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Panthers Fan Poll: The Great Jake Debate

FILE - In this Oct. 26, 2008 file photo, Carolina Panthers quarterback Jake Delhomme (17) prepares to throw a pass in the second quarter of the Panthers' 27-23 win over the Arizona Cardinals in an NFL football game in Charlotte, N.C. The Panthers signed Delhomme to a five-year, $42.5 million extension on Thursday, April 23, 2009, that keeps their quarterback under contract through the 2014 season. (AP Photo/Chuck Burton, File)

More photos » by Chuck Burton - AP

6 months ago: FILE - In this Oct. 26, 2008 file photo, Carolina Panthers quarterback Jake Delhomme (17) prepares to throw a pass in the second quarter of the Panthers' 27-23 win over the Arizona Cardinals in an NFL football game in Charlotte, N.C. The Panthers signed Delhomme to a five-year, $42.5 million extension on Thursday, April 23, 2009, that keeps their quarterback under contract through the 2014 season. (AP Photo/Chuck Burton, File)

It's become very clear that there is no other topic that will get Panther fans pitted against one another this offseason than when discussing QB Jake Delhomme. There is one thing we can all agree on: Jake had a terrible game in the season ending loss to the Arizona Cardinals this past January. Where the discussion gets tenuous is when discussing what impact that performance should have on Delhomme's starting position in 2009. In this post I've tried to capture the differing opinions from several regular CSR readers, both the "Keep Jake" and the "Dump Jake" perspective. Some of these I've simply clipped from the comments in a couple different posts that are relevant to the topic. I've tried my best to keep it in context but if I've erred please feel free to clarify. At the end please weigh in on my fan poll based on either the arguments presented or just your own opinion if you like.

"Keep Jake" Argument:

 

 

 

 

Star-divide

 

 

 

 

By Micheal Procton

1.  His career winning percentage in starts (regular season and playoffs) is .618, behind only six of the other 23 starting QBs in the league with at least two years as a starter.  And that mark is a lot closer to guys like McNabb (.636) and Manning (.649) than most would think (or the haters would like to admit.  Some of the guys behind him are "studs" Carson Palmer, Jay Cutler, and Kurt Warner as well as 1st-round picks Byron Leftwich, Eli Manning, and Jason Campbell.  As far as I'm concerned, a QB is to be measured by wins more than stats, particularly given the next quality I'll speak about.
2.  Delhomme has 19 come-from-behind 4th-quarter victories in his career.  Out of 55 total wins, that's a real impressive number.  The other thing, too, is that it doesn't matter how he or the team have played over the course of the game.  If we have the ball and a chance to win, Jake is going to look his teammates in the eye and tell them they're going to drive down the field and get the points we need.  And they believe him, just as they have since his first Panthers game in '03 against the Jags.
3.  While I mentioned I don't really think stats are the be all and end all, he's certainly produced some impressive numbers.  He was the QB for both Steve Smith when he won the receiving Triple Crown in '05/led the league in YPG in '08, as well as for Muhsin Muhammad's '04 season when he led the league in yardage and TDs.  He also ranks 22nd ALL-TIME in QB rating, an important measure of efficiency.  Other impressive all-time ranks include being in the top 100 for both TDs and yardage in just 86 career regular-season starts.
4.  Jake plays every game like it's his last, and always leaves EVERYTHING HE'S GOT on the field.  Compare that to a malcontent like Peppers or a whiner like Cutler--either of whom is probably WAY more physically gifted than Jake--and it's easy to see why his teammates and coaches stand by him at every opportunity.
5.  Finally...who would we replace him with?  Along with bringing down his cap number for this year by over 20%, the five new years on the deal average a cap hit of $6.454 million, and 47% of that "new money" is guaranteed.
There were really only two close to comparable QBs on the free agent market:
Kurt Warner (older, lower career winning%)-$11.5 million/year, 65% of money guaranteed. Kerry Collins (older, less successful)-$7.5 million/year, 57% of money guaranteed.

By DaveJinxer

5 reasons to keep Jake no specific order
1. Knows the system
2. Lots of heart
3. Can get the ball to Smith
4. Good game manager
5. Leader

Now the "Dump Jake" Argument:

By DaveJinxer

5 reasons to dump Jake no specific order
1. Getting older
2. Poor pocket presence
3. Forces the ball to Smith
4. Doesn't use his peripherals
5. Coming off major surgery

 

By theBomb.com :

....Second, the Bears gave more than I felt comfortable for Cutler. I would have given a 2nd + Peppers, but that ship has sailed. The same goes for Cassell, but just Peppers straight up. I realize he hasn't signed a long term deal yet. Trades are funny in the NFL, as I never would have guessed Cassell would go for a 2nd nor would I have believed anyone would give up two 1sts for Cutler. I believe injecting youth into the position would have been in the best interest of the franchise.

Also, not trying to use a crystal ball too much, but without a 1st rounder next year, we probably lost our shot at a decent year for QB talent. Obviously, someone could fall, there are diamonds in the rough, blah, blah, blah.

Third, the details of his contract were as follows:

Signed a five-year, $42.5 million contract extension through 2014. The deal includes $20 million guaranteed. 2009: $3.2 million, 2010: $1.624 million, 2011: $1.74 million, 2012: $2.7 million, 2013: $3.66 million, 2014: $4.62 million, 2015: Free Agent. Cap charges: $8.591 million (2009), $4.785 million (2010), $5.745 million (2011), $6.705 million (2012), $7.665 million (2013), $8 million (2014).

This means that comparing his current salary against other veterans is problematic, since contracts are usually back-loaded and he is now starting a new deal while they are finishing out theirs.

Fourth, I fail to see how coming off an injury should among the reasons to keep a player. If that was the reason for his problems, then I feel that hurts the argument that we should have re-signed him. I'm not, however, arguing that the injury was the reason for the Arizona game, or any other game for that matter.

By pancanbra

Your reason number 3 against Jake (Forces the ball to Smith) underlies a larger deficiency in Jake's game. He is pretty awful in going through his progressions when passing. He locks onto a receiver for far too long and is far too obvious about it. If a person sitting at home can tell immediately who Jake is going to throw it to, then the defense probably can too. Usually Jake will key on the featured receiver in the play...wait...wait some more...and then will always check down to the RB if it isn't there. It's rare that he will look for his TE and even rarer still that he will look for his #2 and #3 receivers.

Just watch the number of times Peyton's head will shift during a passing play and you will see an amazing QB go through his progressions.

I love Jake but ... I honestly don't think we will ever win a Super Bowl with him. We can win with him, we can probably even get to the playoffs with him but I think the Super Bowl ship has sailed for Jake. He came close when we had one of the best running games in the league in ‘03 and we had an even better running game in '08 that was single-handedly cut short by our QB. Smith is not getting any younger and logic would have it that unles our defense magically turns into something on par with the Steelers D, Jake won't be able to win the big one.

By Tater596

Ask any team in the league how much regular season winning records count for once playoff time comes around. They count for nothing. They got you there, but now you're on your own to emerge as the greatest team in the nation. If your QB is easily flustered and inconsistent then you are setting yourself up for a heartbreaking playoff loss the moment that first INT happens.

It is true. Carolina needs a game manager at QB. They don't need an offensive centerpiece. They have that in the dynamic trio of Jonathan Stewart, DeAngelo Williams, and Steve Smith. With weapons like that, all you need is a guy who can reliably set up the playaction and make accurate throws. Something that when Jake Delhomme is flustered, he cannot do, and has proven he cannot do time and time again.

I want someone under center who can calmly lead the Panthers to the promised land, instead of escorting them out of it by turning over the ball like burgers on the grill.

So there is the argument from both sides. I'm looking forward to more debate and the results of the poll.

 

Poll
Do you agree with the Panthers decision to name Jake Delhomme the Panthers starting QB in 2009?
Yes, his past performance speaks for itself and trust he can still get it done
273 votes
Yes, but only because there were no better options available
203 votes
No. Jake is well past his prime and cannot get the Panthers to the SB
73 votes
No. They could have brought in a better option/competition
118 votes

667 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 63 comments |

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Comments

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So far not much of a debate

I guess we laid out the argument so well on both sides there is just not much else to say huh? Man I hope Jake plays well this season because otherwise I am going to get a load of crap from some of you!

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Jun 1, 2009 1:55 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think that is the problem

The debate is fun in a hey lets have a debate type of way but in the end every sign points to the fact that the Panthers are going to stick with him.

But the funniest thing about the debate is that if you look at all the points one things stands straight out, Jake’s inconsistent. That is the issue. If Jake was everything that people who liked him was then there wouldn’t be a debate. He wouldn’t be Peyton Manning but no one would be screaming for his head. If he was like what his detractors say he wouldn’t even be in the league. But somedays you get the good Jake, and some days you get the bad Jake.

by Parmenides on Jun 1, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just wonder if sometimes fans tend to forget.

We were one screwed up kickoff from winning a Super Bowl. We were that close. And who what our QB during that year? Jake Delhomme.

"Once again the trowsers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn

by Revshawn on Jun 1, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I remember it very clearly...

and it makes me want us to get back to the Super Bowl that much more. But I just haven’t seen any evidence pointing to Jake being able to take us back 6 years later. Maybe if our defense improves and our running game stays elite then perhaps we’ll get another shot. But right now I just don’t see it. I want to see it, and I’ll be pulling for Jake to make it happen. I’ve always thought he’s had some magic in him after that Jaguars game, but after 5 years and one complete and utter playoff meltdown one’s memories begin to fade.

by pancanbra on Jun 1, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Funny, I'd imagine you had better SHORT-term memory than that...

If the wins against SD, CHI, ARI, NO, etc. weren’t “magic,” I don’t know what is.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 1, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough, he played well in those games…

However, SD, CHI, ARI, NO all had some of the worst passing defenses in the league. Most magic is just an illusion.

by pancanbra on Jun 1, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eh...

It’s hard to say that’s the only thing that made the difference. Honestly, do you really think 15 yards would have stopped them from getting that FG? We were getting no pass rush whatsoever that drive, and Brady was locked in.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 1, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The game was tied!!!!!!! Then Vinatieri kicked the FG to win it. If that play didn’t happen, we would have gone into overtime (maybe). Then we could have won it (maybe). Not exactly one play.

by zrjohnso on Jun 1, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

jake

Jake was playing much better football back then. We can’t use 2003 as a reason to have him start for us next year. He is inconsistent, and all you need are the game day stats to see that. However, for everyone who thinks we need a new QB, me included, we have to admit that there is no one out there who could come in and play as well for us except guys who are out of reach due to contract restraints like Brady, Manning, Brees. We can’t have those guys, and no one who is in reach will be able to perform as well Jake next year. So the debate is fun, but Jake is our best option for 2009.

by usana_gaines on Jun 2, 2009 7:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He was?

2003: 449 PAs, 59.2% completion, 3219 yds., 19 TDs, 16 INTs, 80.6 QB rating
2008: 414 PAs, 59.4% completion, 3288 yds., 15 TDs, 12 INTs, 84.7 QB rating

So yes, his TDs were down, but that had a lot to do with all the TDs that got vultured by our RB duo.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 2, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No risk no reward!

No doubt Jake is inconsistent. He has been in the middle of our biggest successes and our biggest failures. But I stick beside him because so many teams don’t even have the successes. No risk no reward! Let’s give him a shot to muster up a little more magic.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Jun 1, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is my sentiment ST

I can’t argue with the inconsistent remarks because it is true but I’m thinking Jake can still get it done

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Jun 2, 2009 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Patience

But it seems like most SuperBowl winning teams have a pretty long and patient history of building that winning formula. Even the 1st year Gruden’s and the Tomlin’s of the NFL seem to have built off of the patience of their predecessors.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Jun 2, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but only because there were no better options available

He’s decent. Given the salary cap, the Panthers were not going to be able to make enough of a move to be a difference. A team cannot have a superstar WR, a great running game, an exceptional Defense, good Special Teams AND a top-end QB – at least not for long. I’d take an improvement in Defense.

As for Jake – put a copy of Madden in his hands, and teach him pre-snap and post-snap reads, what a TE looks like.

by panthersnbraves on Jun 1, 2009 2:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

HA!

I especially liked the last part of that…“what a TE looks like…” :) Well played sir, well played.

by boywonderncsu on Jun 1, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does he look like Dante Rosario?

You know, the guy Jake threw the game-winning TD to against SD? Or Jeff King, whose 31-yard catch was the big play in our first drive after halftime that sparked us to the big comeback against Arizona? And whose 23-yard catch set up the 1-yard go-ahead TD for Stewart against the Bears?

by MichaelProcton on Jun 1, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Since Jake had success throwing to the TEs on those key plays, I think we all would like him to throw it to them even more. Still doesn’t mean he’s a bad QB.

by zrjohnso on Jun 1, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wasn’t that supposed to be a goal of Jeff Davidson this year to throw to the TE’s more? I know our running game took center stage most of the time, but we never really used our TE’s in the passing game much.

However, it probably would have helped if they caught the ball a little more often……

Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader

by Ivan459 on Jun 1, 2009 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, the defense

for all the focus on Delhomme I think the key to this season will be improved defensive play. Giving up 26 points a game down the stretch won’t get you far in the playoffs for sure.

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Jun 1, 2009 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Completely agree

Although I’m not completely sure where the fault lies.

Scheme?
Fatigue?
Personnel?

I think probably a mix of all 3.

Will this year bring a real change to any of those three? Again, only time will tell, considering we’re not even sure of the starting lineup at this point.

Hopefully heart, motivation, or determination were not at the core.

by the bomb dot com on Jun 1, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I will say this...

After a season in which we had one of the easier schedules in the league, we now are faced with the 2nd hardest schedule in the league. Jake cannot possibly have games like he had against Oakland and Kansas City and expect us to win again. If after facing this schedule we still win and make it to the playoffs then Jake will have answered a lot of his detractors. If, however, despite an elite running game and hopefully improved defense we miss the playoffs with, say, another 7-9 record once again, what are the Panthers going to do? We still will have Jake locked away for another 4 or 5 years and he’s only getting older. Will we just hope for easier schedules and go back to the winning record one year, losing record the next? IF Jake proves to be the major defeciency in our team, I see no way of us being able to rectify it for a few years.

And if people think that playing a hard schedule is an excuse for a mediocre season, let me say that the schedule doesn’t get any easier in the playoffs. So how can you possibly expect to win the Super Bowl if you can’t beat elite teams in the regular season. The Steelers had the hardest schedule in the NFL and practically waltzed there way to another Super Bowl championship.

I hope MP is right, and Jake’s play will improve after another year removed from surgery.

by pancanbra on Jun 1, 2009 4:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The only way we go 7-9 is if we have a season of key injuries like 2004 or 2006.

For all the cynics, I personally think that Delhomme and Fox did not get enough credit for the 2006 season. We lost our LT, C, and MLB in the 1st or 2nd games of the season. Those are leadership positions which are critical in our (and most others) brand of football.

Will Parker

by WillParker81 on Jun 2, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've said this all along...

If you don’t pay attention to the guys you have manning those positions, those are probably some of the places where you’d least like to lose starters.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 3, 2009 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Anyone who uses the argument that Jake can get the ball the Smitty is not using a very great point. Anyone can get the ball to him if they practice with him and learn how he plays. Sometimes Jake’s real problem is trying to hard to get Smith the ball, and it leads to INT’s way to many times (see game against OAK last year).

I voted to keep him b/c we really don’t have much of a choice with Pep wrapping us around a tree with his contract issues, and he is the best option at the moment. Like many pointed out already, this season’s schedule isn’t going to cut us any slack unless PO teams from last year suck this year.

Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader

by Ivan459 on Jun 1, 2009 9:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Whether you believe in Jake or not

…I still think he deserves another chance to show what he has or no longer has. Jake has been a solid player for the Panthers and an excellent teammate to his peers. He gave/gives it his best whether his best turned out good or bad.

Jake had an awful game against the Raiders last season, but the Raiders had a pretty good secondary. He then had a worse game against the Cards in the playoffs, it happened to be his last game, giving fans a bad taste in their mouth that was to linger on, which is why I believe he has taken so much heat. If that game wasn’t his last game, if he had played a few more good ones after, he would have still taken some heat over it, but not nearly as much.

Contrary to what many Panther fans believe, Jake didn’t play that poorly last season. He had a few bad games, one extremely terrible, but he had good games too. Jake’s QB rating for last season was 84.7, that was better than his 2003 season where it was 80.6. Jake’s QB rating last season was almost as good as Donovan McNabbs’ whose was 86.4. As a matter of fact, Jake and McNabb have similar career QB ratings. Jake’s career QB rating is 85.1 and McNabb’s is 85.9.

 I’m not suggesting Jake is almost as good as McNabb, McNabb is far better in other categories, most notable in his amount of TDs compared to Ints, but Jake is comparable in many other areas.

Jake did play awful in his last game, but I think it’s being blown out propotion because it was the last game he played and a playoff game. I still believe in Jake, at least more than I don’t, but I could understand how some fans have lost confidence in him too. Even if I didn’t believe in Jake anymore like some fans, I would still be giving him my support this season because I believe he has earned it.

This is the time that Panther fans can show Jake and his teammates what they are made of. Every fan I know wants his team to sign loyal players to their team, I imagine these players would also like some loyal fans too. I’m not suggesting that this loyalty has to be shown year after year when a player isn’t playing good enough to keep, but at least longer than a couple of bad games followed by a terrible one, especially when that player has given his team as much as Jake has.

by meanoreno on Jun 2, 2009 12:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

For those who blame Jake

…as the sole reason why the panthers lost against the Cards in the playoffs, this following article explains it better than I could.

“That was no more evident than in Carolina’s embarrassing 33-13 home loss to Arizona in the divisional round of the playoffs.

In that game, Larry Fitzgerald burned the Panthers for 166 yards and a 29-yard touchdown, while the Cardinals amassed 145 yards on the ground. Yes, Jake Delhomme had a terrible game, but it wasn’t helped any by the fact that the Cardinals could do whatever they wanted to when they had the ball.

The defensive unit is lucky Jake petered out like he did, because that shifted much of the blame off of their shotty performance."
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/188151-panthers-playbook-plans-for-consistency-on-offense-overhaul-on-defense

by meanoreno on Jun 2, 2009 3:40 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Getting ripped by Warner and Fitz was no surprise

but the 145 yds on the ground was.

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Jun 2, 2009 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The game was over by the beginning of the third quarter.

They amassed so much rushing yardage because they ran the clock out. They only averaged 3.4 yards per carry. That 145 yds is misleading.

by pancanbra on Jun 2, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

After averaging 3.1 the week before against an inferior defense.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 2, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Every loss isn't...

Jakes fault. Our team is and has been notorious for not showing up for games. Seriously. How many times has there been a game we could have won, but some players forgot that it was a game instead of a scrim. I can think of the first Tampa game, the games vs Detroit and Oakland, the last game vs the Cards. The first half of the Atlanta game is a prime example. We didn’t show up and spotted them 17 points. We ended up losing by 17.

by Flowing Willow on Jun 2, 2009 3:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

TE Smoke vs Fire

Only 5 teams had fewer receptions by TE’s. My contention is that Jake’s INT rate would drop if he forced it to Smith less, and actively looked to the other options. Maybe that’s the difference of a game or two.

Was Jake’s performance good enough that the Panthers missed the top NFC seed by a wind-blown missed Field Goal? Absolutely!

Do I think that they can repeat that performance without some improvement from Jake (and a lot from the Defense)? No.

by panthersnbraves on Jun 2, 2009 7:53 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

12 INTs in 16 games is not a bad ratio...

Particularly when seven of those came in two games. 5:14 is pretty incredible, frankly.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 2, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Clarification on my remarks featured in the article, as if noone knew

First of all thanks for featuring one of my comments in the main article, It’s great to be part of the debate. :)

With that said, my comment boils down to a couple things, which all Panthers fans know about Jake, but some seem to be less concerned about than others:

1. The presence of the “Bad” Jake

It would be interesting to see the stats of the “two Jakes” because quite frankly, when Jake Delhomme has his head screwed on straight, and is delivering accurate passes to open receivers (but never open TEs) he is EXACTLY what the Panthers need at QB. Which as i highlighted is “a guy who can reliably set up the playaction and make accurate throws.” However, when he falls off the wagon, we get a guy who isn’t even acceptable at a junior college level. The worst part is, we have no idea when this is going to happen, we all laugh it off during the regular season when we face the likes of Oakland, but our greatest fears were finally realized against Arizona with probably what was our best shot at a Super Bowl in years flushed down the drain. A lot of people want to point out that the game against Arizona could have shown a better defensive effort, well as a former defensive player on a team with offensive turnover problems, it is VERY hard to jog out there all the time when your offense just keeps giving them the ball back. You get frustrated, you get really tired, and you just feel like your efforts are futile.

Here are some of the “Bad Jake” QB ratings from 2008:
Wk2 CHI, 55.3 – Wk6 TB, 38.6 – Wk10 OAK, 12.3 – Wk11 DET, 85.9 – Wk 14 TB, 73.5

While the numbers against DET and TB don’t look horrible, what is discouraging about them is the fact that in those games our running game was absolutely dominant, which is perfect for the playaction pass. Yet still, Jake did not efficiently deliver. DET you will remember was not a secure game until the 4th quarter. TB, we didnt need him to do much due to the running game doing so well, but we DID need him not to throw 2 INTs in a “management” role. Jake also had several games last season where he eclipsed 100 in QB rating, which is why as pointed out by his supporters that he ranks 22nd all time in QB rating, with a rating of 85.1 it is just a hard 85.1 to swallow when averaging games of 110+ rating with games of 50 and below, without a lot of median.

2. The Steve Smith love affair, aka. forcing it to Smitty

The other major point against Delhomme is his predictability once he starts to get shaky, which is what results in bad games turning into horrific “worst of a career” games. He doesn’t check down, he doesn’t look for a TE or a RB out of the backfield… he looks for a very talented, but also very double covered, and very small target in Steve Smith. Smart and talented safeties and corners, like Nnamdi Asomugha and Rashad Baker in Oakland are going to start having a field day against him. Let us examine that Oakland game shall we?

Delhomme stat line: 7/27 72 yds, 1 TD, 4 INT, 12.3 rating
Steve Smith stat line: 1 rec, 9 yds

how did the 2 defenders draped all over Smitty do that game?
CB Nnamdi Asomugha: 1 INT, 2 PDs
S Rashad Baker: 2 INTs, 2 PDs

So, the 2 guys covering smitty knocked down 4 passes, and accounted for 3 of the 4 INTs? Anyone surprised? how about our week 6 loss against Tampa Bay?

Jake Delhomme: 20/39, 242, 3 INTs, 38.6 rating
Steve Smith: 6 recs, 112 yards

And the guys covering Smitty?
CB Aqib Talib: 1 INT, 2 PD
S Jermaine Phillips: 1 INT, 1 PD (INT was for 58 yards)

The point is to highlight the fact that he should learn to find someone besides Smitty and Moose. We have capable pass catching TEs, and a pair of RBs who both can catch the ball and make something happen out of the backfield. If the defense knows who you’re going to throw to, they are going to pick a lot of passes and ruin your day in a hurry.

The final point I’d like to make is this… At the time of me posing this comment, 59% of pollsters were against Jake Delhomme, if for no other reason for lack of a better option. This is the story of the relationship between Panther fans and Jake.

41% of people chose “Yes, his past performance speaks for itself and trust he can still get it done”
59% of people chose either a straight up No. or a Yes, but only because we couldnt afford anyone else or get someone else for another reason. Because lets face it, if you chose “Yes, but only because there were no better options available” you chose No. That is the football equivalent of saying “I’ll have the Fish sandwich, because you’re out of steak and cheese sandwiches, the Cheeseburger is $20, and my other alternative is a chicken salad sandwich that smells like the fish sandwich.” (I figured i’d go for it because my burgers on the grill analogy got such rave reviews)

by Tater596 on Jun 2, 2009 11:43 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Keep the food analogies coming Tater lol!

You make good points my man. So if Jake should throw up a ‘Tater’ is that good or bad?

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Jun 2, 2009 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very good analysis Tater

If I wasn’t drooling maybe I could do better. : D But one thing I’d like to say is, most of the time, when Delhomme forces it to Smith, Smith makes the play. Whenever I play backyard football, I’m the best guy out there. At receiver, whoever is at QB knows if they put it close to me, I will make a play. Now sometimes, they throw it bad, or the defender just makes a great play. It’s like that with Jake and Steve. Steve can and will get the ball a majority of the time, the Green Bay catch, the TD vs New Orleans the first time, 38 yard catch to put us in field goal range the last NO game, TD in the second TB game. both TD’s vs Arizona, the list goes on and on. Now the one hole in my analogy is I’m a six foot guy playing with guys that only come up to my shoulders. But the result is generally the same.

by Flowing Willow on Jun 3, 2009 3:47 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Smith is an incredible player

From the standpoint of “why SHOULDN’T he throw it to Steve Smith” you are right. He is far and away the best pass catching option we have. He is the complete package at wideout, albeit an undersized one. We all know he makes up for what he lacks in size with sheer determination, he has the best “I’m coming down with this football, and there is nothing you can do to stop me” attitude in the game. But, he is still a small target, and when Delhomme is not on his game his accuracy suffers big time. How many times have we seen Fox call the WR Screen play to get the ball into Smith’s hands immediately and let him make someone miss, only to see Delhomme throw either a one-hopper to him, or sail it so far above his head he either can’t grab it, or has to leave his feet resulting in a 2 or 3 yard loss? (btw, on a side note, I see Mike Goodson becoming very valuable as a WR here, giving the defense 2 guys to worry about on that play)

This is where throwing to the TE becomes valuable. It builds confidence, and you’ve got a nice big target to hit. Let’s also hope that Dwayne Jarret finally becomes a factor in the offense, a solid possession receiver is what we will need going forward (to eventually replace Moose)

@Jaxon – It might be good. I usually play QB when i play backyard football and can usually get it done nicely. (i’m 6’4" 300lbs. so since i’m not so fast I get to sling the ball around to people who are, or tuck it and laugh at people who try to tackle me high)

by Tater596 on Jun 3, 2009 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Umm...

I don’t think I’ve seen either of the situations you mentioned very often.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 3, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Our season stunk up the field when Jake was hurt. We got Vinny T.
I wish the rest of you could remember what that was like.
I will never again complain about Jake!!

by tarheelfan on Jun 3, 2009 4:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Competition

The Panthers should actually let the other QBs on the team compete for the starting spot. This anointing Jake the starter before the season ever starts is annoying and quite frankly just stupid. Matt Moore had a pretty decent stretch when given the opportunity at the end of the ‘07 season. Even if he is better than Jake I don’t think we would ever know because he won’t get a chance as long as Fox is in love with Jake.

Also, Steve Smith is an absolute beast of a receiver but come on man. Jake hardly gives the other guys a second thought. Yes, he has come down with some incredible catches but stop throwing in triple coverage. Take the 4 yard dump to the TE and give him a chance to do something with the ball. Remember Rasario? Yeah, he actually plays and can catch the ball. Why are we content with 3 or 4 yards and a pile of dust from the running game but regularly going for the bomb in the passing game (or so it seems anyway)? I know you have to stretch the field but geeze, if they’re playing bracket coverage with a third DB on that side of the field there is probably someone else on the field wide freaking open.

I’m not saying get rid of Jake but at least make him battle it out in camp. Give the other guys a shot. Heck, if all else the backups hopefully get better in case Jake does go down.

I know some of this was already stated but just felt like ranting once I saw this going. Ahhh, I feel better now.

by Olie0923 on Jun 4, 2009 12:09 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes, I remember Rosario well

…he was the TE that can make a nice catch at times, then tip the ball so it’s intercepted the other times. He was quite good at getting false starts too.

Also, if Matt Moore plays this preseason like he did last preseason, it won’t be hard for Jake to beat him out, like it wasn’t hard for him to do last preseason. Last preseason Moore had a 53.8 completion percentage, he threw 3Ints to 0TDs and had a 52.7 QB rating.

by meanoreno on Jun 4, 2009 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh...

And led ZERO TD drives in 19 chances. Against backups.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 4, 2009 2:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We've done that...

David Carr=FAIL

And please give up on Moore’s “decent stretch.” In the only game where the other team was actually trying to win (DAL), he was awful.

And yeah, Jake hardly looks any other reciever’s way at all. That’s why Muhammad went for 923-5. But let’s not stop there. Smith caught 31.7% of Carolina’s passes last year.

Roddy White-33.2%
Andre Johnson-31.3%

So it’s not like he’s leading the league in being featured as a #1, much less by any wide margin.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 4, 2009 2:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not saying his catch # is to high

I’m not trying to say that Smitty gets to many touches, becuas he is indeed on par with other elite receivers in the league. I just think he gets to many looks. So many incompletions could have been completions if they were thrown to another, more open, receiver.

by Tater596 on Jun 4, 2009 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll buy the argument that...

…sometimes Jake “locks in” on Steve Smith. He certainly doesn’t go through his progressions like some of the more elite QBs do. And he sometimes holds onto the ball far longer than he should, because he’s waiting for Smith (or someone else to get open). He also “forces” the ball sometimes and it results in an INT. Personally, I think all that happens because Jake is trying to make something happen by looking for his star receiver…a guy who has demonstrated time and again that he can a) take it to the house and b) fight for every ball with more heart and determination than the two or three DBs trying to stop him.

More often than not, all of those risks Jake takes results in a win for the Panthers. And what’s the most important stat in football? The win-loss record. Forget about the number of INTs…the number of sacks given up while holding the ball…even the fumble-itis because he doesn’t see a blitzer coming as well as other guys. As long as Jake keeps getting us in the playoffs. And as long as he’s got one of the best winning percentages of any postseason QB, he’s who I want behind center.

Not an inexperienced guy (like Matt Moore) who showed some flashes in games that didn’t mean anything…and who subsequently hasn’t shown well in preseason games against backups. And not a Mickey Mouse gloved QB (like David Carr) who really held onto the ball too long and couldn’t get it to Smith when it mattered. And not the new guy (i.e., Josh McCown) who’s still learning the offense. And, lastly, not even a QB with Pro Bowl potential (like Jay Cutler) who would have cost the Panthers way too much to even try and obtain him.

Nope. We have Jake Delhomme. He is a “love him sometimes” and “hate him sometimes” QB that…when it’s all said and done…brings more positives to the table for our team than the negatives that armchair QBs and coaches think he does. Everyone from the players to the QB coach to John Fox has confidence in the guy. And if fans want to second-guess all of those people, I think they’re deluding themselves that there’s something better out there. Because there isn’t. And there might never be.

That’s because John Fox (who calls the shots with regards to the football philosophy of this team) favors the running game and a strong defense over having a perennial Pro Bowl QB. That’s his winning formula. And it’s worked out pretty well for the Panthers under his tenure. A Superbowl appearance. An NFC Championship. Another appearance in an NFC Championship game. And multiple NFC South division championships as well. So, not only do I trust in Jake Delhomme. I also trust in John Fox’s football philosophy. Because it takes us places.

Now fans can bemoan the fact that we haven’t gotten over the hump and won the big one yet. And I can understand that. But I also understand that great QBs like Peyton Manning and John Elway took a long time to get their teams a Superbowl ring, too. Just because you have a Pro Bowl calibre QB (or even a future HoF’er), doesn’t mean they’ll win a Superbowl for you. Instead, a steady, solid approach to building the fundamentals of a team does.

That’s what John Fox is building. And he’s using Jake Delhomme as an important part of it. I’ll trust his judgement in that regard way before I trust the fans who only go by what they see at home or in the stadium. And that goes for me, too…because I have that same seat at home and in the stadium as everyone else. But I’m most definitely not qualified to say Jake’s not fit to QB the team…or to second-guess Fox’s decision-making. In fact, I’m quite please that we have both Jake and Fox leading this team right now. Anyone who doesn’t simply has no clue what goes into the game of football. They’re only reacting based on what they see…and not the reasons behind what they see.

But that’s just my two-cents,
—Neil

by NSpicer on Jun 4, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hear, hear!

“Hear, hear!” means “I agree heartily with the previous speaker.”
http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/46/messages/692.html

by meanoreno on Jun 4, 2009 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How do you know?

That’s speculation at best.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 4, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To which part...

…of my “two-cents” are you referring? Anything that any of us post here is “speculation” and opinion anyway. It’s all a best guess based on observation by attending games, watching games, absorbing the commentary of not only other sports analysts but also doing some of our own analysis around the stats, the replays, and trying to read between the lines in what some of the players say.

I’m no expert. Just a fan…
—Neil

by NSpicer on Jun 4, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not you.

I was talking about this above:

So many incompletions could have been completions if they were thrown to another, more open, receiver.

PS: you can always check which post a reply is referring to by using the “up” button.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 4, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Against Dallas

it was the #1 team in the NFC, the defense put them in an early hole, and he was sacked 5 times!!!!! So he actually played well given the circumstances.

by Flowing Willow on Jun 6, 2009 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry...

Poor pass protection wasn’t an excuse for Carr or Delhomme at any point in their Panthers careers, so I don’t know why it should be for Moore.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 7, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not an excuse for whom?

Being sacked every other play ruined Carr’s career, that and holding onto the ball too long. Being hit and hit and hit really ruins your confidence. Delhomme was hurt because of shoddy pass protection in 06, granted we were missing two starters at two important positions, but because of that he didn’t have the time he was used to. Moore was also in an early hole and still almost pulled off a win!!! Also lets not forget, Dallas was the best team in the NFC!!!!

by Flowing Willow on Jun 8, 2009 5:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And the defense still held them to 17.

If we had a competent QB in the game (or if that ridiculous call on the Drew Carter bomb had actually been made), we should have won.

And my point was that I’ve rarely seen the two guys I mentioned given a break because they were taking sacks. For both of them, I’ve always seen them blamed for either holding the ball too long or not getting through their progressions fast enough.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 8, 2009 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Both QB's do have those issues

Carr does hold on to the ball too long, and Delhomme has had trouble with his progressions his entire career, that’s part of the can Jake argument. Pressure and sacks just makes those problems worse. You also have to remember, analysts have favorite, and non-favorite players. If Manning was sacked, it was either a great play by the defense, or a bad play by the O-line, seldom is it Mannings fault. Now if Carr or Delhomme are sacked, it’s their fault. Now back to Dallas. The score was 20-13, Dallas had 405 yards of offense, 148 on the ground, we ran the ball 14 times and we were in an early 14-0 hole, that’s when I found something better to do. : ( Also, conservative coaching and bad luck killed us. We drove to the goalline down by ten, Hartwig goes out to injury, Kalil comes in, two straight sacks later and we are down by 7 instead of 3. Then after another field goal made it 20-13, we decided not to go for an onside kick, and Barber ran for a first down, and it was over. Moore played pretty well, he had one bad read, which happens, and his only legit target was Smith, as evidenced by Smitty having 9 of Moore’s 14 completions. If we put Moore in our offense now, he’d have better targets, better protection, and a better run game. Add him in in a year or two, and I think we have a perfectly good starting QB.

by Flowing Willow on Jun 10, 2009 3:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dang it! I always have issues italicizing and bolding. : (

by Flowing Willow on Jun 10, 2009 3:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just don't agree...

I don’t think he was very impressive in any of his games his rookie year (throwing out the TB non-effort.) In the two other games where the other team was trying, he led us to a whopping 13 points, and in 19 series against backups last preseason, he led ZERO touchdown drives!

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 10, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think he played decent

you think he played bad, we’re at an impasse. After this preseason we can judge again.

by Flowing Willow on Jun 11, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah...

My bad. I just saw it following my post and didn’t notice it was aligned with same “replied to” post. Thanks for the tip on the “up” link.

by NSpicer on Jun 4, 2009 3:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I just discovered its use last night.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 4, 2009 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you were Jake

in the Arizona game…….with the defense blitzing the hell out of you, blocking the throwing lanes, and with really only one dependable WR……..Smitty,………and the OC kept sending in passing plays, just what would you do to try to put points on the board. For the life of me; I’ll never understand why we didn’t ram Williams & Stewart down their throats all night. However; Jake does not call the plays; he simply tries to make them work. That said; I’d have liked to have seen him throw away a few passes rather than throw into double or triple coverage. One thing I noticed in that game was the rushers getting very high & in his face all night. Jake was on his back quite a bit. Also; there’s no way he could see some of the coverage, nor have time to find secondary receivers. The Cardinals came to play that night, while most of the Panthers looked like they were sleep-walking. The week off did them no favors. I suppose my main point is that there really isn’t much of an option, other than Smith on the present team. The rest of the WRs are pathetically inconsistant in the pass-catching department. When all is said and done; many parts of that game were terrible………not just Jake’s play.

Geaux Panthers !!!

by koala on Jun 4, 2009 11:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I know I'm Late to the Debate But...

I have to whole heartedly agree with Tater596, Jake’s inconsistency kills us. And we never know which Jake we will get. The Detroit game was a prime example of the Panthers winning despite Jake. It’s hard for a wideout to be productive(aside from Smitty) if they have to chase almost every one of the few balls that come their way. Jake is an average quarterback with an average arm. With that said, we are stuck for now. The backups are just that, backups. I don’t see either one winning over the starting spot. I just hope that our running game and our defense will be good enough to keep Jake from having to make plays this season. Besides it is tough to be above average at all aspects of the game, right. So let’s go Panthers!

by DEEZEY on Jun 5, 2009 4:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...

Muhammad wasn’t productive at all.

Average quarterbacks DON’T win 60+% of their games.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jun 5, 2009 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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