Carolina Panthers’ Monday Morning Optimist- 12/21/2009
by James Dator on Dec 21, 2009 10:33 AM EST
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Good morning Panther faithful, and what a glorious morning it is! We're not accustomed to seeing the Panthers dominate a game on Sundays, and we're even less accustomed to seeing it happen on the national stage, but boy-oh-boy did the Panthers bring it last night. The turned up the volume in every phase of the game, and shocked the vast majority of the football world. The Panthers played like men possessed, they played like the superstars they are. A pessimist might say ‘too little, too late' but I am an eternal optimist... and I'm insanely excited for this team. We are getting good looks at the depth of talent we have, and there are some very, very nice surprises.
So please, join me as I break down the performances from the Panthers dominant Sunday night win:
After the jump...
A funny thing happened after I wrote my ‘Hump Day Prognostication' piece on Wednesday. I checked my email at noon... nothing of note apart from some spam. When I checked at 1 p.m. I had 3 messages from upset Viking fans, by 3 p.m. I had 47 emails from Viking fans who wanted to call me all manor of names, berate my article and otherwise mock me for having the unabashed gall to pick the Carolina Panthers to win Sunday night's game. For these fans, they didn't see how complimentary I was of the Vikings throughout the article, nor did they see my disclaimer that I don't pick against my Panthers... for them, picking against the Vikings was an affront. This struck me as fairly odd; after all, why would 47 fans of a surging 11-2 team feel the need to even address an article on a Panthers' blog simply because I picked against them? Then I realized... the trap was on. The Vikings' fan base who emailed me had absolutely no ability to even entertain the idea that the Panthers could be the better team on Sunday.
I'm not going to assume that the 53 Minnesota Vikings underestimated the Panthers like those 47 fans did; however, I will definitely put forth the notion that they had no idea just how good these Panthers could be... and I say this because truth be told, I didn't know these Carolina Panthers could play like that on Sunday.
I've gone back and forth in my mind on whether to address some of the comments emailed to me. In the end, the depth and breadth or just how insulting some of these emails were leads to believe I need to post some of them, as a cathartic experience if nothing else. The names of the innocent have been protected, but I give you: Excerpts from the Viking 47.
"I hope you realize the Vikings have not given up a 100 yards to a runner in over 2 years the last time this happened was in Nov. of 2007. They shut down the Passing and running game of Cincinnati a better team than the Panthers."
Jonathan Stewart- 109 yards. Looks like we need to move that date forward a little bit!
"The Vikings are going to beat the shit out of the Panthers this Sunday."
Oh well... can't blame someone for being confident I guess. They just weren't as eloquent as I was with my prediction.
"You have no QB... Steve Smith is done and your running game is overrated. How exactly are the Panthers going to win? What is someone from Australia talking about NFL anyway?"
Matt Moore- 299 yards, 3 TD.
Steve Smith- 157 yards
Jonathan Stewart- 109 yards
Evidently this Australian knows a little more about pro-football that you sir.
"DON'T MAKE MY LAUGH! PANTHERS WIN? HAHAHA. VIKES 42 - PANTHERS 3"
To be fair, maybe he was trying to predict Adrian Peterson' rushing yards and Julius Peppers' sacks?
The emails went on like this, and these were the tamest ones. The vast majority couldn't even be edited while remaining legible for the masses. So CSR readers, thank you for letting me vent. Believe me, I'm not saying that all Vikings fans are like this select 47... and I understand since these 47 emailed me, rather than comment on the article it's likely they weren't members of the SBnation community, but in hindsight these emails were so hilarious I thought I needed to share.
OPTIMISTIC
Matt Moore- Extremely Optimistic: That's what I'm talking about! The prior two weeks I have been yearning to see a performance from Matt Moore that shows he can be an NFL caliber QB. Now I have that performance. Last night's win was the first time Moore played a great game and there were no asterisks or question marks. In 2007 ‘garbage games' for our opponents tarnished his wins, in his first two games of 2009 Moore was less than stellar.
On Sunday the Vikings were fighting to pull close to the Saints and possibly nab the #1 spot. They had something to play for... and Matt Moore outplayed them. Moore stopped overly relying on his outlet routes and took shots downfield, he got Smitty involved early and often... he did everything we need at the position. I hope this continues because the optimist in me wants to believe last night's performance was the rule, not the exception and that ultimately all Moore needed was two games to shake off two year's of rust. A stellar performance by the young QB.
Julius Peppers- Extremely Optimistic: When a DE plays so well that the opposing LT is benched you know he's doing something right! Peppers was flying all over the field on Sunday's game. Pep was in the backfield as much as Brett Favre was, constantly hounding the Mississippi Methuselah and forcing bad throws. His stat line doesn't necessarily show just how dominant he was, but those of us who watched the game saw his impact.
The best part of watching Peppers last night? His joy. It's been a long time since I've seen Pep having that much fun playing the game. Perhaps he felt stifled by Mike Trgovac's uncreative defense; perhaps he just needed a defensive philosophy change, not a change of scenery. Whatever it was that fueled him last night I also hope it fuels him to sign on the bottom line and retire a Carolina Panther... because ultimately the fan base have unconditional love for Pep and want to see him back at BoA in 2010.
Steve Smith- Extremely Optimistic: Smitty never left us, he just lay dormant... waiting to be awoken like a sleeping giant. Well, Matt Moore woke Smitty last night and what a game. He torched the Vikings' secondary after the catch and proved with every reception that regardless of what the stats say he's one of the best receivers in the NFL. I say this because when he has the ball in his hands he can take over a game better than anyone in the NFL, and I truly believe that. The Panthers have struggled getting the ball in his hands, which is why he's faltered in 2009.
Couple his amazing performance with what could possibly be the best post-game interview in Sunday night football history and you have an amazing night by Steve Smith.
Jonathan Stewart- Extremely Optimistic: Stewart had to take the full load when DeAngelo Williams went out injured, and what a great performance he turned in. Stewart squared up his shoulders and dared the Vikings to be tougher than him... they couldn't do it. If there was a one-on-one tackle on J-Stew I didn't see it, often requiring 3 or 4 players to get him on the ground Stewart's performance should be edited into an instructional film on ‘North-South' running.
James Anderson- Extremely Optimistic: Filling in for Thomas Davis was never going to be an easy task, but great play from Anderson makes it a little easier to swallow. He may not have turned in the clearly dominant performance Pep did, but his numbers speak for themselves. 11 tackles, 9 solo, 1 sack, 1 TFL, 1 PD... what an amazing game.
Ron Meeks- Extremely Optimistic: I <3 you Ron Meeks.
Geoff Schwartz- Extremely Optimistic: Schwartz was good... really good filling in for Jeff Otah. Jonathan Stewart was singing his praises all week, and maybe we should have paid closer attention to Schwartz who anchored the right side of the line and held strong.
Chris Harris- Somewhat Optimistic: We have to rib Chris a little for getting steamrolled by Peterson, but he made it up in a big way with his end zone interception.
Everette Brown- Somewhat Optimistic: In my mind too many people tout Brown as little more than a wasted draft pick and characterize him as ‘the player that cost us a 1st rounder'. Ultimately, when you see how he can play I think he's worthy of the pick we gave up. Brown is still seeing limited time, but he's currently 3rd in the NFL in sacks by rookie defensive linemen, 1st in FF by a rookie defensive lineman and 3rd in tackles by a rookie DE. In my mind we need to permanently move Peppers back to the left and start Brown on the right... there's too much speed in that pass rush for most teams to contain.
Ron Meeks is going to turn Brown into the next Dwight Freeney... mark my words and if that's the production we get out of the young speed rusher then I'm glad we gave up a 1st rounder.
Tyrell Sutton- Somewhat Optimistic: Going into the season it was assumed that Mike Goodson was going to be the third part of a true three headed monster backfield. As time goes on it looks more and more like Sutton could be that guy. When I see Sutton, I see Nick Goings... and that how I project him. He's going to be a reliable, steadfast 3rd RB who will do whatever is asked of him and bring it every second he's on the field. I love what I'm seeing from Sutton.
PESSIMISTIC
For the first time this season... none. I've been struggling to think of someone who played poorly enough to garner a negative ranking and that player doesn't exist. There's no need nit picking every bad play when players made up for them on other downs. It was just a great overall performance.
Overall Analysis
The Panthers are now 6-8, and after the Cowboys' unlikely win we are mathematically eliminated. People can say ‘why didn't we play like this when it mattered?' but ultimately seeing the Panthers play like this when we don't have anything to play for is almost more reassuring than seeing us fight when we need to. This team wasn't going to roll over and play dead for anyone, let alone a division champ. We have backups and depth players using the opportunities they are getting effectively. It bodes well for the 2010 campaign.
Next we have the NY Giants in our second to last game. While I don't expect the same level of domination as last night I do think this team can chalk up a W. Here's hoping last night's game becomes the standard for Carolina Panther football... not the anomaly.
75% Optimistic about the future as we face the New York Giants
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Comments
Wow...47 emails. Did you email any of them back yet?
That would be fun.
I’ve been waiting all morning for this post James and you didn’t disappoint. Nice read. What else can be said about Peppers performance? Stewart was fantastic, the defense looked Top 10 for a night.
Moving past the obvious stuff we’ve been ripping OC Jeff Davidson all year. Does he get any credit for calling a decent game? Okay..a decent 4th quarter?
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Smitty Post Game interview
That just cracked me up. “What are the rules and regulations?”..Smith: “89”. LMAO still at that one.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Indeed
Steve Smith post game interview
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Dec 21, 2009 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
The transcript doesn't do it justice
If anyone finds the video please link
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
http://www.sbnation.com/2009/12/21/1210409/steve-smith-on-feeding-his-family
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
He had to establish the rules and regulations?
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I saw this on youtube and wished i hadn’t turned off the game after it was over…..
I did respond to some of the nicer emails. Two of the ones above.
Basicallty saying ‘you never know in the NFL, I’m sure the Steelers didn’t think the Browns would beat them either’.
While I would love to go back now, I almost think it’s better I let them wallow in their defeat than revisit their drivel.
You know I went back and forth on Jeff Davidson… the playcalling in thr 2nd half was great, especially allowing Matt Moore to air it out, but ultimately I think the 2nd half made up for the lackluster 1st.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Dec 21, 2009 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
loser fans
there have been several times since i’ve been on CSR that other teams fans have come on CSR and did some trash talking, and were pretty disrespectful. i can’t stand it and no one ever has the balls to come back and admit they were wrong after a defeat. they’re all a bunch of little bitches.
by usana_gaines on Dec 21, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
Great stuff James
Also, I’m curious as to how many games you guys think Matt Moore needs to impress the coaching staff (assuming he did in this one) until they think Moore could be the answer for their recent qb woes? Does he need to finish up the season with two more stellar games (atleast) to make sure quarterback is not a need they would have to address in the draft?
I think Moore has to finish out the season well, I don't think he needs two more performances like last night.
First off, Moore should start the final two 100%, no doubt. There’s no reason to put Jake back in.
Now we’re eliminated Furney needs to look at what they have on the roster. Most pressing is the QB situation. If Moore puts forward two more performances of good quality (not stellar like last nigh) then I think he cements himself as a future starter. If he regresses then I think we draft for the position.
If Moore plays well the final two then I think we don’t draft a QB in 2010, if Moore starts and is horrible in the 2010 season I wouldn’t be surprised if we took one with our 1st rounder.
That being said, if we’re sitting in the 3rd or 4th round and Tony Pike is available then I think you have to take him regardless.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Dec 21, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
I think we draft for the position regardless if there's a good value.
Moore’s only under team control for one more year, and then he can go wherever he wants. After him, who else do we have on the roster you feel could be even a backup in three or four year.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
I think if Moore plays well we offer him an extension this offseason.
Not a giant multi-year deal, but a 2 year deal with some performance bonuses.
I think Jake is a solid backup for the net 3-4 years, or however long it is until he retires.
Get one more preseason to look at Cantwell and see if you can develop him into a 3rd stringer, or more.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Dec 21, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
Why?
RFAs are very rarely offered anything more than one-year tenders (and we’d probably be safe going with the second-lowest), even if they’ve been consistent starters for years (see King, Jeff.) A few good starts don’t make a guy a franchise cornerstone.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not talking 'franchise cornerstone'
Best case scenario he’s the future starter, worst case Moore is a solid backup.
Offer the 2 year deal and make it somewhat cheap in guaranteed $’s with big escalators if he takes over 85% of the snaps as a starter.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Dec 21, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
MP
I kind of agree with MP. If Moore plays lights out football, we still gotta go and get another QB or two. Jake will not be a back-up for the money he’s getting paid. he’ll get cut. but moore just jasn’t proven himself yet, and i don’t wanna be in another situation where we are fully convinced our qb is all that, and he’s not. i think we should get one or two in the draft or FA regardless of how moore plays.
by usana_gaines on Dec 21, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
Jake won't get cut.
Given the money’s already spent, that makes no sense whatsoever.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
Keeping him is even more costly
Fans won’t pay to see him throw picks another year. Attendance is way down… And starting Jake next year is a sure way to lose more money.
On the other hand a change of scenery will spark interest.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 21, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
You're totally right.
Fans will absolutely give up their PSLs if the name of Jake Delhomme is even on the roster.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
This is where I make a sarcastic remark that you've never heard of concessions, right?
But I know, that you know, that when seats are empty and people leave early, that Richardson is losing money. And yes, the value of PSLs, and the demand for owners tickets, comes back to bite Jerry.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
Do you have any definitive proof that people are showing up in any lower numbers or buying any fewer concessions?
Didn’t think so.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
Can you show numbers on how attendance is "way down"
And how it is related to Delhomme? I’ve been to every home game and while you could certainly argue that there are way more opposing teams fans there, attendance really hasn’t looked bad. Post some overall numbers.
Now of course attendance will be worse than last year – we are having a losing season. We went 8-0 at home last year and 12-4 overall.
But yeah, since you claim attendance is “way down” you should post those numbers because I’d be interested to see how bad.
Whoops!
Paid attendance is, in fact, up since last season. 2008: 73,210. 2009: 73,323
I guess people respond well to Delhomme’s struggles. Nothing better than beating on a guy.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
Nice tunnel vision there Procto
How about looking at the big picture instead of forcing your point with whatever you can come up with.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
WHAT?
How am I “forcing” my point by citing the fact that attendance is higher. That’s not my figure; I didn’t make it up. It’s a fact.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
By ignoring now vs beginning of the season...
Ignoring the past 5 years decrease, the increase in people leaving early, etc.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
We own 4 PSLs
Last year selling tickets online sold immediately… for higher value. Right now for many games you can’t even sell them for $1. I have empty seats around me every game. And people are leaving earlier, even at half-time in close games. This leads to money lost in concessions.
2006: 73,567
2007: 73,402
2008: 73,210
2009: 73,323
This year starter strong due to influx from last year. But you’d have to have a blind fold on to not realize the empty seats around you, and people leaving compared to earlier in the season.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
So it's Richardson's fault you can't make a profit because you don't want to go to the games?
Tell you what, I’ll take yours for $2 and double your return.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly! Me and many of the folks who own the empty seats around me
I really can’t believe you are arguing that attendance will not change regardless of the team’s performance.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Given that the team has been between 12 and 7 wins over the last four years and attendance has only changed by 300...
Yeah, I’m arguing exactly that.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
You are basing your whole argument on PSL ownership
PSL owners cannot sell without losing money right now. So most won’t sell and will continue to go to the games, but with less urgency… which is why the dip is not more. However, like you keep ignoring, the empty seats from a lack of interest and from people leaving early means less concessions.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
How many empty seats were there at the end of the game on Sunday?
Your anecdotal argument holds no water.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
Half the stadium left at half time
People were even calling in complaining about this on WFNZ
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, so the local sports talk radio community is gospel.
Got it.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 1:43 AM EST up reply actions
I know I know
Nobody’s opinion counts except yours. You’ve made that very clear to all of us ad nauseum
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 23, 2009 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, I've said that.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
Half? Really?
Sure they were leaving in droves in the 4th, but half the fans left at halftime? I didn’t notice much.
Shh...you didn't see things as well as southie did.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
I would add
Regardless of how Moore plays the rest of the season, if Tony Pike is available when the Panthers select in the draft they should take him.
Matt Moore looked great last night, and i have been impressed with him as a solid player every time he has gotten to start as a Panther in his career. I thought we should have gone with Moore in week 2, and that he gave us the best chance to win this season. However, the Panthers should NOT pass up on the opportunity to acquire a young talent at the QB position. Moore and Delhomme should be enough at that position to at least get the team by until the “QB of the future” is ready to be a starter.
If the Panthers were to draft Pike and then Moore really comes into his own as well, then the Panthers will have two NFL caliber QB’s and might find themselves in the SD situation with Brees and Rivers: not the worst scenario i can think of.
This off season is the right time to draft the QB of the future.
Just like every year, he'll have a shot to beat guys out in camp.
There is no way you looked at what Moore did at camp or in the preseason and said he was a better option than Delhomme or McCown. One would assume things weren’t much different in pracice.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
training camp
to be the best, you gotta beat the best. when we brought jake in here, he couldn’t beat out peete in tc. i was disappointed until peete got benched, and jake led us to the superbowl. so moore has to thoroughly outperform jake in tc to beat him out, but i still think jake will be gone.
by usana_gaines on Dec 21, 2009 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
Not gonna happen.
Why in the hell would they pay a guy $13 million NOT to be on the roster?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
Because they'll make more than that by putting fans in the seats and winning games
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 21, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
ST, why will fans not be in the seats if Jake remains as a backup?
It would be stupid to cut him and pay him the rest of his guaranteed money without keeping him on roster as a mentor.
We’re on the hook for the guaranteed portion of his contract regardless, might as well keep him in Charlotte.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Dec 22, 2009 12:22 AM EST up reply actions
I didn't mean to suggest that keeping him as a backup would bother fans
But would that really be best for next years starter? Having the coach’s guy staring over his shoulder? The guy that the entire team loves and who has a deep history here?
I don’t really know, but I have a hard time seeing him as a backup here. Seems best to just move on.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
Good point.
Doesn’t mean that it would happen, but it would be a valid concern.
by The Duke Dude on Dec 22, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
Fair point...
I think Delhomme is a rarified situation, however. I don’t see him as a Duante Culpepper, Jeff Garcia or Jon Kitna who believe they should be starting over the young guy.
Jake has never displayed an inherent sense of entitlement that some other vets display on the bench. I see the quinticential professional and leader, and I guy who can help ease the transition from him to a new player.
You’re right, he’s beloved by the locker room. So what causes more discord? Letting Jake ride off into the sunset by building up the new guy, or cutting him outright and letting the locker room know what vets mean to the organization.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Dec 22, 2009 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
I think most people think Fox is loyal to a fault
Sometimes you need to know that everything is not all rosy, and focus on football. I think you start fresh and don’t let Jake’s old ways linger around the practice field and sidelines. Not because he’s a bad guy, but because the position needs a new look.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
His old ways?
What old ways? The ones that gave him the best stats (individually and for the team) in team history?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
The ones that put him in the same caliber as Namath, right?
Jake is a large part of the identity of this team. The new QB doesn’t need that potential interference.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I agree, draft a QB now....
There’s nothing wrong with having options at QB and let em’ battle in camp. It’s not ideal to throw a rookie in the fire his first season anyway. Get one now, let him learn behind Jake and give Moore a legit chance to start enough games to show what he can do.
by John Chilton on Dec 21, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
Pats fan here (my son is a Panthers fan)
That game was pure entertainment from the start. You couldn’t have asked for more from Mr. Moore. He played smart football all night long.
Jared Allen? Please. The most dominant pass rusher last night was Julius Peppers. Favre was scrambling all night, and that pick by Chris Harris was perfect. Laughed my butt off.
Adrian Peterson? No. The best #28 last night wore black and blue. Stewart switched to beast mode and asserted his will at will.
Living in MN, my son doesn’t get to see many Panthers games on TV (we stream some). He wears his Panthers coat faithfully, and gets a lot of flack for it (especially last week). He’s looking forward to it this morning. I never saw the kid get out of bed so fast. Got a problem with the Panthers? 26-7 STFU. Love it.
My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Dec 21, 2009 11:03 AM EST reply actions
What most non-Panthers don't realize...
See. DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart are actually cyborgs with an advanced server architecture. They act as fail-over servers for each other. When one goes down, twice the power is routed to the active player, making him far more powerful than he would be on his own. If you looked really closely last night, you could see the red glow in Stewart’s eyes.
Decide for yourself…. Regular NFL running back?
Or cybernetic rushing robot?
you decide.
I just thought that was a glitch on my TV.
Thanks for the explanation. Now that I know they’re spawning terminator robots in Carolina, I’m staying as far away as possible.
Hey Dad, can we go watch a Carolina home game? No f’ing way son, no f’ing way.
My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Dec 21, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Nice one Tater
I think that was the first time I saw Stewart play with serious attitude. He is usually nonchalant when playing but he was pissed to a degree last night. Fired up and seemed to rejoice at every opportunity to lay a hit on a Viking
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Really?
I think Ronde Barber thought he brought some attitude last year on Monday Night.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
These
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Thats awesome man.
I can relate, we’re out of town fans also, my son wears his D Will jersey to school about twice a week and takes alot heat. He was pumped to wear his jersey to school today to get some payback.
There has to be one Pessimistic
Special Teams. Special Teams…. SPECIAL teams.
There were truly SPECIAL last night… in a bad way.
1) Blocked extra point. Really? This is the NFL. Up until the explosive 4th quarter, I thought that one point was going to be the difference in the game.
2) False Start before Kasay’s FG at the end of the 1st half, which apparently moved Kasay out of his range. Questionable call not trying again… I felt like the attempt he got off which was nullified by the penalty had at least 5 yards of clearance.
3) Baker had to make yet another TD saving tackle on a punt return
4) I know of at least 2 block in the back or holding penalties on returns
5) No explosiveness whatsoever on punt and kickoff returns
Special Teams were horrible.
That said… the rest of the team deserves very high marks. For all the injuries we have had to endure, and all the criticism that we have taken… we pulled together and beat one of the best teams in the league. Nothing was more fulfilling to me than seeing Peppers destroy Brett Favruh. I was having to decide which was better, watching Favre get planted by Peppers, or watching Tebow cry.
Great Article James. As Always.
Game ball for me ultimately has to go to Matt Moore. His throws were crisp, and he consistently put the ball out there where it needed to be. All this against the most feared Pass Rush in the NFL, and against one of the top DBs in the league in Antoine Winfield. I loved watching him escape the pocket on that one scramble and actally turn it into a postive gain. We watched a young QB mature before our very eyes last night. Great game Matt. A close second has to be Jonathan Stewart, for breaking the streak of games without a 100 yard rusher.
P.S. how good is this Sutton kid? And how good are we at taking obscure talent and turning them into players who can contribute whenever called upon? Matt Moore and Tyrell Sutton deserve honorable mentions last night for being underrated talent that has really flourished under the Panther leadership.
2. Not that it’s an excuse, but Williams is an undrafted FA who’s hardly gotten on the field all year. In better circumstances, he never does.
3. Absolutely, STs were pretty awful again.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
True...if Otah is playing Schwartz is in on that kick
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
thanks for wrapping up homefield advantage for the saints
im glad you didnt play like that all season, but seriously that was a terrific a$$ beating.
"I was so excited because I thought I was going to be the hero,’’ Nicks said, smiling. "I knew exactly what I was going to do - I was going to jump from the 6-yard line like Reggie (Bush).’’
-Carl Nicks
by DrewBreesManCrush on Dec 21, 2009 11:05 AM EST reply actions
Not quite, buddy.
Better hope you beat Tampa, because we’re not rolling over for you.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
“I hope you realize the Vikings have not given up a 100 yards to a runner in over 2 years the last time this happened was in Nov. of 2007. They shut down the Passing and running game of Cincinnati a better team than the Panthers.”
The Bengals might be a better team, but their offense has been pretty bad all year.
In 2007 ‘garbage games’ for our opponents tarnished his wins, in his first two games of 2009 Moore was less than stellar.
On Sunday the Vikings were fighting to pull close to the Saints and possibly nab the #1 spot. They had something to play for
I question this thought about what this game meant to the Vikings when they were willing to pull their “star” QB leading 7-6 in the fourth quarter.
As to your optimism about Peppers, sure, he played well,.as he’s prone to do a few times a year. But is he really worth retaining for what he’ll cost? He surely won’t take less than Ware’s 7/$79 mil deal, and he’s had more than one really weak stretch this season. When we were tanking in the first three games, he came up with just nine tackles and one sack. He was even worse when we were losing three of four in November, when he managed five tackles and half a sack in four games. I understand he can be a catalyst for the team, but you can’t invest heavily in a guy who’s so inconsistent. His whole side of the ball suffers when he doesn’t show up.
Brown never cost us a first. Otah did.
Let’s whoah up on those Freeney comparisons. He managed 13 sacks as a rookie. And Brown is certainly not big or strong enough at this point to hold up against the run, which means he shouldn’t be a three down player. Particularly with the DT corps we’re running out there at the moment.
And yes, Sutton is absolutely capable of being a Goings type: a cheap, versatile player who makes the 53 every year and gets a jersey every Sunday. I’d love it if he developed some ST coverage ability, but he probably doesn’t have a lot of experience having been a lead back for four years in college.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 11:24 AM EST reply actions
Brown never cost us a 1st? Yes, he did. We traded a 2010 1st round pick for the 2nd rounder which was Brown and a 4th rounder which was Goodson.
I don’t disagree with your other points. Perhaps the Vikings realized that their gameplan was all messed up and were afraid that keeping Favre out there would injure him, who knows?
As for Peppers… he’s the enigma of the NFL. I agree that he’s up and down… it’s just so hard to resist wanting to keep him when you know he has the potential for games like last night in him.
As for the Brown/Freeney comparison. I know he’s not there now… but I think he has that ability in the future. Freeney was a full time starter his rookie year, Brown has been part of a 3 man rotation with Brayton and Johnson.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Dec 21, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
brown/freeney
brown and freeney are both 6’1, and freeney only has brown by 12 pounds. brown and pep can be as dominant as freeney and mathis, but what about charles johnson. pep was hurt in november and still played with a broken arm. he has 9.5 sacks, and he will cost us less money next year if he signs a long term deal. he should get demarcus ware money, and you know if we’re willing to pay him 17 million this year, we’ll give him a 12 million a year contract.
obviously the game had great meaning to the vikings, and to say otherwise doesn’t make sense. if the vikings won, they could then win out and finish 14-2, with the hopes that the saints lose one or two more. so they definitely had something to play for, but i think we are a more talented team. the reason our record looks so bad is horrible play from jake, the time it took the defense to adjust to meeks, and the injuries. now we’ve got it together, but it’s too late for this year.
by usana_gaines on Dec 21, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
Uhh...
Peppers has never hadd a broken arm. Again, if the game meant so much to the Vikings, why were they going to pull Favre for Tarvaris Jackson?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
Read this
Steve Reed, of CarolinaGrowl.com, reports Carolina Panthers LB Jon Beason let it slip after the team’s Week 10 game that DE Julius Peppers (hand) played with a broken right hand. Peppers suffered the injury Week 9, but head coach John Fox has continued to classify it as a “messed up hand.” Beason said Sunday, Nov. 15, “Anytime you get a broken bone it’s hard. He was still getting pressure on the quarterback with basically one arm, it was unbelievable.”
by D-Angelo Grill-iams on Dec 21, 2009 10:10 PM EST up reply actions
Didn't we already know this?
I’m not saying it doesn’t show toughness, but a broken hand isn’t really a big deal on defense.
Plenty of linebackers and linemen have played with broken hands before, some played with broken arms.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Dec 21, 2009 10:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
it is a big deal
obviously you can still play with a broken hand, which pep did, and he played well, but not at an all pro level. but there are some things you can’t do with one hand in a cast. he can’t reach out and grab the qb or rb when he gets close. he also can’t put both hands on the linemen in front of hom to shed the block or toss him out the way. so it is a big deal, but he can still play. it makes me wonder, though, if pep with a broken hand was still better than a 100% brown or johnson. not only that, but at what point was pep back at 100%? was the vikes game his first game at 100% in over a month?
by usana_gaines on Dec 22, 2009 3:15 AM EST up reply actions
If you're going down that road...
Then what was his problem at the beginning of the year?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 8:19 AM EST up reply actions
I’m thinking the whole D had a problem at the beginning of the year getting attuned to the new system. Game by game it seems to click together more.
+1
But being that sort of reasoning doesn’t give MP something to complain about (especially if its jabbing Peppers), it’s blasphemy :).
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
And he did have a heck of a game against Philly
So he wasn’t invisible the first three weeks.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 23, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
Harris was injured too
And I’m a pretty big fan of what he does back there at safety. Certainly the D was playing poorly as a unit, but missing Harris only compounded the issue.
As did missing Davis and Beason for significant portions of TC.
We were also working in new DTs for weeks and weeks.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
How does that have anything to do with a broken arm?
And at $16 million a year, I’d run out there with a broken neck.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
And then collapse and die
It’s a game, it’s not worth risking serious long term health damage, if you can help it.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 22, 2009 5:51 AM EST up reply actions
It's his job.
It’s worth actually earning your millions, if you can help it.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 8:19 AM EST up reply actions
And then one questions
How materialistic are they, truly? In the end, objects of any kind are still objects.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
Exactly
I’m not questioning that it’s beneficial to earn millions of dollars, I want to be an NFL player too. But at some point you have to decide your priorites, and if walking around in a titanium hip justifiesyou earning your millions, so be it.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 23, 2009 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
If you're so afraid to get hurt you half-ass it 50% of the time...
You never should have been playing in the first place.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
Let me clarify
If you love the game you’ll give it your all, true. But for some people their health is more important, can you really fault them for that. I know you can find fault with everything, and a wonder what has happened in your life to contribute to that, but seriously, the man cares more about his health than his paycheck, what’s wrong with that?
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 24, 2009 2:23 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, you can.
If you value your health too much to play hard all the time, you should find a new job. You’re stealing—at minimum—hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 24, 2009 9:12 AM EST up reply actions
It's not stealing
If they’re willing to pay for your talent, real or perceived, it’s their money they’re giving you. If they don’t think you are earning your salary, too bad, it’s a contract that they signed. And even with that, NFL contracts are very loose, player’s seldom see half of what they sign for.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 25, 2009 1:26 AM EST up reply actions
A contract works two ways.
Yes, the employer (the team) agrees to pay. However, the employee (the player) is agreeing to perform at the best of their abilities. If someone is making a conscious choice not to give it their all all the time, they’re absolutely not holding up their end of the bargain.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 26, 2009 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
If it's a conscious choice
If it’s sub-conscious because the player values his life, I don’t see how you could fault them for that. Or prove it for that matter. This is all really just semantics anyways, no real point.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 27, 2009 2:33 AM EST up reply actions
And again...
If you’re too afraid to step foot on the football field because you might die, you should find a new profession.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 27, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
If you're too afraid, yeah
but it’s like sky-diving, you do it because you enjoy it, but at the same time you pull your parachute before you get too low.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 29, 2009 5:06 AM EST up reply actions
If you can't be inspired by money or love of the game to give it your all all the time...
Find a new profession. There are plenty of people who’ll take your spot in a second.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
And you care because?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
The game meant a lot to the Vikings.
They needed it to vie for the #1 seed, after N.O. lost — now they’ll be lucky to hold onto the #2 spot. For you to repeat your assertion that the game was meanlingless to them detracts from the exalted position you hold on this blog as its most revered and respected and knowledgeable wise man.
Many talking heads have weighed in on what was going on with the “heated discussion” that Favre and Chily had on the sidelines in the 3rd quarter — but the NFL Live guys, Trent Dilfer and Merril Hoge, had the best take on it. It’s an on-going power struggle as to which really runs the team now. Childress ‘suggested’ that Favre come out, after seeing him taking a “pounding” (his word) from our defense, especially Peppers, who caused Childress to bench their dtarting LT. Favre wouldn’t come out. Childress wasn’t doing it to “rest” Favre for the playoffs, or because the game was meaningless to the Vikings — but because the HC thought Favre was immobile and couldn’t avoid our rush. He thought the more mobile Jackson could better avoid the pressure, and that — at that point, the score only 7-6 — their defense could hold us and win the game.
Now does that answer your question as to Why? (you may disagree with the HC’s reasoning, as Favre did, but that’s the way it was, so stop trying to use the situation as a way to denigrate Peppers any more.
They needed to win out and hope the Saints lost to us or the Bucs.
That was the unlikely scenario there.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
didnt i answer this for u already?
Our offense wasn’t moving the ball…they have a great d and a mobile qb…I did this once today with u…u didn’t get the point? Or u just like downplayin the panthers?
can't wait till...
by Steve785 on Dec 22, 2009 1:04 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, to pile on to what James said
Peppers is up and down, the first three games were typical, but if you remember he turned it on after Washington, gave that speech to his team, then he got hurt. Look at his stats before the injury, then afterwards. I believe he is finally getting healthy, he abused both Loadholt, Mckinnie, and anyone else who trotted out at OT. I look forward to having him a Panther for the duration of his career.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 22, 2009 5:47 AM EST up reply actions
Unfortunately...
He doesn’t feel the same way.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 8:20 AM EST up reply actions
Says who?
Dont say Pep cause he hasnt even mentioned anythin about his contract situation since the Summer…are you basing your feelings on comments made by Peppers back in January-June of 2009?
Yeah, and his unwillingness to do anything that made it easier for the Panthers to extend or trade him.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
We always end up talking about Peppers don’t we? I do agree if Peppers wanted to be traded so badly, he could have done a lot more to facilitate the trade then he did.
by bengoodfella on Dec 22, 2009 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
No.
We don’t mention him at all when he’s invisible. Sort of like we don’t mention Moore’s performance unless he has a single good game against a team that was ready to pull their starter with a one-point lead in the fourth quarter.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
It was the 3rd quarter...
and it’s not germane to Moore’s good performance that Childress wanted to replace Favre. Moore was playing against their defense, not the Vike’s offense which was being handled by the Panthers’ pass rush (and run defense) — it’s been established that taking Favre out was to give them a BETTER chance to win, in the eyes of the HC — it certainly, as you have many times stated incorrectly, wasn’t because the game meant little to them, and it was to “rest” Favre for the playoffs.
You may not have “mentioned” Moore before this, but you’re only doing so now in a belittling way, because you’re concerned that he may replace your man Jake. I, however, have been high on Moore for weeks. So I guess I’ll have to go counter to both of the assertions you just made.
...but youre not thinking this through
if you had an opportunity to ask every NFL player would they not sign their tenders and search the market, knowing that when they did eventually sign the tender they would be getting paid over 16 mil for one season guaranteed, 100% of them would have done exactly what Pep did. Plus you convieniently forget that we didnt have a DC for most of the summer and the Panthers stubbornly didnt want to come off of the 2 #1 picks for Pep, when Allen was traded for a #1 and #3. So why is it all Pep’s fault again? There is fault to be thrown around all over. If management had done something different with Gamble’s and Delhomme’s contracts this wouldnt have even been an issue.
How do you know?
The Panthers were never offered anything concrete other than a single second-rounder. If management hadn’t extended Delhomme, they would have had even LESS cap space to sign other players. The deal dropped his cap hit by more than 20%.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 8:40 PM EST up reply actions
And you know this because you are Peppers personal shrink.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 23, 2009 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
I know it because he said it.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
Lance Briggs said it, too, and look where he is now.
Football players can have a change of mind, too.
Flexibility of thinking is not your strong point, though, is it?
I predict a similar ending
I have from the start. Peppers will re-sign long term here, just like Briggs.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 24, 2009 2:24 AM EST up reply actions
No...Childress asked to pull him but Favre said "No"
So MP makes a good point. If the Vikings really viewed this game as a ‘must win’ it would seem they would never consider pulling their #1 QB with a one point lead.
The Vikings did play flat and got whooped by an inspired Panther team.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
I'm looking at it like an 'oh crap' moment.
The Vikings O-line couldn’t keep Favre up, McKinney was a turnstile for Peppers… I think the game was still important to them, but ultimately it wasn’t worth getting Favre injured.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Dec 21, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
They may have...
Even felt a more mobile QB would have done better against our pass rush…
I wouldn’t have benched Favre in favor of speed & mobility (Jackson) but who knows what they were thinking when a game everyone perceived they would dominate still only had a 1 point difference.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
They didn’t expect 20 points to get put up in the forth
can't wait till...
by Steve785 on Dec 22, 2009 1:08 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Here's the story.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4761249
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
And more...
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4761249
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
Whoops...
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
And finally, the key quote:
“Yeah, there was a heated discussion, I guess you would call it,” said Favre, who finished 17 of 27 for 224 yards with no touchdowns and an interception. "We were up 7-6 at the time. No secret, I was getting hit a little bit. I felt the pressure on a lot of plays. We had seven points. So I think everyone in the building was like, ‘They’re not moving the ball, they’re not getting points.’ Brad wanted to go in a different direction and I wanted to stay in the game.
“We were up 7-6. Yeah, it’s not 70-6, but we’re up 7-6. So I said, ‘I’m staying in the game, I’m playing.’ I don’t know if it was exactly to protect me, or we had seven points, I’m not sure. That’s his call. But we talked it out. We didn’t have time, I didn’t have time to sit there and say why or what.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Well of course he does.
He’s been that way for years.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
How ironic..
I finally unpacked my jersey’s last night. I decided to go with my 89, meanwhile my girlfriend wore (well, I made her wear, not much of a football fan… yet) her 28.
How pleasant it was to see them both come out with big games… of course, I lost in the semi-finals of my fantasy league because Williams went down but a Panthers performance like that made it all worth it.
Great article, James! I haven’t been online much lately but I had to come on here to read the MMO!
I was thrilled with Peppers performance, I’d definitely sign him long term. He may be inconsistent but who are we going to get that IS consistent with even half the ability to control the game? I also agree the Brown is going to be a special player.
Overall, great game. Hope we finish out the season this way and come back next year even better.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
"He may be inconsistent but who are we going to get that IS consistent with even half the ability to control the game?"
This would be fine if Peppers had something between dominating and invisible. But when he’s not controlling a game, he might as well not suit up. At $12+ mil a season, that’s a huge drain on your cap space and your ability to compensate for those kinds of games.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
Also
The importance of being able to get some pressure with only a 3 or 4 man rush cannot be overstated. If you have a guy who can at least hurry a QB or command a double team in that scenario, that means a lot. And that won’t show up in a stat column.
Do you have any sort of definitive proof that's occured?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
One game does not define a player's impact or abilities.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
One game does not
And I know you love Peppers about as much as I love Delhomme… but the fact is, Peppers can be the most dominating DE in the NFL when he turns it up that extra notch. OC’s have to plan for that, because the worst thing you can do is not have a plan in place to contain Julius Peppers in a game where he is 110%. We saw that last night. The Vikings thought their LT could matchup on Peppers 1 on 1, and it was not happening. Late in the game we saw weak double teams on him that were getting split and busted up immediately. Many times, Peppers was held or facemasked and it was not always called. They simply had no answer for him man on man, and they had no game plan for him in advance.
Now, he cannot command a salary next year like he did this year. His only chance to be a Panther again (I hope) is a reasonable long term deal, that takes into account his inconsistency. He should be paid above average for a DE, but not on the top tier, because he has proven to be consistently inconsistent.
Regardless. I want him to retire a Panther. He is a dominant force, and when he is on.. he is ON.
+1000
Besides, we’re not judging Peppers by one game.. We already know what his abilities are, we’re just hoping that we can get him stuck in “ON” mode like he was last night and signed to a long term deal, even if it is a bit more expensive than your average DE.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
At some point, don't you quit chasing that dream?
Peppers isn’t a first-, second-, or third-year player. He’s a ninth-year vet who has been inconsistent throughout his entire career. It’s hurt this team, particularly in key games and in the playoffs (where his 16-game pace would get him about 40 tackles and 4 sacks.) Why don’t we spend the ridiculous money he’ll demand on multiple players who will bring their “extra notch” every game?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
What good is bringing their "extra notch"
If they don’t have the talent to dominate like Pep? I’d rather have a little ProBowl caliber, circumstantial up and down than top-notch mediocrity.
Plus your main argument against Pep was that he never shows up against good teams. So after yesterday why should we listen to you now?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
"why should we listen to you now"
Why should you ever have? This is a two-trick pony, guys, whose only rants are Love Delhomme and Hate Peppers.
Even on this thread, the Optimist thread, we’re now reduced to arguing as to Peppers’ contribution, when any sane observer could only be OPTIMISTIC about his role last night.
What are you saying?
That you think last night was his only good performance?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Not what I was saying at all.
I was questioning MP’s continued criticism of Peppers, even after Pep exhibits a dominating performance, and especially in light of the fact that this thread is designed to be about players who’ve deserved praise.
I don’t think it was Pep’s only good performance by a long shot.
Sorry, but if a single sack and nothing else in a game that didn't matter constitues "showing up..."
We’re not going to get very far with Peppers.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
You are on an island
Hurrying, disrupting a QB, trying to strip the ball, etc… are all part of dominating.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
EVERY PLAYER SHOULD BE TRYING EVERY GAME!!!
What’s so hard to understand about that?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
Because it's about making plays and winning
Even though I give him more credit than you, I agree that Pep seems to take some games off. But that doesn’t stop him from being one of the best in the league… It just stops him from being one of the best ever.
Replacing him with a mediocre player that tries real hard won’t be the same. Talent is a part of it too.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 21, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
$8 million twice does not get you "mediocre" players.
First, we could get Jared Allen (who’s inarguably had a better and more consistent year than Peppers) for less than $12 million a year. The extra $4 mil could go to an FA QB, WR, or backup OL. We could get Aaron Schobel (who’s very close to Peppers in sacks and far ahead in total tackles) for $8.6 million. We could get Trent Cole (another player with more sacks than Peppers) for barely $4 million. Robert Mathis could be had for $6.7 mil. So don’t pretend it’s impossible to find quality players who don’t take up 20% of your cap space.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:31 AM EST up reply actions
You are very right. Assuming we could get Allen for way less than his 2009 salary
Trent Cole is only better than Pep in total tackles… nothing else. Pep does so much more. And that makes a huge assumption that he will perform the same as he has in Philly.
I’m not saying it can’t be done. But filling Pep’s shoes, PDs, FFs, Sacks, QB hurries, etc. is way more difficult then what you are giving him credit for.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
"Way less than his 2009 salary?"
Allen’s being paid exactly $7.76 million this year, and his cap number is only $11.66, or less than two-thirds of Peppers’.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
thats because....
Allen isnt playing on a franchise tag that pays him 20% higher than the average salary of the top 5 paid DE…of which Allen is one. Pep wouldnt be getting that much either if they had simply paid him what he wanted in the first place, which was around what Ware got. Now that looks like a bargain…
Not true at all.
They offered him an extension that would have made him the highest-paid defensive player in NFL history. HE turned it down.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
that was before...
Trgo was “dismissed” and Meeks was brought in. That was also at the beginning of the 2008 season. Do you know that they offered that to Pep after the defensive coaching changes happened??? No. Besides, it would have been stupid for Pep to sign when he knew they would have to pay him that amount of money guaranteed. Say what you want about the man but hes about to collect around 30 mil from 2008-2009 in guaranteed monies and is a top 3 DE in the league.
His contract is like 74Mil over 6 years.
And he made 21Mil last year. And they just restructured him a 4Mil bonus into this year.
Regardless he’s not leaving Min for 12Mil.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
He's also never cost them $18+ mil on the cap.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
because...
The Vikes didnt have to pay him his tag number because they made a long term deal with him. If that doesnt happen, Allen is tagged with the “gasp!” same amount of money owed to him that Pep just got. Besides that, numbers do not tell the whole story, so if youre wanting Pep to have 3 sacks a game and 20 tackles in a defense that never blitzes, youre being foolish. EVERYONE, fans and media agree that Pep played crazy good last night, so good that Childress was fearful of Farve’s life and wanted to take him out of a 7-6 game. Why do you not recognize that Peppers is our best defensive player and should retire here?
Given Allen was a Chief when he hit free agency...
That’s absolutely not true. And if they had cared to franchise him, the cost would have been less than $9 million
I don’t want Peppers to have three sacks a game. I want him not to go a month without a sack (as he did in November and several times over the course of his career.) I want him to refuse to be single-blocked by tight ends and fullbacks (as has happened many, many times even just this year.) And do you really think anybody was concerned Favre was going to be killed? Wow. That’s something.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
You and eyesack get my vote for best Screen names
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
That's why they don't play the game on paper
Peppers, by all accounts of people who actually watched the game, and those who get paid to comment on these performance, was dominant last night.
Officially, he did not have great numbers. Sure. But he did do all the things expected of dominant Defensive End in the NFL. He disrupted plays, both run and pass. He constantly put hits on the opposing QB and clearly had him rattled. He commanded double teams and drew holding penalties. At this point, Peppers isn’t playing for combine scouts. He doesn’t have to look good “on paper.” Everyone knows what kind of play he is capable of. Some question his ability to play at that level every week, and that tendency is noted… however, they all know that he has more ability than just about any DE in the league.
Should we be paying him $16m this season? no. Should we pay that or more next season? no. Do I think Peppers attitude has changed about how he feels playing in Ron Meeks system and for the Panthers? yes. I think he signs a long term deal that more accurately reflects that boom or bust playstyle he has shown… because he knows his value is right here in Charlotte.
Pep should have had 2 sacks
The time he had Favre in his grasp, Pep was pulled over backwards by one of their OLmen, freeing Favre to escape his grasp — that should have been called as a Hold, as Pep was literally tackled from behind.
I agree with you completely about his retention as a Panther. And I posted last night that his apparent enthusiasm for the game indicates that his stated wish to leave last January was owing to his idiotic agent — he can readily see that Meeks’ new system utilizes his talents optimally, and I think he’ll make some concessions in a long-term contract negotiation this off-season, which will be acceptable to all fans but one. I see Peppers now happy to to be a Panther.
I have no idea who that one fan could be?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
There were MANY no calls on what should have been holds against the Vikes.
Plus what liked a block in the back on one of MN long punt returns that of course was not called. I thought that the officials consistently missed blatant holding penalties that should have been called against the Vikings.
If Peppers is constantly "held" and it's never called...
The professional football referees are a lot more likely to be right about it than you.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
Make no mistake about it
When Peppers had a hold on Favre and his linemen grab Peppers from behind by the shoulderpads and pull him backward… That is a hold and a missed call.
A joke right?
I know it’s unreasonable to think that sporting officials were making certain calls in favor of NFL golden boy Brett Favre. No way would a referee EVER make an incorrect call in favor of the more famous or more popular player.
Why would it surprise anybody that officials have their own personal biases, or even possibly have an agenda to uphold form the league?
Oh, so we're pretending Peppers is some unknown?
I like that.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
Saying...
Peppers is on the same “attention” level as Favre is indication that the prescriptions need a refill.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
I didn't say that at all...
But saying that Peppers—a multiple time ALL PRO—isn’t famous is patently absurd.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
As if the officials have never missed calls...
That’s hilarious.
I’ll trust my own eyes more than a ref’s call… ‘An unbiased ref’ goes no further than the saying itself.
I typically agree with them but there have been a ton of “missed” or plain wrong calls.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
last time i checked its a what have you done for me lately league
can't wait till...
by Steve785 on Dec 23, 2009 12:15 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
So James Harrison is the best back in the league, and the third-best ever?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 1:44 AM EST up reply actions
See MP, this is the part where you would be sarcastic and condescending by saying, “James Harrison isn’t the best back in the league, he is the reigning Defensive Player of the Year, please pray tell who the running back James Harrison plays for” if someone else had written the above sentence.
But I won’t do that. I think you meant Jerome Harrison…and you are right one game doesn’t define a player’s abilities even in a “what have you done for me lately” league. The idea Peppers will JUST NOW (after being in the NFL since 2002) start to turn it on and be the overwhelmingly dominant guy he should be after one game on national television (his last chance to show the world his value before he is a potential FA) is a bit fanciful. I love the dominant Peppers but I can’t help but feel if Ron Pitts and Brian Billick were calling that game at 1pm on a Sunday we may not have seen that performance.
by bengoodfella on Dec 23, 2009 8:32 AM EST up reply actions
jeez lighten up. ur pessimism is dragging down the mood after a great game last night. thats why u gotta love james’ optimism and pep doesnt dominate every game but he is the main focal point of everyone playing against our D. i agree they need to put money toward depth and what not but how can u be a panther fan and not want to see pep sign here?
Who's being pessimistic? I'm being REALISTIC.
If Peppers’ cap number destroys our ability to stock quality depth for backups and special teams (which have hurt us time and time again this year), it’s better for the team to let him go.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
His cap didn't hurt us nearly as bad as Delhomme's shaky right arm did!
Really, if Jake could hit Smitty deep this year like he could in the past, and was at least middle of the league in INTS… then we’d be talking playoffs right now. Pep’s salary can’t buy Jake more accuracy.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Pep's salary COULD have bought some receivers who could get open.
Or some defenders who could have actually played well before November rolled around.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
I'm gonna call up Jerry Richardson
and recommend you to take Hurney’s spot — it’s obvious to all of us here that you’re the most astute manager of cap allocation that the NFL has ever encountered. And all this from someone younger than Matt Moore. Amazing.
First you say Peppers’ salary could buy us a slew of ST players; now receivers who could get open. Sounds like witchcraft to me.
Friggin Peppers!!!
And I thought they were just having a hard time finding a compliment to Smitty these past 6 years… had no idea a slew of them were out there.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Hell, they're everywhere!
Next week, MP’ll blame Pep for global warming, or the home foreclosure problem.
If you think about it, there’s no end to the damage that damn contract of Peppers has caused the free world.
classic
obviously you can’t fight global warming when you have to pay a guy that much. all those cheap DL he named are all sitting around unemployed. none of those guys would sign anywhere for what he suggests. that is their current contract, but if they became free agents, they wouldn’t sign for the same amount. and we’ve been going through receivers every year, and none are as good as moose.
by usana_gaines on Dec 22, 2009 3:21 AM EST up reply actions
My dog got hit by a car 5 years ago..
Damn that Peppers, it’s all his fault.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
Delhomme's Salary could have too.
Where was the money better spent results wise, Jake or Pep? Who has actually COST us games, Jake or Pep? Who has actually had a hand in WINNING games for us this year Jake or Pep? Besides, if our front office doesnt want WR, whats your point?
THIS!
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
Delhomme's contract REDUCED HIS CAP NUMBER!
He was willing to help the team. Peppers did nothing of the sort. And if you believe that having your highest-paid player do nothing doesn’t cost games, you’re crazy. And yes, Delhomme absolutely won the Redskins game for us, as well as the Atlanta home game while Peppers was invisible.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
thats insanity...
So your saying that even though Delhomme’s contract reduced our cap number for this lost season ( a season where Jake actually cost us 3-4 games by his lonesome, no disputing that) is actually better for the team, when now we are handicapped with a guy that cant start here anymore yet we owe him additional money guaranteed over the next couple of seasons? With no succession plan for QB in place? How does that thinking help the team? And Delhomme hasnt won a game for us in 3 yrs. Our RUNNING GAME won against Atlanta and the Redskins. If you mean that Jake didnt have as many turnovers in those two games and that helped us win, I suppose you are correct.
He "can't start here anymore?"
I heard that about Kurt Warner once. Ask the Cardinals how that’s working out. And no, the running game didn’t win games when Delhomme put the offense on his back in the fourth quarter. But you’re certainly right about three years ago. DeShaun Foster was definitely winning us tons of games.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
Doyou really want one of the league's leader in turn overs as this teams QB?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Do you want one of the league's leaders in dropped passes as this team's #1 wideout?
Yeah, that’s Steve Smith.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
That's exactly my point Procto!
That’s Jake throwing to Smith in 2009.
When Moores throwing to him… He averages over 100ypg, and has a season high in receptions and yards.
It’s not that Moores so great… it’s that THIS year Jake is that bad!
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Oh, right!
So when Delhomme throws to a guy and it hits him in the hands, it’s the QB’s fault when he drops it. Good call, chief.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
You're right.
Those few times, it was Smith’s fault… The other countless times were definitely on Delhomme, though.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
If it doesn't hit you in the hands, it's not a drop.
Hence the word “drop.”
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
If it misses your hands by 5 yards,
yet hits the opponents’ hands, and gets run back for a TD, it’s a bad throw.
Hence the word, ex-starting quarterback.
If the receiver runs the wrong route and the QB throws it where he was supposed to be, it's the right throw.
Hence the word (sic), lack of accountability for your favorite players.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 1:45 AM EST up reply actions
I got an idea since you are so enamored with Jake
Next year when he’s a backup on somebody else’s roster… spend your time at their blog trying to convince them that he’s as good as Joe Namath.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
So what exactly will you say when he's on the roster and starting games next year?
Will you be trying to convince me that Matt Moore’s better than Peyton Manning?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 1:46 AM EST up reply actions
I never claimed Moore was better than Manning
You are the one that said Jake was as good as Namath. Were all still trying to figure that one out.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 23, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
It's called chemistry
One play it’s over your head, the next behind you, the next intercepted, finally one day one hits you in the chest and your not expecting that.
Your attempts to blame this season on Smitty and convince people that Delhomme is as good as Namath, is just flat out ridiculous.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
You're really comparing dropped passes to turnovers?
One is a mistake you can easily make up for, the other is often a game changer and requires a TD to make up for (which Jake wasn’t doing).
Really?
How do you make up for a drop on third down that kills a drive?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
You make up for it the next drive
But how to you make up for a bad game that ends your playoff run, or continuous turn overs that wreck an entire season?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
Make a grab for nice yardage the next series.
How do you make up for a turnover if you’re a QB? You have to score a TD – much more difficult (and rare).
really?
Kurt Warner had injury issues with his hands, causing him to fumble all the time. He fixed the issue by starting to wear gloves. Warner is one of my favorite QB’s of all time and probably the wrong one to try to use as an example. Warner has the three highest passing totals in SB history, a SB ring and led the Cards! to a SB berth. Warner and Delhomme are not even in the same galaxy. And Delhomme didnt put the offense on his back. To say that Jake chucking duck like throws in the air for Smitty to go get is “putting the team on his back” is incorrect. How do you explain the multiple games this year where Jake threw HORRIBLE passes to the other team multiple times? Were those the receivers faults? Or the ones that were intercepted due to Jake lofting the ball in the air like a hot air balloon? Three years ago, (2007 season) Jake wasnt even playing, we had a carousel of QB’s and still won 7 games. So yes the running game (Foster and Williams) did help us win our games. Your boy Jake was sitting at home with a busted elbow.
Yeah we won seven games.
Two of them came in the first three with Delhomme under center. That’s a .666 winning mark.
The next five took thirteen games to get. That’s a .384. We were definitely great without Delhomme.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
Dez, you've hit on something there.
All of Procton’s energy is spent on trying to convince us that Peppers has ruined the team by his greed in being overpaid, yet not producing consistent results to win games. And at the same time defending Delhomme for restructuring his contract, out of the goodness of his heart, even though it’s still vastly more than he deserves this year, owing to the (I can’t say wildly inconsistent, because it has a certain consistency to its poorness) fact that his turnovers have cost the team far more games than Peppers’ off days ever have.
That’s having your cake, and yet swilling it down, too, isn’t it? Or is it just chewing out of both sides of your mouth?
Thanks for another great post James. To see not one thing in the pessimistic category is the icing on the cake (I’ve come to think of the ST as just an understood pessimistic category). I didn’t really even expect us to win this game, the most I was hoping for was not an embarrassment; wow, was I proven wrong and thankfully so. Deep balls to smith, dominant defense, and power running game: that’s what I became a fan of the panthers for and that’s exactly what they gave us last night.
+1
Last night was a fun game to watch.
by panthersnbraves on Dec 21, 2009 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
Matt Moore
I hope this game helps Moore develop the confidence he needs in his game going forth. Having come out of the game the better QB against a HOF’r should do wonders for him.
Did Smitty say he wants to transition to a #2 receiver?
Michaels was saying something like that. Don’t know if it was because he’s frustrated about not getting more balls, or he just wants help, or he doesn’t want to carry the load anymore. But would mean he’d take #2 pay? Hes far from #2 now, but as he gets older, it’d be awesome to keep him around long term as a #2.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 21, 2009 1:28 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I can't imagine Smitty wanting to be a #2 WR
He calls himself the ‘playmaker’ during intros.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
I could see him saying it though, with his pity me routine
Accepting a backseat role is another thing
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Apparently you both need to be filled in on the rules and regulations...
89.
That’s all there is to it.
I believe he said he wanted to be a slot reciever only....
guess take on a less versatile role, but he’ll always want to be #1
by John Chilton on Dec 21, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe he had an epiphany watching Wes Welker torch us 2 weeks ago
He’d fit that role great! Provided we had a Randy Moss like deep threat to compliment.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Agreed...
…That was my take on the comment. He would be a killer slot guy. Can you imagine a LB trying to cover him?
by The Duke Dude on Dec 22, 2009 9:53 AM EST up reply actions
Isn't that how he made a name for himself?
Yards after the catch, making people miss, etc
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah...
…that’s what I mean. Instead of him matching up on a corner every play, putting him in the slot gives a greater chance for a favorable matchup. BTW, I have no idea, but does anyone remember if Steve started out playing in the slot or outside?
by The Duke Dude on Dec 22, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Great game, I was thoroughly pleased that we came out with that kind of effort in a prime time game even though our playoff lives are over.
Here are some things that need work:
The special teams did look awful once again, and I don’t know if it comes down to a lack of depth or what but I still say Crossman needs the axe. Oh, and Rosario should not be on any ST unit ever. He’s terrible.
There was a lot of confusion on the O-line in certain situations leaving a couple guys completely unblocked. (Like on the end-around and on J. Allen’s sack). Wharton really shouldn’t be playing tackle, and I question the contract we gave him. At least we have Gross and Otah locked up for a while. That being said the O-line did a good enough job to give Stewart a 100 yd game on the ground and gave Moore just enough time for 300 yds passing.
Moore did a tremendous job of navigating in the soft spot of the pocket and releasing the ball just in the nick of time. He also stood in and was willing to take a couple hits to get the pass off. He looked very composed and didn’t throw any picks. Not to mention his 3 td and 299 yd game. That being said, he is still sailing balls, and if he can work on being more accurate, I really think he could be a top 15 starting QB in the NFL. Otherwise he will only be a plus backup.
Wharton's a fine tackle.
When’s the last time he got to line up next to an adequate guard when he was on the outside?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
Mike Wahle doesn't count?
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 22, 2009 6:07 AM EST up reply actions
Sure he did, when he first got here.
And I seem to recall we had a pretty solid line in ’05. Certainly good enough to win us the division. But Wharton was hurt in ’06 and Wahle was a shell of his former self by ’07.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 8:23 AM EST up reply actions
Fair enough
Wharton is an average LT though, there really isn’t any denying it. He is much better at guard.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 23, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
Top 15 QB
Should be good enough with the running game and defense.
by panthersnbraves on Dec 21, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
The optimist is always a great read but even better after a win.
It was great seeing the Panthers come up big on a national stage in front of the home crowd. It’s been a difficult season but hopefully it will be looked back upon as the foundation of greater things that lied ahead. Meeks defense is starting to click on all cylinders, reserve players are gaining valuable experience and hopefully the front office is getting a clear picture of what our offseason priorities are. I’m really looking forward to seeing how Moore does in these final games and seeing if the defense stays on its current roll.
Hypothetical scenerio..
For those considering trading Stewart away, how would you have felt seeing Williams go down knowing Sutton and Goodson were your two back ups? I don’t doubt Sutton would have made do as he seems to be very talented but I doubt he would have punished them the way Stewart did.
I felt comfortable knowing Stewart would be taking over if Williams couldn’t come back, despite watching my fantasy team die.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
We obviously wouldn't make that trade with the current personnel in place.
But if we got an offer before the draft, it would certainly be something worth exploring. When you look at the RB position, it’s one of the easier spots to fill in the draft without spending a premium pick on it. With the fundamental strength of our ground game and the quality of our OL group, one would think we could find a good mid-round back that would be a serviceable #2. Of course, this assumes that Williams could handle the increased workload of being a true #1.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
Huh?
He had 866 carries his last three years in college. It was in CUSA against powerhouses like Marshall and Tulsa, but he did take the carries.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
Stewart's foot is his big question mark
If they are confident that it won’t be a nagging problem, then he’d probably be the better keep… And it’s REALLY hard to say that. But he’s slightly more versatile and DeAngelo probably has higher trade value. Goodson is a major project, with huge upside and downside. Him and Sutton should be capable enough to let DWill or JStew go.
I’d much rather improve our passing game and let one go, than keep both and continue with this one sided offense.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
You might be right, but..
I see D-Will having a much greater longevity. I love watching D-Will bob & weave and escape tackles, and I love seeing J-Stew use himself as a battering ram, needing three guys to bring him down, but I tend to think Williams’ ability to escape the abuse could mean a longer career. Stewart’s a great back now, but in four years or so those hits could really start catching up with him.
Has Stewart been forced to sit out a regular season game yet?
I recall DeAngelo sitting out multiple times with injuries, but Stewart most of the time playing through his. You make a good point though. Regardless, it seems much easier for this team to find running backs than receivers… If we can get a good one, we should grab him!
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
He's never missed a game.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
incorrect
he missed a couple as a rookie, but i think they were the first two. i think trading stewart would be a good idea if it was clearly to our advantage, but most likely, that won’t happen. i think it’s not even an issue until one of those guys contract comes due and the agent wants some crazy money. stewart is not as good as d-will, but could be a top 10 back in this league, or a top 5, maybe.
by usana_gaines on Dec 21, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
How do you know Stewarts not as good?
I have a feeling we saw DWills ceiling last year… And it was mighty impressive. But for a reason I can’t completely explain, I’m more worried about Stewart going to another team and dominating.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
No he hasn't.
16 games last year, 14 this year.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StewJo00.htm
http://www.nfl.com/players/jonathanstewart/profile?id=STE770966
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/565654/jonathan-stewart
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=11247
But hey, don’t let facts get in the way of your argument.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
A few thoughts . . .
To start with Mr. Stewart. Man the more I watch him play the more I prefer him over Williams. He reminds me of Walter Payton the way he punishes those trying to stop him.
Next: Matt Moore, finally people got to see his potential. The longer he gets to play the more familiar he will become with the receivers and the playbook. His confidence level started growing last night as well!
Good things come in threes and here is another one of my top three: Our replacement tackles. We lose two stellar offensive tackles to injury and then their replacements come in and do the job they did last night was awesome! This will improve our depth for next season as well!
Peppers: Yes he showed up this game. But I still cannot get the taste out of my mouth of his zero tackles against the Patriots. I was a huge fan when he first came into the league, but then he played as Jared Allen does now,never taking a play off and just happy to cause havoic.
Closing note: special teams needs to really watch film and learn from their mistakes.
It really is pretty crazy to compare Williams' first two years in the league with Stewart's.
Stewart has a much better starter in front of him, but he’s destroying DeAngelo’s production.
I do wonder, though, what this crap about Moore’s “familiarity” is. He’s been in this system for three years, and the personnel isn’t much different. What is so hard about stepping in and knowing how to get the team lined up?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
Agree with MP on this one. Moore has been in the system for three years, he better know the offense by now. Maybe I am a pessimist but I also see how he overthrew his shorter routes early in the game and missed Kenneth Moore on that 2 pt conversion. He throws a good deep ball but he needs to work on his intermediate and shorter routes.
This game was frustrating more than anything for me. I saw a team that can beat the best teams in the NFL and I saw Peppers do what I would love to see him do more often than he does. Him abusing McKinnie, that should be done more often. I am pretty torn on him coming back next year based on this year.
by bengoodfella on Dec 21, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Give him a break
He stepped in and gave us 299 and 3 TD’s. How much time has he gotten to work with the 1st team offense in those 3 yrs? Continuity and rhythm come whenever players work together. Can you say with any certainty that the receivers were running the correct routes?
I did see him getting the ball to Smitty, something that Jake has had trouble with. At the least, lets give a chance throughout the year, and if Jake stays around, let him know that he will have to earn the starting job over Moore.
by D-Angelo Grill-iams on Dec 21, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
Can you say with any certainty that the receivers were running the correct routes for Delhomme?
I know for a fact that Smith has twice admitted to blowing two routes that led directly to interceptions that were returned for TDs.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
Most routes have read options
and the QB and the WR have to be “on the same page” – that comes from repetition.
Give Jake the clipboard and the headset, and show Jeff Davidson the door.
by panthersnbraves on Dec 21, 2009 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
Thats the difference
Delhomme threw INT’s and Moore didn’t. Where’s Delhomme’s “familiarity”? How long has he been in the system? SInce ‘03? I’ve seen enough of him to know that we need a change.
by D-Angelo Grill-iams on Dec 21, 2009 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
Incorrect routes aren't the cause of underthrown balls
Bottom line now that Jakes out, Smittys getting the ball more, and there’s less INTs. It can’t just be a coincidence.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
And Moore would know about underthrown balls.
The “great throws” to Barnidge and both TDs to Smith were huge underthrows.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
Smith only had 1 TD
And it went over 2 defenders right to Smitty. Hoover and Stewart caught the other 2 TDs.
More importantly, the last time Jake threw 3 TDs in a game was week 2 of 2007!
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 21, 2009 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
Smith caught a TD that was called back because of a penalty.
That was the second throw I referred to.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:39 AM EST up reply actions
Sometime's a ball has to be underthrown
It allows the receiver to work back towards the throw.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 22, 2009 6:16 AM EST up reply actions
When was the last time Jake threw 3 TDs in a game?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
Are we really that excited about his one-yard TD?
Jake had three or four TDs just last year that were taken away by the RBs when the receiver went down inside the five-yard-line.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
And what happened this year when Jake threw in the red zone?
Be honest.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
How many passes did he get a chance to throw to a wide open FB from a yard out?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
Be honest
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
Are you implying guys worked harder to get open when Moore was playing?
Interesting…
What you are witnessing is not that Moore is a great QB. But rather that this team is very good, but was being dragged down by a struggling QB.
And that’s the honest truth!
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I'm not implying anything.
I’m saying that a dumbed-down playbook makes it easy for a QB to succeed. I didn’t see any one-yard FB flares that Jake could throw for TDs earlier in the year.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
Dumbed-Down???
They tried in the middle of the season using Jake as not much more then a decoy and only letting him throw occasionally in safe scenarios. You can’t get more dumbed-down then that!
Moore took 4 shots in the endzone and turned it into 21 points. And the TDs to Stewart and Smith were far from dumbed-down.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
Jake missed Hoover in the flat on 2-3 yd passes more than once this year.
I recall Hoover dropped one that should have been caught, another 2 were uncatchable. They weren’t attempted in the EZ, however. I don’t see how that’s considered “dumbing down,” to try a play in the EZ that hasn’t worked with another QB in the middle of the field. I’d call it imaginative and bold. When a guy’s as wide open as Hoover was in the EZ, it was a brilliant piece of misdirection on Moore’s part.
So explain your concept of a “dumbed-down playbook.” I’d like to hear just how familiar you really are with the Panthers’ playbook. Did they show it to you when they were discussing the intricacies of cap management?
That was a good underthrow
too bad for the “mysterious” hold, but if that ball wasn’t underthrown it was a pick- good adjustment by Smitty to get to it… luck… maybe, but that ball was where only Smitty could make the play
Especially since he interfered with Winfield.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe he wasn’t interfering but telling Winfield about “the rules and regulations” which Smith felt he needed to know?
by bengoodfella on Dec 22, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
Could be.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Winfield carried on as if he were interfered with
So you buy that? Every CB and S out there pleads for a flag when they’re beat on a pass play. The replay showed no evidence of any contact or pushoff on Smith’s part; the ref’s were right there and didn’t call it, and the announcers said no contact, as well.
But if you can’t get anybody to bite on your “underthrow” theory, might as well claim that Smith interfered, huh? Else you’ll have to grudgingly admit it was a great pass — one that Delhomme sadly can’t make anymore.
it was a bad throw
If winfield wouldn’t have busted his ass he could bof picked that 1.. but snith did have a step on him and if it was infront of him then the ball would have been where on 89 could catch it. The td that was called back was a nice underthrow that was just for 89.
can't wait till...
by Steve785 on Dec 23, 2009 12:29 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
The replay showed Smith threw him to the ground.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 1:47 AM EST up reply actions
And I didn't see that.
Winfield just fell.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 23, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
I saw Winfield interfere with him too
Chicken fighting between a WR and DB is allowed.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 23, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah? I've never seen that passage in the rule book.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
Do you really own an NFL rulebook?
C’mon, be honest now.
It's available on the internet.
But keep on keepin’ on. Ignorance is cool!
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
Contact is allowed, as both players have a right to the ball
When they are chicken-fighting, it is both of them exerting that right, and therefore not a foul.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 24, 2009 2:25 AM EST up reply actions
Oh yeah, I love the fact he got the ball to Smith. That was great. I am giving him a break, I just want us to temper the expectations of him a little bit. I think there needs to be a rookie or a veteran of some sort to compete in training camp next year. The QB position is in no way fortified in my mind.
by bengoodfella on Dec 21, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
They also rebuilt the o-line in Stewart's first year
Wharton and Gross were the only returning starters. I’m not so sure Stewart would have done better than DeAngelo if he was backing up Foster in 2007.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
destroying d-will's production?
are you talking about now, or comparing both player’s first two years? d-will has always averaged over 5 YPC, no matter who is on the OL. he is clearly the better back.
by usana_gaines on Dec 21, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know that DeAngelo is clearly the better back
Last year against MIN DWill only managed 27 yards. Stewart ran for 109! The most on MIN in 2 years… Could be a sign of his potential as a starter.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 21, 2009 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
A change of pace comment, if I may
I’ll propose an Optimistic (I’d go for Extremely, but that’s just my opiinion) for Gary Barnidge.
See mu related post on him, compared to Todd Christiansen, at an equal time in their careers.
His run after the catch, setting up a TD, was a beauty to watch, breaking 3 tackles and carrying a defender for 10 yards on his back.
I think we have a very good crop of TEs
Just don’t have the coaching to use them. But I’m still a Rosario fan.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Here's the post on Barnidge:
… those 8 catches, followed by the 42 and 92, were really in Christiansen’s 3rd year with the Raiders — in 1979 and 1980, he played in 28 games, yet had not a single reception — then, when he got the hang of it, he turned into an All-Pro, and should be in the Hall of Fame.
http://www.nfl.com/players/toddchristensen/profile?id=CHR290703
IMO, Gary Barnidge has similar potential. Time will tell, but if it happens, you heard it here first.
Oh, and by the way, Barnidge now has 12 receptions this year, for an average of 20+ YPC. TC never had more than a 14.4 average YPC
+1
I liked “The Playmaker”’s block on that play, and a couple of others. 5-7 extra yards every time.
by panthersnbraves on Dec 21, 2009 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
I feel like
we are sitting pretty at TE. Rosario has great hands and Barnidge has huge potential. King is the 3rd stringer in my opinion. Maybe his blocking skills are better than the other two.
by D-Angelo Grill-iams on Dec 21, 2009 5:06 PM EST reply actions
Re: "sitting pretty"
I agree about the TE position, and a lot of others, too. There really aren’t many pieces we need to add to our puzzling team to make it a strong contender again. This may be more fitting in another thread, probably to be discussed in 2 more weeks, but we have outstanding depth at LB, RB, and some would feel, I hope, as I do, at DE and DT now. And our OL is outstanding on the rush, and will improve in pass protection, with experience.
If we can improve at ST play (more coaching than personnel, IMO) and WR, we’ve got a team to be reckoned with. That’s if Matt Moore continues to shine, as he did last night; if not, we need QB help, too.
Maybe?
He’s miles ahead of either of them in the blocking department. Rosario gets called for a penalty half the time he gets left in to block, and Barnidge can’t even earn run down snaps. That says a lot.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
+1
King is much more reliable from head to toe.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I just don't think
that King has the athleticism that Barnidge or Rosario has. Barnidge is the best option for the future if we had an OC that liked to use the TE in the passing game.
by D-Angelo Grill-iams on Dec 21, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
i would love to see rosario to cut about 30 pounds and be a #3 reciever kinda like marques colston. start barnidge next year after his blocking develops and have king come in 2 TE sets as a reliable blocker. sign anquan to be #1 and steve smith as our #2
Definitely. We'll just snap our fingers and sign one of the NFL's best wideouts.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
King's not as athletic... but being more well rounded and reliable is why he's starting
I still got my fingers crossed that Rosario is the future. If he becomes a better blocker then he could be great. But we run 2 TE sets much of the time anyways… so keep em both
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I somehow don't ever think Rosario will ever be able to be a good inline blocker.
He was mostly an FB in college, and as such focused on lead blocking. He’s relatively decent in that role as a move TE/H-back, but if he’s supposed to stay in and block off the tackle, it’s a false start or a hold far too often.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 9:56 PM EST up reply actions
I don't disagree
But I’m still hopeful
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 21, 2009 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
Depth
I am praying that Matt Moore is good enough to stay, and that Peppers realizes that no one is going to give him hte huge payday.
Then the team can focus on getting even more depth at line and WR.
by panthersnbraves on Dec 21, 2009 5:41 PM EST reply actions
2010 plan for a return to dominance!
Biggest acquisition: Sign a FA stud receiver because we know we suck at developing rookies.
Draft a rookie QB to backup up Moore as the starter. And let Moore prove he’s a long term answer, or let him loose it to his under study. Or maybe sign a guy like Campbell if we don’t have to give up too much.
Fill D-line holes with some FA run-stuffers.
Keep Fox and Meeks and sign Charlie Weis as the OC.
None of this should be too difficult. Lastly, return to dominance in 2010!
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
If there is a salary cap I would love to see how all of that can get done. It sounds good though.
I don’t want to be rude, but I thought we had learned by now that whoever is the OC for the Panthers is going to call the game exactly like John Fox wants the game called, which is conservatively. I don’t think a change in OC is going to make a difference, and other than coaching Tom Brady, what has Charlie Weis done that Jeff Davidson hasn’t? No matter who the OC is, the offense will look the same.
I wish I could be optimistic that signing a stud WR isn’t going to be hard.
Most likely, the Panthers aren’t going to be big players in the DT market. They traded picks for Leonard and Tyler after all. They have Corvey Irvin coming back as well and Kemo is supposed to be back next year (assuming he doesn’t get cut). I think the Panthers will be a bigger player in the DE/backup OL market.
by bengoodfella on Dec 21, 2009 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
Charlie Weis
1st let me state that I don’t think Weis comes to Carolina. He’s going to command a ridiculously high amount as an OC, and it’s against the mold of this team to pay extremely high for a co-ordinator. That’s why we get guys from the Browns (Davidson) or castoffs from other teams (Colts- Meeks).
That being said, Weis is an amazing offensive coordinator… head coach, not so much.
Between 2000 and 2004 Weis constantly produced one of the top offenses in the NFL. He only had a 1000 yard rusher twice (Antwoin Smith- 2001, Corey Dillon-2004) and only had a 1000 yard receiver once (Troy Brown- 2002). He an offensive line so dominant that it still holds today. He’s an offensive master at taking what available and spinning it into gold. Meanwhile 50% of the time Davidson doesn’t know how to use his personnel. That’s why Weis is valuable, and that why he’ll command the big bucks.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
James I had a ridiculous dream last night
I dreamed there was a CSR convention, and I met the real James the Aussie. You were a big guy, gray hair, Australian accent (of course), and threw me in the pool. O_o How much of that is true?
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 24, 2009 2:28 AM EST up reply actions
what has Charlie Weis done that Jeff Davidson hasn’t?
How about leading the Patriots to 3 Superbowl wins? And being known around the league as an offensive genius? He is already close friends with Fox, and with Fox being on the hot seat I’m sure he’ll make an exception in the play calling.
Keeping Moore and drafting a QB in the 2nd round would barely hit the cap.
The most difficult part is the receiver… maybe a trade for JStew or DWill? It’d be worth it.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I am sure having Tom Brady helped Weis genius as well. That and the fact he worked for the best head coach in the NFL.
I wasn’t talking about keeping more and staying under the cap, I was talking about finding a “stud” WR and still dealing w/ the Peppers situation. I have a feeling they are going to try and keep Peppers around next year. I just wonder at what price….assuming there is a cap of course.
by bengoodfella on Dec 21, 2009 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
Also Mike Martz was also known as an offensive genius…and then he didn’t have Torry Holt, Isaac Bruce, Kurt Warner and Marshall Faulk and that genius went up in flames.
Either way, it’s John Fox’s offense no matter how smart Weis is there will be draws on third and long and screen passes as well.
by bengoodfella on Dec 21, 2009 10:10 PM EST up reply actions
Big difference...
Kurt Warner vs. Tom Brady: Okay, let’s assume their equal
Marshall Faulk vs. Kevin Faulk: Marshall hands down, no contest
Torry Holt vs Troy Brown: Holt hands down, no contest
Isaac Bruce vs. Deion Branch: Bruce hands down, no conest
From top to bottom at their peak Martz Rams were a VASTLY superior offense from a personnel standpoint to Weis’ Pats
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Dec 21, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
I wasn’t trying to compare the two. I was just saying personnel has a lot to do with a person being seen as a genius. I am not saying Weis was a bad coach, God knows everything written is seen as black or white. If I say I am not in favor of Charlie Weis as the OC it means I think he is the worst OC in the world and a world class incompetent.
Outside of being the offensive coordinator for Tom Brady, Charlie Weis hasn’t been an OC anywhere else, that’s all I am saying. He is better than Davidson, but I don’t think there would be a big difference in the two once John Fox got a hold of them and game planned with them.
It just absolutely irritates me when people pick the biggest or most familiar name out there (whether it be coaching, quarterback, wide receiver) and then think the Panthers should just go get them. People wanting Weis as the OC is part of that frustration.
by bengoodfella on Dec 21, 2009 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
Not quite.
Weis was the OC for the Jets between ‘97 and ’99, and his teams averaged 12th in offense over that stretch (including 5th in ’98), despite the fact that his QBs were Neil O’Donnell, Vinny Testaverde, and Ray Lucas. Curtis Martin was also injured one of those years, and their only other offensive threats were a still-developing Keyshawn Johnson (only averaged 1088 yards those three years, decent but hardly top-flite #1 wideout numbers) and Wayne Chrebet. Add that to the offensive success he had at ND in spite of the overall poor performance, and it’s clear Weis is no fluke. He knows offense.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:46 AM EST up reply actions
But the amazing part about New England was that
Other than Brady, they didn’t have a bunch of big names… yet still got it done consistently. Other than the 16-0 season, which had a lot more to do with the players, I don’t think the Pat’s offense has been better without Weis.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 21, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
Weis has coached several teams to Super Bowl championships.
Davidson has been the OC for a winning team just once (last year.)
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
I have no faith that John Fox would let Weis run the offense the way he wants to. Whatever helps the team is what I want.
by bengoodfella on Dec 21, 2009 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
Fox answers to Richardson
And if Richardson had to pay for a name like Charlie Weis, I’m sure it would be made known to Fox not to interfere. You can’t assume Weis would be treated like Davidson… the two don’t even live on the same planet.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 21, 2009 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
Actually I read Davidson and Weis are pretty close too
Not sure how that plays into all this.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 21, 2009 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
They are.
Davidson worked under Weis as a position coach on the Pats’ staff and Carolina hired him largely based on Weis’ recommendation.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
How exactly do you know how Davidson is treated?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:46 AM EST up reply actions
I never said I knew how Davidson was treated. I said I did not know if Fox would let Weis have the freedom that he wanted to be OC. That’sall. You don’t have to try and start an argument over this. Which seems to be all you really care to do.
I was making the mistake of commenting on this site. I don’t know why I keep trying to participate honestly. I just don’t know if Fox will let Weis run the offense he wants to run. I could be wrong, I was just giving my opinion based on my perception of the situation. I am sorry you didn’t like my opinion.
by bengoodfella on Dec 22, 2009 8:49 AM EST up reply actions
What?
I wasn’t even replying to a comment of yours. My response was to southtunnel, which you can easily see by clicking the up button. But sorry your spilt milk has brought tears.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 8:57 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry, I thought you replied to me. There is no spilt milk at all.
by bengoodfella on Dec 22, 2009 9:02 AM EST up reply actions
I think the general consensus is that Fox keeps Davidson conservative
The whole point of this thread is regarding that.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
I think I was trying to say what you just said. I just took longer and with more controversy.
by bengoodfella on Dec 22, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
Feeling very optimistic for 2010
If Matt Moore can continue to mature into the position, he just may be our QB of the future – the near-future anyway. He continues to look better each time out, hope to see that trend continue throughout the last 2 games.
Hurney & Fox were right on in their assessments of our O-line depth, even though I felt they made a huge mistake and allowed our O-line subs from last year to leave via free agency. They did find suitable players who could step in if the need occurred. Bernadeau and Schwartz proved they can do the job, given a chance. Impressive game from the O-line considering how highly regarded the Vikings D-line was coming into the game. The opportunity to get some experience for the subs, and then get the starters healthy bodes well for 2010.
The D-line depth problem should be taken care of for 2010. With a healthy Maake Kemoeatu and Damione Lewis and the additions of Hollis Thomas, Tank Tyler, Louis Leonard, Nick Hayden and Derek Landri, the ability for our DTs to stuff the run and keep the opposing o-lines off of our LBs should not be an issue in 2010.
Talent & depth at DE & LB should be a strong point for the defense. Think our players at these positions are as good (and we go as deep) as any team in the NFL.
The defensive secondary… what’s not to like about this group? This group has a top 5 ranking against the pass. Not to mention that they have added capable depth with Martin, Teal & Munnerlyn.
Off-season needs – Keep Fox, keep Hurney, keep Meeks, find an OC, find some depth at QB either through the draft or free agency, and find another playmaker or 2 to help out Smitty in the receiving game, sign Pep to a longterm deal.
Most of the pieces are in place, just need the final few pieces.
Just my .02
"I felt they made a huge mistake and allowed our O-line subs from last year to leave via free agency"
Are you kidding me? Bridges was the only one we reasonably could have retained. Would you have matched the starter-level contracts Buffalo and Chicago signed Hangartner and Omiyale to so they could sit on the bench?
Oh, and it’s not terribly difficult to have good numbers against the pass when teams are running the clock out on you most of the time.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
MP, bet your cup is always half empty...
What part of this statement creates conflict for you?
“Hurney & Fox were right on in their assessments of our O-line depth, even though I felt they made a huge mistake and allowed our O-line subs from last year to leave via free agency. They did find suitable players who could step in if the need occurred.”
By the way I comprehend that, I’m giving them props for making the proper decision when I originally thought they were screwing up.
I'm just wondering what the other option was, that's all.
Sorry if I misinterpreted you. But I read it as you suggesting they got lucky in getting decent results out of a bad decision.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:39 AM EST up reply actions
Not sure there was another option
My fear, coming into the season, was that if or when the injury bug went to work on our starting o-line, then we would have absolutely no experience among the o-line subs. I do agree with you, that it would have been foolish to pay starter-type money to Omiyale, Hangartner, & Bridges. The fact that those guys were proven commodities was a nice comfort for us last year. My thoughts were that losing all of those guys would put a major strain on any kind of quality depth, and for a running team, the o-line would make or break our 2009 season. Having said all of that, I think Hurney and Fox made the right call on this group. Considering the Panthers have invested two 7th round draft picks (Bernadeau & Schwartz), one 5th round pick (Robinson), one undrafted rookie free agent (Williams), and one free agent (Petitti) I think we definitely found some keepers in this group.
Bridges is the one decision I disagreed with.
Truth be told, I don’t know the exact financial details, but he was scheduled to be paid $1.5 mil or less. Maybe we couldn’t have paid the million in difference for our top OL backup, but he’s currently playing (and starting games) for a division champ in Arizona at the minimum.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 8:27 AM EST up reply actions
And with Mike Gandy now on IR...
The Cards will go into the playoffs with Jeremy Bridges as their starting LT. Pretty solid for a guy who was cut by two teams in a few months this summer.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 24, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
Keary Colbert disagrees about how well we develop rookie wideouts.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 21, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
How crazy is that
Keary Colbert and Drew Carter aren’t even in the league anymore.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 12:00 AM EST up reply actions
Injuries certainly had plenty to do with that...
But there’s no denying that Colbert had a fine rookie season when we needed it.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
True: We are very good at developing 1 out of every 4 rookie receivers, into one year wonders
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Yours just happens to be the most recent post to mention Campbell...
But YUCK! What a game tonight.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:08 AM EST up reply actions
As always James, great article. I’ll disagree with a couple of points though… Peppers is as consisently inconsistent as Delhomme… the only thing different is that Peppers isn’t throwing interception, over and under throwing his receivers, and fumling the ball on a sack… Peppers is only missing tackles, not breaking man on man coverage and just not making the effort.
Special teams sucks. Danny Crossman needs to go.
The smartest and best thing Delhomme can do at the end of the season is retire. It’s mostly HIS fault the Panthers didn’t make the playoff… the other main reason they didn’t make it is because of Jeff Davidson.
So it's better just not to try than to give it your all and have a poor half-season?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
AGREED
the coaches are who should’ve stepped up sooner. something was definitely not right, poor routes and poor decisions, those you address with more than just lame “gives us the best opportunity to win” garbage. throw a couple pick sixes, you sit to think about it a while, while someone else gets a shot to see if they can throw to his colored jerseys….
bad routes get run during games, then you are doing nothing but running routes over and over and over… until you no longer run bad routes
Matt Moore - Extremely Optimistic
I hope Matt Moore continues to start at quarterback. I’ve said from the beginning of this year (well probably since the 0-3 start) that they needed to groom Matt Moore as the next Quarterback. He’s doing awesome.
My thoughts...
I saw some mention of Charlie Weis. He wants to be a HC. Sure he’ll take an OC job. He has to. He butchered his rep as a coach at Notre Dame. If Carolina did hire him as an OC, he wouldn’t stick around very long.
I thoroughly enjoyed Sunday’s game. I’m still very concerned about Moore’s tendency to overthrow or underthrow the medium routes. That might change with more playing time, maybe not. I’m not sold on him yet. He’s had 3 years (i think?) in the system, but is pretty much a rookie in terms of playing time.
I love watching Peppers play….when he does. I fall into the camp of let him walk. His 1 out of every 4 games of domination isn’t worth the cost of keeping him. I’d rather have a player with 75% of his talent/skill who plays 110% all the time.
I thought the defense played well. Long term, i think we need an upgrade at CB.
I understand what the Rules and Regulations was saying. I think we need a FA WR. We’ve only had a couple good picks – Steve and Mushin (I’m assuming we drafted him). With a big guy 6’3ish to extend the defense, Steve coming underneath. That would create a nightmare for a secondary.
And what’s with this about wanting to ban MP? Granted, I disagree with him sometimes and he can come off as argumentative, but banning? Geez.
by The Duke Dude on Dec 22, 2009 10:50 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I could not possibly agree more with anything you have to say.
Although I do think there’s room for guys like Munnerlyn/Marshall/Wilson/the ultimate loser of the FS battle to establish themselves as solid #2CB/nickel guys.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
What’s being forgotten in the deep throws Moore made is that he did overthrow (as in throwing too high) some receivers on the medium routes. The Panthers HAVE to bring in another QB whether it be the draft or FA.
I am a little torn on the secondary battles, because I would like to see the loser of the FS battle get some reps at CB in some fashion. I want to say we don’t need another CB/S (assuming we re-sign Marshall) because we have players there already, we just have to allocate them into the best spot for their skill, whatever that may be.
This Panthers team is not in as bad shape as some people may think it is. I am pretty optimistic about the future of the team.
by bengoodfella on Dec 22, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with the notion of bringing in another QB
The next 2 games for Moore will dictate whether that QB is a 2nd or 3rd round pick or a 4th or 6th round pick.
I think we’re in very good shape, honestly. Other than WR I don’t see a dire need at any position really. Of course there are areas where we need an overall talent upgrade, but it’s not like the situation is horrible at any other position.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Dec 22, 2009 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
Base the pick on talent
If a QB that the FO has evaluated and liked as a possible “QB for the future” is available when the Panthers use their first selection, then they should not pass on that QB.
If, for example, the FO likes Pike, Clausen, Tebow & Bradford (just an example) after combines and workouts and thinks they would be the franchise type QB, then if any of those guys are available take them at the fist opportunity. However, if all those guys are gone and a WR prospect or DL prospect that is too good to pass is still there, then they should not use the pick on a QB that they’re not thrilled about and try to make him something he’s not.
I think Ryan Mallet, the sophomore QB from Arkansas is potentially a star in the NFL. If Moore, Delhomme, and (insert random FA) might be able to get them through until 2011, then waiting until the later rounds to select a QB might not be a bad thing.
True...
…I hadn’t thought about moving a FS over. And this may be my selective memory, but I haven’t been overly impressed Marshall.
by The Duke Dude on Dec 22, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
Well, he's been part of a very good overall CB unit.
We’ve been one of the best defenses in the NFL in defending wideouts (1st in the league in allowing TDs and in the top five or so in yards.)
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
I think Marshall has definitely played better this year than last year. I have no stats to support this, but it’s just from watching every game. I think we have a pretty good core of young guys in the secondary personally. If I am not wrong, Ron Meeks usually has a pretty good defense in regards to defending the pass.
by bengoodfella on Dec 22, 2009 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
He ranks #82 among CB's by ProFootballFocus
This is mostly because of penalties and run defense, not so much from a lack of coverage skills
That doesn’t look very good. I think it is interesting that Gamble is below him for this year and I feel like the pass defense has improved, but last year Gamble was #4 and Marshall was #25. Marshall hasn’t improved according to their metrics and Gamble has greatly regressed. .
by bengoodfella on Dec 22, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
Despite the fact that they're doing their job, limiting the productivity of opposing wideouts.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I don’t know how I feel about the metrics being used there. I think the pass defense has been pretty good this year compared to last year. I am going to ignore what that site ranks Marshall and say the secondary is doing a pretty good job.
by bengoodfella on Dec 22, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
The secondary IS doing a good job.
Their knock on Marshall is on his below average run defense skills, and on the penalties he’s incurred. They rank him okay on pass coverage.
Nice positive observation
I’ve been critical, and (while you certainly don’t need approving comments from me) I’d like to give one here.
Actually our friends at Football Outsiders rate us pretty high in coverage - they show the Panthers as #6 vs opponents’ #1 WR, and #6 vs their #2, and #6 vs 3rd WR’s (that’s very unusual) - our problem is vs TE’s, where we only rank #26 (see the second chart in the link below)
I don't really like their metrics.
When you go by raw stats (yardage and TDs), we’ve done a pretty good job against TEs too. Mid-pack in TDs, but 8th in yardage allowed.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
Football Outsiders' metrics explained
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/methods
While you’re looking at yardage allowed by TE’s, their rating system (DVOA) gives more importance to First Downs achieved, and there’s where we’ve fallen short of the average team’s defense vs TE’s — gaining 8 yds on 3rd and 10 is not as important to their system as gaining 6 yds on 3rd and 5.
Oh...one more thing...
Time for Jake to permanently carry the clipboard. I’d say cut him, but we owe him so much money, we might as well keep him around as a backup.
Sometimes it's best to start anew
If you were Matt Moore, having a tough time as it is showing that you should be the starter, would you want the coach’s pet constantly staring over your shoulder? The team needs a fresh start at QB, and letting Jake linger around in practice and on the sidelines could dampen this.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
I responded to essentially the same argument at the top... but here it is again
I think Delhomme is a rarified situation, however. I don’t see him as a Duante Culpepper, Jeff Garcia or Jon Kitna who believe they should be starting over the young guy.
Jake has never displayed an inherent sense of entitlement that some other vets display on the bench. I see the quinticential professional and leader, and I guy who can help ease the transition from him to a new player.
You’re right, he’s beloved by the locker room. So what causes more discord? Letting Jake ride off into the sunset by building up the new guy, or cutting him outright and letting the locker room know what vets mean to the organization.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Dec 22, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
I responded above too :)
And I’ll add… It’s not Jake’s sense of entitlement that’s the problem. It’s Fox’s sense of Jake’s entitlement, even when Jake is clearly not the guy anymore… and the pressure that brings to a new QB.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
If you're ready and good enough to be a starting QB...
You take the challenge and win the job. If you can’t, you’re not ready to be a starting QB in the NFL.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
And if you have it and throw endless amounts of turnovers you lose it, right?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
If there's anybody any better behind you.
We’ve yet to see that proven true.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
It's proven to everyone but you
Because you still have this fantasy that Jake is as good as Joe Namath, because he had 2 playoff runs.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 22, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
And you have this fantasy that Moore is better than Peyton Manning, because he had one good quarter of football.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 1:48 AM EST up reply actions
I never once compared Moore to Manning
You were the one saying Jake was as good as Namath.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 23, 2009 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
This is a guy who couldn't beat out JOSH MCCOWN!
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
Based on Fox's assessment
which i believe was based more on previous experience. He goes experience over raw talent most chance you give. Matt Moore has always looked like he had the tools to be a quality QB, just never had the confidence of Fox.
Yes, that’s why Beason, Otah, Godfrey, Stewart, Marshall, and Munnerlyn have all been given huge roles as rookies, right?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe at the time of training camp
but I think he could now, based on the performance in the Minnesota game.
Or do you think McCown has put up comparable numbers?
The best games he’s ever played that I could find were:
1) with Ariz 12/19/04 vs StL — 22 for 34, 287 yds, 2 TD, 0 INT, 110.8 QB rtg
2) with Oak 12/2/07 vs Den — 14 for 21, 141 yds, 3 TD, 0 INT, 141 QB rtg
But he’s 30 yrs old, and has a lifetime QB rtg of 71.3
http://www.nfl.com/players/joshmccown/careerstats?id=MCC600777
Again, one game does not define a skillset.
Comparing two players’ best games ever isn’t a fair comparison. Otherwise, James Harrison would be a better player than Marshall Faulk. Or do you believe that to be true because he has a better best game?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
No, just pointing out a few things.
McCown’s career QB rating of 71.3 is lower than Moore’s 76.7 — plus Moore’s 5 years younger. Did you fail to notice that I also mentioned those numbers?
Speaking of single game comps, wasn’t it you who tried to take Jake’s best game of this year (vs Atlanta) to boost his stock, compared to Moore?
During training camp, you were right, Moore didn’t “beat out McCown.” But as of now, with McCown unavailable and Moore coming off a very successful outing vs a playoff team, I don’t think you can argue with validity that McCown’s better (even if he were available.)
Why don’t you take a deep breath, give the kid his due for the good game, and express the hope that he can continue it? Because McCown’s shown nothing in his career to indicate he’s a QB of the future. If you’d try not to obstinately oppose every opinion given here, you’d get a lot more support for yours.
No, I was pointing out the ridiculousness of your claim.
You specifically said that Delhomme had at no point performed as well in a half as Moore did on Sunday. Except I pointed out an example from the last two months where he had done just that.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
We're talking about McCown vs Moore here.
Stick tom the point, if you can.
Or is it just obvious that I’ve destroyed all you had to say about Moore not “beating out” McCown?
I’ll repeat here what I said up there — pay attention now:
“Why don’t you take a deep breath, give the kid his due for the good game, and express the hope that he can continue it? Because McCown’s shown nothing in his career to indicate he’s a QB of the future. If you’d try not to obstinately oppose every opinion given here, you’d get a lot more support for yours.”
Just checking...
Did you think Delhomme had shown something in his career to indicate he was a QB of the future who’d become the best in franchise history when he signed from NO? Yeah, didn’t think so.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 1:49 AM EST up reply actions
No, I didn't...
,,, and I don’t see it in McCown, for sure.
However, I do see something in Moore that he might be, in that unpredictable future of ours.
Delhomme’s “best in franchise history” sure isn’t HOF stuff to brag about, is it? At some point, there’ll be better.
Wrong. It was because Fox knew McCown couldn't beat out Jake
Moore has done nothing but win as the starter on this team. McCown has looked horrible! That Moore would be buried in the depth chart is VERY suspicious. I suspect Fox was trying to protect HIS guy by keeping the competition favorable for Jake.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Comradery is more important to him
Plus he knows he’ll quickly get a job elsewhere.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Certainly he said that with $6.5 million to lose.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 22, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
Yes and...
Delhomme sat behind Aaron Brooks and Jeff Blake for three years at NO as the 3rd string QB.
Then...VOILA...EUREKA!
That proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, by Procton’s own line of unreasonable reasoning, that Delhomme is garbage, because he couldn’t beat those guys out on the Saints’ depth chart!
Yea, verily, forsooth, and ergo — so it is written!
If Moore stinks, Delhomme stinks.
Whew. The stench!
And then took a job later when he was a better player.
Matt Moore’s yet to beat out anybody other than Hunter Cantwell and Bret Basanez. Whoop-de-fucking-doo.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 1:49 AM EST up reply actions
He was second-string in 08
then broke his hip so we traded for a backup. And if Delhomme took a job later when he is better, why can’t the same apply to Moore?
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 23, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
He didn't break his hip.
He had a stress fracture in his leg because he was a statue in the pocket. And I’m all for Moore being given a chance to take the job next year. Everybody on this blog is advocating he be given it outright.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 23, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
For lack of a better option
Jake is not that option. And if he’s a statue, how is he so mobile now? And another fact, he fractured his hip in practice, not in game.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 24, 2009 2:26 AM EST up reply actions
Not exactly.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2008-09-03-1636074325_x.htm
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 24, 2009 9:13 AM EST up reply actions
The problem is...
Who will Moore compete against? I can’t see Delhomme starting next year. Fair or not, the first mistake that Jake makes, the fans would be ready to give him the axe. That wouldn’t be fair to place anyone in that position. I think Jake needs to sit for a year to piece his shattered confidence back together.
If they could get him for the right price, I’d love to see Carolina bring in Campbell from the Skins on a 1-2 year deal to compete against Moore. Campbell has nice wheels and a good long ball. That fits the Panthers perfectly. At worst you would have a good starter with a very serviceable backup.
Who cares about the fans?
Satisfying the fans is not the goal of a team, its players, or staff. Winning games is. If Delhomme starts at the beginning of the preseason, it’ll have been six months since he threw a ball in a game. At his age, he doesn’t have time to take a year off. And if the coaching staff determines that he’s the best option to start for the Carolina Panthers next year (as they’re collectively paid millions of years to do because of their abilities and track record), I think that’s the only way they can go.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 26, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
So you're actually advocating starting Delhomme next season?
Despite 18 INT’s in eleven games?
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 27, 2009 2:35 AM EST up reply actions
If he comes out and wins the job, absolutely.
Eleven games out of a seven-year starting run do not define a player’s competence or ability. Kurt Warner seemed to come back just fine when nobody in the league thought he had it anymore.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 27, 2009 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
good point
He would have to really step up his game though. And I don’t think at this point in his career he is capable of that.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 29, 2009 5:08 AM EST up reply actions
I think if anything this would make Moore try harder. You know Fox is just waiting to send Delhomme back in so why not try as hard as possible to prove that you’re the man for the job. I don’t believe having Delhomme around is a bad thing. And I don’t think Fox is blind to see that Moore is proving good competition for that QB position.
hahaha
our running game is over-rated??
the backup running back rushed for over 100 yards against Minnesota’s defense
HAHA!
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