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DeAngelo Williams: A 5 Star Rusher?

It occurred to me that DeAngelo Williams is approaching a milestone that, I believe, few running backs in the NFL have achieved. In two weeks, DeAngelo Williams is going to register his third straight season with an average of 5 yards per carry or higher, while surpassing 100 carries each season.

Some of you probably already know that I put a lot of worth into a players yards/carry average. I feel a players season average is the ultimate form of performance consistency in terms of moving chains. I know some disagree and find it a dismissal stat but, by the time a running back hits, roughly, 100+ carries for the season, I see no way that an average can be a 'fluke'. I could take a paragraph or five to explain why I think a players season average is so important but that's not the point of this post. You've all already got opinions and thus those opinions will determine exactly what this means to you.

Might I mention, this is a learning experience for me as well. I'm doing research as I type this to get a list of comparison players whom have averaged over 5 yards per carry for three or more straight seasons with more than 100 carries per season. Feel free to add any players I miss in the comments, this list is and will be far from conclusive. I'm creating it simply for comparison.

Being this feat seems to go unnoticed, though is accomplished rarely, I've given it my own term: 5 Star Rusher. I'll start with the criteria while further explanation will be at the bottom of the post for those wondering how I came about choosing those numbers.

Star-divide

The Criteria:
5+ Yards/Carry Avg. per Season
100+ Carries per Season
3+ Consecutive Seasons

5 Star Rushers:

Jim Brown
1963 - 1965: 6.4 | 5.2 | 5.3

Marshall Faulk
1999 - 2001: 5.5 | 5.4 | 5.3

DeAngelo Williams
2007 - 2009: 5.0 | 5.5 | 5.2

Worth A Mention:
Joe Perry broke a 5 yard average 6 times in his career but never got 3 consecutively.
Tiki Barber posted back-to-back seasons with more than 5 yards per carry before retiring.
Michael Turner posted averages above 5 yards in his first three seasons in San Diego but didn't have the carries to back it up (totaling an estimated 150 carries in 3 years).
Jamaal Charles is two weeks away from posting his second consecutive year with a 5+ average.
Ahmad Bradshaw carried high averages in his first two years on few carries but currently falls .1 yard short in his first season carrying the ball 100+ times.
Jerome Harrison is similar with his previous two seasons low on carries, high on averages. Currently, he is .2yds shy in his first 100+ carry season.
Corell Buckhalter fell just .1 yard shy last season of 5.0. That would have given him three consecutive seasons, though this is his first 100+ carry season.
Felix Jones currently carries a high average for both of his seasons, though has not yet eclipsed 100 carries.
Tashard Choice also carries a high average over his two seasons but has yet to reach 100 carries.

Guys That Haven't Made It:
The other 42 players on this list among countless others.

Conclusion:
Outside of the very few mentioned (of all the names I could think of and all the lists I could find, I only found three!), I've had quite some trouble finding other backs that have achieved '5 Star Rusher' status. I had to include the 'mentions' just to give a bit more comparison and, even then, they are backs that haven't quite 'proven' themselves, have fallen short when given the chance, or for some other reason didn't make it and could be considered on a lower scale.

So this is where I need help from some of you statistical junkies. My mind can't compile all of the great runners the NFL has seen over the years so if you know of some that are '5 Star Rushers', add them in the comment section!

So, in conclusion, DeAngelo Williams could be about to make history (pending these next two games) in the NFL without it even being realized. C'mon, can't we get that on TV instead of Favre, Brady, and Manning? Of course not!

Criteria Explanation:
Why 5 yards per carry? Because the bar has to be set somewhere. Considering I've yet to discover a running back with consecutive seasons surpassing a 6 yard per carry average and it's nearly common to break 4, 5 seems to be the 'bar' set by history. When a someone does post a 6 yard average 3 years in a row with 100 or more carries each year, I suppose the bar will be raised.

Why 3 years? I've also yet to discover a running back that posted 5 yards per carry for more than three years while, of course, amassing 100 or more carries each season. When a back does it four years in a row, once again, the bar will be raised. Could DeAngelo be the one to raise that bar? I guess we'll find out next year.

Why 100 carries? Once again, it seemed to be the logical step. While I seen quite a few backs surpass a 5 yard average with less than a 100 carries, there seemed to be a noticeable decline once they hit triple digits. Coupled with the average and the years, it seemed a pretty formidable task for a running back that had been accomplished few times at most.

Why 5 Star Rusher? Because I like the way it sounds.

The content of these posts are those of the user/fan making the post only

Comment 93 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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d-will is the best rb in the league

some people will say chris johnson is better, but i disagree for now. if he continues to play at his current level, then i may be forced to give in. d-will ran for over 5 ypc in his first two seasons when foster was the starter and averaged around 3.5. many people talk of how good j-stew is, but he has yet to get to 5 ypc. d-will is fast and hard to tackle, and doesn’t fumble very often. if he can get 20 crries a game, he’ll get 1600 yds and 20 tds every season. of course, that wouldn’t be good for his career longevity, and it’s not necessary with j-stew and sutton on the roster. i would just like to see us reduce the number of games in which he only gets 13 carries.

by usana_gaines on Dec 27, 2009 3:15 AM EST reply actions  

Great benchmarks of what makes a great running back!

Here are some stats that substantiate your claim of Williams’ relative greatness:

Emmitt Smith only averages 5+ in ONE year of his 13:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SmitEm00.htm

Marcus Allen NEVER did:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AlleMa00.htm

LaDainian Tomlinson TWICE in his 10 years, but 4 years apart:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TomlLa00.htm

Larry Csonka did it TWICE in a row — and he was a FB!
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CsonLa00.htm

Jim Taylor, the great Geen Bay FB, also did it TWICE IN A ROW:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TaylJi00.htm

Frank Gifford did it 3 times, but only TWICE when over 100 rushes:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GiffFr00.htm

Tony Dorsett and Herschel Walker never did it.

Barry Sanders (the real gold standard for RBs), did it 4 times in his 10 year career, but never 3 yrs in a row — he averaged 5.0 for his career!!:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SandBa00.htm

Lenny Moore, the great Colts back from the 50’s, averaged over 7 ypc in 3 years!…but never when he carried more than 100 times
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoorLe00.htm

O.J. Simpson (and it pains me to include him here) did it 3 times, but not the 3 in a row you mention:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CsonLa00.htm

Eric Dickerson? Earl Campbell? Franco Harris? Walter Payton?? — Only once each did they ave 5+.

All these guys are in the Hall of Fame, but for Tomlinson, Smith, and Walker.

Your conclusion is only made more valid by these added comparisons.

by bigdavis on Dec 27, 2009 7:31 AM EST reply actions  

Great references..

A lot of big names on there. For things such as 1000 rushing yards to be such a big deal (when a lot of carries can make up for not so great rushing) it seems funny that such a thing would be overlooked. Anything in the NFL will be dependent upon various factors but I think it’s a pretty good feat nonetheless.

The most amusing thought for me? Neither Adrian Peterson nor Chris Johnson are on there. The “greatest back in the league” Peterson has lost yardage with every passing season (5.6, 4.8, 4.4 starting with rookie year up to this season), meanwhile the “new greatest back in the league” has two more years to go before he can accomplish such (his rookie year ended with 4.9, meanwhile this year he’s averaging 5.8)

With Stewart breaking 200 yards today, Carolina is also officially in that list of teams with two backs each exceeding 1k yards in a single season.

Miami ’72, Pittsburgh ’76, Cleveland ’85, Atlanta ’06 (This is including Vick), Giants ’08, and Panthers ’09.

Stewart will also be looking at, roughly, a 4.9 average once the stats are added up. If he can have another great game against New Orleans, he’ll finish with this being his first season above 5 yards per carry.

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 27, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

what the beef with oj??

What have you done for me lately?

by Steve785 on Dec 27, 2009 11:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

so ur mad?

U know what I think ill leave this 1 alone. I got a feeling you have a strong opinion on the…but if my wife ever cheated on me…id OJ their asses hahahahaha jk jk but seriously hahaha jk….pause not hahahaaaa

What have you done for me lately?

by Steve785 on Dec 28, 2009 2:02 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Dear Panther fans

Last week i asked you to beat the Vikes so we could secure home field advantage you did and we didnt get it done

So this week i’m asking you to go ahead and knock the giants out of the playoffs so there’s a chance we get a rematch against the team we lost to last week

  thank you
    Saints fan

by simone219 on Dec 27, 2009 12:08 PM EST reply actions  

Exactly...the Cowboys are not a fluke IMHO

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Dec 27, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

really?

I think the cowboys are a joke. They got talent but they friggin suck. Especially romo the guy is babbage

What have you done for me lately?

by Steve785 on Dec 27, 2009 11:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

They could make the SB...who looks unbeatable in the NFC right now?

nobody

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Dec 28, 2009 9:15 AM EST up reply actions  

You're right -- every team has flaws

It’ll depend on turnovers in the playoffs, and which team brings their game for 60 minutes.

On a side note, I find it funny that most commentators note the number of tackles missed against our RBs (I’d even include Hoov and Sutton) the last two games, and how the Vikes and Giants were flat against us — not how the Panthers MADE them look flat.

by bigdavis on Dec 28, 2009 9:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Actually, off the last 2 weeks, when teams are supposed to start peaking...

…it’s the Panthers who look unbeatable (tho admittedly, it’s a small sample :)

by bigdavis on Dec 28, 2009 9:23 AM EST up reply actions  

We did what was asked of us..

But, boy, what happened in that second half?

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 27, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I won't deny he's a great back...

But isn’t this kind of cherry picking when it comes to determining what makes a great runner? If a backup ran for 500 yards on 100 carries in three consecutive years, would he become one of the greatest backs ever?

Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE

by MichaelProcton on Dec 27, 2009 12:27 PM EST reply actions  

For instance...

Michael Vick went 6.9, 6.4, 7.5, 5.9, 8.4 from ‘02-’06. The only year he didn’t qualify was ’03, when he was injured.

Marion Motley (who was a fullback) also hit your mark for four straight years, ‘47-’50, and pulled off 8.2 YPC in ’46, when he had only 73 carries.

Chet Mutryn is another player from the early age of the league, and did it from ‘47-’49. Dan Towler did it from ‘51-’53.

Joe Perry, another FB, did it from ‘49-’51 and also almost did it in ’48, but only had 77 carries.

Wendell Tyler went 4.9, 5.1, 5.1 from ‘83-’85, and he was only a Pro Bowler once in that span.

Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE

by MichaelProcton on Dec 27, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Cont...

James Brooks did it from ‘88-’90, and I haven’t heard people calling for his spot in Canton lately.

Jim Taylor went 4.8, 5.4, 5.4 from ‘60-’62.

So yeah, I think it’s got a lot to do with being good, but you also have to have the right opportunity to do it as well. If Williams gets the 350+ carries most lead backs do, his numbers probably fall as a result.

Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE

by MichaelProcton on Dec 27, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

This is a good illustration of the difference between me and you.

I — wake up, read an illuminating post from D-Ranged1, and decide to spend some time answering his request to do further research. I assume he put over 30 minutes into his post, and I know I did. Both of us did it to broaden Panther fans knowledge of just how good D-Will has been, when compared to the all-time greats of the game.

You — act only to undermine the celebration of such an accomplishment. I need to say that any parameters of comparison, in any universe, have to be somewhat arbitrary. Here, D-Ranged1 set them at 100 minimum carries per year. I see nothing wrong with that. If you apparently do, start your own post, set your own parameters.

I view your curmudgeonly attitude, constantly seeking to denigrate and criticize others’ opinions and efforts, as the definition of a troll. I move that Jaxon ban you from this site. I see no positive value that you add here.

Don’t let the door hit you in the butt.

by bigdavis on Dec 27, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I happen

to enjoy his contrariness (if that’s even a word)
you can’t stand someone countering your argument or just don’t want to take the time to answer it, then just ignore it.
Most people that can think can see through his arguments as he just tries to take the opposite viewpoint.

So bring it on MP, I enjoy reading your always well though out comments.

by ClaytonFire on Dec 27, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Nah, I just made some shit up.

It hurt bd’s feelings.

Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE

by MichaelProcton on Dec 28, 2009 12:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Ah don't be that way...

Maybe he still dreams of Jake and DeShaun in the backfield. sub 4 yards a carry and a pick/fumble a game. My god that was a beautiful offense.

And I do joke of course.

by Twist Of Cain on Dec 27, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand where you're coming from..

I tried very hard to determine a fair yet obtainable balance. As mentioned in the post, 6 was seemingly unattainable meanwhile 4 was too easily obtainable.

I think a QB benefits from being able to “cherry pick” when he runs. Vick, being as talented a runner as he was, simply did it outstandingly. If this were a rushing QB post, I’d most definitely include him.

Honestly, I can’t speak on on fullbacks from the 40s and 50s. I don’t know how the game was played back then (they say it was a rushing league whereas now it’s passing league but I’ve not seen enough games from that era to include my own opinion in that subject). If they were of a similar role back then as they are now, I must say they are some pretty impressive fullbacks.

I’d have to do an entirely different post for quarterbacks or full backs to try and determine a criteria that best fits their position, though I’m not really interested in such because Williams plays neither of those positions (which is who this entire post was about).

James Brooks is the only one I see to be a running back, unless I overlooked someone. In which, he is a nice addition to the list. I’ve yet to discover a back-up that meets the requirements. If I do find one, I’ll surely add him to the list.

If you’d like to do a post with the criteria set at 350+ carries, feel free, it’d certainly be interesting to see the differences.

I must admit, I know you’re not a fan of using averages to determine a running backs success. Before I had typed the very first word, I knew you’d have a differing opinion. Though, I feel listening to another’s opinion is a great way of expanding ones own, so I was looking forward to it.

In the end, the big picture is we both agree he is a great back.

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 27, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

MP

seriously, people, if you look at all the posts, you will see that more time is spent responding to MP’s irrelevant posts of negativity than the original post. it would be nice if MP actually posted his own fan post with his own opinion about things. and so i have to ask MP, do you think D-Will is a great back or not? You don’t even have to do any research, just make your point and add a reason or too. you often don’t even comment about the post, but you try to downplay the validity of other people’s research, but why?

by usana_gaines on Dec 27, 2009 2:23 PM EST reply actions  

Its futile if you assume there is a point

other than to be argumentative

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Dec 27, 2009 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

It's also futile if you assume...

The hallowed blogmeister is into the business of anything but promoting himself.

Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE

by MichaelProcton on Dec 28, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Need to change your sig line MP...

since the Panthers WERE up 31-0 at one point against the Giants, Or are you agreeing Matt Moore is good?

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Dec 28, 2009 9:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Reading is FUNdamental.

You’ll note that was about a game against the Patriots that was way closer than it should have been.

Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE

by MichaelProcton on Dec 28, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

It was, indeed.

And Moore read your sig, I’m sure, that’s why he got us up 31-0 against the Giants ;)

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 28, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Him and the defense not allowing a thing against the Giants and allowing the Panthers to play Panthers' ball.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 28, 2009 11:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Willams is a good back.

However, he’s certainly aided by the fact that we have: a. a strong rushing philosophy which will give him plenty of carries, b. a strong offensive line, even when we get into our backups, and c. a strong backup in Stewart who can take many of the tough carries (goal-line/third-and-short) and others to keep Williams fresh throughout the game.

Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE

by MichaelProcton on Dec 28, 2009 12:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Stewart has the same pluses

And of course he’s aided, the only truly great back that I can think of who did it all almost solely on his own talent was Barry Sanders. When you have a great back, you get some good run-blockers, that’s how it works. You also fee him the ball, and maybe get him a competent backup. That’s how it works with a great back.

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by Flowing Willow on Dec 28, 2009 3:08 AM EST up reply actions  

You are soooo right MP

If the Panthers didn’t hand the ball off, if they had scrubs for lineman and they had no other RBs then Williams would be a nothing RB. And the opposite applies to: if DeShaun Foster was still the starter he would have put up 206 yards on the Giants easily…probably 306. It’s all due to the philosophy, the line and the back-up RB is the reason D-Will and J-Stew are so good.

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Dec 28, 2009 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Hmm...

I seem to recall a playoff game against the Giants where Foster dominated to the tune of 150+ yards.

Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE

by MichaelProcton on Dec 28, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

It's true..

Foster stepped up in the play-offs.. but beyond that was mostly lackluster at best.

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 28, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

foster vs d-will is a joke of an argument

foster was the man, playoffs and all, until he broke his ankle against the bears in the divisional playoff game. i will never forget his 43 yard td run against the pats in the superbowl. but during d-will’s first two seasons he averaged 1.5 more yards per carry than foster. and to say that stew can get the tough yards, i hope, is not to imply that d-will can’t. do not forget 4 1-yd TD runs against the pack last year. it makes sense to give it to stew, but don’t act like d-will can’t do it.

and one more thing, there are no running backs at all that compare to Jim Brown. Look at yards per carry for his career, yards per game for his career, most yards per game in a single season, TDs per game and TDs per season. Jim Brown was the absolute best ever.

by usana_gaines on Dec 28, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

The only problem with Brown..

Was the “me, me, and me” attitude.. If he wasn’t getting the ball, he didn’t care to play at all.

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 28, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't see the problem

Brown ran the ball better than anyone ever has, and the team couldn’t do anything else right. So just give him the ball. Back then, very few backs did what backs do today such as reading and picking up blitzes or catching passes out the backfield. Brown was a running back and he wanted to run. His attitude was similar to T.O., Smitty and Randy Moss in that he wanted the ball all the time. Other players were like that, but they didn’t complain because they actually got the ball. Except Brown wouldn’t cry at a press conference like T.O., or take a couple seasons off like Moss in Oakland, but he craved getting the ball and was tough like Smitty.

by usana_gaines on Dec 29, 2009 6:07 AM EST up reply actions  

True..

But at least Smitty stays in and tries to help out with blocks and such when he isn’t getting the ball..

Brown didn’t even want to do that.

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 29, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

true

Well I can only say so much about Jim Brown’s dedication to the overall team and his selfishness. I just know that nobody could run the ball like him. Today’s RBs are measured differently. I mean, I think if Brown had to catch passes out the backfield and block in college, or even high school, he would’ve been used to it in the pros. But he never had to do that. So he wasn’t gonna change once he started getting paid.

And, IMO, it’s really hard to compare anyone to Smitty. We would be undefeated if everyone was as passionate and worked as hard as Smitty.

by usana_gaines on Dec 30, 2009 4:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I'll agree with that..

And that second part is the absolute truth.

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 30, 2009 5:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Me too.

Smith’s heart+Peppers’ talent truly would produce one of the players worth $18 mil a year, or, hell, the $22 his cap hit will be with a franchise tag if a cap exists next year.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 30, 2009 9:29 AM EST up reply actions  

YPC isn't a valid stat for comparing the quality of backs .

If you do that, you’re saying that both Kahlil Bell, Javon Ringer, and Reggie Bush are all better backs than your boy, DeAngelo. And you’re crazy if you think Stewart/Foster getting the lion’s share of the goal-line/short-yard carries hasn’t helped that YPC be where it’s at.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 28, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Fixed...

you’re saying that bothall of

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 28, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

You could say that about almost any stat

Yards isn’t a valid factor because Player A may get more carries than Player B.

Touchdowns aren’t a valid factor because Player B gets more goalline carries than Player A.

My point is that no one stat is supreme to trump all others, each gives it’s own perspective and assesment of the player’s abilities and talent.

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by Flowing Willow on Dec 29, 2009 3:07 AM EST up reply actions  

YPC is the BEST stat to compare RB's

TDs can be all 1 yd plunges (see Tomlinson this year) — season totals aren’t fair to old school players who played 14 (or 12) game schedules, when the league had fewer teams, and games to play.

That’s exactly why this post is valuable — because it recognizes what a rare accomplishment D-Will has produced, matched only by a few in the history of the game (given the condition that there be a minimum number of carries, not games played)

For that reason, I Recommended the thread (and I hope someone else will) — thanks, D-Ranged1, for the subject being brought up.

by bigdavis on Dec 29, 2009 5:31 AM EST up reply actions  

So you agree that Reggie Bush is the better back than Williams?

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 29, 2009 8:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Hardly

Bush has never averaged more than 3.8 YPC, until this year, and he won’t get close to 100 carries in ‘09. Don’t see why his name even gets in the conversation — just an average RB who makes his bones from flare passes out of the backfield.

Lifetime, Bush has a 3.9 YPC average; Williams has 5.1 lifetime.

If by “agree” that you imply YOU think Bush is better, then I have concerns for you.

http://www.nfl.com/players/reggiebush/profile?id=BUS294963

by bigdavis on Dec 29, 2009 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

making stuff up again

Foster really got the lions share of goal line carries? In 2006, Foster had 3 TDs averaged 4.3 YPC and his longest run was 43 yards. 2007 was worse, D-Will’s second year, when he also scored the lion’s share of 3 TDs, averaged 3.5 YPC and his longest run was 20 yards. In 2007, D-Will had 4 TDs to Foster’s 3, and his longest run was 75 yards. Of course D-Will averaged 5 YPC in 2007, and every year since. In 2007, FOster only caught two more passes than D-Will despite being on the field for the lion’s share of offensive plays.

As for Stewart, another ridiculous argument by you. Stewart had 8 fewer TDs last season with about 90 fewer carries. He also missed some games due to injury. This season, D-Will has obviously missed time due to injury. So as it stands now, Stewart has fewer carries, almost 100 fewer yards and a couple more TDs. He is averaging .3 yards less per carry. It may be due to some goal line carries, but D-Will has seen his share of those as well. So Stewart and D-Will have both been very productive. So what exactly would make me crazy? i don’t know. it doesn’t matter.

But here’s the real question for you, if YPC isn’t a valid stat for comparing the quality of running backs, than what stat is valid? then we’ll use your criteria to compare D-Will to other backs past and present.

  

by usana_gaines on Dec 29, 2009 6:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Since when do TDs define roles? It is possible to score a TD from anywhere on the field, you know.

Let’s look at carries with two or fewer yards to go for the first down:
‘06: Foster 31 (9 3rd and short)/18 carries inside opponent’s 10-yard line, Williams 17 (8 3rd and short)/8 carries inside opponent’s 10-yard line
‘07: Foster 30 (17 3rd and short)/16 carries inside opponent’s 10-yard line, Williams 9 (4 3rd and short)/6 carries inside opponent’s 10-yard line
‘08: Stewart 23 (9 3rd and short)/16 carries inside opponent’s 10-yard line, Williams 17 (9 3rd and short)/6 carries inside opponent’s 10-yard line
‘09: Stewart 24 (13 3rd and short)/22 carries inside opponent’s 10-yard line, Williams 19 (13 3rd and short)/13 carries inside opponent’s 10-yard line

So let’s add up the totals, since my suggestion that Foster and Stewart have gotten the bulk of the short-yardage carries is “made up”:
Foster/Stewart: 108 carries with 2- yards to go for first down, 48 on 3rd down, 72 inside opponent’s 10-yard line
Williams: 62 carries with 2- yards to go for first down, 34 3rd and short, 33 inside opponent’s 10-yard line.

So that’s 75% more short-yardage carries (with a 40% higher mark on 3rd down), and more than double the number of carries from the 10-yard line in. Feel free to apologize whenever you want.

And to compare the quality of running backs, you should look at a combination of factors. There is no single statistic that determines the caliber of an RB. Was Jerome Bettis a scrub because he was run so often in short-yardage situations and his career YPC is only 3.9? Franco Harris only averaged 4.1 for his career. Should we dismiss his achievements? You have to look at the total package to evaluate any player. When watching him, yes, he appears to have the ability to be an all-time kind of player, and his stats continue to suggest he has that kind of potential. But to be a singularly great, generational type of player (as this post suggests), you have to do it for years. This is his second year as a starter, and he’s already showing signs of breaking down even though he doesn’t get the full carry workload of some backs in the league. In short, let’s not crown his ass, particularly when we see what another back can do in the same system given the opportunity (see Stewart, Jonathan vs. NYG.)

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 29, 2009 9:03 AM EST up reply actions  

I like that "crown his ass" phrase you use

Since you’re wearing a crown, it seems to fit (the phrase, that is, not the crown)

Who’s dismissing Franco Harris’ achievements? He was included in my list of other great RBs, mentioned as HOF, and shown to have averaged over 5 YPC only once in his career. Having done that 3 times, Williams is already shown to be a better RB, ovr any 3 year period that Harris could use — and don’t go to Super Bowl rings (a team accomplishment) or HOF — Williams will get there, barring career-ending injury.

You’re again unable to give credit for (or simply ignore) a post that contributes to the knowledge of the blog members — all you can do is attempt to belittle it by picking on some minutiae and arguing a minor point. Grow up, or contribute something novel yourself.

Who cares about Foster anyway? — he’s got nothing to do, remotely, in a discussion of what makes a great RB.

by bigdavis on Dec 29, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I, at first, understood his argument..

As it progressed, I find myself lost in what he is arguing.

Goal line carries are a part of the game, every back has to punch it in at some point or another. Sure that provides for a lot of variation but what stat in the NFL is variation for? There is none. There is no golden tell-all figure.

So, am I correct in the argument being “1/8th of Williams career carries were short yardage carries”? If so, that sure does destroy my theory of Williams be great. I can’t believe I missed such an overbearing factor that, obviously, determines rather or not a back goes to the HoF.

Remember when Cadillac got his jersey, or cleats, or something, displayed in the HoF for having a couple of great rookie games? Well, Williams has now done it for three years, when do we get to send one of his Jersey’s in? Stewart too, being they’re about to become the all time rushing duo leaders.

If we cant talk stats, we can talk records and next week they break one.

Cribbs & Harrison can send their Jerseys to Canton for having a good game but never mind Williams for having three great seasons.

Might I add, “it is what it is” and regardless of how it came to be, the numbers don’t change.

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 29, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

No.

The argument is that he doesn’t (and has never) have (had) to handle the short-yardage workload, carries that almost always lower a player’s YPC.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 29, 2009 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Or increase

The defense is typically blitzing, so if you get past the first wave there is nothing left. Williams is very good at that.

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by Flowing Willow on Dec 30, 2009 4:38 AM EST up reply actions  

stat guru

How did he get 4 1-yd TD runs against GB if he never handles the load? How did he get more TDs total than Foster? If he never has to get the ball inside the 10, isn’t it more amazing then that he scored 20 TDs? How many backs have ever scored 20 in a season? WHile averaging over 5 YPC for 3 straight seasons, and with only 5 career fumbles?

by usana_gaines on Dec 30, 2009 5:01 AM EST up reply actions  

When did I EVER say he "never" handles the load?

I said he’s never had to be the primary short-yardage back, which he hasn’t. His ability to score TDs from anywhere on the field (as I mentioned above) is one of his greatest assets, certainly. Again, you’re confusing the fact that roles, results, and skillsets aren’t all equal. Obviously, a guy who doesn’t get short-yardage carries isn’t excluded from getting any TDs just because of his roles, and being a goal-line specialist doesn’t guarantee you’ll score any.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 30, 2009 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

apologize? the crowned comedian speaks

You’re trying to be slick again, and it is humorous. So you’re telling me that I should apologize to you because over four years, two guys have 39 more carries inside the opponent’s 10 yard line. That’s less than 10 a year, and considering Foster, for some dumbass reason, was the starter in 2007, and Williams has been hurt this year, I think that to say they get the lion’s share of short yardage carries is misleading. The fact is that Williams and Stewart can both run all the plays in the playbook. They are both strong and fast. You have used the let’s not crown his ass – dennis green – reference a couple times now. it’s okay if you love dennis green the same way you love jake and foster. i understand.

i will give you this, though, i asked you how do you judge a running back, and you gave a reply. well i think franco harris was overrated. i look at YPC and to say it is not a valid stat to use is pretty dumb. it should not, however, be the only stat. i mean, you gotta look at YPC, yards per game, the quality of the OL, the philosophy of the offense and the passing game, TDs and fumbles. Looking at all of those areas, I think D-Will stacks up pretty well over the last two years as anyone else in history over their first two years as a starter. There are exceptions of course (Dickerson and B. Sanders), but he is comparable to most great backs.

by usana_gaines on Dec 30, 2009 4:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Whatever happened to that guy...

Who ran for like 175yards on the ground and then was cut at the end of the year? It was a Super Bowl record at the time…

by Twist Of Cain on Dec 28, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Who was that?

Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE

by MichaelProcton on Dec 28, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Trying to remember the name/team.

I think it was the Redskins, it was in the Super Bowl I remember that much.

by Twist Of Cain on Dec 28, 2009 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I was thinking...

Of Timmy Smith of the Redskins. He did manage a few more years in the league but was below average.

by Twist Of Cain on Dec 28, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Wasn't it just a few short years ago

That Chris Wienke set the Franchise Record for most passing yards in game with 400 something

by Twist Of Cain on Dec 28, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Idk, payback? :P

Yeah D-Will is a great back and IMO is easily the best back from his draft class, no idea why he was stuck behind DeShuan for 2 years.

by Twist Of Cain on Dec 27, 2009 2:24 PM EST reply actions  

Because he wasn't the better back?

Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE

by MichaelProcton on Dec 28, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions  

I think its because...

Foxie loves veterans more than he does results/capabilities.

by Twist Of Cain on Dec 28, 2009 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Which is why guys like Beason, Otah, Godfrey, Marshall, and Munnerlyn have all been allowed to immediately step into big roles as rookies, right?

Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE

by MichaelProcton on Dec 28, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

True, but you can tell who Fox likes.

Plus there was really nobody there to stop them or really challenge them from stepping in.

by Twist Of Cain on Dec 28, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

There were some.

Beason beat out Diggs, a very well-established vet that Fox clearly likes, having kept him in the lineup over physical talents like Landon Johnson and James Anderson. Otah took the place of Travelle Wharton, who had probably endeared himself to Fox in starting at LT for a division winner. And Marshall stole his role from Reggie Howard (who, admittedly, was aging), who started 29 games over two years, including the SB season. If it was just about veteran status, we’d have seen Diggs, Wharton/Foinu, and Howard taking their roles, regardless of the “results/capabilities.”

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 28, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Wharton was going to be moved to guard regardless

Leaving a starting spot open at tackle, Beason was able to play well along with Diggs being less than world beating to win his starting role…and yeah of course he isn’t going to lose the job when he’s playing well. I never implied that they would have their job yanked away when they played well.

by Twist Of Cain on Dec 28, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Wharton and Diggs

both played different positions (LG and Will) and both also started. Beason beat out career backup Adam Seward and Otah beat out career backup Jeremy Bridges. Howard had also been gone for 2 years, and was brought back to play special teams.
Charles Godfrey also got the FS job as a rookie because there was no one else at the position.

Meanwhile, Foster over Dwill, Jake over Moore, provide a precedent that Fox is reluctant to bench veteran players.

by Mr. E on Dec 28, 2009 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry...

Beason began his career as an OLB until Morgan went down. That was the only thing that moved him to MLB.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 28, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions  

And he was in a timeshare with Diggs

Not starting as you suggest.

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by Flowing Willow on Dec 29, 2009 3:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes he was.

He started 16 games that year, as did Thomas Davis. The remaining LB starts were split between Diggs (9), Morgan (3), and Anderson (1.) The extra three starts were nickel formation starts that went to CBs.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 29, 2009 8:43 AM EST up reply actions  

It relates in that it was a fact that I stated that was challenged.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 29, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

They're still arguing..

Between Foster and Williams… and next week, San Marino is going to war with China.

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 29, 2009 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

So he began the game

Maybe Diggs got most of the playing time, I seem to remember that.

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by Flowing Willow on Dec 30, 2009 4:39 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't.

And if Diggs was truly getting more of the snaps, Beason was pretty damned impressive. Here are their stats from the first three games of that season:
Diggs-2 tackles (1 solo), all in the Week 2 game vs. Houston.
Beason-13 tackles (13 solo)

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 30, 2009 9:35 AM EST up reply actions  

The title of this post should be....

DeAngelo Williams: A 5 Star Rusher!

Die hard Carolina Panther Fan, repren' black and blue from southern Cali

by pantherfan95323 on Dec 27, 2009 8:44 PM EST reply actions  

haha..

You had me thinking I had messed something up, then I realized it was the “!” instead of “?” :)

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 27, 2009 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Just did a little calculation...

With Stewart going to 1008 yds for the season today, Double Trouble becomes only the 6th duo to each exceed 1000 yds in a season.

Okay, probably everybody knew that — but did you know that the highest total of the other 5 was 2179 yds, by Dunn and Vick in ’06.

Even if D-Will doesn’t play next week, if Stewart gains 65 yds, our boys will total 2180, the all-time high for teammates. Pretty big accomplishment.

by bigdavis on Dec 28, 2009 12:03 AM EST reply actions  

The first I knew, the second I had no idea! I’ll certainly be cheering for Stewart to gain those 65 yards, that’d be pretty awesome. I’m pretty sure he can do it, though last time we met the Saints he only put up 28 yards on 13 carries (i believe those are the correct numbers). I don’t think Stew was up to par that day, though, he wasn’t really running like he normally does.

I wonder if Williams practices, will he play? There really is no reason to risk it unless he just wants to end the season on a high note instead of on the bench.

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 28, 2009 12:12 AM EST up reply actions  

He's going to rip the Saints for at least 100

Wish i had him in fantasy!

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Dec 28, 2009 9:30 AM EST up reply actions  

I tried..

To trade for him earlier in the season when Williams missed his first game.. Guy just ignored me (didn’t even decline), since then Stewart has went crazy. I had to play against him last week (or the week we’re finishing up tonight, that is).. I’m 4 points ahead with Sidney Rice left to play and the guy has Favre left :(

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 28, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

JAXON!

This is the 77th post on this thread, and it has 1 Rec, yet it’s slid off the active scroll bar of FanPosts — while stuff nobody replies to, or cares about, are taking up space on there.

What gives?

Can’t somebody (maybe one of the active posters who debate this topic) put up a second Rec, so it stays in the top group? Or can you make an exception? I had to look in the archives to find that I’d missed the last 4 posts. Thanks.

by bigdavis on Dec 30, 2009 3:48 AM EST reply actions  

Rec'd

I look in the archives all the time too, don’t want to miss anything. :)

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by Flowing Willow on Dec 30, 2009 4:40 AM EST up reply actions  

No need to pressure people into recommending articles.

Posters know how the software works.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 30, 2009 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Not always

I had no clue what the up button did for a while.

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by Flowing Willow on Dec 30, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm glad you guys..

Find it as interesting as I did :)

And, BigDavis, I’m going to be counting down every yard Stewart gains next week until Double Trouble officially become the most productive rushing tandem the NFL has ever witnessed.

(I say “most productive” to avoid a 25 comment debate on how one defines the “best RB duo” lol)

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 30, 2009 5:10 AM EST reply actions  

We're the best. ; )

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by Flowing Willow on Dec 30, 2009 5:17 AM EST up reply actions  

If we're getting technical...

Didn’t we actually settle on “most productive rushing duo with 1000+ yds. each?” ;)

There are several pairs who have racked up more total rushing yards, Eric Dickerson and backup Dwayne Crutchfield (2442) among them. Jamal Lewis and Chester Taylor are a more recent example (2342.) Just for fun, I’m gonna look up the current standings and FanPost ‘em to see how high they can climb that overall list. And before you say I’m dismissing the performance of Double Trouble this year, I understand that the 1000+ yard mark for each certainly suggests they’re truly sharing the load rather than relying on a single great back.

Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.

by MichaelProcton on Dec 30, 2009 9:42 AM EST up reply actions  

You are correct. Barring something miraculous I doubt they break that record, they’re saving it for next year. haha.

Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.

by D-Ranged1 on Dec 30, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

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