Brayton should start DT next to Kemo

by onlypantherfanintown on Jun 28, 2009 10:06 PM EDT Comment 51 comments

He has already proven his DT skills and Lewis just isn't cutting the pass rush from the inside. Now i know Lewis is a pretty big friggen guy but what if brayton put on 15 or 20 pounds. He could start in the middle and destroy that postion. Imagine having Brayton, Johnson, and Peppers ripping up the backfield every down. If he is strong enough to handle DT then why not? Also, the defensive end postion has more depth than you think so no worries about giving the starters a break. Along with brown coming close to a starting postion, Hilee Taylor is getting better too, his jump off the line of scrimmage is unbelievable, maybe a bit faster than brown and jp.

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Asking a guy who goes 280 to gain 20 pounds is a big deal.

He came out of college at a pretty thick 265. Also, no matter what Taylor’s burst is like, he’s never going to be an every-down end. He doesn’t have anywhere near the strength to hold up at 250.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 10:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

welcome to the blog OnlyPantherFaninTown

You must not live near here!

I can’t see Brayton putting on more weight after seeing him up close. He’s just not built for it. I see Lewis starting next to Kemo and Johnson starting at LDE opposite Peppers. Johnson is more the run stopper or at least he will be this year.

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Jun 29, 2009 8:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

RE; Johnson...

We’ve heard all the right things about him (added weight without losing speed, ready to start, etc.), but only camp and padded work will tell if he’s really ready. Let the best man win!

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2009 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Brayton will only play DT on passing downs or if we have some serious DT injuries in game.

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jun 29, 2009 1:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I don’t know how having Brayton as a full time DT would work well for the Panthers. I think Lewis does a pretty good job in there, at least for the time being. I would only want Brayton at DT on passing downs like you said Will.

by bengoodfella on Jun 29, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What I think we ought to do on some of the passing downs is take a page straight from the Giants’ playbook and put four DE’s on the line. They’d put Strahan, Tuck, Osi, and Kiwanuka on the line and let them go balls to the walls after the QB a couple years ago and called it the “Four Aces” package. We could do the same with Peppers, Johnson, Brayton, and Brown and call it the “Big Cats” or something to that effect.

by bravesfan91 on Jun 29, 2009 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that's the smartest thing ive heard in a while

that would be the most dominant defensive line pass rush team in the nfl

by onlypantherfanintown on Jun 29, 2009 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But how well do they react if they go with the draw?

It beat us many times in the Giants game last year using real DTs on the inside.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2009 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The big cats package would be used on 3rd and long

even the giants wouldn’t have the guts to run the draw play on 3rd and 8. And by the slim chance they do i would give them about a 30% chance of getting past jon and tom in the middle in the nickel package

by onlypantherfanintown on Jun 29, 2009 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

All I'm saying is...

They got past it plenty of times last year.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2009 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not necessarily

Fox runs the draw on 3rd and 8 all the time. At least so it seems.

by LittleKing on Jun 30, 2009 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's just the chance that you take.

Not many teams would use the draw in obvious passing situations like 3rd and long. That’s the chance you take with any personnel package and play though; there’s always something that will work against your defense. That’s why you use a package like this sparringly. If you don’t show it often then its more effective when you do throw it out there and with the speed that our DE’s have, we ought to put some serious heat on the opposing QB with the “Big Cats” package.

by bravesfan91 on Jun 30, 2009 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's precisely when teams like to use the draw.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 30, 2009 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ok, well all I’m saying is that a package similar to what I proposed has worked in the past on a Super Bowl-winning team. There’s ways around, over, or through any defense that gets thrown out there though. This wouldn’t be something that gets used on every third and long, so that when it does get put out there its effective.

There’s an offense to beat every defense, but no team would call a draw every time we throw this package out there.

by bravesfan91 on Jun 30, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If properly coached, the players will be expecting that and maybe even find tendencies in a OLman's stance or how a RB comes out of the huddle.

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jun 30, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yea exactly, in the Big cats package on 3rd and long, the first priority to look for would be the draw. the could pinch johnson and brayton in the middle and have tom or jon playing man on the runningback. Year what do you think of that?

by onlypantherfanintown on Jun 30, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think injuries, fatigue and lack of talent played a big part in that.

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jun 30, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It would be hard for Brayton to even put on 10 pounds

by Heyward is the next crime dog on Jun 29, 2009 11:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I believe Brayton played DT when he played with the Raiders so he might do ok but I think there might have been a reason for him moving to the outside. I think Lewis and Kemo do very well for us though and I think if anybody else is playing there much it will be Corvey Irvin, our 3rd round pick.

by jpow125 on Jun 30, 2009 2:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He also played some for us there last year, along with Johnson.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 30, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He think I can handle him playing there for the Panthers the upcoming year in limited circumstances but I still would prefer he be limited to the outside most of the time. I guess I don’t have as big of a problem as others do with Lewis at DT. He’s not great but he is certainly solid enough to start for the Panthers.

by bengoodfella on Jun 30, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes.

Lewis is not a standout, but he’s certainly at least average.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 30, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I usually hate average players but the Panthers don’t really have better options, and I don’t really include Brayton as a permanent option, so I guess average will have to do again for this year. The Panthers went 12-4 with him in the lineup last year, so he didn’t drag the team down that much. I am sure we will see some Brayton on 3rd downs every once in a while playing inside.

I am not in love with the 4 DE’s on 3rd down on a consistent basis because of the chance of a draw play but I would not mind seeing at least a package that featured it.

by bengoodfella on Jun 30, 2009 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly my point.....

I wasn’t ever suggesting that we do a four DE’s package on every, or even most, of the passing situations. What I was suggesting was a package that gets used a few times a game AT MOST to apply more pressure to the QB with the defensive line (a key part of Meeks’ defense) while the linebackers and defensive backs are dropping into coverage to defend the pass.

by bravesfan91 on Jun 30, 2009 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Part of the reason Brayton was let go

was because he played multiple positions. DE, OLB, DT, you name it, Brayton played it. As a result, he never really got comfortable and put up minimal numbers.

by Flowing Willow on Jul 1, 2009 3:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But that was also part of the reason for his attractiveness to us...

Versatility is a very good thing.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 1, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think the saying goes:

Jack of all and master of none.

I would prefer him to focus on his strengths (stopping the run) and let the other guys (Brown, Taylor) focus more on getting to the QB. I am NOT saying that he should not work on pass rush moves or anything like that. What I mean is, each player needs to know and understand their role. Then do everything they can to be a master at that role.

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jul 1, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I 'spose...

But I don’t think the Pats wanted Adalius Thomas to narrow his skillset when he signed there.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 1, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I never said, nor implied that Brayton should "narrow his skillset".

When I said:

“. . . each player needs to know and understand their role. Then do everything they can to be a master at that role.”

What I mean is that he needs to focus on what we will be asking him to do. Sure the Raiders asked him to play DT and LB as well as DE, but his strength is at DE. Therefore that is what his focus should be. To elaborate further, we brought in E Brown as a pass rusher b/c that was his strength. I see Brayton fitting on THIS YEARS TEAM as more of a run stopper, and potential passing down DT pass rusher.

Any other thoughts? I do not know everything and do not pretend to. If there are other opinions, I would love to hear them.

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jul 1, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think you need starters...

…who can do everything passably well. So, if someone like Brayton is going to play DE, he needs to be decent against both the run and the pass. Same goes for Everette Brown. If these guys are just specialists, they pretty much tip off the offense on what our defense is planning to do. And, in a hurry-up offense, they pretty much cut out our ability to substitute these specialists anyway.

by NSpicer on Jul 5, 2009 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Of course, I completely agree that we need versatile players. I think Brayton, Johnson and Pep give us that type of player, but

. . . every player in the league has strengths and weaknesses. I see Brayton as being better/stronger at playing the run. Do you agree?

I consider Brayton to be a good run stopper and an average pass rusher. With that said, I would love for him to be good or even great at either and certainly both, but not at the expense of his strength and what we really need him to do, stop the run. Fox has always said he wants to “run the ball and stop the run” first and foremost.

DC’s make the package and play call based on the offenses personnel and down/distance. Therefore if the situation calls for an emphasis on pass rushing, then we are going to put in the best pass rushers on the team. Meaning the guys who’s strength is rushing the passer. Of course a no huddle changes things, especially if we have Kemo out there. If our opponent uses a no huddle, then I would feel good about our personnel except for Kemo. I have confidence in our guys (DE and DT) overall ability to play the run and pass.

A real interesting aspect of this discussion is Charles Johnson. Reports have him as being bigger and stronger while still being able to move well. When looking at last year, I would say that he was average against the run and good against the pass. If he continues his progression as a DE, then we may see him getting more of those reps on running downs.

When I watched the Panthers last year, I viewed each player and made my own opinions. To sum up my point, a really good coach puts his players in the best situation to succeed based on their skills and that is what I would like to see September 13.

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jul 5, 2009 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I completely agree...

Brayton is currently a better run-stopper than pass-rusher. Johnson has certainly improved (and bulked up, apparently) and may be a good guy to slot in as the other starting DE, too. But I’m really curious to see how Everette Brown adjusts to the NFL. The Panthers have been playing him like he’ll be the starter…even on running plays. At first, that seems kind of odd…because, as you say, the coaches wouldn’t be playing to Brown’s strength (pass-rushing) or Brayton’s strength (run-stopping).

But, I think a lot of this decision is going to hinge on Ron Meeks and how much John Fox lets him tinker with the defense. If he runs a system like they had in Indianapolis, they went with small, pass-rushing DEs on just about every down. And they counted on their LBs and SS to come up and stop the run. I think the Panthers probably have a better LB’ing corps than they had in Indy. And depending on whether or not Meeks chooses to bring up Chris Harris for run support, he might duplicate some of Bob Sanders’ success for the Colts.

Is that feasible? I don’t know. Everette Brown is going to have to disprove the FSU stereotype when it comes to DEs transitioning to the NFL. Our LBs are going to have to “fly to the ball” a lot more than they have in the past. And our secondary is going to have to play better in man-to-man and press coverages.

But that’s just my two-cents,
—Neil

by NSpicer on Jul 6, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like your point about Meeks.

I did not think too much about that. I would guess that either Johnson or Brayton will play more on “running” downs b/c of how we are built, "run the ball and stop the run" vs the Colts pass the ball and stop the pass.

If you are asking if it is feasible to have Harris be Bob Sanders, (I do not think that is what you were saying) I would doubt that he will be as productive. However, I think we will see a better Harris than last year. I believe that our entire secondary is motivated to step up and improve this year. I also think that Meeks will have a good effect on them as players.

Man, September needs to get here quick! Shoot, I will settle for TC on Aug 3. 4 more weeks.

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jul 6, 2009 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"The Panthers have been playing him like he’ll be the starter"

They have? Everything I’ve seen has said he’s running at RE with the twos behind Brayton.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 7, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

At this point I predict it is Brayton

for his ability to stop the run. On 3rd and long though the pass rush package could be Brown, Johnson, Lewis and Peppers. So Brayton and Kemo would drop out in this package. This gets everyone in the game yet gives the starters some rest.

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Jul 1, 2009 12:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Brayton as a DT starter would certainly be a surprise.

It’d be tough to get Irvin many snaps as the #4.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 1, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would be shocked if Brayton was DT starter.

I have a question MP and I am not questioning you at all, so you don’t have to defend yourself or anything…but you seem to like Irvin a lot and think he is going to be able to contribute this year. What has made you like him so much? I watched a few UGA games this year and did not really remember him that much. I would be really happy if he panned out to be a great part of a DT rotation and just wondered if you knew something I didn’t.

by bengoodfella on Jul 1, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know you were not asking me, but . . .

I know you were not asking me, but . . .
He seems to be a talented project with upside. The coaches SHOULD have confidence in him as they picked him in the 3rd round. So hopefully they have a good idea of how to use him and his strengths, while improving/limiting his weaknesses. Based on who we have on the roster, he should be our #3DT, IMO.

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jul 1, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I definitely agree, I guess I am still nervous from the Atylliah (i am too lazy to look the correct spelling up) Ellison project not working out. I would hope anyone we draft in the 3rd round would be contributor and soon as well.

by bengoodfella on Jul 1, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

FWIW...

Irvin was seen as a reach by most of the draft gurus, while Ellison was seen as a good value for where he was drafted.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 1, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What does "fwiw" mean?

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jul 1, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have no idea. It sounds pretty fancy though.

by bengoodfella on Jul 1, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

for what it's worth

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 1, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't say that I like him, particularly...

But we’ve seen with Jarrett how much a guy can be held back by a lack of game experience, and I’d hate to see that happen with another high pick. I will note that, as WP said, he’s a project, and I suppose it wouldn’t be an awful thing if he only ended up as the #4, but I hope we can get more out of a 3rd-rounder.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 1, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That is a complaint I have as well. I feel like the Panthers don’t always get guys game experience, though I know they have to win a spot on the team, but if they are on the 53 man roster I want to see that player on the roster in some fashion.

I have mentioned this before but sometimes I question Fox’s ability to judge talent or his penchant for giving a position to the veteran. I know DeAngelo Williams made some changes to his game this year but I can’t believe he didn’t get more carries than DeShaun Foster in the past.

Another example is that Jon Beason started last year backing up Dan Morgan at MLB. I understand he held out of camp and was a rookie but a part of me can’t help but think if Morgan was healthy all year Beason may not have seen that much of the field.

I would like to see Irvin in the game a fair amount…and I think he needs to be better than a #4 guy on the line. You don’t get 3rd round picks for that purpose.

by bengoodfella on Jul 1, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Beason

Im not very sure but I think he played outside linebacker alot before Morgan went down and then got moved in. And Morgan healthy a whole season haha.

I also agree with the part about Fox starting veterans over younger players, and I think that is one of the reasons Brown will be a backup.

by jpow125 on Jul 1, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

As well as the facts...

that he needs to bulk up, add strength, and adjust to the NFL game. FSU ends typically have a steep learning curve because they line up super wide. There’s a reason the guy slipped as far as he did.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 1, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's hard to get young guys PT...

when you’re always a playoff-caliber team. Even though there’s always that knock about how we can’t put back-to-back winning seasons together, we’ve rarely been knocked out of the playoffs before Week 15 or 16.

As I’ve said before, Williams vastly improved his game and abilities last summer. There’s a reason every member of the team from the players to the coaches to the staff was raving about how much better he was.

Also, Beason began his rookie season (and started 3 games) as a #1 OLB, where many draftniks also thought he fit in better due to his speed and relatively small stature.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 1, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs