look at a guy who, as a rookie, started 16 (not 12) games for his team at left (not right) tackle. He did this for a team that ranked 3rd (not 32nd) in pass plays. He also allowed 0.5 sacks (not 5.0) on the year. This player’s name is Ryan Clady, and he was picked just seven spots in front of Otah.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 22, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

What’s your point exactly? Clady is very, very good…..one of the best rookie OT’s to come into the league in a long time. That doesn’t mean Otah is bad. I don’t take that as a slight on Otah at all.

by R-F on Jul 23, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You asked for a comparison. I gave you one.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Clady is exceptional at pass-blocking

He shut down Julius Peppers remember. ; ) BUT, Clady’s run-blocking leaves a little to be desired. Compare Otah to other rookie RT’s, I gurantee he is better.

by Flowing Willow on Jul 24, 2009 5:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well...

His run-blocking must not have been bad, because Peppers didn’t just get shut out on sacks. He got shut out on sacks. And I think the consensus here is that Peppers is an elite end worth of ranking in the top 3-5 among the league.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So...

when we could have gotten a guy just seven picks earlier who could be the best lineman in the league already (and let’s face it, the best LT is the best overall OL) and we instead have a guy who might be one of the better RTs…I think I have a right to be disappointed. I’d have been much more pleased to have given up an Otah-esque tradeup package to get Clady.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But would we have had a better offense with Clady?

Jake may have not have been sacked 20 times, but would he be that much better? What about our running game? Would we still have rushed for over 2000 yards and 28 TD’s from both our backs? Honestly, that trade worked out well for us, just accept the results and move on. Who did Philadelphia pick up from the trade?

by Flowing Willow on Jul 25, 2009 5:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe they used it to get Jason Peters.

by packpigskinfan25 on Jul 25, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And Trevor Laws...

A rotational DT who would have looked good in a Panthers jersey last year and going forward.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 25, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm, a rotational DT

versus a starting RT. It’s no contest to me. Lets just all remember that Otah is a great player who will get better. We came out alright with the trade, lets move on.

by Flowing Willow on Jul 28, 2009 6:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A starting RT we ALREADY HAD!

Gross performed at All-Pro level on the right in ‘07. No reason to think he couldn’t have had the same kind of performance last year.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now we have two tackles who can move the pile.

I haven’t seen that ability in Clady’s game.

by Flowing Willow on Jul 30, 2009 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dissappointed?

Yeah, I guess so. But can you not take solace in the fact that the guy that we got is a pretty damn good player too? We can what-if all day about every single draft pick ever but in the end it’s just a waste of time.

by R-F on Jul 25, 2009 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do agree.

I would have loved to get Clady. I am also very happy with Otah. I think they both are very good and Otah still is raw. He started playing football very late. The next few years will be interesting to see how he develops.

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jul 26, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't disagree.

Just don’t want all this mortgaging of the future to bite us in the end.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...

You’re a bit too negative on Otah. 5 sacks isn’t great, but keep in mind: He was a rookie. His passing coverage technique in the pros will come with time. It’s more about technique and less about raw strength like in run blocking; so he has much room to grow. Also, we are a run dominant offense. With the way he absolutely mauled people last year (as a rookie) he’s set to be one of the best run blockers in the league. I think that’s definitely something the Panthers want. Just watching him play last year I’d say he was one of the biggest reasons we had one of the best running games in the league and why Deangelo Williams had the best year for a Panther’s RB ever. (a player you were also down on a year ago ) ;-)

So yeah, I’d say he was worth the extra pick. We may have even missed the playoffs last year without him. 5 sacks or no.

by pancanbra on Jul 19, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fox and crew knew what they were getting

Average pass blocking but dominating run blocking. I think that is exactly what they wanted, because Fox’s plan is for the run to create big pass-play opportunities for us. He can afford to take some time teaching him up in pass protection, but we needed to run immediately.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Jul 19, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aren't you the one who complains about Jake's fumbles?

The more often he gets hit, the more often he fumbles.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 19, 2009 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I remember him fumbling before Otah ;)

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Jul 19, 2009 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, he was great overall for a rookie.

But that doesn’t make him worth dropping a mid-2nd rounder worth of value.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 19, 2009 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No.

For a 2nd-round pick, I’d want a star. That’s what the Patriots were willing to give for Julius Peppers—“the greatest DE to ever play football”—remember?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 20, 2009 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So now when Martin and Brown don't light the world on fire,

they are average right. : P Now, you have to look at his impact in the run game as opposed to his passing game flaws. As well, five sacks isn’t a lot, if we allowed five sacks total, would you be having this conversation? The overall ranking is kind of BS as well, if the best OT allows 12 sacks, does that make him good because he was the best of all the OT’s? Also, the mid-second rounder we spent to get him would have been used this year on another OT or even Everrete Brown. So we get a solid, maybe even great, OT in Otah, a year early and a playoff appearance before.

by Flowing Willow on Jul 20, 2009 5:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can want in one hand a S*$% in another…..

The Patriots are nuts to think they would ever get Peppers for that… even if he isnt as great as everyone wants to think he is. The Patriots have just been lucky enough to screw over a LOT of teams lately with trades- and have a million picks as well. Their managment has gotten away with murder, and I am glad the Panthers didnt allow it to happen to them.

I think what we paid for Otah was a high price… but it was worth it. Our run game would not have been anywhere near as good without him. One can say it would still have been servicable, but it would not have been intimidating as it was.

by packpigskinfan25 on Jul 20, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

We all want stars with our 2nd round picks. But the reality, as with any draft picks, is that there is a chance we could get a player in the 2nd round with no value whatsoever to our team. For every Marshall or Kalil that we draft there is a Shelton, Nelson, or Colbert.

I know that isn’t the best way to look at it, but the reality is that there is a certain level of uncertainty with every draft pick. The fact that we gave up a pick to get IMO a pretty good lineman who can start and do well in this league is worth it already to me. As long as Otah continues to produce than I can always view that trade as a successful one.

by R-F on Jul 20, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, support is different from such a statement.

You and I both support Jake, but I do not think either of us would ever call Jake “the greatest ever”. Big difference.

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jul 22, 2009 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is the problem with stats...

Just like I don’t think DEs should be measured only by sacks, CBs only by interceptions, and QBs only by QB rating. They don’t tell the full story.

I don’t have the film on Otah’s 2008, and I’m not arguing with the numbers, but my guess would be that not all of them can be considered directly his fault.

Delhomme (I know, I know) holding the ball a moment too long, maybe a missed chip by a RB or TE, confusion on a blitz pickup, etc. You get my point.

However, maybe they all were his fault- in which case I’m willing to chalk it off as breakage, the cost of doing business with a rookie who is competing against top-tier talent.

I think the early results on that trade have been favorable towards us, but only time will tell for sure.

by the bomb dot com on Jul 19, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually...

If it’s a missed block by an RB or TE, the sack allowed is credited to them.

If it’s confusion on a blitz pickup, it’s credited to the one who’s confused.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 19, 2009 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My point was...

Stats are only as useful as the statistician.

by the bomb dot com on Jul 20, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

5 sacks in 12 games?

Michael, where’d you come by this figure? I’ve searched a lot of sites (Football Outsiders, Football Encyclopedia, Walter, NFL, ESPN, CBS, etc) and haven’t been able to find where such an individual OL stat is kept. Be interested to know. Thanks.

by bigdavis on Jul 20, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They're floating around in several forums...

This is one of them.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 20, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting site I hadn't seen before, but....

…even the guy who made the post listing OL sacks allowed wasn’t sure of its accuracy —

EDIT: Found these on another forum, so dont know how reliable they are.

Plus, and more importantly, having read the thread, most of the replies question the IMPORTANCE of such a stat in grading the worthiness of an OLman — as responsibility for a sack is hard to pin on one blocker (or his QB’s pocket agility.)

So I think Otah’s value to the Panthers’ run game cannot be offset by some nebulous discussion of sacks allowed. The man is a beast at moving out his man on runs, even taking out a second level tackler many times. He’ll be All-Pro with more experience.

by bigdavis on Jul 20, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've seen them in several places...

And I do think that sacks allowed are an important measure, particularly given we’ve got a QB who has at times shown a penchant for coughing up the ball when he gets hit.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 20, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"a penchant for coughing up the ball when he gets hit."

You’re way off base with that “penchant” comment, Michael.

You’re a stat guy, aren’t you?

Then if Jake loses 3 fumbles last year, and if that’s defined as a penchant, what do you call these numbers by other notable starting QB’s, a pandemic?

Philip Rivers, 4 lost fumbles
Matt Cassel, 4
Donovan McNabb, 5
Trent Edwards, 5
Tony Romo, 7

..oh, and those 2 guys who got their teams to the Super Bowl:

Kurt Warner, 7
Big Ben, 7

Like sacks allowed by a rookie who’ll maul his man on a run block, this is a non-factor.

by bigdavis on Jul 20, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yo, Michael

cat scratch got your tongue?

by bigdavis on Jul 20, 2009 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hardly.

One year does not tell the story of how much a guy fumbles; nor does the amount of fumbles lost tell how fumble-prone a guy is. If it hits the ground, it’s basically luck as to who comes up with the recovery. A “penchant” is something that’s established over the course of a career, not a season.

Further, Jake was only sacked 20 times. That’s an incredibly low number, and he doesn’t run much either, meaning he doesn’t have much opportunity to cough up the ball.

Given there’s no way to confirm a slide, let’s assume all of those QBs were hit on each sack they took and run they made.

Romo: 13/28+20=27.1%
Warner: 11/18+26=25%
Roethlisberger: 14/34+46=17.5%
Rivers: 8 fumbles/31 carries+25 sacks=14.2% fumbles
Edwards: 9/46+23=13.0%
Delhomme: 5 fumbles/20 carries+20 sacks=12.5%
McNabb: 7/39+23=11.3%
Cassell: 7/73+47=5.8%

Now, you will note he’s not very high on this list. However, his number last year was a vast improvement over his career number of 17.4% (52 fumbles on 150 carries and 137 sacks.) Are you really satisfied with a QB who’s going to lose the ball once every six times he gets hit or so?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 22, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's illuminating

You’ve made a good point, and showed some good numbers…

but I think the emphasis SHOULD be on fumbles LOST, not fumbles which are recovered. It’s the fumbles lost, which are turning the ball over to the opposition, that hurt your team — not a ball that’s stripped from your throwing arm, but which a QB falls on to retain possession.

The damage ration of fumbles lost/fumbles not lost is pretty much equivalent to INT’s/incomplete passes, is it not? (Or maybe INT’s/false start penalties, if you want to count the average 5 yd loss on a fumble retained by the QB.)

In any event, my comparison to the figures of Warner and Roethlisberger (each of which had worse ratios and absolute fumble totals than Delhomme — yet both of them got their teams to the Super Bowl) still has merit. Whether you can define Jake as displaying a “penchant” or not is semantics — since worse fumble figures didn’t hurt those 2 QB’s, it can’t be an important stat in determining the worth of a QB.

Can we agree on that?

by bigdavis on Jul 22, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree...

Again, I think whether a QB’s fumble (or any player’s, for that matter) is recovered by his team or the opponent is mostly about luck. And no, the percentage of lost fumbles:fumbles is much higher than INTs:incomplete passes

For the three guys you mention specifically:
Delhomme: 52 career fumbles/25 lost (48.1%); 982 career incompletions/76 INTs (7.7%)
Warner: 91 career fumbles/40 lost (44.0%); 1230 incompletions/114 INTs (9.3%)
Roethlisberger: 32 fumbles/15 lost (46.9%); 716 incompletions/69 INTs (9.6%)

So…it seems the stats bear out the opposite of what you hoped to prove. We’d frankly rather Jake get the chance to throw the ball rather than get hit, because when he does, he’s less likely to throw a pick while being more likely to lose it when he gets hit.

And whether a QB gives up the ball or notIS an important point. It’s one of the main reasons Warner got run out of StL and NY before he landed in Arizona: his hands were small and he coughed up the ball all the time. It’s one of the main concerns regarding whether the Steelers can last with a shoddy line.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 22, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see why you'd disagree with me on that...

I didn’t state it properly…my bad.

It wasn’t the numerical ratios to which I referred, nor did I mean to say that those ratios were equivalent — though that’s what came out. I should never have mentioned the word ratio, as the ratios, which you calculated, are of absolutely no significance. The only number worth looking at, I reiterate, is the # of times one turns it over = fumbles lost.

I meant that the respective effect, or importance, of a fumble that’s lost — as compared to just a fumble (where possession doesn’t change) is comparable to an INT, in relation to an incompletion.

I was making the distinction that, if one is considering fumbles as a factor in evaluating QB’s, it’s far more important to look at the fumbles that are LOST, whereas I believe you were tracking the other number, raw fumble data.

Hence my assertion that Delhomme does not have a “penchant” for (damaging) fumbles.

A lot of the debates around here center on the difference in relying on career stats, or last season stats. That can go round and round forever. To me, if recent year results are better than career, it demonstrates improvement, and should be overstated in evaluation.

(We both feel that Delhomme gets far more criticism than he deserves, I think. Can we at least agree on that?)

by bigdavis on Jul 23, 2009 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But, again...

I don’t think a QB has much control over whether a fumble is recovered or not. Certainly what we can agree on for this point is that he’s got a lot less control over that than whether he coughs up the ball in the first place. And yes, improvement over career stats is a possible sign of improvement, but you’ve got to call such improvements into question for a guy who had over 60 starts under his belt to begin the season. At his age and experience, it would be weird to have seen some kind of fundamental change in his ball-protection skills, particularly in the absence of any new coaching influence (like the kind he’s getting this year.) Still, though, I suppose time will tell and we can hope we’ll see no more Winfield-esque punch and scoop plays.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Typically the QB is closest to the lost fumble,

therefore he is more able to get it, as well as he isn’t in a muddled hole, the lineman have a clearer view.

by Flowing Willow on Jul 24, 2009 5:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but they typically don't anticipate it...

Putting the player who knocked it out in a better position to track the ball and eventually recover it.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Funny..

How out of all these mammoth guys (the contenders) Jordan Gross is the runt.

Yea, though I run in the valley of the shadow of Falcons, I shall fear no evil because Jordan Gross is my shepherd and shall squish all John Abrahams coming near me.

:-)

by Barbados on Jul 19, 2009 5:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Why does only Otah have to live up to the trade?

The plan was to get a RB and a Tackle, just happened that we nabbed Stewart with our pick first. Here’s an interesting scenario: We could have just taken Otah in the 1st, maybe even traded back to get him. Then we could have taken Matt Forte in the 2nd or Steve Slaton in the 3rd. The way DeAngelo performed this probably would have been better. So maybe Stewart should be the one who needs to live up to the trade???

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Jul 19, 2009 9:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That would have been fine with me.

In fact, that was my plan all along. I thought if we weren’t going to get Clady, we should have traded down for our OT and picked up our RB later.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 19, 2009 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No way. The running game needed to be revived after fumbles Foster left. I’m glad they moved up to get Stewart whom out of McFadden and Mendenhal showed that he was durable enough to play a full season(and he was coming off toe surgery). Stewart can start on any NFL roster right now, no way they waited to get a running back later. One other note, I know sacks are part of the game and your lineman are suppose to protect the QB, but maybe if Delhomme was a little mobile and had better pocket awareness, he could actually make plays on his own when the blocking is not there.

by D.W.G. on Jul 20, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Forte and Kevin Smith did ok, no?

I’d have been happy with either one of them. And the vast majority of NFL QBs are not very mobile. Ben Roethlisberger can “make plays,” yet he gets sacked nearly twice as much as Delhomme.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 20, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Deangelo and the o-line are what revived the running game

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Jul 20, 2009 12:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Good post Jaxon. I enjoy these player-by-position posts.

How do ya like the alliteration?

I guess the backup spot(s) will solely be between Schwartz and Cadogen.

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jul 19, 2009 11:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

As it stands, yes....

Then again, who thought we’d even see Omiyale on the roster a couple years ago? Now, he’s moved on and turned into a $20 mil player!

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 20, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was surprised he got so much money

for essentially making one good start against the Chiefs

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Jul 20, 2009 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess they liked their preseason film or whatever, too.

I mean, we liked him enough to put him on our 53-man without having ever started a game.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 20, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't you have to be on the 53-man roster in order to start a game?

But, yeah, I agree with your sentiment that the Panthers saw his ability without him having much real game experience.

by GKB on Jul 21, 2009 4:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gave Cadogan a 3yr deal an basically got into a bidding war w/ other teams after the draft to acquire him; no way he is on the P.squad this year he will make the team along with Schwartz, Bernadeau, an Robinson as the primary o-line backup’s.

Guys likely out will be Palmer,& Willams

by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Jul 23, 2009 11:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think that's a bit of an overstatement.

That bidding war topped out around $25K. If he’s not good enough, he’ll hit the road or land on the PS.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If I get in a bidding war,

but the total comes out to $15, it’s not a war?

by Flowing Willow on Jul 24, 2009 5:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not really, no.

And, more to the point, if you only spent $15 on it, would you really cherish that item very much?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Depends on the item

While it wasn’t much of a war, it was a war nonetheless.

by Flowing Willow on Jul 28, 2009 6:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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