The Biggest Issues With The Panthers.... Here We Go

by Badazzyellaboy on Jun 23, 2009 1:02 PM EDT Comment 40 comments

First let me start off by saying that I am a faithful fan of the panthers. But I am also a realist so here we go. First we will start with the offense. Too predictable... Let me guess run, run, throw to Steve smith deep. can we spread the ball around more besides running the ball twice and throwing quick screens to Steve. No wonder Jarrett has not developed yet because the offense is geared around one receiver. We need a new mindset in Carolina more attacking style offense. New Coordinator. Now for the defense... I don't think we blitz enough. We depend too much on one man to put pressure on the QB. That will never work. And for the biggest part why we will never win.... Jake Delhomme. I will tell you why. 1. Not accurate 2. Too emotional on the field when things don't go right (QB has to be cool and relaxed) 3. Can't see the whole field 4. Forces the ball to Steve (Steve makes great catches out of bad decisions). I know some say well who else. It is the front office's fault because they don't go out and get someone to put pressure on Delhomme as his backup. If he knew someone was waiting to take his spot that had some real talent then we would see what kind of player he is. Either he would focus and play better or crack under the pressure. He knows there is no one looking over his shoulder so he can make bad decisions and for the ball. Please respond with how you see it. Thanks

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Our offense? Predictable?

If it was predictable, we wouldn’t have won 12 games last year. The way you speak about the Panthers offense, you’re sounding like you’re a fan of the West Coast offense. Trust me, as long as John Fox is in Carolina, our running game is going to be the bread and butter of our offense. Plain and simple. If they can’t stop the running game, as many teams failed to do last year, then they will not be able to stop our offense.

As for Jake paying attention to Steve Smith and trying to force the ball to him, I can understand that. He often does that when he takes a good hit and starts playing scared. We saw it when he fell apart against the Cardinals, and once before that when we went up against the Oakland Raiders. Now is that playing emotional as you say? Definately not. If anything, we WANT Jake Delhomme to get pissed off and emotional. Don’t forget what happened during the Bears game when Jake took a hard hit. All of the sudden he becomes Peytan Manning for about two quarters.

Jake Delhomme is not a bad QB. He’s not the best QB in the league either. He’s fairly above average, with a incredibly high ceiling when he’s pissed and a below ground floor when he’s scared.

On defense, I agree with you. We should be blitzing more if our D-Line cannot create pressure and force turnovers.

"Once again the trowsers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn

by Revshawn on Jun 23, 2009 3:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Funny...

Smith caught more passes on 1st AND 2nd down than 3rd.

And Moose sure had a hell of a season for an offense built around one receiver (Smith.)

And Delhomme’s clearly not clear or relaxed. He’s led 19 4th-quarter comeback drives (and 10 in the last 2:00) while alternately crying hysterically and cackling.

Also, could you name this great QB the team could sign to provide Delhomme all this “competition?” Obviously, David Carr’s standing as the #1 pick implies he doesn’t have any “real talent.” Strangely enough, I rarely see the Patriots and Colts be big players on the QB market. But maybe their front offices should be blamed as well.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 23, 2009 4:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Oh...

And teams don’t finish tied for 3rd in the NFL in yards per play because they “don’t attack.”

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 23, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thats a mouthfull Badazz

You say we will never win…with Delhomme? 12-4 is winning in my book. Did you mean win the SB? McNabb hasn’t won one yet either yet look what he is getting paid. I kindly disagree with your first three points on Delhomme and the team in general. We made big changes on the defensive coaching side. Lets give them a chance to make a difference. I don’t have much of a problem with the offense, they scored plenty enough to win 12 games. I personally like the way the Panthers are set up to make a run in 2009. This will be a strong team that has a chance to win every week and though they may not win 12 this year as long as they make the playoffs they may be in a better position due to the hard schedule to make a run in the playoffs. Depends more on the defense in my book vs of the offense.

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Jun 23, 2009 5:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Jake is going to have to look for other players besides Smitty on every play, of course it would help if we had a decent #3 reciever to catch the play and lock down that position.

by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Jun 23, 2009 11:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

it looks like we are making a move on the defensive side of the ball, when you look at the draft…. We went for a DE, and a CB. On offense we are beefing up the best damn running game in the NFL with a 3rd RB. So it looks like we are just making our strong suits stronger, and our weak suits stronger..

by OFC Smith on Jun 23, 2009 11:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

When I saw this thread I thought

Oh look, another Delhomme bashing thread. Well I was partially right, but I didn’t expect a great point to be made about the D. We do need to blitz more, especially with Davis.

by Flowing Willow on Jun 24, 2009 3:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't anticipate we'll blitz any more often...

Ron Meeks runs a system where pressure is applied on the QB from the front 4 DLs. That’s a system Fox already favored to begin with. So I don’t anticipate either of them changing it all that much. Instead, what we DO see so far in the OTAs and mini-camp is that Meeks is encouraging all of his guys to “fly to the ball”…and to me, that means the LBs and DBs are going to be asked to come up and stop the run, then fall back in pass coverage on obvious passing downs as the DLs apply the pressure. That’s the nature of Meeks’ system. And you don’t see a lot of LB or CB blitzes. Occasionally, he’s come with safety blitzes using Bob Sanders, but I’m not sure if our safeties are ready to do that yet.

So, this year is still going to be a building year on the defensive side of the ball as Meeks sorts out which players he wants to keep so he can maximize his scheme. You hear him in interviews talk about evaluating his guys and tweaking his scheme to fit their talents…i.e., implying he won’t run the exact Cover-2 Dungy made famous in Tampa Bay and Indy. And that makes sense…for now. I think down the road, it’s going to prove really interesting to see which players he keeps and how he develops them.

by NSpicer on Jun 24, 2009 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

BADAZZYELLABOY'S RESPONSE

I have read all of your responses and points some of you have. But let me begin by saying this. Yes we did go 12-4 last year riding the running game. What I mean by predictable is that our offense is too simple to figure out and attack. Basic formations, very old school. All we do is run, run and then throw screens to smitty. What I would love for us to have is a dangerous TE. Damn I miss Walls. A great running game will win you so many games in the regular season. But defensive coordinators are too good. If they have 2 weeks to prepare for you for a playoff game they will stop your first option. So whats our plan B when the running game is stopped like last year? Put it on the arm of Jake? I don’t think so. The part that bothers me the most is that I feel every team in the South got a whole lot better. Did we try to improve on our team? Nope. I love our running game it caught a lot of people last year. But you know what, its no secret now. Plus we have the hardest schedule this year. And as for QB I really wanted the Panthers to go and get Garcia just to put a little pressure on Jake. If he falters then we have a proven winner and play maker in Garcia. Even when Peppers was thinking about leaving which I understand why. I think he wants to challenge himself by playing an outside linebacker type position and he know he won’t get that in CAR. So the PATS wanted him. Ok give us Cassel and you can have him lets make a deal. I feel as though the front office is not aggressive enough in free agency. We need some DT help please!! I can’t wait for the season to start. Jake threw for 15 TD’S AND 12 INT (5 IN THE PLAYOFFS) So I will take those away. I am saying for us to be successful this year with teams knowing about our running game and daring Jake to throw. He will have to throw for 25 TD’s or more this year. Can he do it? Looks good on paper but that’s why they play the game. See you in the opener gentlemen!!

by Badazzyellaboy on Jun 25, 2009 8:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Umm...

Almost half of Smith’s catches (36) came from 10+ yards past the line of scrimmage. Care to tell me how he was catching screens 10 yards downfield? Also, Arizona didn’t have two weeks, and they didn’t shut down our run game. How do you figure we didn’t improve our team? We locked up more of our young core starters (Gamble, Gross), and we traded a first-rounder to address one of our team’s biggest needs (the pass rush.) As for Jeff Garcia, it took him until April to get a job, and he’s behind JaMarcus Russell. You really think he’s better than Delhomme? Finally, since when is using a third-round pick and acquiring one of the top UFAs at the position not getting “DT help?”

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 25, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

OH MIKE

Let’s see uuuh 75 yds combined rushing for our attack is shutting down the run. If you hold any NFL team to 75 yds you have shut them down. Williams 63 yds and half of that was with one long run of 31. Let’s move on. Smitty makes Jake look better than he his because of his ability to go up and get the ball. Now I am not talking about locking up our old players but adding to the team that we already have. Pass rushing from the DE position is not our problem. I think pressure up the middle is what is needed. Any DE who is on the other side from Peppers is going to always have just one person to beat because Peppers is getting the O-lineman and the running back. We don’t need a great player on the other side of Peppers. Because if you are a professional athlete in the NFL and you can’t beat your man one on one more times than he beats you then go to another league. Let’s move on. The only reason that Jeff Garcia may not be the starter in Oakland is because Mr. Al Davis has this bromance with Russell. And you know Oakland is no DEMOCRACY!! And what DT are we referring to? I hope not the 36 tackle no sacks Kemoeatu? Or is it the 10 tackle 32 year old Darwin Walker? I just hope the rookie DT come ready to play ball!!! Jake should put Smitty’s kids through college because he is the only reason Jake still has a check coming from the Panthers. But you know what I don’t blame Jake for any of this. Hey if the coach puts you on the field then you play ball. I will hang with Jake I am just uneasy because we don’t have a plan B if he goes down.

by Badazzyellaboy on Jun 25, 2009 1:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

We only ran the ball 15 times!

That’s an excellent 5.0 YPC.

And if Steve Smith “makes Delhomme look better than he is,” how did we manage a 2-1 record without him last year? How did Muhammad lead the NFL in yards and TDs the last time Smith was down for the year?

Peppers is often shut down one-on-one. I suppose you think he should “find another league.”

Every beat writer for the Raiders has said that Russell looks better than Garcia, period.

I’m talking about, you know, Corvey Irvin, the one we drafted, and, Marlon Favorite? Also, DTs aren’t measured by their sacks, period. Pro Bowlers Pat WIlliams, Vince WIlfork, Casey Hampton, and Jamal Williams managed 5.5 sacks last year…COMBINED. Oh, and Darwin Walker’s not on the team anymore, but don’t worry your pretty little had over that.

By the way, there’s a reply button for a reason.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 25, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I love u guys...

We went 2-1 riding a running game that burst onto the scene. Muhammad led the NFL in yards and TD’s once but that was quite some time ago. I would say there are about 2 or 3 tackles that can handle Peppers one on one for a majority of the plays but not many. And don’t believe everything you read, I guarantee Russell will not finish the season under center. lol. Let’s move on to DT land. I know we drafted some rookies but I can’t endorse them until they perform on this level. And the DT’s aren’t measured by sacks comment. Well it all depends on your defensive strategy. Pat, Vince etc.. are great hole stoppers and allow their LB’s to roam free. So with that being we must change our strategy as a defense. In my opinion if you don’t have the big boys upfront to take up those lineman blocks then we have to blitz a lot more to compensate for that. I feel we have been too much of a read and react and letting the opposing offense dictate what we do. Now if we go out and get some big boys then that would make life that much easier for our LB’s to flow. It’s like when the Ravens had the big boys in early 2000’s. Ray lewis didnt have to take on many linemen and his numbers were out of this world. Now when the big boys left or retired his numbers went down but yet he was still very productive. So I figure if we are not going to put the big boys upfront then we need to get more athletic DT’s to try to beat these O linemen from the snap of the ball. It’s like we have DT’s who are not getting a lot of pressure but we are leaving our LB’s and secondary out to dry because they are taking on O lineman at the second and third levels. I don’t know what these rook’s can do but I hope we have a pretty quick one who can shoot gaps and cause a disturbance in the backfield. We don’t need 10 sacks from him just a player that you have to account for.

by Badazzyellaboy on Jun 25, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

As for your “only two or three tackles can stop Peppers”:

In two games vs. Arizona facing journeyman Mike Gandy, who’s usually been a GUARD during his career: 5 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 PDs, 0 FFs

Against Denver and (the very talented but still a) rookie Ryan Clady: 0 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 PDs

In the loss @ATL against aging backup Todd Weiner: 3 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 PDs

Against Chicago and journeyman John St. Clair: 2 solo tackles, 1 assisted tackle, 0 sacks, 0 PDs

Against SD and journeyman backup LJ Shelton: 1 assisted tackle, 0 sacks, 0 PDs

In the loss@TB against second-year UFA Donald Penn: 3 solos, 2 assists, 0 sacks, 0 PDs

And if Kemoeatu isn’t doing a solid job of tying up blockers, how did Beason explode on the scene at a Pro Bowl level as a rookie? How did our YPAs allowed rank in the top of the NFL between Kemo’s arrival and Jenkins’ departure?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 25, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would of liked another DT

but I think we will be fine. Something will happen that we don’t expect, it’s pointless trying to guess. Also Procton, Clady is top five easily, possibly the best pass blocker to come into the league in a long time. Weiner is solid, the Falcons FO just went with the younger Sam Baker. Penn is solid as well, just because he was UDFA doesn’t mean he sucks. Brady was sixth round, would you say, “Oh, the Patriots are starting a sixth rounder at QB, the Dolphins secondary should have a feast today.”

by Flowing Willow on Jun 26, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Weiner just retired because nobody wanted him.

And Penn is average at best.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nobody wants old OT's, even if they can be effective still,

Runyan is out of a job, so is Ogden. Penn is average, but he’s not the piece of crap you make him out to be.

by Flowing Willow on Jun 26, 2009 4:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't make him out to be a piece of crap by any means...

I make him out to be somebody a guy being paid $15 million shouldn’t get shut down by is all.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 26, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lets look at some other DE's

John Abraham sackless vs

Carolina-Jordan Gross

Chicago-John St. Clair

Philadelphia-Tra Thomas

Denver-Ryan Clady

New Orleans-Jamaal Jackson

Saint Louis-Orlando Pace

A lot of those guys aren’t so shabby, yet he was held sackless by St. Clair, same as Peppers. Also for your argument that Pep only dominates some bad OT’s, Abraham got 8 of his 16.5 sacks against Detroit, Oakland, and KC. Not to mention he was shut out by former guard Mike Gandy in the playoffs vs Arizona. Want more proof, lets look at another guy.

Jared Allen sackless vs

GB-Mark Tauscher

TEN-Michael Roos

New Orleans-Jamaal Jackson

TB-Donald Penn

Jax- not really sure

ATL-Baker/Weiner either a rookie or an “aging veteran” ; )

NYG- David Diehl

Tausher Roos and Jackson can be expected, but look who else is on the list. Penn, the UDFA, Weiner the aged, whoever played LT for Jax, and Diehl who struggled a bit this year, prompting the Giants to draft William Beatty. Or if Weiner was on the bench, the rookie Baker, who was nowhere near as good as Clady, held Pro Bowler Jared Allen sackless. Or if you want to go down the road of sacks vs mediocre competition, Allen collected 11.5 sacks vs the likes of Backus of Detroit, St. Clair of Chicago, Brown of Houston, and Gandy of Arizona. How much do Allen and Abraham make, and how much did Pep make last year?

by Flowing Willow on Jun 27, 2009 7:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I love the research! Good job.

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jun 27, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Peppers made $15.6 mil.

That’s almost twice as much as either Abraham ($8.5 mil) or Allen ($8.0 million.)

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 27, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Saints LT is Jamaal Brown

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jun 27, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I realized after I posted, Jackson is the Eagles Center

And the Jags LT was Khalif Barnes, not very impressive. And Procton, I can go on and on with other guys, the point is everyone has bad days. The Ravens had a bad day a couple years back when they lost to the then winless Miami Dolphins. Sometimes inferior competition wins, thats what makes football so great, the unpredictability of it.

by Flowing Willow on Jun 28, 2009 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I understand the point you're making...

But (while it was before last season) I’ve done an in-depth study of the top DEs in the league, and Peppers consistently gets more of his stats against inferior players. In addition, he has more times that he’ll have HUGE games against that kind of competition, so he’s got a higher ratio of no-sack games among his total. It’s not just hyperbole I throw out there.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Peppers

I would like to know if you were the GM, how would you have handled the Peppers situation? For someone to openly say they don’t want to be there but you don’t want to let then go for free.

Me personally, I don’t want any player that doesn’t want to be here. But then again you don’t want to let him go for nothing. So I think the Panthers were right to franchise him. But 16 Mil in a player who doesn’t want to be with your organization. Plus you will more than likely be going through the same thing next off season. So would you have traded Pep. for what you consider under market value? Or just said we are not going to trade you, if you play football it will be in Carolina?

by Badazzyellaboy on Jun 28, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think you took whatever offer you could get for him

If that was only a second-round pick from the Pats, it’s worth SO much more than the pick itself. Clearing out $18+ mil in cap space is invaluable.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe you should post the previously mentioned "study".

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jun 28, 2009 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I did some digging, and, remember, these numbers don't include last season.

A game-changing play once or twice a season is a great thing, but is it worth it when the guy just doesn’t show up for other games? A DE’s job is to pressure the quarterback and stop the run. Everything else is gravy. Julius inconsistently does the former and other teams plan around the fact that he can’t do the latter (that’s why he gets run at ALL the time.) If you really want me to try and tell you more productive players, I’ll do it (and these numbers will be since ’02, so I can make sure I follow your stipulation of “Since Peppers came into the league”:

Julius Peppers has averaged 10.0 sacks per 16/game season. Further, in the playoffs, he averages just over three tackles a game with only two sacks in seven games.

Dwight Freeney? 10.9 sacks/16 games, with 6 sacks in 11 career playoff games. Drafted 9 picks later in the same year.
Now that’s the glaring example, being as they’re from the same class…BUT we can clearly find others.

Aaron Schobel, since 2002 (the year Peppers was drafted) averages 10.1 sacks/16 games, and it would be tough to argue that Pep has had superior talent around him on the Panthers’ line.

John Abraham averages 10.7 sacks/16 (although, to be fair, Pep has never been able to face Wharton at tackle against him.)

Patrick Kearny and Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila average the same 10.0 sacks/16.

Leonard Little averages 10.9 sacks/16.

Jason Taylor averages 12.9 sacks/16!

Simeon Rice averages 12.1 sacks/16!

As to my earlier point about the frequency in which a DE gets to the QB, let’s look at the percentage a player has gotten a sack in any given game in their career (regular season only):

*Peppers: 39% (90 G, 35 G w/sacks.)…he’s also had career-high streaks of: Games w/sack-5 games (2X), Games w/o sack-5 games (3X)

*Freeney: 48% (88/42)…career-highs: 4 games w/sack (2X); 4 games w/o sack (once)

*Schobel: 51% (96/49)…career-highs: 6games/w sack; 5 games w/o sack (2X)

*Abraham: 49% (75/37)… career-highs: 5 games w/sack (once); 3 games w/o sack (3X)

*Little: 43% (81/35)…career-highs: 5 games w/sack (once); 6 games w/o sack (once)

*Taylor: 75% (96/56)…career-highs: 8 games w/sack (once); 3 games w/o sack (2X)

I could certainly keep going, but unfortunately, I have to dash off to work. Good luck justifying your boy’s months without any production again this year!

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Updates with last year's numbers included (Rice did not play last year, so his numbers are the same)

Peppers: 10.6 sacks/16; 42% of games with sacks (45/106)
Freeney: 11.0 sacks/16; 48% (50/103)
Schobel: 9.7 sacks/16; 50% (50/101)
Abraham: 11.7 sacks/16; 52% (47/91)
Little: 10.3/16; 42% (40/95), tied career-long six-game sackless streak last year
Taylor: 11.9 sacks/16; 54% (59/109); established new career-long seven-game sackless streak last year
Kerney: 10.1 sacks/16
KGB: 9.4 sacks/16

I will also note that Little (torn hamstring) and Taylor (calf) were playing hurt last year, although I’ll also say that they shouldn’t have been playing if they were too hurt to do so effectively.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 28, 2009 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So Pep is only behind Taylor, Abraham, and Freeney on sacks/season.

I know that Pep is better against the run than Taylor and Freeney. I would also guess that he is better than Abraham as well (and less injury prone). So he is up there with the best in the league in sacks and he is well rounded in being able to play the run.

I am not saying he is the greatest DE ever to play the game. I am not saying that he never makes any mistakes. I am not saying that he always plays 100% (as a fact, Pep is the only one that can really say that).

What I am saying is that I am glad he is with us and not against us. I would like his cap number to go down obviously, and with the recent chatter, that may just happen.

MP, I am curious about what you think, especially since you are not shy about sharing your opinion and usually do a good job of explaining yourself with examples/evidence for your belief. So I have a few questions.

1. After reading the other study done by Flowing Willow, would you agree that Pep is an elite DE?

2. Would you rather Pep was on our side of the ball on sundays?

3. Is your main beef with Pep the cap hit that he has on the team?

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jun 29, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I only really did the two I would take if I couldn't have Peppers

I like Allens motor and Abraham is a nightmare for us to play. But if those guys are below or less than Peps numbers, maybe the term “elite DE” needs some redefinition.

by Flowing Willow on Jun 29, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Answers:

1. He’s an elite DE…but, looking at how many times he gets shut out, only when he wants to be. To me, that’s inexcusable. Regardless of salary or stature, if you don’t play your hardest every time you go out, you’re setting a terrible example for your teammates, taking advantage of the fans, and delivering a slap to the face of your coaches.
2. Than what? Hard to answer such an open-ended, speculative question. All things considered, yeah, I’d rather we have traded him or just let him go given the production/consistency:cost ratio.
3. No, it’s his effort, although the salary is certainly an aggravating factor. If we were paying him the same kind of money as the other DEs who share similar production with him, I wouldn’t be so frustrated by his inconsistency. Unfortunately, we’re not. We’re paying him nearly twice as much.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Do you think that the FO doesn't know that Pep doesn't try?

If they did, would they be willing to pay him nearly 18 mil this year? I’d think if he was really the slacker that people make him out to be, then we would have traded him long before. And let me rephrase one of Parkers questions, would you want Peppers in the other teams huddle? I know I sure don’t.

by Flowing Willow on Jun 29, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes.

I’d know that the odds of him producing against us would be less than 50%, and I’d know that the rest of their roster would be weakened by his massive drain on their cap.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 29, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like your data and agree on your points.

Fox and company have always maintained that Pep is a complete DE, stopping the run as well as accumulating sacks. I remember Simeon Rice as being a sack guy only. How would you account for the Fox argument (or window-dressing) that a complete DE (Peppers) is more than just sacks? Not sure it’s worth twice, but must be worth something.

What are your stats on his run-stopping in addition to his sacks?

by Barbados on Jun 30, 2009 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hard to really find run support stats...

But among those guys, here are their career run TFL (stuff) averages over 16 game seasons:
Peppers: 4.1; 5.5 career high
Freeney: 4.5; 6.5 high
Schobel: 4.7; 8.5
Abraham: 3.9; 4
Little: 3.2; 5.5
Taylor: 5.4; 6.5 (an incredible FIVE TIMES!)
Kerney: 2.7; 4.5
KGB: 1.8; 3
Also, to add on Allen since he wasn’t well-established enough to include in these numbers before last season:
11.9 sacks/16; 51% games w/sack (39/77); 11.9 STF/16, career high11; career highs of 4 consecutive games w/sacks, 3 games w/o (twice)

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 30, 2009 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Looks pretty steady

he may not get as high as some of those guys but he’s pretty consistent. I don’t think he’s weak vs the run at all.

by Flowing Willow on Jun 30, 2009 7:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Richard Seymour?

He’s always been touted… What’s he look like (numbers)?

Also, seems like Freeney/Shobel are better and more consistent.

Wish there was a stat for how many times double-teamed versus single-teamed. Some of those games in 2007, I swear it “seemed” like a 240-lb tight end could stop him effortlessly.

by Barbados on Jun 30, 2009 8:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Seymour is a 3-4 DE, so it's a little different...

But: 5.6 sacks/16, 3.7 STF/16 (career high 5.5)

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 30, 2009 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And yes...

He’s been handled at times by tight ends and very mediocre tackles. Andrew Whitworth, a rookie guard for the Bengals that year who had to get moved outside when injuries hit, is a glaring example.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 30, 2009 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs