Panthers Top 4 Position Battles - Defense
by Jaxon on May 12, 2009 12:30 PM EDT
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When trying to predict whether an incoming rookie will unseat a veteran from their starters role in Carolina the common wisdom based on past results has been that John Fox prefers the vets. It makes sense to most I imagine, the more experienced players will perform better under fire, when the game is on the line. Yet that has not necessarily the rule in all cases, FS Charles Godfrey being an example of an exception. You could also point to LB Jon Beason and C Ryan Kalil, who after a single season took Justin Hartwig's spot as additional examples of Fox going with the younger player. So do the Panthers have any rookies that will be thrust into the starting line-up when the Eagles roll into town? Let's start with a look at the defense where three rookies will do just that, challenge for three of what I'm calling the Top 4 position battles on defense.
Left Defensive End
The assumption here is that Pro Bowler Julius Peppers will return and secure one of the starting positions, we will say the right side for this post. That leaves veterans Tyler Brayton, Charles Johnson, Hilee Taylor and incoming rookie Everette Brown to battle for the other spot. My other assumption is that the Panthers will only keep 4 DE's as they did last season. So do you think the rookie will be given the other spot straight into Training Camp? I'm not so sure. The initial thought is 2nd year man Taylor is the odd man out being a 7th round pick. Brayton has the benefit of also being able to play inside at DT in certain packages and Johnson has shown some promise coming off his 6 sack season. Here's my prediction: Charles Johnson wins the LDE spot because of his improved run defense play but gets replaced on 3rd down (unless its 3rd and short) by Brown. Brayton will come in on 3rd down as well in place of DT Maake Kemoeatu which leaves Taylor on the outside looking in.
Nickel CB
I'll make my prediction on this one quick. The nickel CB spot will be rookie Sherrod Martins job to lose from day one, just as Charles Godfrey was thrown into the FS fray at the outset. Though it will advertised as a position battle Martin will run with the first team nickel package (if there is such a thing) leaving CB's Dante Wesley and CJ Wilson in back-up and special team roles. Only if he struggles to learn the coverages, which I'm doubting would he not stay in this role.
Strong-side LB
I completely missed on this one last year. I really doubted the Panthers would have paid LB Landon Johnson so much money to be a back-up last season. The fact he is coming back says he and incumbent Na'il Diggs will battle yet again. Diggs has held off challengers for three seasons now but this just may be the year he gets ousted, or will it? I would love to say Dan Conner has a shot here but he seems to be pegged as the back-up MLB. Something has to give there but I don't think it will be this season. My prediction is that Diggs keeps his spot leaving Johnson a back-up yet again who will be looking for a new job next offseason. Conner will serve as a key back-up for one more season.
Right DT
If Damione Lewis fully recovers from his shoulder surgery then I think there's no doubt he is the starter over rookie DT Corvey Irvin come game one. He has the experience and had a pretty good season in 2008 until getting injured. Irvin though could crack the line-up later in the season though as I just don't see Lewis staying injury free the entire season. Irvin will push Lewis in TC and will get a lot of praise from the staff for his ‘motor'. As much as I want to say Irvin will win it I don't see it this year.
So any disagreements? I want to hear from you.
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Irvin should get....
..a lot of work in rotation, and if Lewis goes down he is the man, but I don’t really think he has much of a shot to unseat Lewis. Hille Taylor might make the PS. CJ Wilson is definitely in the running for the nickelback role, as I’ve heard the staff really likes him. If Captain impresses, he could get the job, but at the start I think Wilson and Martin will be equalish. SLB the a-NAIL-ator Diggs will hold off all competition against all odds, again.
by Flowing Willow on May 12, 2009 12:41 PM EDT reply actions
Taylor has no more PS eligibility...
because he spent all of last season on the active roster.
by MichaelProcton on May 12, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Not quite the whole season
Taylor was active for 10 games last season; 1 game in September; 4 games in October; 4 games in November; and 1 game in december. He was put on the inactive list for the other games, like when they played the Giants. I think it was due to injuries, but I’m not sure. “Panthers list Week 16 inactives: The Panthers inactives for Week 17 at the Giants include QB Matt Moore (3rd), WR D.J. Hackett, CB C.J. Wilson, LB Adam Seward, DE Hilee Taylor, WR Kenneth Moore and DT Maake Kemoeatu.
(Updated 12/21/2008).” http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1615614
Even though he was only active for 10 games, he’s still not eligible for the PS..
“After noon EST on September 2nd, each club may establish a Practice Squad of no more than eight (8) players who are free agents.The practice squad shall consist of the following players, provided that they have not served more than two previous seasons on a Practice Squad: (i) players who do not have an Accrued Season of NFL experience; and (ii) free agent players who were on the Active List for fewer than nine regular season games during their only Accrued Season(s).” http://blogs.thenewstribune.com/seahawks/2007/09/01/practice_squad_rules
“Each NFL team may keep up to eight members on their “practice squad” in addition to their 53-member main roster. They consist mostly of rookies who were cut in training camps and borderline NFL-caliber players. Both rookies and young veterans are eligible for the practice squad. However, a player cannot participate on the practice squad for more than three seasons, or if he has accrued a year of NFL experience (six or more games on a club’s 53-man active roster or official Injured Reserve list.)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practice_squad
No...
The active roster is the 53-man. Even though he was not getting jerseys, he was on the active roster.
by MichaelProcton on May 13, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I know
the active roster consist of 53 players, but I was thinking you thought he was one of the 46 players on the active list in every game last season. That’s the reason why I pointed out he was only active for 10 games. I didn’t pick up the word “roster” at the end of your sentence.
Good show.
I don’t think Na’il Diggs will be challenged that much. Talk last year was that the team wasn’t that impressed with Landon Johnson and that he could be considered a bust signing.
I bet Corvy Irvin cracks the starting line-up around game 12-14. The aging veteran starts to wear down and the rookie learns the system. Our run defense takes a step up as a result of it as we begin our playoff push.
I’m still eagerly awaiting word on Dwayne Jarrett. The team seemed to be singing his praises last year, but his statistics weren’t encouraging. Also don’t forget the tight end battle. Can Gary Barnidge get into the starting lineup? He would provide a pretty big target up the middle and a big blocker to boot.
"Once again the trowsers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
I second that..
I’m still waiting to see what happens with Dwayne Jarrett.
by boywonderncsu on May 12, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I just hope the coaching staff has some faith in him and he has worked hard to contribute to the team this upcoming season. It has been pretty clear so far they don’t have a lot of trust in him because he rarely gets on the field. Of course it also doesn’t help too much that we don’t go 3 WR with actual wide receivers.
by bengoodfella on May 12, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
"Big blocker?"
He’s two inches taller than King, but 15 pounds lighter.
by MichaelProcton on May 12, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
But my point...
was that he hardly fits the extra-OT mold the Panthers have used at TE in the last few years.
by MichaelProcton on May 12, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Irvin and Hayden
These guys remind me of Kindal Moorehead and Jordan Carstens as back ups. Hopefully neither will have to start.
I think the Hayden comparison is accurate...
But Irvin is cut from a different cloth. He’s bigger and more skilled. He’ll probably need to do some learning and improving, but he could be starting material down the road. One would expect that out of a third-rounder, anyway.
by MichaelProcton on May 12, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Bigger?
Kindal Moorehead 6’2" 299, Jordan Carstens 6’5" 300, Corvey Irvin 6’3" 301, Nick Hayden 6’4" 292. Since you like to nit pick what everyone says on here MichaelProcton, even about size, I think these are pretty similar bodies. Here’s another guy I think about: Atiyyah Ellison. Drafted in the third round, maybe could have been starting material down the road, but never worked out. I talked to Sal once about Ellison, and he told me that he had all the ability in the world, but didn’t have the intelligence or work ethic needed to make it. Like Irvin, he was a late-bloomer that went to community college before going to Missouri. I really hope Irvin makes it as a starter, but I think there are a lot of similarities between him and Ellison on paper. For 2009, it would be great if Irvin could be a quality backup in his first year. I think it’s asking too much for him to be a starter this year.
It certainly takes more than size to make it
Carstens would have been a player if not for the kidney disease. You won’t know if Irvin can get it done till the pads get put on. He would seem to have all the tools a coach like Ron Meeks would need in a DT. Just needs the experience and opportunity.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
DT
I think that if Irvin can learn the offense well enough, he’ll get more PT early in the hopes that Lewis plays fewer downs in the first half of the season and is fresher for December and the playoffs. I think that may be a good reason for Hayden and Irvin to get more PT.
by usana_gaines on May 13, 2009 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree that Taylor could easily go. A guy who was inconsistent in even getting a jersey last year is going to have a tough time making the squad with two new draft picks at DL. Also, it’s worth noting that Johnson played a bit on the inside last year. A Peppers-Brayton-Johnson-Peppers line doesn’t seem all that unreasonable in passing situations. However, I’ll be interested to see what Brown has to offer against the run. That will say a lot about how much of a chance he has to start over Johnson or Brayton.
Agree that Martin will have a big leg up on the competition at nickel. You can’t use your #2 pick on a guy who’s no more than third on the depth chart. Still, though, there could be some growing pains as he transitions to being more of an M2M guy on the LoS after playing a lot of read-and-react zone in college at safety.
As for LB, I’ve been wanting somebody to replace Diggs for a few years now, but the guy just keeps winning the job. It was a surprise to see Johnson struggle so much last year, but the word on Cincy LBs is that the system Marvin Lewis runs allows for good numbers from players who aren’t very good. There have been several guys who have gone from starters there to being out of the league in a few short years: Brian Simmons, Kevin Hardy, Adrian Ross, Ahmad Brooks, Caleb Miller, Anthony Schlegel. Still, Johnson has played in all three LB spots, and he’s still young. Connor, too, is young and talented, but I’d imagine their versatility is something that will make them more valuable backups than Diggs would.
I don’t think Irvin is good enough to be a starter right out of college. The motor is nice, but I think both Lewis and Kemoeatu both have far more well-rounded games.
Oh...
I should mention that if Diggs can stay on top of his game, we should certainly keep him around until his contract’s up in two years. He’s locked up for less than $1 mil, and that’s a great value for any starter.
by MichaelProcton on May 12, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe the only thing going for Taylor is that he is that smaller type rusher that worked for Meeks in Indianapolis. Of course he has to show that type of skill which Mathis and Freeney have. I think you meant Peppers-Brayton-Johnson-Brown line in passing situations. I would be a little afraid teams would try to run a shotgun draw or something if we lined up 4 DE’s in a passing situation. I still think we need someone who is a natural DT in on passing situations.
I hope Martin is the nickel corner this year. You are right you don’t spend a #2 on a guy who isn’t a #3 corner at least. He is definitely mature enough for the job, that’s for sure.
I really don’t think Irvin will start either, I see him being a part of the second rotation for this year.
by bengoodfella on May 12, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Taylor is smaller...
Than a guy like Mathis ever was. As for that 4 DE line in passing situations, it worked well for the Giants during their SB run, and both Peppers and Brayton have DT-worthy size and Brayton has played a SIGNIFICANT amount of time there.
by MichaelProcton on May 12, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
If we can get the opponent to run on 3rd & long
because we have 4 DE’s on the DL then the scheme is working. Our LB’s should then make the play.
A key for Brown is how he stands up against the run. I think he will need a year or two to get more strength and technique in that regard but I am excited about what he can bring immediately to the pass rush.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
I absolutely agree that...
…no matter what, our LBs are going to have to step up the run-stuffing this year. Beason played hurt a lot at the end of last season. And Connor was already on IR. Meeks runs a system where guys should be flying to the ball. That includes LBs and the safeties. That frees up the DEs to focus more on rushing the passer or putting pressure on the edges of the line in run situations. I can’t wait to see how Meeks lines them up in training camp and preseason. That should tell us a lot about how much they’re going to change vs. how much control Fox may continue to exert.
Taylor is not
…smaller than a guy like Mathis ever was.
Robert Mathis
Height: 6’2 Weight: 245lbs
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6474
Hilee Taylor
Height: 6’2 Weight: 250lbs
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/8998
Not to be rude, but there is a reason I rarely pay attention to what some people write. I know what I am saying and just because Brayton has played there a lot doesn’t mean I want him to continue playing DT on passing downs a lot. If it works great, but Brayton also has played LB but I am not looking for him to play LB at any point.
by bengoodfella on May 13, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah...
Oddly enough, Taylor somehow grew 18 pounds between the draft in April and camp in July. I find that TOTALLY credible.
by MichaelProcton on May 13, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Either way, ESPN had him at 232 lbs and SI had him at 240 at draft time. Maybe he ate a lot. It is not unheard of for a player to attempt to gain weight at the request of the team. Especially a DE who is below 250 pounds. I don’t see this as incredibly unbelievable. I think I could gain 18 pounds in that time between eating more and muscle gain.
by bengoodfella on May 13, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right
His goal from the start was to put on 10 pounds.
“But Taylor talks like a guy who’s willing to do whatever it takes to be a difference-maker at the next level. When asked on Monday what he foresees his role being this season with the Panthers, Taylor eagerly responded, "My role is to give it up for the team, to do whatever they need me to do.
“Right now they want me to be a pass rushing guy and contribute on teams. I’m happy with that. If I make my mark there, maybe I can eventually be an every-down defensive end.”
Taylor said his goal is to gain about 10 pounds and maintain a playing weight around 255 pounds.
That, he figures, will help him against the league’s bigger offensive tackles.
He idolizes Jason Taylor, the Miami Dolphins’ five-time Pro Bowl defensive end who has 117 career sacks. While Jason is about three inches taller than Hilee, he only weighs in at 255 pounds.
Hilee believes he can be that same type of player for the Panthers if he puts on a few pounds.
“Jason Taylor is the guy I pattern my game after,” Taylor said. "He’s a little taller than me, but he’s a high-motor guy and doesn’t let his weight "
He looked bigger for sure by the time the season started
He’s still pretty fast so will give the other guys a run a for their money. I think the Panther brass likes Taylor. On the other hand the Panthers may think they have enough 3rd down specialists. Should be fun to watch.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
I agree
…it should be fun to watch. With peppers on the team they should be set at DE. They now have two DE that were drafted in the 1st round with Peppers & Brayton, and two DE that were projected to be 1st rounders with Brown and Johnson, especially if he stayed another year in college. Also, the potential of Hilee Taylor. I believe this enough talent for Meeks to work with.
Here’s a site that had Johnson going in the 1st round at the 18th pick in the same year he did enter the draft. Although, they also had the Panthers picking Jarrettin the 1st round with the 14th pick.
“14. Carolina – Dwayne Jarrett, WR, USC: This one is tough to call because I feel like the Panthers could look at a DE with Mike Rucker’s position up for grabs. However, with Keyshawn Johnson on the way out, the Panthers need to be able to take some pressure off of WR Steve Smith’s shoulders.
18. Cincinnati – Charles Johnson, DE, Georgia: The Bengals could use another pass rusher and that is what Johnson would give them."
http://blogs.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2007/02/post_4.html
Here’s a different site with the same thinking on Johnson.
“Todd McShay of Scouts Inc. and ESPN said before the Chick-fil-A Bowl that the 6-foot-2, 275-pound Johnson could be a late first round draft pick. Johnson did nothing to hurt his stock in the win against Virginia Tech when he had two sacks, three tackles for loss, a forced fumble and a pass breakup.
ESPN draft analyst Mel Kiper ranks Johnson as the second best junior defensive end prospect."
http://onlineathens.com/stories/010207/football_20070102047.shtml
Agree on Brown
I see him coming in on third and long for sure. I like either Brayton or Johnson as the starter. I read somewhere that Johnson is considered one of the strongest on the team, pound-for-pound. If he can improve on last years performance, I’m feeling good about Johnson and Brown as the future starting DEs on the team. I still like Lewis at DT on third down.
i agree and disagre
I do think connor has a chance to start at ROLB, regardless of if he is the best backup to beason, shouldnt you have the best players on the field? i do believe he can dethrone diggs, and be switched to mlb if need be. also i do believe barnidge gets more playing time, but king do have reliable hands, but its not like he goes out for passes very often, also they may keep all of those DEs, we lack depth at DT and brayton def helps there, maybe they keep he as backup with irvin, and also switch him out at DE, with the defense that meeks runs, i cant see to many 3rd and longs, but i dont shun the idea of the 4 DE’s. i do think charles johnson will start opposite peppers, he has great speed and could be a beast coming off the edge, he also was a 3rd rounder, and going into the 3rd year should make a good impact, 6 sacks for 2nd string DE isnt too shabby if you ask me, heck its more then starter peppers from 2 years ago(2.50). also i do believe munnerlyn will be a huge surprise this season, he may be a 7th round pick i do expect him to beat out CJ and Wesley, he is a ballhawk.
Conner has a bright future
It may not start in ‘09 but I wouldn’t mind if it did
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
I agree
…with you about Connor having a bright future.
The kid is a player
a ‘tackling machine’ I believe is the phrase used. I’d love to see him win the SLB position.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Same here
I too would love to see Connor starting at SLB. He’s excellent at shedding his blocks and making the tackle. He just has a knack for slipping of the block in order to make the plays. He would be a big help against the run. The only draw back I see is him having to cover TEs at the SLB position, especially with every team in the NFC South upgrading at the TE position (Gonzales, Winslow, and Shockey). That will be hard even for a fast, good covering LB which Connor isn’t known for exactly. I don’t know if Diggs or Landon Johnson could do much better against these same TEs though. It’s too bad that Thomas Davis’ cup of tea wasn’t the SLB position because then Connor could have started at WLB.
Great article Jaxon
I have really been enjoying reading yer stuff as of lately.
But don’t know if I agree about Brown. I think they really want him to be the starter. They need an improved pass rush, and I’m not sure Johnson is the answer to that. Johnson really shouldn’t be much more than a quality backup. Hurney and co will want to prove that they traded a 1st round pick for more than just a 3rd down DE.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I'm only speaking to the start of the '09 season
Johnson has had 2 years to get stronger and adjust to the NFL game. If he makes strides in stopping the run then he will start IMO. Brown will get on the field and if he makes the most of it could slowly gain more PT.
Long-term we all want to Brown to be an every down player, the sooner the better.
Thanks for the comments ST.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Johnson was second in sacks
last year. He’s getting stronger vs the run, and another year of experience can only help. That said, we will just have to wait until the preseason to see how Brown does vs the run. If he does well, he, Johnson, Peppers and Brayton form a lethal foursome at LDE, much like the Giants had with Strahan, Tuck, Umenyiora, and Kiwanuka. I think Taylor might be the odd man out, as we brought him in last year to be a situational pass rusher. Brown does the same thing at least and he was our first pick.
I'm more worried about getting pressure up the middle.
That is what really disturbs QBs, when they can’t step up in the pocket. Otherwise 2 DE sacks per game isn’t going to do much
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Fantastic point
If we can’t get pressure with our DT’s through the middle of the offensive line, then the edge attack loses it’s effectiveness. However, if the RG, C and LG are being forced to move backwards, then the QB can’t step forward to elude the edge pass rush. So with the middle being bowed inward and the left and right side of the pocket collapsing, the QB would be either sacked or forced to throw an errant throw.
by boywonderncsu on May 13, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Which in theory...
Also improves your secondary, due to a QB making bad choices. Peppers and Charles Johnson had a career high sacks last year and our defense still struggled. I think a lack of pressure up the middle is why. Lewis and Kemo don’t scare too many QBs. DT probably should have been our main off season focus. So if this holds true, we are in for more of the same on defense this year.
Unless of course, Meeks has something up his sleeve.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on May 13, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
That's the way I see it too
I think the DE positions are set talent wise enough for Meeks to work with. I’m more concerned about the DT positions with the pass and run. Mainly with depth at the DT when it comes to the run. Lewis and Kemo pretty much did good against the run up until they became injured and had to rely on depth.
One of the few things Irvin was supposed to be ready immediately to do was plug gaps against the run. With him and Hayden (who has probably grown in strength and technique over his first NFL offseason), I think we could be better off than ya’ll might imagine.
by MichaelProcton on May 14, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
ESPN Article on Top Ten Unfilled Roster Holes
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/news/story?id=4163389
8. Carolina Panthers: Defensive Tackle
The second-worst team in the league against rushes up the middle a year ago, Carolina needed to improve on the interior. Instead, the team didn’t make a play for any veteran defensive tackles and have only project Corvey Irvin to show from the draft. Damione Lewis is an acceptable backup tackle and even a reasonable part of a rotation, but as a primary starter, he’s simply stretched. Getting Maake Kemoeatu back will help, but what if he gets hurt again?
Some good points there. I have to say its the only position I am worried about this year. I might feel a little better if we bring in a veteran like Dwayne Robertson. If not I hope Brian Baker, with his emphasis on technique, can whip the young guys into shape. We sure do have a lot of DT’s on the roster right now. Maybe one can surprise us.
Nice find zr
I don’t pay for Insider so I’m curios what the other 9 were. This would make a good front page post.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
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