Carolina Panthers’ Monday Morning Optimist- 12/14/2009
by James The Aussie on Dec 14, 2009 11:16 AM EST
81 comments
Good morning Panther faithful! Realistically, who thought we were going to beat the Patriots on Sunday? I always think the Panthers have a shot, but with a banged up o-line, a decimated D-line and a young QB it was always going to be an extremely tough game. Wes Welker demonized the Panthers' defense showing why he's one of the pre-eminent wide receivers in football; this coupled with a near 100 yard game from Kevin Faulk and the Patriots were near guaranteed a win, especially with how bad the Panthers' offense played on Sunday.
However, it wasn't all bad on Sunday. There were a few standout performances and some that were lacking. So join me when I break it all down:
After the jump...
I would be remiss if I didn't again spend time looking at the performance of Matt Moore. After all, for the majority of Panthers' fans this is the main focus during these final games down the stretch. As you may have guessed already if Moore is being mentioned here, he's not being mentioned in the rest of the article. Much like last week he turned in a run of the mill performance against the New England Patriots. Not good enough to deserve distinction, and not poor enough to garner being berated Moore had both extremely positive aspects to his game, and some worrying ones on Sunday.
The definite highlight was his 41 yard touchdown pass to Steve Smith in the first quarter. It certainly helped that Brandon Meriweather was caught in no mans land after cheating in far too much, but it was a pretty play. Sadly, there wasn't another play of note from the third year quarterback.
Early and often Moore was throwing high and away from his receivers. Though he got his arm under control midway through the second quarter he still displayed some poor decision making in his throws. There were four passes that should have been intercepted by the Patriots secondary after hitting them in the hands and being dropped. Moore had 9 lives on Sunday, and used up 8 of them.
Now that we have two games to analyze I think I've come to a fairly good conclusion of how Matt Moore plays as a QB. He isn't playing to win games; he's playing not to lose them. This isn't inherently a bad thing, but it's a little disheartening. For all Jake Delhomme's faults (of which there were many) he could never be accused of not doing everything in his power to try and win the football game. This oftentimes led to horrible throws, bad decisions, and numerous interceptions. Moore on the other hand seems too nervous to take a shot, or try and make a big play. Ultimately this gives him a pretty QB rating (82.2) but it won't necessarily result in wins.
What I'm talking about is this: of Moore's 30 attempts on Sunday he only targeted a wide receiver 12 times. The rest of the time he threw short passes to tight ends, or checked down to a running back. This is not how you play quarterback in the NFL. We do not have an Antonio Gates or Jason Witten on roster, and our running backs are not pass catching threats the caliber of a Ray Rice or LaDanian Tomlinson. Moore needs to put more faith in his wide receivers; particularly Steve Smith who he only threw to 5 times on Sunday. As it stands now, Moore is getting flustered in the pocket far too quickly and making the throw that is tantamount to giving up on the play; going to a check down too quickly. This may make your stats look good on a superficial level, but you don't put a drive together with these throws.
The other role that speaks to a QB's ability is a leadership one. Moore does not yet have the ability to read opposing defenses, call effective audibles or identify blitzing players. Of course it isn't all on Matt Moore, and somewhat expected with a young player; however, with Jake Delhomme at QB the Panthers averaged 151.3 rushing yards per game. With Matt Moore under center the Panthers are averaging 141.5. While that might not seem like a lot of a drop off, the last two games have been against quite poor run defenses. The team simply doesn't look as dynamic on offense with Moore taking the snaps.
The reason for these shortcomings could be myriad, but I think a strong case could be made for fear of reprisal by the fanbase. Moore saw how Jake was dragged over the coals for his poor performance and may want to avoid the same fate. This isn't the time to play it safe though. Much like Moore's QB play over the last two weeks he needs to play to win the starting QB job, not play to simply keep it. I know we've become accustomed to horrible play at the quarterback position in 2009, but I think some are overrating Moore's performance because they're comparing him to Jake Delhomme alone. I see Moore as a long time backup for this franchise in the mold of a Jim Sorgi or Charlie Batch who will always be ready to step in when needed and who can manage a game. I do not see him as a future answer at the position, or a long term solution.
That being said, I wholly believe Moore needs to remain the QB for the rest of the season. There is no reason to put Jake Delhomme back in for the final games unless he's planning to retire and these games can be his swansong. Moore should play out the season and we'll see if there's been any growth. I think it's improbable that he'll become a different QB, but crazier things have happened.
OPTIMISTIC
DeAngelo Williams- Extremely Optimistic: D-Will proved why he's one of the best RB's in the league. Sure he only had 82 yards on the day, but he ran at a pace of 6.3 ypc. The only question is ‘Why didn't get get more carries?' Williams was the only Panther who consistently moved the chains.
Chris Harris- Extremely Optimistic: CSR's own Chris Harris played a great game on Sunday. 6 tackles, 1 FF- he was a leader and a performer on defense. Great game.
Chris Gamble- Extremely Optimistic: Gamble did an excellent job covering Randy Moss and limiting him to 1 reception. Couple this with an INT and he deserves kudos.
Ron Meeks- Somewhat Optimistic: Meeks drew up another great defense Sunday that kept the Patriots below their season averages. The defense were on the field for 34:15, which is entirely too long. The offense couldn't stay on the field.
PESSIMISTIC
Offensive Line- Extremely Pessimistic: The line is still a major concern. The decision to give Jordan Gross that giant contract extension is being justified each week.
Gary Barnidge- Somewhat Pessimistic: C'mon Barnidge. Why did you drop to your knees 2 yard before that 1st down? That's about the only bad thing I can say, but it was a bad football move.
Everette Brown- Somewhat Pessimistic: You picked a bad play to have a bad play, Everette. The roughing the punter penalty sealed the Panthers' fate... it was a bad rookie mistake.
Overall Analysis
The Panthers are now 5-8, and we're playing to see what the future holds. There are some good aspects that a losing season brings. It lets the coaching staff take some risks with the roster that they normally wouldn't, which ultimately puts you in better stead for the future and understanding your talent. The downside is, however, you're losing and the fan base may grow apathetic.
We have Minnesota on Sunday night in what looks to be another extremely tough game. Knowing the Panthers proclivity to look horrible on national games it doesn't bode well for this week.
45% Optimistic about the future as we face the Minnesota Vikings
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Wonderful analysis of Moore
I couldn’t agree anymore. I feel that he is trying not to lose in the games and it makes for mediocre offense. Let’s add the fact of a lack of support on the wide receivers (minus Steve Smith), and it all makes for hightened pressure on the defense.
Therefore, based on your analysis, it appears that if the Panthers want to make it to the playoffs next years, they must begin retooling their offense. They need a franchise quarterback (and not the discount special trying to reemerge their career), new wide receivers, and enough money in the cap (pending CBA) to create depth and competition.
It's a delicate situation.
We need to make a play while Smitty can still play at a high level, and before eventual contractual issues carrying two #1 RB’s will likely occur.
For my money if the Panthers sign Jason Campbell to take over the QB position, and draft a WR with the 2nd rounder this team turns the corner… and fast.
With Jordan Gross back, added depth on the D-line from this carousel, Thomas Jones back and Moose moving to #3 where he should be this team becomes very dangerous. We’ll see what happens.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 14, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
FAIL
Thomas Jones = Thomas Davis
That’s what I get for talking to a Jets fan at work while writing my comment.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 14, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
It is delicate due to a key player
Jake.
We have been fortunate enough to be playing with the house’s money on him. I feel the surgery added to his inability to keep up with the game. The wide receiving core is in essence one player. Moose needs to be cut loose. Thanks for the years amigo (sincerely).
We have to have that dynamic hybrid player between a tight end and wide receiver. One that can sit down in coverage, or create nightmare matchups with their linebackers. I am not sure we have that.
You hit it on the nose
Although I don,t remember Thomas Jones am I missing something? Do you actually believe we could sign Campbell? To me the problem yesterday was poor play calling that didn’t confuse anyone and the lack of one on one with Welker. He just looked like a ghost out there, no one seemed to see him run right by them. Moore didn’t do as well as I had hoped for him, but the O line didn’t help him at all just like last week. I know that Everret Brown would have liked to crawl into a hole. I bet he learned alot on that mistake. I don’t mind a person making a mistake as long as he learns from it and does not do it again. The only problem with that mistake is that it was a game changer. I am beginning to believe there is something to the rumors about New England and the officials, there was some bad looking calls made against us. i am not going to rewrite this you corrected the Davis thing.
Welker wasn't particularly great.
It was just that, as usual, we got no pressure on the QB whatsoever. A QB like Brady will find a WR like Welker eventually if there’s nobody in his face or putting him on his back. Oh, and Brown’s penalty didn’t change the game. Did you really think we were going to drive 90 yards?
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 14, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
We did need to get pressure, however
our D-line is banged up, their O-line is fairly good, and they had the refs on their side. I’m sure after all the flags on offense it was in the back of the defense’s mind that they can’t hit Brady too hard. Coaches should have blitzed Harris a few more times, it worked well the last time.
I’d also like to add driving 80-90 yards down by seven is much different situation than going 70-80 down by ten. The former you still have a chance, the latter there is almost no hope.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 15, 2009 3:20 AM EST up reply actions
You'd have a point...
if it hadn’t been happening all season. We’ve got a guy paid nearly $20 million to get pressure on the QB, and more often than not, he sits there at the line playing patty-cake (see the play on Sunday where he was single-blocked by not one, but TWO different TEs in the same "pass rush.)
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 15, 2009 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
+1 on this approach
There is a window of opportunity here but in order to capitalize I think you need to look to sign a veteran free agent QB. Ideally we can develop a young QB in the interim. I really hope we stay with Moore the rest of the season just to give him a fair chance to work out the jitters and loosen up a bit. I think its understandable he’s come out tight in these first two starts.
I would also add...
that if we use that 2nd rounder on a WR hopefully they can find one that also can return kicks. The Panthers don’t seem to get too many short field opportunities unless its created by a turnover. A bonafide return threat is an asset that seems to be lacking right now.
Yes, Jason Campbell's certainly the man to do the job.
You can tell the way he’s done so well as the QB of a team willing to spend anything to win. And yeah, most rookie wideouts make a huge inital impact.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 14, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
Bottom line is it's a difficult situation and there's no perfect options, but...
IMO Campbell actually would be a better fit with the Panthers verticle passing game than the Redskins West Coast offense. I like Campbell alot, he’s got a big league arm, is strong in the pocket and can run when need be. My main concern would be he has a history of fumbling.
…As far as rookie wideouts go, sure most don’t make a huge initial impact, but in recent years there have been some rookie wideouts who have made significant impact ie: Colston, Jackson, Maclin.
The Redskins spending has nothing to do with Campbell's success (or lack thereof)
There is spending, then there is spending wisely.
The Redskins have no recievers of note, unless you were living in 2002. Santana Moss and Randle-El are both past their primes, and a decimated O-line yet he’s still having a very good season.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 14, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
They spent high draft picks on Davis, Thomas, and Kelly.
You just don’t flop that bad if you have a decent QB who can get them the ball.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 14, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know if I'd trust the Redskins scouts to evaluate draft talent too much.
Since 2002 I only see 5 picks in any round that have done anything in the NFL:
- Sean Taylor
- Chris Cooley
- Jason Campbell
- LaRon Landry
- Brian Orakpo
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 14, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
I'd have a few disagreements.
Chris Horton (7, 2008) has been an above-average safety.
Rocky McIntosh has been an ok starter (although that’s weak for a high second-rounder.)
Anthony Montgomery (5, 2007) was a good starter for a year at an unheralded position (DT.)
Reed Doughty (6, 2006) has been good when he’s had an opportunity.
Kedric Golston (6, 2006) was a good starter for a year.
Carlos Rogers is good when he’s healthy.
Derrick Dockery (3, 2003) has been a starter his whole career.
Ladell Betts and Rock Cartwright (2/7, 2002) have been quality backups and special teamers. At times, Betts has outplayed Clinton Portis in Washington.
Robert Royal (5, 2002) has been a starter his whole career for one team or another.
It strikes me you’re expecting home runs from every pick. That simply doesn’t happen, and if a team can get players who can just stick on the roster out of their late-round picks, they’ve done well. It doesn’t help that the Redskins always have high-priced vets keeping opportunity away from young guys unless injuries strike.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 15, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
I’m beginning to think that the mistake of the season was placing Josh McCown on IR. He’s not a spectacular QB by any means, but he’s solid and he has the veteran experience to key up those blocks on the linebackers that Moore is unable to.
In fact, if the Panthers can’t get a Jason Campbell or comparable QB in FA, I’d be all for re-signing McMcown as a stopgap while we groom our QB of the future.
I’d would’ve like to see him play, but I think the biggest mistake was moving Wharton to LT. By moving him it’s like losing two starters instead of just the one, not to mention the loss of chemistry on the O-Line. Wharton is a better LG and LT then Mackenzy Bernadeau, but no one on the team is as good as Gross at LT. So why the shuffle just let Bernadeau take the licks at LT and keep the interior of the line in tact?
by bleed_in_blue on Dec 14, 2009 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
Because Bernardeau has never practiced at all as an OT?
He’s worked at OG and C here, that’s it.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 14, 2009 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
Jordan Gross
with Jake Delhomme at QB the Panthers averaged 151.3 rushing yards per game. With Matt Moore under center the Panthers are averaging 141.5. While that might not seem like a lot of a drop off, the last two games have been against quite poor run defenses. The team simply doesn’t look as dynamic on offense with Moore taking the snaps.
Any difference in the run game should be more accurately attributed to the absence of Jordan Gross than anything Moore could possibly be doing differently (but considering Moore has only played two games he hasn’t had enough snaps to make a fair comparison – the difference of on average of 10 yards a game is marginal – a 180 yard game next week would put the average with Moore under center greater than Jake’s 151),.
Furthermore, the play calling has been atrocious the last two games, and yesterday in particular whoever was calling the plays should have DOUBLED the amount of rushing attempts for both Williams and Stewart. That is simply not Moore’s fault.
I feel like many on this site (yesterday during the game thread and in your optimist piece today) are being overly critical of Matt Moore. The inadequacies of the offense should be blamed on the coaching staff. I’m leaning toward Davidson being the culprit, however, the buck stops with the head coach. SO if Davidson won’t or can’t call the right plays then Fox needs to step in make certain that things are done correctly.
The injury to Gross occured on the Nov. 15th gave vs. Atlanta
Nov. 19th: 182 rushing yards vs. Miami
Of course losing Gross is a factor, but the above proves that it’s not the only factor. Furthermore, I also said it certaintly wasn’t all on Moore, or unexpected by a young QB.
As for being overly critical of Moore… I just don’t see it. I think we should all apply the same methodology of criticism on Matt Moore as we did on Jake Delhomme. Case in point, look at NFL.com.
Granted, this doesn’t represent the whole fanbase but let’s compare two performances in isolation:
Jake Delhomme-Week 2 vs. Atlanta: 25/41, 308 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 82.45 rating (Performance rated 3 stars out of 5 by fans on NFL.com)
Matt Moore-Week 13 vs. Tampa Bay: 16/21, 161 yards, 1 INT, 72.32 rating (Performace rated 4 stars out of 5 by fans on NFL.com)
If anything, fans are being overly generous to Matt Moore simply because he’s not Jake Delhomme. If you look at both QBs objectively I think it’s clear Moore has been decent, but not amazing. I’m just not sold that he is a long term answer for this team, but am definitely willing to see him play out the season.
I understand the play calling is atrocious, but Delhomme had that same atrocious playcalling to contend with. I’m sure everyone would agree it wasn’t Jeff Davidson who made Jake throw all those picks… and if you agree with that statement then in turn you have to agree that Jeff Davidson didn’t force Moore to hit the Patriots secondary 4 times in their hands and go to checkdowns either.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 14, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
But we were talking about the run game ypg difference, and the playcalling the last two weeks has been run defficient.
and if you agree with that statement then in turn you have to agree that Jeff Davidson didn’t force Moore to hit the Patriots secondary 4 times in their hands and go to checkdowns either.
Moore did get lucky with those dropped INTs, but Jakes INT numbers don’t show drops either. Additionally, throwing to the checkdowns is a good play when nothing is open. Checkdowns are preferred to INTs are they not?
Jake Delhomme-Week 2 vs. Atlanta: 25/41, 308 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 82.45 rating (Performance rated 3 stars out of 5 by fans on NFL.com)
Matt Moore-Week 13 vs. Tampa Bay: 16/21, 161 yards, 1 INT, 72.32 rating (Performace rated 4 stars out of 5 by fans on NFL.com)
Context is crucial here. Moore’s start vs TB was his first in years. Jake’s start vs ATL was one week after committing 6 turnovers in week one and only two games removed from the playoff debacle vs ARI. No surprise that the QB performance in the week 2 loss was rated lower by fans than the week 13 win.
If anything, fans are being overly generous to Matt Moore simply because he’s not Jake Delhomme.
As a whole, yes, most fans probably are. But some of the more die hard Jake supporters on CSR are being overly critical because Moore is not Jake. Moore is their “rebound” guy so to speak. They’re not quite over Jake yet, so anybody else is just playing in his shadow and will ultimately catch the wrath of their ire.
If you look at both QBs objectively I think it’s clear Moore has been decent, but not amazing. I’m just not sold that he is a long term answer for this team, but am definitely willing to see him play out the season.
Totally agree. I’m not sold on Moore as the long term answer by any means. But i think he has shown some nice potential and definitely needs more reps. I absolutely think he is an upgrade over 2009 Delhomme. Ultimately, if he performs at the same level and/or higher for the remaining three weeks, then i would feel comfortable moving forward with Moore and Delhomme while the new QB of the future is groomed? Pike? Cantworth? Any other ideas of QBs coming out of college or potentially other young QB’s in general?
Here's what I think about the future QB position...
I’m fully aboard the Jason Campbell bandwagon. I think he’s everything we’re looking for and everything we were hoping for when we signed David Carr.
If we’re not able to get Campbell here’s who I like:
Early round (2-4): Tony Pike, Tim Hiller, Jevan Snead- in that order
Late round (5-7): Max Hall, Pat Devlin- in that order
Pike seems to be the perfect fit for the Panthers and looks like he’ll be the 5th or 6th QB selected if it goes the way most pundits are predicting (Clausen, Locker, Bradford, Tebow, McCoy)
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 14, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
Jason Campbell, huh?
I guess he’s really sold a lot of people due to his play of late, but I don’t know if he is quite the answer. I’m not totally convinced going after any of the upcoming free agent quarterbacks would be a good idea either. When the offseason comes, I’m wondering how management is going to handle the Pepper’s situation. There are some good wide receivers heading into free agency, but (like Campbell) might not make it there if their current teams offer them an extension.
by SmithnCompany on Dec 14, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
Mark my words
If the Redskins try to offer Campbell an extension he will decline. If they franchise him (with the recent deals for Rivers and Manning) they’d be looking at playing him in excess of $20 million for the season.
Jason Campbell has played well the last 3 seasons and every season there’s a ‘QB controversy in Washington’. Last year it culminated with them trying to get Cassell, then Cutler, then Sanchez. Campbell demanded a trade, then dropped the dicussion when the season started. I don’t think he wants to be a part of the 3 ring circus anymore.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 14, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
Atthe beginning of the year I would say "you're smoking opium"
But I think that would be an immediate and strongly positive move.
The biggest concern is what to do about Jake and his contract.
Also, would he settle being Campbell’s backup? I think jake would be perfect in that role. the question is would he?
I think he would
Jake is a compeditor, but he’s also a stand up guy. I think, ultimately, he would accept whatever role the team dictates.
Delhomme’s not hurting for money. Aside from football he’s making millions off his horse farm. I think if the Panthers paid him one more season then asked him to restructure I think he’d do it.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 14, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
"making millions off his horse farm"??
Have you anything to substantiate that? The costs of breeding and raising thoroughbred horses is a constant fixed expense, and the returns are variable, to say the least. I’d more likely call that undertaking a labor of love.
Now that doesn’t contradict your statement that he’s not hurting for money. Just an aside.
Actually, there is a lot of money to be made in boarding other people's horses.
I’m not familiar with the specifics of Jake’s horse farm operation. But like most businesses, if run correctly, a horse farm could be very profitable.
The had a feature before one of the Panthers' games a while back
It was a little piece about what they do then the V.O said “The Delhomme stables is one of the most profitable stables in America”
they then cut to Jake who said: “That’s not why we do it, it’s a labor of love”
The Delhomme family got into horses with Jake’s grandfather. They’re pretty well established. I don’t have much more other than that.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 14, 2009 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
Gotcha
My error if assuming being one of the ‘most profitable stables’ equated with millions of dollars.
I’m a city boy from Sydney… I know little of horses.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 15, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
Quite a bit more..
“Millions” is descriptive of a single horses value to some.
The most I’ve ever personally witnessed a horse go for was 3.2, but on average, around 500k.
Of course, those were bred to be race horses. Like I said below, I have no idea what Jake’s family does.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
Hmm... from my experience..
It’s a prime example of “It takes money to make money.”
I don’t know what Delhomme & fam. specialize in but I trained race horses for a good 8 years and have worked on a good many farms. Breeding, boarding, breaking, and training can be very profitable. From a racing perspective, it’s very important to be diverse. Most race horses will not pay for themselves in the long run. It’s the boarding and training of other peoples horses as well as breeding and selling that keep a farm afloat.
It also helps if a farm trains different disciplines as it provides a wider variety of horses to board.
If someone (such as a pro football player) has a lot of money to commit to a farm, it can do wonders. I could easily see Delhomme retiring to his farm and never having to worry (as I’m sure he is accustomed to). Meanwhile, Average Joe will more often than not struggle to stay afloat even in many of the places dubbed “horse country” without an excellent financial plan and good workers (often times both are hard to come by, it’s extremely easy for a farm to become one dimensional and fail).
Despite what Delhomme’s family does with their farm, I’m sure it’s working for them.
Helpful reminder for James at seasons end: 2nd Rnd CSR Fan Draft Pick.
I hope you're right
Because with his athleticism (sp?) and arm, he could fit into Carolina’s offense run first offense quite well. However, when I brought up Peppers in my previous comment, I was trying to say that he will likely have to go in order for Hurney (or whoever is the GM at that time) to have even a shot at getting Campbell. Now if that is either through a release or by a trade, I have no idea. I do think the safer bet would be to just let him go, especially if the GM at that time thinks he’s not worth the risk of franchising again.
But here’s another situation I think the Panther’s need to address, which has becoming glaring over the last few seasons. Second wide receiver has been a HUGE problem for awhile it seems. Yes, Moose had a nice season last year but the guy is more of a #3 option at this point of his career (like you said). Thats why if I had to pick one (doubt management can cure both), I would like to upgrade the receiving corps before throwing more money at the quarterback position. Even if Matt Moore isn’t the long term answer in Charlotte, I do feel he can be a short term fix for a team who’s window of opportunity is getting smaller as time goes by.
by SmithnCompany on Dec 14, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
I'm thinking Pep walks
I’ll go bezerk if they franchise him…that is just nuts and I still think there is no way he signs long-term here. He wants to leave and I can’t imagine anything has happened this season to change that.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
let him go
we all know what he can do- but watching that match it looked as if he made a poor effort no pressure at all charles johnson looked like the panthers best d- lineman
by jojoisthemann on Dec 14, 2009 6:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
Because unlike this past offseason, I think the front office will feel more comfortable letting him walk now that they have two legit starters in Brown and Johnson.
by SmithnCompany on Dec 14, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't suggest Brown is a legit starter at all.
He’s still too small to hold up against the run on a three-down basis, and stuffing the run isn’t exactly Johnson’s strength, either. If they were able to resign Brayton, though (and he certainly seemed to indicate he’d like to be back), they should feel more than comfortable in letting Peppers go.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 15, 2009 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
reconsidered..
it still seems like a massive waste to let a player of his ability go without something in return.. especailly since we have no high picks this year
by jojoisthemann on Dec 16, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
Context is irrelevant.
When you’re a starter, you’re evaluated as a starter.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 14, 2009 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
My only fear
…of a new OC – is how much would that set us behind next year, trying to learn a new playbook?
Respectfully, we are already behind
Therefore, with a new coach, they can decide how best to retool the offense.
This was probably the most disappointed I have been with this team all year. I literally felt like just abandoning this team after this loss. Had it been a blowout, this wouldn’t be so bothersome to me. But as with the Carolina Hurricanes as of late, this team was in it all the way into the 4th quarter. Losing in that kind of fashion to an overrated, blowhard team in the patriots just makes it worse.
They had a chance to win this one. They got three turnovers and didn’t turn it over themselves (I believe), which means the defense did its job terrifically. But this offense is so damned frustrating to watch. I have finally lost my patience with this team. I was honestly looking forward to next week’s primetime game, but now all it is going to be is a match between a terrific team and a bs team; and another excuse for espn and peter king to make light of our troubles. We will not win anymore games this season and we will not have anything to show for it when the draft rolls around. I haven’t felt this deflated about a loss since the PO loss to the cards.
I have given up on them, and the rest of this year.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
I applaud you...
For still having hope as of two days ago. As long as Jeff Davidson is calling the plays, this offense will continue to struggle. DeAngelo was just gashing the patriot’s defense every other time he touched it…but he can only get what 13 carries? Just horrendous. Its the same every week:
We start fast and get a touchdown or 10 point lead, and then we sit on it like we’ve won already. There is a good 70/30 mix of run/pass in the first drive or two…and then we go to pass pass pass for much of the 2nd and early 3rd quarter. By then we have lost our pretty little pet (the lead), so its time to go back to what kinda works…and run the ball 70/30 again.
At that point it is too late…well 8 times out of 13 it is too late. I like Fox and his conservative approach most of the time, and really guys, it works, most of the time. But JD just says “F it” we’re going into the spread b/c I’m an innovator.
Its one thing to pass the ball effectively. If we could do that I wouldn’t give a whoot how we move the ball. For some reason recent Panther teams have been stuck in the early 80’s in terms of a passing attack. Everything is down-field…low percentage heaves that often turn into interceptions. The first part of the equation is getting the ball into the receiver’s hands. Hoody and Welker know this…and use it to perfection. The easy throws that Brady made to Welker all day are what we need to be feeding Steve Smith. Even Matt Moore or Jake Delhomme is capable of shooting their pop-guns 5-10 yards to Steve on a drag or cross or slant. Its getting to be a tiring, predictable experience on Sundays.
The easy throws that Brady made to Welker all day are what we need to be feeding Steve Smith. Even Matt Moore or Jake Delhomme is capable of shooting their pop-guns 5-10 yards to Steve on a drag or cross or slant. Its getting to be a tiring, predictable e
You’ve hit it on the head there, my friend.
And it strikes at our problems on BOTH sides of the ball.
First, it touches on the halftime adjustments other teams make against us, after we’ve shown our tendencies on defense during the first half — They went to Welker repeatedly in the second half because they knew they could — and we complicated it because we can’t make any adjustments on our own (similar to how Larry Fitz killed us repeatedly in last year’s playoff game.) Is there anybody here that would’ve switched defensive alignments by the time Welker had caught his 4th ball on the same pattern?? But rather than bumping him off his timing at the line, we continued to let him run free and find his soft spot in our zone. I’m sick of it.
Second, on the offensive side of the line, we again refuse to alter our own game plan. It always works well in the first quarter (how many times have the Panthers taken a 7 point lead?) But then, after the opponent makes adjustments to stall us out on subsequent drives, Davidson butts his head against the wall, and doesn’t make his own realignments or innovative counter-measures. I’ve always thought our receivers weren’t built for the deep passes we keep throwing, but could be used effectively (especially Jarrett, Moore, Williams, Rosario, Barnidge) if we used them on the very plays that Welker killed us on. Drags, crosses, slants, indeed. Low %, move the chains types of throws that frustrate a pass rush with their quick releases.
Ah well, this is all a waste to discuss, because it’ll never change unless we have a total change of strategy. I don’t know if it’s a personnel thing so much as a coaching philosophy thing.
I’m just frustrated. Sorry.
You're kidding, right?
Wes Welker is an effective short-area receiver because he has ridiculous speed and agility. None fo the players you listed have anything close to that.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 14, 2009 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
You're kidding, right?
Welker has nothing close to speed, much less ridiculous speed.
His value is in finding the open void in a zone, catching a well-thrown ball from his QB, and gaining YAC because he’s catching it in stride.
Our guys could do the same if the plays were called for them to do it — and if we had a QB who could hit them in stride, of course.
But my point, predictably ignored by you, was the lack of adjustments by our coaches, to what’s working in a game — both against us, and what could work for us.
Steve Smith should be used out of the slot like Wes Welker
Unfortunately for that to work you need another receiving threat. Which we are lacking.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 14, 2009 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
a match between a terrific team and a bs team
That’s a bit harsh, calling the Vikings a bs team lol.
The Panthers have been to a Superbowl, been 1-15, and most places in between, that’s the nature of the game and why you have to be a fan though good times and bad.
by PantherPaddy on Dec 14, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not saying that from my point of view. But we all know that everyone in the media will be writing this off as a garbage game on national TV. Nothing would please me more than to surprise the vikings, but there is little to no chance of that occurring.
Everyone on espn, nbc, cbs, fox, everyone will talk about how easy this will be for the vikes, and how awful the Panthers are. I hate hearing it all of the time, but the fact is we haven’t done anything to change that image.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
I'd say we have NO chance against the Vikings next Sunday...
…but for the strange fact that the absolutely best bet to ever make on an NFL game is to take the heavy home team underdog on an evening game. Witness Cleveland beating the Steelers Thursday night, 12/10. Nobody could expect that to happen.
I know Ivan...
…I feel your pain. Two of the last three games I attended were the Cards playoff loss, and the shitty Bills game this season…tickets, gas, hotel, my time, disappointed kids, not to mention the cost of foam fingers and beers.
But like many on here, I believe that with a few changes and additions, there’s a very good Panthers team waiting to emerge.
I’m not an expert commentator, so I don’t know if ‘changes’ means Cowher, Vick, Campbell, HC, OC, WR etc etc, but you will see plenty of ideas and exchanges on these chat room threads.
I still believe we can pull off an unlikely win or two over the last three games.
by PantherPaddy on Dec 15, 2009 9:15 AM EST up reply actions
This season is a wash
it happens, teams need to rebuild, start over, develop new schemes, etc. Just hope that you can play spoiler to some teams getting closer to the playoffs.
As a Vikings fan, I won’t wish you luck on the next game, but keep your heads up. In 2006 we went 6-0 and MISSED THE PLAYOFFS. We got Childress, and up until this year I think everyone was out for his head and wasn’t happy. But now looking back, he built some serious talent through the draft and made a huge trade that as put our team over the top to a serious contender. This is the first time I’ve been able to say I’m glad we have Childress.
It’s going to be rough, but hang in there. You’ll get a new coach, new QB, draft some young talent on defense, and you’ll be right back in it in a couple years.
We have plenty of young talent on defense; what we need is young talent on offense. Not only at the QB position, but also at WR, where we’ve tried and repeatedly failed to find a compliment to Steve Smith in the draft. A pure LT to back up Jordan Gross would be handy too.
by SlayerGhaleon on Dec 14, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
"A couple years"
If this team has to wait a couple years to be relevant again, we have alot more serious issues than I thought. This team isn’t a rebuilding project IMO
You've been pretty competitive
for the last 10 years pretty much. You’ve been favorites to win superbowls quite a few seasons as well. The cycles in the NFL are short. You may think you’re just a few pieces away, but in reality those pieces (LT, QB, WR) are HUGE pieces that can’t always be solved in a single offseason.
You’ve tried to build them through the draft which is totally the approach you should take, but it looks like that hasn’t worked as of late, especially at the WR position. So when you get a new coach and staff in there to run a new draft approach, you techinically will be rebuilding, you just won’t be as far off as teams like KC, Detroit, and St. Louis.
We need an LT?
Last I checked, we have an All-Pro suiting up there when he’s healthy.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 15, 2009 7:22 PM EST up reply actions
QB and WR
Aren’t as important for us as other teams. Delhomme had his worst statistical year (before this year) when he took us to the Super Bowl. We don’t need a great QB to win. You could argue we aren’t deep at WR (and we aren’t) but we are a running team with Steve Smith at WR. I don’t think that makes us a rebuilding team.
And yeah, I’m not sure where you got LT from. Sure, when our Pro-Bowl LT is out then yeah we are in trouble.
o-line
put duke robinson in ahead of bernadeau
?
i dont know- he was meant to be the top guard in the draft by many analysts and expected to go in the 2nd round- bargain at 5, from what ive heard- not a great deal of news here across the atlantic but seemed that he looked great- successor to keydrick vincent— that would make me assume that he is better than mackenzy bernadeau
by jojoisthemann on Dec 14, 2009 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
He was always a project.
Poor conditioning, and not overly intelligent. Add that to the fact that he had to learn to play on the inside (having spent most of his college career at OT), and he was never going to be ready this year. Bernardeau has a year in the system and the staff has been very happy and impressed with the system.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 14, 2009 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
Why?
Bernardeau’s done a fine job.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 14, 2009 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
fair point
only full game ive got to watch was the miami one and he missed a few blocks.. still was his first game
by jojoisthemann on Dec 16, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
WRs
Smith gets double covered so much that if we had another decent reciever who could do ANYTHING in terms of gettin open, moose is clearly at the end- there is the upside of his blocking but teams just stack the box so that becomes irrelevant- jarret cant get open really but i think hes gettin better- tremendous hands, i saw charly martin got a catch- whats he like? and kenny moore?
also, forgot to ask if dexter jackson on the practise squad is any good im most likely clutching at straws here
by jojoisthemann on Dec 14, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions
Absolutely.
God knows those small-school players are always studs.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 14, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
CHILL WITH THE SARCASM
You can make your point without it.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Dec 15, 2009 3:28 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry, but you don't define or dictate how I do or don't make my point.
Thanks for the yelling, though.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 15, 2009 7:22 PM EST up reply actions
I'm uncertain anyone has ever taken to the internet to advocate for/defend my ability.
But yeah, I’m pretty damned good.
Overheard in press box, from local reporter: 'If this Moore kid was any good, they'd be up 31-0 right now.'
--Darin Gantt, on CAR@NE
by MichaelProcton on Dec 15, 2009 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
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