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Making the Case for Panthers GM Marty Hurney

Panthers Draft 2002

By Negative Man

I personally think that Marty Hurney is a very good General Manager. Not a great general manager, but a very good one. With the okay of our fearless leaders – Jaxon and James  – I'm going to attempt to make that case over the next few weeks/months. I welcome all comments/compliments/complaints.

I want to start by going year-by-year on the Panthers’ drafts. Later, I’ll go year-by-year on free agents. And I want to offer one pause here to myself and others: I “think” Marty is a very good GM. I’m not completely sure. These posts will be my way of figuring it out for myself. And I hope they will help you, in some way, give you a perspective to figure it out for yourselves.

 

 

Star-divide

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2002 Draft Marty Hurney Panthers' Draft:

 

Pick One – DE Julius Peppers, North Carolina. I was SO happy in 2001 to see this pick pop up on my computer. There had been a lot of pressure to choose QB Joey Harrington. We had so many needs this year. And more importantly, how many first round picks had we blown in the past? QB Kerry Collins, RB Tim Biakabutuka, WR Rae Carruth, DE Jason Peter, 1999 (forfeit for DE Sean Gilbert). Those are just the obvious. The fact is, that by 2002, we’d never had a 1st round Pro Bowler. (2001’s Dan Morgan later made it).

            My take was: go safe! Especially in spending that much money with the #2 pick. Say what you want about Julius Peppers. But he’s made a lot of plays and a lot of Pro Bowls in his stay with the Panthers. I’d take him over Harrington, OT Mike Williams, CB Quentin Jammer, DT Ryan Sims, OT Bryant McKinnie (who is actually pretty good), and S Roy Williams, who were our other choices.

 

Pick Two – RB DeShaun Foster, UCLA… DeShaun had his moments, especially in the playoffs. We needed a RB, and Hurney rolled the dice. He could’ve had, randomly, OC Andre Gurode (very good player), DE Kalimba Edwards, OT Mike pearson, DT Larry Tripplett, and future All-Pro Center LeCharles Bentley. But then, Bentley tore an ACL in his year five, and he never returned to the league. That’s a good reminder about the draft; there are so many variables: coaching, chemistry, injuries, etc. Foster was a solid choice under the circumstances, and he definitely helped the Panthers to the Super Bowl in 2004

 

Pick Three – (Traded Down) LB Will Witherspoon, Georgia. I will have to say, I talked with my Dad the day after this draft, and I said “Who is this guy?!?”… Well, Witherspoon suited up and showed up every game, and he played at a high level for the Panthers and later did the same for St. Louis and Philadelphia. He could make plays sideline to sideline, and he averaged for the Panthers 90 tackles a season, 2 interceptions, 2 sacks, and lots of tackles beyond the line of scrimmage. (check the stats if you want). All I know is that when I watched or listened to the games, the announcers were always saying “Witherspoon in on the tackle!”.

            Years later, Marty Hurney would have to make a choice between resigning Dan Morgan or Will Witherspoon. Marty chose Morgan. And as much as I said “Who is this guy?!?” when Witherspoon was drafted, I also said to my Dad that free-agent day “That was a mistake.” In any case, Witherspoon was an incredible 3rd round choice.

 

Round Four – S Dante Wesley, Arkansas Pine-Bluff… Another “who is this guy?” pick. He’s a special teams all-star. A solid choice in the 4th round, though the Panthers could’ve had DE Alex Brown, QB David Garrard, or LB Larry Foote. They also could’ve chosen a lot of guys who are no longer in the NFL. Wesley is still in the NFL. Good pick.

 

Later picks – QB Randy Fasani, FB Kyle Johnson, TE Keith Heinrich, OG Pete Campion, CB Brad Franklin.

            None of these guys made any kind of impact on the team. Kyle Johnson did okay with Denver later.

 

We missed out on DE Aaron Kampmann, LB Andra Davis, and LB Scott Fujita in the later rounds. Please raise your hand if you would’ve known in 2002 to have drafted these guys. 

 

Summary: All-Pro Julius Peppers, very solid starter LB Will Witherspoon, key cog in Super Bowl Run RB DeShaun Foster, Solid special teamer Dante Wesley.

In a very poorly-talented 2002 NFL draft, Marty Hurney found a huge gold nugget, another one that would later get away, and two other players who would make significant contributions in the following years. Grade: B+

 

And not too shabby for a guy who was running his first NFL draft, and who had the guts to resist the pressure to grab Joey Harrington and to draft two “Who are those guys?” guys.

 

More to come….

 

Thanks.

-- Negative Man

 

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Hurneys a good talent scout.

We’ve gotten a lot of diamonds in the rough with him for an example do 7th round CBs usually start at nickel in their rookie year?

by chinchillas sword on Dec 8, 2009 5:17 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Nice post Negative Man

I really wish we’d brought Will Witherspoon back into the fold. All it took from Philly was a 5th round pick. I’d have gladly paid a 4th for him.

The idea of an LB corps of Witherspoon, Beason and Davis gives me chills (in a good way).

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Dec 8, 2009 8:25 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I’d love me some Witherbeavis like Gabriel Iglesias loves chocolate cake.

Double Trouble; we've got the best running backs in the NFL that never see the ball!

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 8, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Double Trouble and Witherbeavis…. it would have been perfect!

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Dec 8, 2009 5:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I've said it b4 and I'll say it again...

Fire John Fox if you must…but keep Hurney. As I’m sure will bear out as this series prgresses, Hurney has worked a lot of magic and brought a lot of talent to this team throught he draft, trades and free agency. He is like that poor single mother who doesn’t have a dime but makes miracles in the kitchen so often her kids don’t even know they’re poor.

by rawjem01 on Dec 8, 2009 8:49 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Nice food analogy.

CSR is on a role lately.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Dec 8, 2009 9:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So now we have an Optimist and a Negative Man

though he doesn’t sound too negative.

Welcome to the blog Negative Man

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Dec 8, 2009 8:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Comparison

Don’t you think to keep a balance in this article you should also comment on the choices that were a bust. You are being onesided with your opinions. You can’t show the good without the bad, that doesn’t prove anything.

by Cwilly1 on Dec 8, 2009 10:18 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think he did show that though:

None of these guys made any kind of impact on the team. Kyle Johnson did okay with Denver later.

It’s glossing over those guys, but do we really need in depth analysis of busts?

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Dec 8, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

To keep it objective, yes

This is a pump up Hurney piece, so to be objective we need to see the whole picture. I don’t think I see very many bust shown here. He has shown picks we could have made and what their impact has been in thr NFL, but that is only part of the picture. They made so many mistakes in the draft, and if they are not pointed out this article is totally one sided.

by Cwilly1 on Dec 8, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey Cwilly1

I don’t mean it to be a “pump up Hurney piece.” Honestly, when you hit on your first four draft choices, you’ve had a good draft. There’s no such thing as a 5-7 round bust. You kind of expect those guys to be busts, especially in this lousy-overall-talented 2002 draft.
    That said, your complaint is noted. I’ll do my best to point out the busts in future posts.
Rock on.

— NM

by Negative Man on Dec 8, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't understand your argument...

He did mention the busts. Really, what more can you say about a bust than “no impact”? It’s certainly not worth getting a play by play for every snap they’ve taken in the NFL just to show just bust-y they are. No impact = no impact.

And I have to agree with him, how can any one that late be a bust? A bust is a high rounder that completely fails in the NFL, not some one with no expectations.

I don’t find this piece objective at all. More so along the lines of realistic. No ‘pumping up’, simply ‘it is what it is’ facts.

So, in the interest of fairness, what should have been pointed out about “QB Randy Fasani, FB Kyle Johnson, TE Keith Heinrich, OG Pete Campion, CB Brad Franklin” that says more than ‘no impact’? (quoted because I would have never remembered all of their names)

Double Trouble; we've got the best running backs in the NFL that never see the ball!

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 8, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I have to agree

If you hit with the first 4 picks its a good draft…even if the final 4 don’t pan out.

2002 was a good draft but not as good as 2001, which produced three straight PBers (Morgan, Jenkins, Smith) but certainly good.

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Dec 8, 2009 8:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nice write-up Negative Man

The GM typically weighs in on coaching hires too right?

It might be interesting to throw some of that into the mix if you’re feeling ambitious.

Bet you’ll get a boatload of feedback when you get to Jeff ’What’s a Gameplan’ Davidson ; )

by GuyIncognito on Dec 8, 2009 12:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I like to call him Jeff "Opening Drive Touchdown" Davidson.

His offenses take opening drives for scores with amazing regularity. Now, if he could only learn to adjust in-game, he’s actually be a good OC.

Sadly….

by r3 on Dec 8, 2009 9:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Guyincognito

That’s a good point. Though I think it’s up to the head coach to name his assistant coaches. Though… the head coach reports to the general manager.

I’ll keep your feedback in mind. That might be part three: coaches, though I’m more of a player observer… in any case, thanks for the comment.

by Negative Man on Dec 8, 2009 12:47 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Negative Man

I like your style.

I look forward to your take on drafts 2003-2009!

by GoodOl'NorthState on Dec 8, 2009 9:25 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Lately?

I like Otah, but a # 1 pick for a RIGHT tackle? Has anyone noticed this? We signed Gross to a hugh contract to play LEFT tackle for many years to come. Do you use a # 1 pick on a RIGHT tackle? I think not. Even with Gross down, they don’t move Otah over to the left side. Wow.
Also on Marty, how is it that we not only have a total bust at QB right now, but also no one in training? It’s obvious that they don’t have a lot of faith in Moore yet they have no one else to groom? That’s an unforgivable error on Fox and Hurney.

by Run4est on Dec 8, 2009 10:39 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps they wanted to protect Delhomme from sacks from both sides instead of only one? Delhomme isn’t going to out run or evade anyone even if he’s staring at them running straight at him… We’re lucky if he throws it away.

Double Trouble; we've got the best running backs in the NFL that never see the ball!

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 8, 2009 10:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

True, but still, do you use a # 1 pick for a RIGHT tackle? He’s probably the best RIGHT tackle in the legue right now (despite his penalties) but still, have you ever heard of a team using a # 1 pick on a RIGHT tackle? Now I understand that there have been tackles drafted that started on the right side and then moved to the left, but we apparently do not have that idea in mind. Gross is in for the long run at LEFT tackle. If the thinking was to train him the right tackle position for a couple of years and then move him over to the right, I could understand that. But that has proven to be not the case. Bottom line is, Hurney used a # 1 pick for a RIGHT tackle, and that’s not good.

by Run4est on Dec 8, 2009 11:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I still don't get it.

Why is that not good? If he felt that we needed a quality right tackle badly and felt secure enough in other aspects of the team (or felt he could get quality players at whatever said positions in a latter round) then I see nothing wrong with it.

The question I would ask is, would Otah have been available in the next round? If no then I would say it was a good call.. If yes then perhaps not so much.

Double Trouble; we've got the best running backs in the NFL that never see the ball!

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 9, 2009 12:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

OK

Yeah, that’s a fair question. Otah would not have lasted any deeper than what we drafted him. But any other team would have picked him as a LEFT tackle and paid him big bucks. The problem I’m having is that we drafted a RIGHT tackle in the first round when many of the pro-bowl RIGHT tackles are typically not drafted until the later rounds. Point being is that we could have drafted a very good right tackle in the later rounds. Otah to me is an over-qualified right tackle who for most other teams would be a very good left tackle. So I guess I’m saying that, for this team, the pick did not make sense.

by Run4est on Dec 9, 2009 1:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Other guys drafted to play the RIGHT tackle include (but are not limited to)

Michael Oher.
Levi Brown.
*Winston Justice.
*Jason Smith.
Jordan Gross.

It’s not crazy to draft a good player and then put him on the field where he’ll work best for your team. Maybe you forgot that Gross spent most of his career on the right side (sorry, the RIGHT side) until Otah came along, but you haven’t complained about that. And maybe some (*) of the guys I just listed (and this was quick and off the top of my head) were drafted to play LEFT, but washed out there or are being groomed by playing the right side for now.

One small point: there are very few Pro Bowl RTs. There are three Tackle spots on the Pro Bowl rosters, and they’re almost always filled by LTs.

But to the bigger issue, drafting a mauler like Otah in the first round is, in my estimation, a fantastic move. We want to be a run-first team, and we are. The RT position is traditionally the strongest run-blocker. If you believe that you’re a running team, then you invest the money and the draft choices into making that a reality. Enough with duct taping an offensive line together year in and year out. Fix it. Fix it for a decade, and you don’t have to worry about it again.

The 2008 draft was Hurney’s finest moment, IMHO. I love seeing 300-yard rushing days, and that 2008 first round is why we’ve been able to do that the past two seasons.

by r3 on Dec 9, 2009 2:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

true

Very good points.. you might be 100% correct. I really hope you’re right. It’s just that I’m a former Bronco’s fan who has become accustomed to having pro-bowl level o-linemen drafted in later rounds. I think though that several of the names you listed are now or scheduled to be left tackles. My concern is that Otah will not be a left tackle anywhere in the near future. Bottom line is that teams should not draft right (RIGHT) tackles in the first round. Just my opinion.

by Run4est on Dec 9, 2009 2:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The way I see it:

- You draft a future LT in the first 10 picks.
- You draft a future RT anywhere else in the 1st round.
- Unless the player is too good to pass up you don’t draft guards in the 1st round.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 7:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually

I’ve heard of RIGHT tackles being picked in the first. Tackle is a very important position, LEFT is more so than the RIGHT, but both would be worthy of first round selections. Top ten is another argument though.

by chinchillas sword on Dec 9, 2009 5:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes...why not use a #1 on a RT when you plan to run the ball first

typically teams prefer to run off the right side

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Dec 9, 2009 8:37 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Uhmmm....

Jake Delhomme wasn’t even drafted, so how can he be considered a bust?

by J-Mid. on Dec 8, 2009 10:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Uhmmm

Sorry, not as a draft bust, just as a QB who is not performing well right now. The point is, why do we not have anyone on deck to take his place? I think the GM is responsible for that. No?

by Run4est on Dec 8, 2009 11:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yea..

That’s a damn good question…

by J-Mid. on Dec 8, 2009 11:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Delhomme is on the down slope of his career...happens to every QB at some point

We have Moore waiting in the wings and I would say the jury is still out on him. Fox has never said Moore is not starter quality. That’s just us putting words in his mouth. He may think Moore is the future starter of this team

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Dec 9, 2009 8:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Jake as a bust

Well, I guess a case could be made for resigning him to the most recent 5-yr deal could be considered, but then again, it would have to be in the context of salary cap including the possibility of a cap-free year.

On the other hand, a lot of this year’s issues are probably due to the issues with his arm injury.

by panthersnbraves on Dec 8, 2009 11:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

From the way his contract is set up, I think he’s on the roster no matter who is coaching next year. It’s just a matter of who they bring in to challenge him.
I could be 100% wrong (as usual), but I really like Troy Smith from the Ravens. He could be the next Drew Brees, or the next Stefan LeFors. It’s a good thing that I’m not the GM.

by Run4est on Dec 9, 2009 1:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I also like Troy, so you're not alone.

Double Trouble; we've got the best running backs in the NFL that never see the ball!

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 9, 2009 1:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like Smith as well

I thought he should have been a Panther. We did have a backup and a guy we were grooming, McCown and Moore. McCown got hurt, which is part of the QB quandary. There was a post by James that outlined who we realistically could have gotten at QB, and Flacco and Quinn were our only options, sacrificing Beason and Double Trouble for either one.

by Flowing Willow on Dec 9, 2009 5:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The term 'bust' doesn't apply

to a UDFA that you obtained as a free agent who then became a 7 year starter. ‘Over the hill’ might be better to describe Jake at this point.

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Dec 9, 2009 8:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Even as a prominent Jake-hater, there is no denying the fact that Delhomme was a very smart pickup and paid huge dividends for quite some time.

by Tater596 on Dec 9, 2009 9:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Negative Man = Marty Hurney?

We have no way of knowing that this isn’t actually Marty Hurney putting together some support for himself in the coming months. =P

by Tater596 on Dec 9, 2009 9:40 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

:)

I’m actually not Marty Hurney. Though I’m not sure how to prove that to you.

It’s a funny comment nonetheless, Tater.

by Negative Man on Dec 9, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

complete control

Some assumptions are being made about the complete control that Hurney has over team decision making. The job of GM is tough because the “buck” stops at his desk. But when it came time to hire Fox and other personnel and players, what influences were going on behind the scenes to impact the results? I run a company for an owner who likes to stay invisible because he is therefore untouchable and escapes criticism. He calls the shots a lot of times and pays me to take the hits. What is to say that Hurney’s strings were not being yanked by Richardson or his sons? Happens in a lot of other teams…to put all of the blame on one guy makes him simply a scapegoat when things go sour..when things are great then the coach is always the hero. Not a job I would want!

by wahooo on Dec 9, 2009 12:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

We've gotten off-base a bit with the broader Hurney discussion.

So let’s get back to talking about this particular draft.

One of the things I like to do to help evaluate a particular position we’ve drafted is to look at the next two or three players chosen at that position and compare. For example, in the 2005 draft, we chose Eric Shelton (who?) in the second (!!!!) round: clearly Hurney’s worst move ever. How do we know, despite the terrible overall quality of the 2005 draft class, that Hurney’s moves were sub-par? We look at the next running back taken: Pro Bowler Frank Gore.

So how does this draft class stack up?
Julius Peppers – Next DEs taken: Dwight Freeney, Bryan Thomas. I think we got the best overall player from that entire draft class in Pep. If Freeney could play the run, then it might be a competition; he can’t, so it’s not. Albert Haynesworth and Ed Reed are the only competition in the rest of that draft, and A) you don’t take a Safety with the #2 overall pick, and B) I wouldn’t want Haynesworth on my team if he paid me. A+

DeShaun Foster – Next RBs taken: Clinton Portis, Maurice Morris, Ladell Betts. Boy, it’s hard to see Portis as the next RB off the list and still think of this as a good draft pick. But it’s not a bad choice; his first pre-season carry was for a huge touchdown, and his knee injury during that first preseason had a noticeable effect on his speed. His hard running style reminds me of Adrian Peterson. Unfortunately, so does his tendency to hold the ball in his hands and swing it wide, away from his body. That’s why All Day (…whatever.) leads the league in fumbles over the past two seasons. But compared to MoMo and Betts, I’d call his performance acceptable. Portis obviously would have been the better choice, but especially considering Foster’s playoff performances, I’m going to give this selection a B-

Will Witherspoon – Next LBs taken: Rocky Calmus, Will Overstreet, James Allen. None of those guys were in the league past 2006. A player of this calibre? In the third round? This is an easy grade to give out. A+

Dante Wesley – You think this’ll be another good pick, don’t you? Fourth round for a special teams ace? Next CBs taken: Brian Williams, Mike Echols. Echols only played in nine total games across three years. But NC State product Brian Williams has been a starter from year one, moving from the Vikings to Jacksonville and following Mike Smith to Atlanta. Remember that blocked punt against the Falcons in week 2? That was him. It’s hard to look at Wesley and compare him favorably to a starting-calibre corner taken five picks later. B- / C+

Randy Fasani – Next QBs taken: Kurt Kittner, Brandon Doman, Craig Nall. Complete failure for the quarterback position at this point in the draft. Considering how Fasani walked away from the game in order to go be a police officer, I’m going to give this a reflective grade. W

Keith Heinrich – Next TEs taken: Jeb Putzier, John Gilmore. None of these guys were any better than the others, but they all three finished their rookie contracts then floated around the league until the past year or two. They’ve all had similarly long, unremarkable careers. Not bad for a group of round six draftees. B+

Pete Campion – Next OL taken: Mike Pucillo, Jeff Grau, Eric Heitmann. Just how bad of a selection this was, I can’t quite tell. Round seven, it’s all boom and bust, as evidenced by our recent seventh round CBs, so I’m going to treat round seven as a Pass/Fail class. Now, Campion never made the team, which is what happened to Grau as well. But Pucillo was a valuable and flexible backup during his six years in the league, starting a few games here and there. Heitmann became the starting center for the 49ers in his rookie year, and despite a couple of injuries he still owns that job. Considering the options available, it doesn’t look good for Hurney. Fail

Would I take a report card with two A+ and a few Bs, withdrawing from one class and failing my 7am Computer Literacy class? Yes. Yes I’d be fine with that. Overall, a great first draft class for Hurney.

by r3 on Dec 9, 2009 12:26 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Great post, r3.

by Negative Man on Dec 9, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks, Negative Man!

I wish I’d been a little quicker on the draw with this. Now, it’s 20 pages down in the comments and nobody’s gonna read it. Ah well. I’ll do better next time!

by r3 on Dec 9, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well done r3

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Dec 10, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

r3 now I just need you to win in fantasy this weekend!

May the Fairy Queens romp!

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Dec 11, 2009 8:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Softli and Gregory deserve more credit than Hurney

Fox will tell Hurney what he needs, Gregory will tell him who’s available in the draft, and Mark Koncz will tell Hurney what free agents and potential trades are available. Hurney will try and make trades, balance the cap, and negotiate contracts. He isn’t a talent scout, he isn’t a coach, and he isn’t the one responsible for whether a player succeeds or fails. He just manages those people.

Tony Softli became our director of college scouting in 2000. He was largely responsible for the draft classes of 2001-2006. He did a great job in his first couple of drafts, then started looking for better jobs and the results showed. In 2001 he tapped Morgan, Jenkins, and Smith. In 2002 it was Peppers, Foster, Witherspoon, and Wesley. In 2003 he found Gross and Ricky Manning Jr. In 2004 it was Gamble and Wharton, with Colbert, Carter, and Gaines thrown in as players who actually contributed.

Then in 2005 he started sniffing around the Seahawks for another job, and we drafted Davis, Shelton, Mathis, and Ellison with our first four choices. In 2006 he was trying to hook up with the Rams (and eventually did), and Don Gregory took over.

Gregory’s first draft landed DeAngelo Williams, Richard Marshall, James Anderson, and Jeff king. His second, in 2007, produced Jon Beason, Ryan Kalil, Dwayne Jarrett, Charles Johnson, Dante Rosario, and C.J. Wilson. In 2008 he got Stewart, Otah, Godfrey, Connor, Barnidge, Hayden, and Bernadeau. Last year he tabbed Brown, Martin, and Munnerlyn. Note that I’m only mentioning players who get time.

Clearly Gregory is better than Softli was. His recommendations are what Fox and Hurney look at when deciding how valuable a player is. Based on our current team, he’s the real star behind the scenes.

by Cyberjag on Dec 9, 2009 1:19 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Great insight.

I knew none of this – doubt many others did, either. Thanks. Sounds like Don Gregory is more important to keep than Fox or Hurney.

by bigdavis on Dec 9, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was concerned when Softli went to the Rams, given how well his early drafts went...

but Gregory’s done a fantastic job scouting talent since, no question. Thanks, Cyberjag, for reminding us of the roles that other staff members play in making a draft successful or not.

FYI, 2005 was the worst draft class in recent memory, so I don’t blame them for that (Eric Shelton excepted).

But, despite the fact that Gregory has done a magnificent job, it’s ultimately up to Hurney to pull the trigger on which players we draft. It certainly appears that Gregory has done a great job giving Hurney the information to make good decisions, so I’m not minimizing his role at all. But it does come down to Hurney in the end, and his decision making over the years has been very good, IMHO.

by r3 on Dec 9, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agree..I was not aware as well

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Dec 10, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cowher or bust in 2010 or at-least get C. Weis plz.

Bill Cowher needs to be this teams coach and he doesn’t even need a GM b/c he drafts, and gets the guys he wants which is one of the reasons Richardson orignally didn’t want to bring him here but after failed attempts with Hurney and Fox especially this season the Panthers need a change and Cowher is the man for sure.

Bye Fox have fun coaching in Cleveland, Detriot, St. Louis, hell maybe even Tampa Bay with the way R. Morris is coaching (now wouldn’t that be something) but I doubt it happens.

If we finish 7-9 or 8-8 I think Fox and Hurney get one more season to prove they can get it done and C. Weis being the Offensive Coordinator and dumping Jeff Davidson is a must.

Go Panthers

by Holty_Panthers_Fan on Dec 9, 2009 3:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Why in the world would you want Cowher?

You want to wait 13 years after hiring him to get a Super Bowl? That’s how long it took him to get there with the Steelers, and he only won the one.

I say we give Foxy 13 years to get there. How about we come back to this discussion in 2015?

by r3 on Dec 9, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That’s one more Super Bowl than most other coaches have…ie Reid who just got a fat contract. And there was a reason why he stuck around in the same place for 13 years and wasn’t fired despite not winning a Super Bowl: he won and got his team to the playoffs many times. As opposed to our coach who has a losing season every other year.

by pancanbra on Dec 9, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

True, true...

But in Cowher’s seventh season in Pitt, he went 6-10. The year before he’d gone 7-9. The year after, he went 9-7. I’m just saying that a little patience with a good coach doesn’t hurt, and will eventually pay off.

by r3 on Dec 9, 2009 6:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Valid points. However when it is all said and done, when or if Fox gets fired, I think it will ultimately be Jake’s fault. I see him as the biggest demise of this team. Although having a makeshift defensive line and inconsistent secondary doesn’t help either. But then you could blame Fox for sticking with Jake too long, and then blame Hurney for not giving Fox any other options. But I honestly believe that if we didn’t have one of the worst QB’s in the league (just going off of statistics) we would be in the playoffs this season.

by pancanbra on Dec 9, 2009 9:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gotta give you a plus one on that...

Jake’s play this season is historically bad, and enough to get everyone around him fired. Clearly, we need a quarterback urgently. I don’t know where he’s going to come from, but we need one.

I think Sage Rosenfels will be coming free this off-season… sigh

by r3 on Dec 9, 2009 11:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t really care if Hurney is a good GM or not. He sealed his fate when he made the trade to get Everette Brown. If we did well this year he’d be fine, but if we lost this year, like we are now, he’s gone. You cannot give up a 1st round pick (especially if its going to be a mid round to upper first round pick) for a backup DE and then spend all of your money that could be used on depth for a DE that will only be around for one more year. That ladies and gentlemen, is not how you build a team. Oh wait, did I forget to mention that he has never even bothered trying to find a culpable replacement for Jake Failhomme? When we finish the season sub .500 Fox will be gone, Jake will be gone, and Hurney will be gone with them. Good riddance.

by pancanbra on Dec 9, 2009 5:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

....... what?

I fully expect Brown to be a starting DE but, as with every player in the NFL, it’ll take time for him to develop into such. Excellent move, in my opinion.

No one knows if Peppers will resign or not, saying he will only be around another year is a bit premature.

We have one of the best ends in the game and an extremely promising end looming, that’s exactly how I like my teams.

Moore is supposedly that replacement for Delhomme. Every replacement must wait for his chance – this is Moore’s chance. Rather he is a hit or miss is yet to be determined but we cannot say we didn’t have a replacement.

Delhomme was given respectful time to start because we believe in having class. The season is on the brink but the world still turns, I think they know this. There’s always a fresh season awaiting.

As much as we want to win every game, every year, someone must always lose. When our team hits the field next year, though, we’re going to be a monster on both sides of the ball. With a new QB to lead (who has had ample practice with the 1st team) us and all of our injuries healed, we’re gonna be tough to beat to say the least.

Double Trouble; we've got the best running backs in the NFL that never see the ball!

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 9, 2009 11:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

First of all, it’s never acceptable for my team to lose. That’s the way I feel. I will never use the argument, “well, someone must always lose…” That’s bull. If we lose, then someone isn’t doing their job to the level that we as fans deserve. Every fan for every team pays good money to see their team win a Super Bowl. Of course, I’m not going to throw my team under the bus if we’re not undefeated every year, but I am going to be upset about losing seasons.

Secondly, everyone thought that we were going to be amazing this year before the year started, so how can you be so sure we’re going to be dominant next year??? Especially when we don’t have our QB situation figured out?

Brown has shown flashes but I’m not sold that he was worth the first round pick. Especially if it’s going to be a mid-rounder. And mark my words, Julius Peppers will NOT be playing for the Carolina Panthers next year. Fact.

by pancanbra on Dec 10, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If that’s how you feel, that’s what makes people of the world unique.

That’s true, until Delhomme went south and the injuries piled on. Not to mention, we’re just continuing our trend – win a year, lose a year.

I never said I didn’t respect your opinion, I simply took what you believed, thought about it, then offered counter points with what I believed. That’s typically how things go on here. I never demanded anything as fact because I know, in the NFL, things are always up in the air. So how are you going to demand that you’re right while all of us that believe Peppers could resign are all wrong? Opinions aren’t facts, no matter how hard you want to believe them.

Double Trouble; we've got the best running backs in the NFL that never see the ball!

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 10, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Someone has to lose every game

Doesn’t mean fans like it any more when they do lose, it’s just a fact of life, you can’t go undefeated year in and year out unless you’re in AA college ball or middle school. I had a sinking feeling about this season, in a league where everyone was changing we stayed pat, and I knew it would cost us. However, it’s healthier and more fun to stay positive, and with our defense, run game, and the fact that Furney have done an excellent job of recognizing our weakness’ in the past and bringing a broadside to bear tells me that we will be very dangerous next year. Especially since no one will see it coming.

by Flowing Willow on Dec 11, 2009 2:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And with the way we're going..

We should have a fairly easy schedule minus the division games.

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 11, 2009 3:37 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I loved the 2009 draft. It was a draft in the mold of a New Englans Patriots draft, and it's worked for them.

We didn’t need to draft starters, we drafted backups who filled needs 2 years down the line.

- Everette Brown can step in for Peppers
- Sherrod Martin can be groomed as a safety or corner
- Corey Irvin will be an eventual replacement for Kemo
- Mike Goodson provides depth at RB, and injury insurance.
- Tony Fiametta will take over for Hoover when he eventually retires
- Duke Robinson is more O-line depth, something this team always proves it needs
- Munnerlyn is a high energy, upside player who at worse is an effective special teams player

I love these selections because none of them are immediate needs, but they all eventually fill needs. Did all the picks make sense on draft day? No, but these investments will mature and I think ultimately it will become a crowning achievement of Panthers’ drafting.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Dec 10, 2009 12:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm seriously hoping..

Peppers resigns so we get to see a matured Brown and Peppers on the line at the same time…

Double Trouble; we've got the best running backs in the NFL that never see the ball!

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 10, 2009 1:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Brown is going to be a good DE

he just needs maturing

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Dec 10, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

James u said that so well. I think the last 2 drafts have been awsome.

by rawjem01 on Dec 10, 2009 10:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I liked most of those picks. I really don’t think Irvin is going to do anything in this league and the jury is still out on Robinson. Like I said above, I just think the first and second round pick was too much for Everette Brown. I’d much rather be going into the draft with a mid first rounder that we could spend on a QB.

by pancanbra on Dec 10, 2009 12:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

At the time...

We had a very sound QB, there was no way to predict Delhomme would have a horrible season and we’d be in this predicament. Even if they did want a QB this year, the fact that the draft was going to be so deep this year could have made them feel a second or latter round QB was acceptable.

Double Trouble; we've got the best running backs in the NFL that never see the ball!

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 10, 2009 12:42 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Especially with the hole at DE

If Peppers left, that first rounder would have gone for a DE, as it is we get Brown and Goodson a year earlier, they get an extra first rounder, but it’s going to be in the mid teens, not top ten, while we still have a second rounder in an incredibly deep QB class, with a great WR class the year after.

by Flowing Willow on Dec 11, 2009 2:20 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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